Getting the Most Out of Your Green Buck? 98
batobin asks: "My dad is thinking of installing a solar photovoltaic system on the roof. After tax credits, it'll cost $12,000. In Santa Barbara, where we live, our power company grants credits when the meter runs backwards and saves the credits for 12 months, reducing our monthly power bills year round. If the contractor's math is correct, the amortization period (when our power bill savings equals the installation cost) is about 12 years. With environmental and geo-political concerns in mind, is this the best use of our money? Will reduced consumption translate into cleaner air / less dependence on fossil fuels? What other environmentally proactive investments could be made with 12 grand?"
I would not go that route. (Score:2)
Re:I would not go that route. (Score:2)
Twelve passive years for 100% ROI is pretty good. Especially if the system lasts for longer than that.
Wind might be even better--although as I understand it you need a relatively considerable investment to achieve worthwhile current.
Re:I would not go that route. (Score:1)
You have to think of the future value of money.
In fact, if you invest wisely, you may never catch up.
Re:I would not go that route. (Score:2)
On the other hand, what if new technology rolls out later that significantly reduces the cost or improves reliability/lifetime of solar technology? Like solar "mats" that withstand damage and are made more cheaply, and can be more easily installed, instead of inflexible, heavy panels? You have to wonder wheth
Duh (Score:2)
Get a $12,000 home equity loan at 6% amortized over 30 years and you're paying $71.95/mo for your solar panels (it's $101.26/mo amortized over 15 years if you want to pay off faster).
What's your electric bill? The electric bill on my house is about $100-130/mo, so I'd be saving money every month with $0 out of pocket. I could invest that $12k wherever I wanted and deduct my interest payments on my taxes. Of course, I don't live in cali, so none of this reall
Re:Duh (Score:1)
I would take it out on 0% no annual fees credit cards.
All my credit cards are on that. 0% interest, no annual fee, no transfer fee. What? Your credit is not that great?
Then keep rolling them onto new introductory offers. I've not paid 1 cent on interest on $20,000 in 3 years.
Now, yes, I have the money in the bank, but that's earning 3 and change (ING savings), so I can pay off the credit cards anytime.
I am not impressed (Score:2)
And to top it off, you aren't even using a high-rate money market account.
But at least you feel smart, and I suppose that is what is most important.
Re:I am not impressed (Score:1)
I have complete cash availability, and I didn't say that was the only monies I had invested.
I'll leave the trollish comment about feeling smart alone.
On the investment for solar panels: you're right, taking out a loan is probably best. Also, it will i
Bah Humbug (Score:1)
X=6%
Given that inflation is running at 2.4%, this is a pretty crappy return. Energy upgrades that I've done to my house have averaged ~80% annualized returns. I think you're better off taking the capital markets appreciation from $12,000 in perpetuity and investing it in:
1) Energy saver lighting
2) Better insulation
3) A swamp cooler replacing air conditioning
4) Water heater insulation
5) Recycling services if your city doesn't provide them
6) LCD monitors vs. CRT
7) Efficient refrigerator, fu
Re:I would not go that route. (Score:2)
Or, you can go another route. You can "purchase" 100 kWh blocks of wind energy for $2.50 per block [newwindenergy.com].
While your particular residence will not be powered by wind, one of the participating grids will purchase X blocks of wind power instead of having to generate those blocks via fossil.
- Tony
A few brainstorms... (Score:2)
Off hand a few other ideas:
1) How about a hybrid gas/electric vehicle (or if you can find one, an all electric one)? They do better in mileage than all gas vehicles and do near zero emissions. Consider this one carefully though. Also 12 grand alone probably won't cover it, you're going to have finance approx. 8 grand or so.
2) Looked at your air conditioning and/or heating systems lately? Cheaper investments, though the returns on your electr
Re:A few brainstorms... (Score:2)
Re:A few brainstorms... (Score:1)
Re:A few brainstorms... (Score:2)
In the city, where your "stop and go" driving ensures that you're running the car at its most effeciient rather than its least.
Hybrids don't do as advertised partly because the EPA tests don't make sense for them, and mostly because they weren't designed for the long and steady runs of an American highway system.
Re:A few brainstorms... (Score:2)
Good idea. A heat recovery system would be a good investment. Also think about a new fridge and washer and dryer. LCD tv, LCD monitor, and try and not drive one day a week. Even if it is Saturday or Sunday.
Re:A few brainstorms... (Score:2)
Don't drive to work at all. Find a job & live where you can take public transportation to work.
-kb, the Kent who does drive on weekends.
Solar is not so green (Score:2, Interesting)
Doesn't it take more power to manufacture a solar panel than that solar panel will produce in it's lifetime? That was the primary factor in the expense of manufacturing of solar panels. So, by going solar you will save money over the years, especially when you take into account inflating energy prices. But better for the environment, not really. Possibly worse if you add in the industrial waste of t
Re:Solar is not so green (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Solar is not so green (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.solarbus.org/documents/pvpayback.pdf [solarbus.org]
In addition, semiconductor manufacturing processes do not create nearly the amount of pollutants as in years past, and most manufacturers have very aggressive recycling policies (the company I work for recycles 85-90% of all our waste)
That said, a hybrid/electric vehicle, more efficient appliances, even better insulation would probably provide a quicker ROI.
Good Luck!
More food for thought (Score:2)
You didn't factor in ongoing costs for maintenance and repair. I'd be surprised if you could operate the system for twelve years with no upkeep.
Will this system change your dad's homeowner insurance premium?
On the upside, you'll have some daytime electricity during power failures.
Re:More food for thought (Score:2)
The other thing is that there are newer solar panels that just came out that actually work 100% better than the panels currently on the market. Unfortunately, its too early for me to think of the right name and google just
Re:More food for thought (Score:2, Informative)
This is not exactly true. if you're tied into the grid in such a way so that your meter spins backwards, if the power goes out, your solar will go into the grid but you won't be powering your house with the solar that you produce. The giant pull that then happens on your solar grid won't be able to support all your neighbors and such so your house will go out to.
I have solar on my house, a 4.5 kW system and its sure nice to have i
Solar panel lifetime? (Score:2)
What's the lifetime on solar panels? I would imagine there's some sort of capacitance/battery involved - in which case won't you have to replace those on a regular basis?
Re:Solar panel lifetime? (Score:4, Informative)
Basically two operating modes:
Sunny day - the house gets its power from the solar panels, with any excess going 'into' the grid. You may get a cheque in the mail from your electricity provider for the power you send into the grid, you may not - it all depends. If you're at work 5 days a week and the house is basically empty, you should get some cash back, and with appropriately-sized panels, your power bill should zero out.
Rainy day and nighttime - the house gets its power from the grid, and your 20 grand's worth of panels sit useless on the roof, while your neighbours mock you
Grid-interactive's probably the way to go if your existing grid supply is reliable, and your provider has some environmental smarts about it.
You burn MORE fossil fuels this way (Score:1, Insightful)
To illustrate, here's a thought experiment: if every other source of energy quit w
Re:You burn MORE fossil fuels this way (Score:2)
Parent is very informative. I hope the mods take notice.
I wonder if other roof-installed solar applications suffer from the same drawbacks as you mentiod (solar water heaters, for instance).
Although, most water heaters today are powered by natural gas. It would probably be more dollar-efficient to reduce consumption of other combustables (oil, coal, etc.).
Re:You burn MORE fossil fuels this way (Score:1)
Re:You burn MORE fossil fuels this way (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You burn MORE fossil fuels this way (Score:2)
That is false.
It clearly doesn't take more than $12,000 worth of energy to make a solar panel that sells for $12,000.
If a solar panel makes more electricity than it costs to buy the panel, it's a net energy gain.
-- Should you believe authority without question?
Re:You burn MORE fossil fuels this way (Score:3, Informative)
Re:You burn MORE fossil fuels this way (Score:2)
We don't have enough information to determine manufacturing cost.
All we know about the $12,000 is that it is a subsidized *purchase* price. And that the unsubsidized purchase price is higher.
The manufacturing cost could be *much* less.
Urban legend alert! (Score:5, Informative)
As far as we know, photo-voltaic systems are not "self-sustaining". That is, every kilowatt hour of energy your system produces in it's entire lifetime will not be more than the kilowatt hours that were used up to purify and crystallize the silicon, and make the PV system.
This is a myth [energy.gov]. After two to four years, there is a net gain. (It also fails the sniff test: if the myth were true, they would have to sell them for less than it costs to make them.)
--MarkusQ
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
But that's not what the parent said. He or she said it takes more energy to produce them then they will generate in their expected lifetime.
That has little or nothing to do with the actual cost. Energy, in most forms, is still reasonably cheap.
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
He or she said it takes more energy to produce them then they will generate in their expected lifetime.
Ok, right. But if it were to take more energy to produce than they generate, they would be sold for less than their cost to manufacture. eg If they require 1500 kw to produce, at $.15/kw, that'd be $225 in energy costs to produce. However, if they were only able to produce less energy than they required they'd only be able to save the consumer the amount they could produce eg if they max produced 1000
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:1)
Of course, this statement is predicated on the theory that the cost of electricity per unit of energy is uniform throughout the universe.
I suspect that you are correct that the manufacture a PV cell typically uses less power than that cell will produce over its lifetime. (On the other hand, I imagine that running homes on PVs is a net environmental loss given the totality of the effects of the manufacturing process.)
In any case, your logic is rotten.
-Peter
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:1)
That's basically the whole point of the argument. People will still buy solar because it's supposedly better for the environment, without investigating it. It's entirely possible for them to sell them this way.
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
Ok, right. But if it were to take more energy to produce than they generate, they would be sold for less than their cost to manufacture.
Almost certainly not. Non-rechargable batteries take more energy to produce than they generate, but batteries are still sold at a profit.
So you'd have to pay $225 to save $150; and of course you wouldn't.
I wouldn't, but there's a sucker born every minute. Moreover, solar panels are generally not used to power houses, but to bring power to places where running wires
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
That assumes:
a) that all information is available to the customer.
b) that the prospective customer has done the maths.
c) that the customer acts rationally.
If you ask me, those are some pretty big assumptions.
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
Uh, run that by me again? If X what I pay for a solar panel and Y is what it is worth to me (the net amount of reduction in my utility bills) then Y > X or I wouldn
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
Excuse me for jumping in, but allow me to play devil's advocate.
Perhaps the inconsistency is the price of energy the PV factory pays and the price of energy a homeowner pays. Let's throw out some (fake) numbers. The PV panel is built using 100kW and will produce 80kW over its lifetime. The factory, buying bulk energy from a nearby hydro-electric plant is charged 50cents per kW.
The company takes the panel and sells it to my dad. Our power comes from far-off nuclear, coal, and hydro plants and costs 1
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:3, Interesting)
No. There is no inconsistency: just a few people who know nothing about pricing a product. The amount of energy it cost to make is a vanishingly small consideration in the price it is sold for. It's sold for what the market will bear. So if it cost $50 of electricity to make, and will generate $45 in energy during its lifetime, there's no reason the company can't sell it for $5,000 if enough peo
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
So if it cost $50 of electricity to make, and will generate $45 in energy during its lifetime, there's no reason the company can't sell it for $5,000
But the issue is that there is no one suggesting that anyone pay $5,000 to save $45 in utility bills. All of the arguments for solar power that I've seen argue that you save more money in lowered utility bills than you spent on the panels. Therefore, the cost to you must be less than the $45 it saves in energy.
Even if the power cost of manufacture is 1/10
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:1)
I guess I'm inclined to believe the panels pay themselves off eventually (the web sites say 2 years, our contractor says 12). I'm also inclined to believe that before the panels die their net environmental impact would be positive.
But from what others are saying, it looks like solar water, new appliances, and home insulation should take precedence.
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
the web sites say 2 years, our contractor says 12
The difference is the other costs of manufacture (labor, material, etc.) and the profit they make on them.
But from what others are saying, it looks like solar water, new appliances, and home insulation should take precedence.
I'd strongly agree. And don't forget to look at things like "trip elimination"--by telecomuting and buying UHT milk (keeps for months without refridgeration) I've cut down significantly on my driving, compared to going into the o
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
Correct: they're mostly not trying to be green. Most users of solar electricity aren't doing it so they can get off the grid and switch to cheaper power; they generally don't have ready access to an electrical grid in the first place. So the benefit they get from solar energy has a much higher cost than someone who is on-grid and looking to save money over the long haul.
If it costs $10,00
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:2)
I wonder who started that myth... hmm, starts with "big" ends with "oil"?
Re:Urban legend alert! (Score:1)
Well, except for the tax credits making it possible to sell them for less than it cost to make them. At least from the point of view of the end consumer.
swap the car for a diesel, and run BioDiesel (Score:3, Informative)
BioDiesel solves the chicken and egg problem, and its a fuel with similar energy density to petroleum fuels, unlike ethanol, or god forbid, hydrogen.
BioDiesel also comes close to closing the carbon cycle, since the carbon in the fuel came from the air to begin with. Because it doesn't come from the ground, there's no sulphur or metals in it.
Re:swap the car for a diesel, and run BioDiesel (Score:1)
Re:swap the car for a diesel, and run BioDiesel (Score:1)
Dude, the carbon in fossil fuels comes from biomass that's been heated under pressure over geological time... it's been through the atmosphere too. The cycle is just a heck of a lot longer. Your point about metals and sulfur probably has merit though.
Re:swap the car for a diesel, and run BioDiesel (Score:1)
It doesn't do me any good to know that the carbon my car puts into the air was already there, 65 million years ago, if I can't breathe now.
Dude.
Buy pollution credits? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Buy pollution credits? (Score:2)
I thought of this too. With regard to getting a return, one might be able to sell them on the open market in 12 years. If enviro-groups continue buying credits at the current rate, supply will have shifted inward and the price will be higher.
Of course, then you're allowing companies to pollute again. But at least mother nature got a 12 year break.
Re:Buy pollution credits? (Score:2)
You should wait... (Score:5, Interesting)
And, your Dad won't be pissed when your neighbor buys a similar solar panel rig for 20% of what he paid.
Re:You should wait... (Score:1, Funny)
Yeah, I've been doing the same thing with computers. I haven't bought a new one since 1987. There's always some cool new tech just around the corner that I don't want to miss out on. I've been sitting back, waiting til the market stabilizes...
Re:You should wait... (Score:1)
In computing terms, this could be the equivalent of jumping from a Pentium 1 to a Pentium 4 in only a year or two.
Wired Article (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Wired Article (Score:2)
The result was burned out panels... too much heat cooked the cells. (A utility sized concentrated solar project failed from panel burnout for example) Also photovoltaic panels are more efficient at lower temps. Hard to do with something sitting in the sun and even tougher when you a tripling the amount of solar
Not Worth It (Score:5, Interesting)
Photovoltaic still isn't economical and really is not all that green either. There are better ways to be environmentally proactive.
Don't bother with photovolatic. Not yet. The manufacturing process is polluting and the ROI is not worth it.
Re:Not Worth It (Score:2)
Do you by chance happen to have a horrible mosquito problem near your home?
Re:Not Worth It (Score:2)
How do you freeze stuff then? Getting rid of something you actively use isn't really a solution if you don't have anything to replace it with.
The best answer (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The best answer (Score:1)
ethanol!!! (Score:2)
Reduce consumption (Score:3, Insightful)
Temperature control (heating and cooling) can be better done through passive means, ie: insulation, shading, ventilation, low-e windows.
Use the kiss principle, don't buy electronic gismos for every little thing. Do more manually, the human body is designed to manipulate manual tools. Don't throw away the gifts that all those generations of evolution have given you.
Move to a tiny apartment within walking distance of jobs, schools, restaurants, bars, theaters. Lose the car. Shop less, live more.
Re:Reduce consumption (Score:1)
Re:Reduce consumption (Score:3, Insightful)
I appreciate your "back to the basics" approach, but I don't see the harm in modernization. There are lots of reasons to use computers, and only one way to power them. I don't suppose yours is powered by a hand crank?
Re:Reduce consumption (Score:2)
*I'm* powered by a hand crank.
There are other ways, but... (Score:3, Interesting)
You'd make a bigger dent in energy usage by putting solar water heaters on your own home and the homes of several friends. They have a much more direct energy cycle and a much shorter payback period, and they're just as silent and unobtrusive as photovoltaic.
Personally I hate fluorescent lights; they give me eyestrain and headaches, so I won't put them in all the fixtures in a room. If there's already daylight or incandescent light in a room, a CFL fixture works well as "fill-in" lighting, but never as the only source. YMMV.
Other important steps would be to consolidate servers (VMware can help) and put as much as possible onto low-power PCs. I can't find a good CPU comparison table of FLOPs per watt, but such data should be easy to compile.
I wonder about the embodied energy in LCD monitors, are they as expensive to produce, energy-wise, as photovoltaics? Large semiconductor devices of any sort are pretty tricky to manufacture. If anyone has this data, please link it.
Re:There are other ways, but... (Score:2)
Pentium/Celeron M Dothan > Pentium/Celeron M Banias > Turion 64 MT series > Mobile Sempron 90nm > Mobile Athlon 64/Sempron and Turion 64 ML series > Sempron > Athlon 64 DTR > Athlon 64 > Northwood P4 > Athlon 64 FX > Prescott P4 > Athlon 64 X2 > Pentium D
That's, of course, rough estimates off the top of my head. VIA says that their C7 kicks Pent
California Bill for Solar Energy (Score:2)
You might want to put yout 12K into an eco-friendly mutual fund for a year or so to see if that pans out, then invest it into solar panels.
Let's hear it for Arnie trying to appear a little green before the next election.
pay back periods (Score:1)
Re:pay back periods (Score:2)
When I lose power the only time it sucks is night-time... and then I use an eco-friendly "candle"
Honestly, all this eco-crap makes me sick. It is all B.S. that makes people with too much money feel good about themelves. Gee... dive a Prius it only is packed to the gills with hazardous batteries... but never mind that, it's so ec
Re:pay back periods (Score:1)
My solar is *very* p
Re:pay back periods (Score:2)
Let me ask you a question: If everyone drove a Toyota Prius, in 5 years or so when the batteries stop ho
OK I get it now (Score:1)
No (Score:2)
Best way to help this problem (Score:2)
While not impacting the bill of a single house very much the larger impact with a large system across the country would impact our energy usage as a whole.
Phase 1 could just be 2x2" embedded cells in shingles that go back to the recovery system until they could develop cells that could wit
buy a used VW TDI (Score:2)
Re: Help me win a free PSP! (Score:1)
Easy Money . . . (Score:2)
First, measure the distance from your nearest neighbor's outdoor power outlet. Splice the two power cords so that combined they are long enough to reach from your neighbor's outlet to your connection to the grid. Be sure to splice so that both ends are male, so you can plug it in at both ends.
Next, on the next new moon, go out with your spade and slice a trench from your grid po
Re:OT but on a side note... (Score:2)
Don't drink and park...
accidents cause people.
There could be an answer here for your mysterious step 3.