Back and Forth Between Qwerty and Dvorak? 624
jamesh asks: "I'm interested in switching over to an alternate keyboard layout, probably Dvorak, before I begin to suffer any effects of RSI. I'm almost 30 and have been typing since I was about 8, and these days spend most of my workday in front of a computer, typing away at a keyboard. I've searched the Internet and most people's comments are that within a few months they were up to or faster than their previous speed, with better accuracy. I'm mostly a programmer, but I do spend time at client sites and do need to spend time at various users computers to have a look at whatever hole they've dug themselves into, and so I will need to switch between QWERTY and Dvorak mode fairly frequently.
What others have found when switching back and forth, as required? Can you mentally just flip back between them, or do you 'lose' your QWERTY skills and become 'hunt & peck' when faced with the old keyboard layout?"
Flipping back and forth is fine (Score:2, Insightful)
That said, Dvorak is a poor choice if you're doing any punctuation-heavy programming (perl, C, java, ...). The placement of the braces and continuance operators alone will drive you batty -- Dvorak was designed for a world where you were lucky to use either in a day, rather than several times per line.
Dvorak (Score:5, Insightful)
That said, you might not be quite as good a Qwerty typer as you were originally, just like how learning a new language occasionally introduces a little bit of confusion in your mind. For the most part you're just as proficient though and potentially better off because of what knowing something new (language or keyboard layout).
Re:QWERTY not QWERY (Score:5, Insightful)
For anyone suffering from RSI... (Score:4, Insightful)
An Arguement for Dvorak (Score:3, Insightful)
I wonder if slashdot fans are as tender about linking to Kuro5hin as Kuro5hin fans are about linking to Slashdot. Let's find out.
Re:Go for it! (Score:5, Insightful)
Touch vs. hunt-and-peck (Score:3, Insightful)
It took a good month of practice to get my speed up, and probably a year before it really felt comfortable. I don't remember how long before my wrists felt better. They don't bother me now.
For a while, I think I felt physically a bit worse, because I carried slightly more tension when I was learning. I've had no reason to want to switch back.
Re:Similar scenario (Score:3, Insightful)
I've been using Dvorak for over 2 years now. I seriously doubt it would be any help against RSI, but I find that it is more "relaxed" to type using the Dvorak-layout, as the most-used characters are in the center row of the keyboard. So in that sense, it might make a bit of a difference. Probably, the real causes of RSI are more related to stress and the way you sit behind the computer, or just not taking enough (short) breaks. Just using Dvorak layout is not going to take away any of those "real" causes.
Switching to/from Qwerty will be hard(er) in the beginning, when you just (finally!) got used to Dvorak. It will be easier to switch if there is some time in between, e.g. a coffee break. However, by now I can switch in just a second. In fact, I switched the layout while I typed this paragraph just to make sure for myself that this is actually true
But you will type faster in Dvorak mode after some time (if you rarely use Qwerty, you will type a bit slower than you can now, probably).
Btw. programming in Dvorak-layout has its issues. For one thing, the keybindings Ctrl-C/V/X are messed up (obviously), and characters like [, { , ] and } - which are frequently used in many programming languages (look at any C/C++/Java code!) - are quite far away in the corner of the keyboard layout. And let's better not even begin to mention things like 'vi' here (you think using the hjkl-keys for cursor navigation is hard to use/remember? Well, try it in Dvorak mode sometime...)
Re:Dvorak (Score:2, Insightful)
You sound like a guy who's never lived overseas.
A few months speaking only Spanish leaves me feeling toungue-tied in English. Even now, after years back in the US, I sometimes come to a complete halt when the only thing that occurs to me is a Spanish idiom without a good English match. From what I hear from exchange students and the like, this is a pretty common problem.
For me at least, it even happens with regional English variants. Living in Australia has permanently slowed down my spelling for a surprising number of words [xpdnc.com]. And after years in California, I'll need surgery to get "dude" out of my vocabulary.
Layout isn't important. (Score:5, Insightful)
What I find interesting is that pianists tend to not have RSI or carpal tunnel, even though their repertoire might primarily be Chopin. They do get arthritis, though that's usually from age and a matter of nutrition. But for a pianist, posture is extremely important in producing the right sounds. Wrist and forearm strength is necessary for dynamics. As well, having excellent control of their strength is very important. Of all these things, I think both the posture, and the way power generation is spread throughout the arm accounts for why pianists aren't as prone to RSI.
Power isn't really something we are in control of, as no one really wants their keyboard to be the length of an upright, or even close. I doubt anyone would like their keyboards to type like a piano either. The largest discouragement would be the necessari investment in developing agility and strength in their hands just to type up a 2-page essay.
As I mentioned before, posture is something we are fully in control of. And for those of us who are physically lazy (read: those of us who sit on our asses all day
Of course, if the special keyboards are too expensive, just type using only one or two fingers. That moves most of the stress to the forearms though perhaps at the cost of speed.
Re:QWERTY not QWERY (Score:3, Insightful)
Back when I studied Latin, I could converse in it. My vocabulary was never large, about 10k words, but that's pretty much the core of a language that you need to be able to talk to someone else in it.
I maintained this ability for about the 3 years I actively studied it. Now, about 8 years later, I can no longer converse in Latin, and it takes me a few moments to be able to say anything in it, and my 'on demand' vocabulary has dropped to maybe three or four hundred words, tops. I can still translate from Latin to English, as I recongise most of the words I used to know, however, the ability does go away without use.
Re:Forget Dvorak (Score:5, Insightful)
There's been research that shows that people who use typing a lot in their lives do not develop RSI in any greater percentage than in those who do not.
Just if you *do* have RSI, the keyboards agrivate it a lot.
If this guy has been typing since he was 8, and he's 30 now, he'll likely not develop RSI.
How does any switch in configuration help? (Score:4, Insightful)
How is using a different layout going to prevent RSI? Isn't the use of ANY keyboard going to be repetitive?
BTW, doesn't most of the pain come from using the mouse at improper angles?
It's all moot if you slouch in your chair or are way above it, start with getting sitting right, then go from there.
Re:Forget Dvorak (Score:3, Insightful)
In this case, the "rebuttal" piece by Liebowitz and Margolis is actually a slightly bizarre triumph of the free market propaganda essay. Needless to say, it's a load of garbage and the value Dvorak is not at all debunked by it. The definitive (objective) study is yet to be done.
There is quite a lot written on the subject back and forth, VHS winning out over BetaMax proving that the free market doesn't always result in the most efficient solution is the usual example of the economic theory that these guys don't believe in.
Google deeper than straightdope. This one's a strange and twisting path.
In my estimation, learning Dvorak makes you do some mental retraining, which is good for your brain. Just like doing everyday tasks with your non-dominant hand, it's is good thing to do to keep your mind active when you're not a kid anymore and your mind stops learning as it once did. So if only for that, Dvorak is worth it.
You can set up Gnome to have the caps-lock key switch between the two key maps. Because you are touch typing, ie without looking at the keyboard, there is no need to buy anything new.
Re:Forget Dvorak (Score:2, Insightful)
A more detailed refutation at http://www.mwbrooks.com/dvorak/dissent.html [mwbrooks.com]
Re:Similar scenario (Score:1, Insightful)
(It goes away real quick if you fall.)
Re:Mod Parent(s) Up! (Score:1, Insightful)
A thing to consider is that it might very well have been the act of switching itself that reduced your RSI, and the layout of the keyboards had little to do with it. IOW you would have felt the same relief if you had switched from Dvorak to QWERTY, or from either to an alphabetic keyboard.
In general it is not the exact motion of the movement that causes RSI, but the fact that you are making the same motion over and over again for extended periods of time.
To compare, I feel reduced anxiety in my arms, wrists and fingers (I don't actually have RSI but like most full-time computer users I do feel the strain after a days work) whenever I buy myself a new mouse or keyboard. And that's not because the new ones are better ergonomically speaking, but just because they are different. After a few weeks to months it will just come back again until I buy my next one. And for keyboards that's not even a different key layout, just another angle or shape of the keys and a different spring below them will already have a reducing effect on the anxiety of the muscles and joints.