Hackers, Spelling, and Grammar? 2360
Strom Carlson asks: "Over the last few years, I've noticed that a surprisingly large number of native English speakers, who are otherwise very technically competent, seem to lack strong English skills. Mostly, this seems to manifest itself as varying degrees of poor spelling and grammar: 'definately' instead of 'definitely'; 'should of' instead of 'should have'; and I even see the names of products and companies misspelled from time to time. It baffles me that a culture so obsessed with technical knowledge and accuracy can demonstrate such little attention to detail when it comes to communicating that knowledge with others, and it baffles me even more that many people become enraged when you attempt to help them correct and learn from their mistakes. Do hackers and geeks just not care about communicating effectively? Do they not realize that a mediocre command of written English makes them appear less intelligent? Am I missing something here?"
Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:5, Interesting)
Can...open...worms... everywhere.
I for one cannot agree with you enough here, Strom. Sadly, the epidemic of poor spelling/grammar is not confined to the tech world, but is pervasive throughout just about every aspect of American culture. I was raised and educated to believe that spelling and grammar counted...that the coherent presentation of your information was at least as important as the information itself. I don't know exactly when we as a society decided that coherence was no longer important...sometime in the mid-eighties, I'd guess.
I will agree with you, however, that this problem is especially apparent in the tech world. I've known many techs that not only didn't care about the rules of the English language, they actually regarded their ignorance of such rules as a perverse badge of honor, as if mastering the intricacies of the language was somehow beneath them. I've always found it intriguing that a programmer who could master several arcane computer languages (especially since computers are notably intolerant of errors), could fail so utterly to master his own native human language.
Programming and human language (Score:5, Interesting)
Technical precision requirement on programming language and human language is very different, for I am (and maybe many others are) extremely lazy and just want to get things done with as little effort as possible.
So if "return true;" works but not "ret tru", then I'm forced to use "return true;" every time.
However, if "alot" works as good as "a lot", I can use whatever comes to up mind at time of typing. When I was in highschool, few of us liked to say "os cof" in place of "of course" and it didn't affect our communication at all.
I think the main difference between a native English speaker and a foreign English user is the former heard a word before he learnt to write it, while the latter tends to learn to write and speak at the same time.
I'm shocked to see natives using "its good", "don't go their", these are mistakes that no foreigners will make.
I'm not sure why this has anything to do with hackers or geeks specificially. Racers, police and builders are all technically competent yet they can still make these kind of mistakes.
German (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm German, you insensitive cold!
native speakers? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
Me personally? I never could spell, and with spellcheck it's just getting worse...
Sayeth an expert --- (Score:3, Interesting)
-- Andrew Jackson
Here [quotemountain.com]
Correct English? (Score:4, Interesting)
What is this 'correct English' of which you speak? Can you send me a copy of the official English language handbook? No. Hrm. Well maybe you could direct me to the official governing body of the English language. You mean, French has one and English doesn't?
Bugger!
Then, how do we know what correct English is? You mean, 'correct' English is by definition 'common' English?! No! But then what will all those semi-intelligent pedants who haven't caught on to the fact that 'should have' is no more meaningful than 'should of', but that 'should of' is much more common in spoken English do? Who knows!
All I can say is that having worked in the publishing industry, you could tell the people who had little intelligence but a lot to prove by how frequently and strongly they misunderstood the fact that there is no 'correct' English, and jumped down the throats of those they perceived to not have as good a grasp on this 'correct' English as they did.
+Pete
could it be..., the schools? (Score:4, Interesting)
I consider myself an excellent speller with a firm grasp of the English language, its syntax, and semantics. And I consider myself to be high on the scale of technical savvy. But I've met more brilliant people in 21 years in this industry who couldn't spell a lick. I don't know if it's lack of care, or just plain inability to spell.
A peer who collaborated with me on one of my major projects implemented a layer of code to make the program more transparent and usable... and one of the major pieces used file handles to hide named pipes... He spelled it "filehadle", which in this case is more likely a typo, but he missed a lot of other words too. To this day I still get questions about that variable name (it's a good filter..., a programmer who brings that question is not one who I want working with that code).
Another best friend is now VP of a company he founded, and I hope he is getting his correspondence edited before sending.
There are even examples of Mr. Gates' e-mail... if you didn't know it was he, you'd think the author of some of his missives was illiterate.
All of this said and observed, I don't think I've ever been able to see any direct relationship or correlation with "illiteracy" and the technology gurus. I have seen more of a correlation with younger people and while I have no conclusive evidence I would submit this is more about a school system that spends time worrying about the wrong things. (I've even seen typo's/misspellings pop up on the CNN crawler! Ick!)
Another experience: a best friend of mine was in a German Blue Grass band, and they came to the U.S. and toured the midwest out of our house. So, here were four Germans with whom I spent over a week... and one of the most notable things about them was they spoke better English than most Americans! Go figure.
sms-speak (Score:5, Interesting)
Now, what really pisses me off is I bought a USB analog video capture device today. I didn't notice until I got back, but it actually says on the front: "DVD Direct Burn. No need to save in ur HDD". Seriously. I'm not sure I would have bought it if I noticed that earlier..
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
Most people don't care if the person they are chatting with is using perfect English... and they certainly don't care about "minor" things like correct spelling and grammar; all that really matters is that the message gets across quickly, and is understood on the other end.
What concerns me is how all this shorthand is hurting people in other areas of their life. In a business enviroment, writing an e-mail (or anything really) that uses any "netspeak" type shorthand, makes you look, in my eyes, like a lazy idiot.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
Technical minds like logic and order.
Therefore, geeks hate English.
Aggh, enough of this, I'm grabbing my pole and going ghoti'n.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:4, Interesting)
When I am posting here, I am giving my opinion on a topic. The content is what is important. I feel this is the wrong forum for your 'corrections' and 'suggestions.' It breaks the flow of the discussion. It has nothing to do with the topic being discussed, and makes you sound like a show off intellectual.
Frankly, I really dont want your critique of my grammar and spelling skills. If the post is intelligible or the error changes the meaning of the post significantly, then there's your time to jump in with your corrections. Otherwise, it just seems arrogant that folks like you feel free to offer your unsolicited advice and expect me to appreciate it.
Problem in America... BUT (Score:5, Interesting)
But...
The question that I've *never* heard asked...
Is America the only country where the native language is so disappointingly mangled by the vast majority of native citizens?
The funny/sad thing is when an American will gripe about a foreigner verbally mangling English... yet that same American most likely can't even speak a 2nd language... let alone speak it fluently. Bah.
I explain this in almost every interview (Score:3, Interesting)
As such, don't asking me about strange, disorderly rules of english phonetics and grammar. Don't ask geeks anything concerning social subtlies, such as language and money.
Article (Score:4, Interesting)
It basically falls into two categories. The one you're probably not complaining about is intentional joke misspellings like "teh intarwebnet". The one you are complaining about is the category where some words are just plain misspelled ("catagory"), and others use a correctly spelled wrong word (lose/loose, principal/principle, populace/populous, you're/your, its/it's). While some of the offenders are not native English speakers, most are the product of our (.us) wonderful educational system.
I suspect a major cause of this is people who didn't read a lot when they were young. Not that it matters any more, because publishers can't afford anyone clueful enough to copyedit spelling any more. And that is thanks to spelling checkers which blindly let correctly spelled wrong words through. I think you can thank Microsoft Word stifling competition in the word processor market for the lack of good grammar checking.
/teh intarnet is fool of morans
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:5, Interesting)
I tihnk taht seplnilg rellay deosnt matetr at all. For exmalpe, I bet taht you can raed tihs precfcetly fnie.
I bieelve it was proevn that as lnog as the frist and lsat lettres do not chnage, our brians can aoutomtacalily rearragne tehm and we have full comhenpresion.
I cnnaot fnid the lnik rgiht now but I am srue taht tihs was psoted on salhsodt a few mnoths ago.
Re:Revenge of the Spelling Nazi and Grammar Troll (Score:1, Interesting)
It's not difficult to learn and use correct grammar, or at least mostly-correct grammar, and then to spend 30 seconds proofreading your post.
"Grammar Considered Harmful" by more than hackers. (Score:3, Interesting)
My mother was a sometime proofreader, my father a sometime typesetter. I received what I can only presume was at best a typical language education in school from the late 1970s to late 1980s, read an awful lot of books, and wound up with grammar and spelling abilities that seemed a bit "above average" at the time, but now seem freakish.
Given any English-language newspaper from anywhere in the world, I will probably find errors in grammar or spelling. They're not quite as ubiquitous in books, but it's not uncommon for the typical 200-page work to have an error or two. Computer programs, web pages and the like are typically held to a lower standard, so I'm not the least bit surprised when they contain language errors.
That said, might English speakers actually have it better than people who prefer other languages? Most application interfaces are initially written in English, and sloppy translation during the "internationalization" process could have amusing or embarrassing results.
Re:Revenge of the Spelling Nazi and Grammar Troll (Score:5, Interesting)
That's how I feel when I'm forced to try and make sense of a "document" written by somebody that can't make the effort to use something close to proper grammar and spelling.
Unlike some of the grammar-Nazis out there, I'm happy enough to pass over minor mistakes. However, if I have to spend extra time trying to decode your message to me, of course I'm going to correct you. That way, in the future I won't have to waste my time trying to decipher your cruddy excuse for a document again.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
While I agree with both your points and the points brought up in the Ask Slashdot question, I couldn't resist the opportunity to point out your misuse of the word 'raise' here.
Look it up, 'rear' as a verb in this sense is used for bringing up children. 'raise' is used in this sense for growing crops and animals.
My high school English teachers absolutely *loved* to nail us on that one, so I speak from experience.
Re:Revenge of the Spelling Nazi and Grammar Troll (Score:5, Interesting)
Eh, I don't know. I tend to consider the diction an integral part of the message, myself; if there are glaringly obvious errors in basic structure, spelling, or diction, and I don't know the person well enough in any other way, it's going to impact the message for me. It's just the way I roll.
My father, a successful engineer with DEC for 15+ years, is a notoriously bad speller, to the point where I sometimes have to phonetically read his letters. (Make of that what you will in regards to my comments above. :P) The fact that I know he's intelligent and a good communicator of ideas mitigates his lack of polish grammatically in my eyes. If one of his co-workers wrote to me in such a style, though, I'd wonder how he made it out of college.
I try very hard not to be a jerk about grammar or spelling, learning to roll with the punches. I've almost gotten to the point where I consider a phrase like "makes its own gravy" to be written wrong because of the missing apostrophe, because it's so common -- even in advertising copy, for pete's sake.
I sometimes wonder if I'm one of the last generations (I'm 34) who will have any solid grounding in grammar, spelling, and basic English constructs for the future.Aoccdrnig to a rscheearch (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:The worst... (Score:3, Interesting)
Ess You See Kay Ee Dee.
The "loose/lose" and "should of" instead of "should have" are probably the only two that really irk me, for some reason. I generally don't even blink at "definately" or even the "there/their/they're" mixups most of the time, but "loose" just triggers a downright irrational irritation in me...
(For the record: "lose" means the opposite of "win", or alternatively "to unintentionally not have possession of something any more". "Loose", on the other hand, as a verb, means to intentionally let go of something. You "Loose the hounds" when you allow them to attack a burglar. You "Lose the Hounds" if the burglar runs off with them first...)
(I will now sit back and allow even better grammar fascists to correct my corrections...)
Re:Revenge of the Spelling Nazi and Grammar Troll (Score:4, Interesting)
I've said it before, but it's not the diction that matters, but the message.
I speak Finnish as my native language. Still I have noticed the poor spelling of English by a large number of geeks. The same seems to hold, perhaps to a smaller degree, in Finnish.
What you said in the sentence that I quoted is really wisdom, and I hope I could have such an attitude myself (but I wouldn't sacrifice my diction for it). Still I have noticed that whenever I read poorly written (grammar/spelling) text, I always have a negative presupposition against it. I just can't help it, it's something so deep in me. And I am sure I'm not the only one among those to whom grammar and spelling has never been a problem who thinks that way. What I seem to think subconsciously is something along the lines, "the writer doesn't even want to put the effort into making their text easily readable, so they cannot be very serious". Really reading poorly written text can be a slight annoyance, which you might not know (or maybe you do) if you aren't so fluent yourself.
While I'm trying to get rid of this, I'm sure a very large number of people aren't. So really I believe you would do well to yourself if you put some effort in trying to learn proper grammar and spelling if you want to be taken seriously.
Of course if you have some real, diagnosed disabilities, this might not be a possibility. That's one of the reasons why I'm trying really hard to get rid of that attitude of mine. But believe me, it's not easy (and I don't consider myself snotty or superior in any other sense).
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:4, Interesting)
We should throw out the old spelling. Knight is spelled the way it is because it used to be pronounced kuh-nig-it (yes, just like monty python). All it does is confuse everyone. With its odd mix of Latin and Anglo-Saxon words and grammar rules it's complicated enough as it is without weirdo spellings that are unrelated to pronunciation.
That being said though, the above sentence made me cry as well.
Re:grammar nazis get their fp story (Score:2, Interesting)
IMHO, if you have an apathy for something as basic as correct usage of a language, then you (and I for that matter) don't consider your ideas important enough to convey to others.
If you don't care enough to try to present it well (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't mind if someone has a few spelling mistakes or grammatical faux pas - we all make mistakes from time to time.
What I do hate - absofuckinglutely loathe - is shit like "u" instead of "you" and "4" instead of "for" and all that instant messenger shorthand when the person is clearly sitting at a regular keyboard and has plenty of time to compose a statement.
Rule of thumb: if you're IM'ing someone from your cell phone or trying to type quickly in a shoot-em-up, then fine, use shortcuts. If you're doing anything else - if you're not engaged in real-time communications - then at least make the effort to follow the rules.
Now, why am I so bugged by the "u" and "4" and all that shit? Because I'm somewhat dyslexic. When someone starts throwing stuff around like that, it takes me at least two or three times as long to parse it and make sense of it. I take the time to write clearly - I *agonize* over written communications I send out because I want to make absolutely sure that my point is getting across - it's important to me to know I'm understood.
So, if YOU don't treat what you're saying as important, then why the hell should I?
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
If showing off were the primary motivation, then why would I (and, I suspect, many others) always go AC when making such corrections? I mean, I know it's because of down-modding, but going AC pretty well blows away your supposed motive, doesn't it?
Re:Problem in America... BUT (Score:5, Interesting)
I knew one teenage girl while I was there was from Belarus, and her family spoke Belarussian at home, so her Russian was less than perfect - it was probably the quivalent of some backwoods "hick" English. She too was constantly corrected by her peers until she fixed her mistakes.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:5, Interesting)
Well, the first problem is that you are begging the question: why do you think it is possible to write clearly and unambiguously without recourse to conventional spelling, grammar, and usage? I think this is a highly doubtful proposition, because even clear and correct writing is often ambiguous. When I do understand bad writing, it is because I am smarter and have worked harder than the person who wrote it (remember, we are talking about native speakers, not geniuses who don't know the language.) Then too, bad writing is rude because it conveys the implicit message that time you save in writing is worth more than time I save in reading. But why do you think I should bother to read something you can't be bothered to write?
I think you are also mistaken in assuming that the only drawback of bad writing is that other people can't understand you. Literacy is a system, and if you are a bad writer you are unlikely to be a very good reader. Consider the locution I employed in my first paragraph: "begging the question." This phrase derives from a meaning of "begging" that is no longer current, namely "taking for granted." Because this is an antiquated meaning, many people interpret the phrase as "begging for the question." What's wrong with that? After all, language is continuously changing. Certainly. But if you don't even know the old meaning, and make a point of refusing to learn it, you have cut yourself off from the writings of earlier generations; writings that in many cases are more interesting than what you have to say now (that, after all, is why they have been preserved.) For my part, I believe that most people who misuse phrases like this do so in ignorance and are tacitly acknowledging my point: they have adopted the phrase, without understanding it, in hopes that by emulating better writing, their own will be more favourably received.
Re:Problem in America... BUT (Score:2, Interesting)
The end result is an entire generation that speak only in SMS-speak and mangled grammar.
Of course this is something that's not at all unique to Sweden, but it's very noticable here, and as a self-proclaimed grammar Nazi, it bugs me. The problem is not at all as prevalent amongst adults, but these kids will eventually grow up to be adult too. Makes you wonder, will they learn to speak and write properly in time, or will this new, mangled Swedish become the "standard" language in a few decades?
This is not the issue at hand, though. Parent asked if people in other countries didn't master their own native tongue, as they (according to parent) do in America.
on a large scale, I'd like to say that we Swedes know how to speak our language quite well, with a few exceptions. There's a rule in Swedish grammar that dictates how and when words are written as one (eg. fish store would be fishstore in Swedish). A surprising number of Swedes make the mistake of writing the words separate from each other. To someone who's aware of this rule, these mistakes are like a nail in the eye, you can't avoid seeing them, and when you do you just get annoyed by it.
*sigh*
Making an impression (Score:4, Interesting)
(Obviously, I make exceptions for non-native writers, and for some kinds of informal communication.)
I'm particularly bothered by executives who have this problem. One CEO I used to work for was so busy and so important that he just didn't have time to make his messages coherent. Getting an e-mail from him was like receiving a prophesy from the Oracle of Delphi, or like trying to interpret the cryptic mumbling of Mao Tse-Tung.
Reading between the lines, the attidute here is: "I'm more important than you. I'd rather you waste an hour trying to figure out what I'm talking about than spend sixty seconds myself editing this e-mail."
I think you can imagine just how inspiring this guy was as a leader.
-- Brian
Nonsense (Score:2, Interesting)
There is no point in learning to speak a second language fluently if you're never going to use it. Most Americans aren't going to move out of country. And a good majority of Americans will never leave the country. America's so damn big, that few Americans will run into someone that they have to speak German or French.
However, if you actually do move to another country, then you should be able to speak the language fluently. If you do phone support for another country, then you should be able to speak their language fluently. You can not expect a society to make up for YOUR lack of communication skills.
English is the official language for all intents and purposes in America. If you can't speak English well and you want to live in or work for Americans, then you should learn how.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
This is the same as people selling their "labtop" computers on eBay. It's completely wrong, but it's completely understandable - people just misheard the word when they learnt it. The audible different between "should've" and "should of" is pretty much zero... language hasn't evolved a new phrase - what you are saying sounds exactly like it did before, so why try to insist on spelling it differently when you come to write it down?
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
Because it is just so difficult to differentiate between Knight and night isn't it. If that one's hard, how about to, two, and too?
Seriously, is it any harder to remember which night/knight to use than deciding to use a char or an int?
Laziness, pure laziness.
Shitdrummer
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm Australian, and officially we use British spelling. That means we use "gaol" instead of "jail", "colour" instead of "color", and (mostly) use the letter "s" in words where America uses "z". "license" is the verb, and "licence" is the noun, while America just has "license". But I write code (and documentation) for an exclusively American market. So I have to change to American standards throughout all of my work.
But what should I do when I blog about my work? It's a personal thing for me, and read by people in Australia, Europe and North-America. Do I talk about "synchronisation primitives"? Do I "serialise" data? Should I use a GPL "licence"? Or should I be using the American standards?
Idioms are another issue. They tend to migrate from America to Australia, but it sounds strange to adopt it too early. "Should of" is just one example of language changing. 10 years ago, no one in Australia said "Cool". Now we all do. 50 years ago "got" meant "received" and nothing else. Now it is used as a superfluous adjunct to "have" (I've got to speak correctly). Which of the changes in language are appropriate to use?
Maybe my blog shouldn't matter, but it turns out that most of my clients read it, and it has led to several offers of work. I don't want to appear illiterate in it!
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
As a simple example: "I can't not fall.". This means, of course, that "I can't avoid falling." or "I must fall.", which is not quite the same thing as "I can fall.". In this case, there is an alternative to the double negative which conveys the same meaning, but there do exist cases (I think!) for which there is not an alternative. If you allow double negatives to simply mean the same thing as a single negative, you lose nuances of meaning that are currently possible.
Appearing less intellegent... so what! (Score:4, Interesting)
Now you can certainly be an obsessive bookworm who loves to debate the details of various well known and obscure literature. And that person is likely to have very good written an verbal skills.
Now would a powerful command of the english language be useful in one's career? Certainly. Just as having excellent technical skills would be useful for just about anyone in this day and age.
Perhaps anyone that talk good become manager and stop being engineeer. (or vice versa)
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:1, Interesting)
It's all true (Score:2, Interesting)
Boards like this one are also the victims, I think, of people doing five things at one on their computer and not paying much attention to any of them.
Add to this that we seem to be dumbing down education in the school system, especially in use of English and you have a real mess. Some of the handouts my kids bring home from school contain some of the goofiest errors. Now that makes me weep.
Vocabulary too, is shrinking. I have been stunned to find that many kids don't know the meaning of many common words. While the hallmark of good communication is the use of plain, simple language, the key to that is to use the right word, not a string of meaningless adjectives and adverbs.
Anyway, that's my take though I could go on.
No child left behind... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Problem in America... BUT (Score:1, Interesting)
This is true, for a very simple reason- there is a subject, in schools, called "Russian Language". Not "Literature" - that is a separate subject. Now, the thing you learn in the above mentioned "Russian Language" is, in fact, grammar and spelling and punctuation, and, in since in order to get an A(well, 5), you have to have no errors whatsoever...
People know the language, or at least, have the opportunity to do so. Combined with the fact that, the Russian language is extremely difficult to learn, knowing it well becomes a certain symbol of education and knowledge- and, at this point, it is a symbol of ignorance and idiocy to not know it as well as you should.
To put it differently- having also gone through the American school system, I really think it would have been nice if somebody told me the actual rules for, lets say, comma placement. I don't think the problem entirely lies there, but I think it helps.
Maybe the answer is Jargon? (Score:2, Interesting)
This is partly for better communication within its members. Constructs such as well-known abbreviations (e.g. CRM, OOP), or normal english words that are used in a specific way e.g. object, delegate.
At some point, this novel use of the language also becomes a way of distinguishing those inside the community and those outside. It can also become a form of innuendo, or even a dialect of its own designed to exclude muggles.
Some of the bad spelling and grammar is simply that, but I suspect much of it is also jargon used in this manner. I know this because I am teh 1337 h@xx0r & pwn u.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
Change is Good (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:5, Interesting)
The posessive is a leftover from the days when English had more noun declensions. For example, we still have "I", "me", and "my" as examples of the Nominative (Subject), Accusative (Object), and Genitive (Possessive) cases. Currently, a person's name would be represented as eg. "John", "John", "John's". But at one time, the Genitive case had an "i" in it, so it would've been "John", "John", "Johnis". You still occasionally see this in old place names. For example, the Spotswood hotel near here has embedded into its concrete "Spottiswoode".
People who prefer to avoid language history usually remember the apostrophe indication posessive as a secondary rule to the one about a letter being left out.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:5, Interesting)
HAH! exactly what is logical about the semi-random assignment of gender to nouns (die-das-der)?
The Tale of the Fishwife and its Sad Fate:(as literally translated into English)
"It is a bleak Day. Hear the Rain, how he pours, and the Hail, how he rattles; and see the Snow, how he drifts along, and of the Mud, how deep he is! Ah the poor Fishwife, it is stuck fast in the Mire; it has dropped its Basket of Fishes; and its Hands have been cut by the Scales as it seized some of the falling Creatures; and one Scale has even got into its Eye, and it cannot get her out. It opens its Mouth to cry for Help; but if any Sound comes out of him, alas he is drowned by the raging of the Storm. And now a Tomcat has got one of the Fishes and she will surely escape with him. No, she bites off a Fin, she holds her in her Mouth -- will she swallow her? No, the Fishwife's brave Mother-dog deserts his Puppies and rescues the Fin -- which he eats, himself, as his Reward. O, horror, the Lightning has struck the Fish-basket; he sets him on Fire; see the Flame, how she licks the doomed Utensil with her red and angry Tongue; now she attacks the helpless Fishwife's Foot -- she burns him up, all but the big Toe, and even she is partly consumed; and still she spreads, still she waves her fiery Tongues; she attacks the Fishwife's Leg and destroys it; she attacks its Hand and destroys her also; she attacks the Fishwife's Leg and destroys her also; she attacks its Body and consumes him; she wreathes herself about its Heart and it is consumed; next about its Breast, and in a Moment she is a Cinder; now she reaches its Neck -- he goes; now its Chin -- it goes; now its Nose -- she goes. In another Moment, except Help come, the Fishwife will be no more. Time presses -- is there none to succor and save? Yes! Joy, joy, with flying Feet the she-Englishwoman comes! But alas, the generous she-Female is too late: where now is the fated Fishwife? It has ceased from its Sufferings, it has gone to a better Land; all that is left of it for its loved Ones to lament over, is this poor smoldering Ash-heap. Ah, woeful, woeful Ash-heap! Let us take him up tenderly, reverently, upon the lowly Shovel, and bear him to his long Rest, with the Prayer that when he rises again it will be a Realm where he will have one good square responsible Sex, and have it all to himself, instead of having a mangy lot of assorted Sexes scattered all over him in Spots."
-Mark Twain
For the full laundry list of the difficulties of the German language see The Awful German Language [utah.edu], by Mark Twain
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
This is bullshit. put y in one category or the other AND LEAVE IT THERE. If English speaking folks are so smart and accurate then get rid of all the ambiguities. Stop with the bending rules, sometimes y, sometimes guh. AAHHHHHHH!!
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree, in part. But I think that the "it's" vs "its" thing is simply as a result of people not knowing what the word "its" means. Nothing about grammatical restraint or anything like that, just a lack of education.
I also believe that as long as spelling or grammar doesn't get in the way (i.e. as long as I, as the reader, do not have to spend my time translating your grammar and spelling) it really doesn't matter all that much.
Modern and Ottoman Turkish (Score:3, Interesting)
An interesting book that talks about the dynamic nature of language is John McWhorter's Power of Babel [amazon.com].
spelling (Score:1, Interesting)
I am surprised that that the idea that you can be technically sciled but not good at English as not come up there are a number of learning disabilities such as dyslexia that could manifest them selves in this way.
I am very dyslexic I can not tell if a word is misspelt, or not. Maybe to every one else out there when you read something I have written you see it with all the incorrect words marked in red or something. I don't.
No the advent of spell checkers have helped a lot. However I don't always have aces to a pc that has a spell checker installed. Even when I do like now there are many words in my vocabulary that even with the help of a spellchecker I can not figure the spelling for.
I do not have very pore spelling and grammar to annoy you but simply because this is the best I am at the language in its written form. I have a degree from a well respected university (Edinburgh) but I still can not spell. This is not for lack of trying I have been trying to improve my English all my life and still attend a class a couple of times a weak with some 8 year olds (witch is a little embarrassing) trying to improve my spelling.
So feel free to correct my grammar and spelling and I will try to learn the rules but don't discount my feelings or technical abilities because I cant spell.
Whenever I reply to a post like this I leave the last paragraph uncorrected as I write naturally so you can see how much correction has already happened.
Maby if you now soe one or a have a chiled who has dylexia or one of the variatys of autisam you mite what to tal about the prolems with some one else who has them felk fre to cantact me.
Blake
Re:Good hackers have excellent communication skill (Score:3, Interesting)
That's from "Programming as a discipline of mathematical nature" [utexas.edu], in which Dikjstra writes "A programmer must be able to express himself extremely well, both in a natural language and in the formal systems."
In a ranting mood, Djykstra once wrote these one-liners: [utexas.edu]
Then came PowerPoint.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
No, it expresses a realistic expectation of the individual involved. If you can't be bothered to put forth the effort to master the basics of your own native tongue then I have no reason to believe that you aren't equally lazy when it comes to other endeavors. As an employer I won't hire you hire - plain and simple. Why should I? You've already proven that you're "too good" to bother with something as simple as correct spelling; why should I expect anything less egotistical from you on the job? This sort of pseudo-intellectual snobbishness that some of the geek set wear as a warped badge of honor tells me that you're just an asshole, when all is said and done - and proud of it. So much 'better' than your fellow man that even the use of a spell-checker is beneath you.
I don't have the time or energy to waste on little shits who seem to be eternally stuck in in some kind of pubescent "I'm such a cool rebel!" mode. They're no different than those idiots who think that ragging on Britney Spears while extolling the virtues of their shitty garage band somehow makes them counterculture, and therefore better than everyone around them. People like this need to grow the fuck up and start acting like adults.
Elitist prick I might be, but it beats being a pathetic little toad who takes pride in his deliberate intellectual incompetence.
Max
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:4, Interesting)
You're confusing evolution with change. Languages change , they don't "evolve". Theres no natural selection going on with the most efficient word usage etc. If there were then english would never have come out of the far more logical (grammatically and with spelling) anglo-saxon tongue. They simply change by random drift depending on the prevailing societal conditions and fashions at any given time.
Spelling: The problem is the Roman Alphabet. (Score:3, Interesting)
- The Roman Alphabet is not designed for English: In Spanish we have about 30 phonemes (only 5 of them vowels) and we have a written alphabet with 29 letters (we consider rr, ll, and ~n separate letters). That's a really nice fit. It means we spell mostly everything phonetically. (No spelling bees for us, thank you very much). Things fit because the writing system was derived from Latin and Spanish is a direct decedent of that language. In contrast, English is way more complicated. There are are about 48 phonemes 22 of these are vowels. Yet, English has an alphabet with only 26 characters and only 5 of them are vowels. Thus, spelling is hard. This presents a huge problem, but not a unique one. The Japanese borrowed their writing system from China, but it didn't fit with them phonetically so they created their own writing systems to address this issue (hiragana, katakana). The same holds true for the Koreans. I remember reading somewhere that Abraham Lincoln tried to address this issue by extending the Roman language for English, but his alphabet didn't take (don't know if that's a myth though). Think of all of the time and effort spent in our schools teaching children how to spell, this time could be better spent on more important things like math and science. As a Spanish speaker, I taught myself to read as a child before I even entered school. It was really easy, you learn a couple of rules and that's it you're done. I don't understand why English has never come up with its own alphabet.
- English has the nasty habit of maintaining foreign spelling when it adopts a new word: I don't understand why this is done at all. It makes no sense. In Spanish, as with other languages, we adopt foreign words into our writing system so that we know how to spell them. Why is it than in English we have to know where a word comes from to know how it should be spelled?
In my opinion, written English is a mess. The language in its written form is so complicated that it sets you up for failure. That's why people get upset when you correct them.Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:2, Interesting)
Your overall point is one I highly agree with, but I need to point out that you're actually slightly wrong about Chinese characters having no phonetic meaning.
Once you know enough Chinese characters, you can pretty reliably guess the pronunciations of other characters. This is because a majority of hanzi have one part that's morpheme/meaning based and one part that's phonetic.
I wish Slashdot allowed Chinese character encoding. I'd show you what I mean. But here's are some examples:
Jiao1: "To exchange" by itself.
Xiao4: A wood radical + the above-mentioned Jiao1. Meaning "school".
Lao3: "Old".
Lao3: The above Lao3 + a human radical, meaning "a person of a given descent", as in Mei3lao3 ("American, Yankee").
When a radical is added to a phonetic component, the sound will usually change a little, but some barely change at all, as with the second example.
Previous Occurances of a Universal Language (Score:2, Interesting)
This discussion reminds me a lot of similar discussions held over the ages on the proper or not grammar, spelling and syntax of Greek (which is my native language). Long story made short: change is inevitable and will take the language to a direction that, collectively, most will not like. However, each small change will have been approved and, more significantly, adopted by a large majority.
Sticking to what is perceived at any time as 'correct' (which is, of course, debatable even at that time) may be the only weapon in the hands of those who do not like the directions their everyday expression tool is taken. They cannot, however, hold back the inevitable. This is true for every language, except for dead ones, but even more so for the universal language of each era. Ancient greek degenerated into common greek (the language in which the Gospels were written for those not familiar, which is pretty much the same with modern greek and not that bad, in any case), latin into vulgar latin (a term, I have nothing against it) and english into american english (I just could not resist the joke). I am sure this has happened many more times in other areas of the world.
This transition is neither good nor bad. What's more, it can definitely not be decided neither right nor wrong. What is striking, though, is the fact that, at least for the examples I have in mind, such change was brought by non-native speakers, while the native speakers held the flag of purity up high. I cannot base this on facts, but I feel that with English it is the other way round. Non-native speakers try hard to adhere to the rules and spirit of the language, while native speakers, especially those in the worlds of tech and cool, choose to differentiate themselves by straying away from the common path.
I have thought this may be due to the fact that English was an amalgam of languages almost from the very beginning and thus both open to and unprotected from drift (in the genetics meaning). But I am sure there are many a lot more qualified to express an opinion on this.
-m-
Finally Someone Said IT! (Score:2, Interesting)
(btw... i live in ohio, nobody has a real southern accent, but for some reason they all talk like that)
I am glad i am not the only one who is noticing the downfall of english grammar and spelling.
The real question is, "is there anything we can do?"
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
You're wrong that "Britain didn't care". Ever heard of a guy called Samuel Johnson? Even though Johnson's dictionary was pretty arbitrary and missed tons of stuff, it was *the* essential book that every English-speaking home had (after the Bible). It wasn't until the Oxford English Dictionary that it was completely superseded in Britain. American dictionaries were significantly later than Johnson, although slightly earlier (by a few decades) than the OED.
You're also wrong that spelling and grammar are completely arbitrary. All these rules are based on their source languages. So if you learn some of the basic component parts of words (eg. "aqua-", "anti-", "ante-", "ex-") then you see these underlying rules in action. It helps if you know another language that does this - German is a really good example, bcos German hardly ever invents new words, it just smashes more of them together to get the overall meaning. Which is what was done in English, except English used Greek/Latin/Anglo-Saxon/French stems.
"Fernseher" as the German for "television" is a great example. "Fern"=far, "seher"=viewer/seer. What a funny way of expressing it, you think. But "television" comes from Greek roots: "tele"=far, "vision"=that which is seen. Ah-hah! Suddenly things fall into place, don't they?
The one good thing about English is that however tortured the grammar and spelling used, the meaning is almost always obvious. English is spoken in so many different ways, with so many different local versions, that English-speakers are used to inferring meaning on-the-fly, even if the phrases used are not familiar, and to following the most amazing variation in accents. Now compare and contrast to French, for example. French has its Academie which enforced French grammar rules and new words very strictly. Result? If you don't speak perfect French, you have one hell of a job making yourself understood. Some may say this is the French being snobbish, but I sincerely believe they're just not used to trying to follow the speech of people who don't talk the way they do.
Grab.
Re:Wow! What a question to ask on Slashdot... (Score:3, Interesting)
beer, cheer, neer? no, near!
Fine! near, wear/bear? err... just broke English
I can do at least 100 of this easily. No, you can't even be sure how to pronounce 'wear' the first time you see it, so no you are incorrect. Providing one example where I just happen to get it right because I am well versed in the phonetics-breaking "ph" sound (ironically in the word phonetics) cannot prove truth. However providing one counter example will prove it false. I'm sure you can find one word somewhere that even the most learned orthographist would not pronounce correctly. You might consider yourself an expert and you might be, but the fact of the matter is English pronunciation is completely arbitrary.
BBC Apostrophes Quiz (Score:1, Interesting)
http://www.bbc.co.uk/skillswise/words/grammar/pun
Re:How to learn spelling (Score:3, Interesting)
My mom used to teach junior high English. She said that by the end of each term, she had a harder time noticing errors in the students' papers because she'd been surrounded by bad grammar and misspelled words for so long.
there are too many exceptions to the rule (Score:3, Interesting)
the subject verb agreement is an example that sometimes can be confusing. e.g. he is big but microsoft are bigger. (i'm not sure about this) - all is good but all are reading slashdot. it is sometimes the singular and plural forms. i mean like equipment is for both. why not use childs for plural for child instead of children. or why not alumnuses instead of alumni.
there are lots of other cases that i don't remember right now as i probably don't use them often. but when i encounter these, it's a hit or miss and unfortunately, i think it is more of miss.
anyway (or is it anyways?), i am setting my sight on chinese interested and i hope to study soon.