The Case for Free WiFi? 576
lgreco writes "Recently I was trying to convince a business man who is about to open an Internet Cafe, to provide WiFi at no charge. I argued about increased business and royalty and proposed that the infrastructure cost these days is reasonable and the recurring cost, along with the amortized payoff of the initial investment, can be recovered by adding a few cents to each beverage, etc. In spite of the numerous discussions on the merits of free WiFi v. paid at coffee shops, restaurants, etc, I was interested in hearing what do you think about the issue and if there are solid examples of successful businesses that offered free WiFi." If you were going to argue for or against this issue, what arguments would you use?
"A lot of proprietors seem to be concerned about the maintenance issue. Not so much about the hardware maintenance than software: auditing etc. Some are also concerned about legal ramifications if their customers are caught downloading music or movies illegally.
I am not aware of any Internet cafe or similar business that got hit by our beloved RIAA but what if their lawyers subpoena a small proprietor for download records? If you are running a shoestring infrastructure with a cable modem with an Airport base station what kind of logs could you possibly proviide? If a kid walks in for a lemonade and starts downloading porn what do you tell the parents when they sent their lawyer to pay you a visit?
It would seem that if you let a provider offer the WiFi service at your place of business for a fee, they can deal with liabilities, maintenance etc, so this is one less thing to worry about when setting up the business. Yet expecting your customers to pay $6-$10/hr for WiFi is so ridiculous and such a turn off for them."
Panera... (Score:5, Informative)
Panera [slashdot.org] has the largest (or one of) free wifi network out there.
I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:2, Funny)
Re:I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:5, Insightful)
The entire article just screams, "I have never owned a business!"
See, the businessman sees this as a potential revenue stream. If he wants to run a successful coffee shop, he is thinking about ways to make money.
Going to businesses that make money is great- because they will be around for a while, and are generally nicer to be in.
The coffee shop owner may be thinking: "I only have seating for 12 people. If 5 people sit here for an hour, sucking up my bandwidth...where will the other customers sit?"
Ever go to a coffee shop in a university town? It sucks. Students claim every table, and spread out their laptops, papers, books, backpacks etc. Then they sit there for hours nursing one drink.
Sure, it is great for the students- but what about the business? A lot of other customers are scared away. There are two coffee shops in the town I work (university town) that I have not stepped foot in for about 3 years, exactly for this reason. Even the local Borders Books suffers from this problem.
Making $3.50 per table every 2 hours will not keep them in business. It's all about getting drinks out the door.
Re:I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:5, Interesting)
-Very good points on the need to look at the hard business "benefits" Very on target.
-No Cafe owner has ever been sued by the RIAA. The RIAA uses lawsuits for marketing; they want to cut off end users, ie reformed 12 year olds in pepsi ads, not cafe owners. There's not alot of "marketing payoff" in expending legal resources on cafe owner ip lawsuits.
-Costs are the $40 a month for a dsl line from the phone co. Modem/Routers rarely wear out under heavy use.
-From my vantage point here in San Francisco working @ a free wireless cafe, prior points aside,I'd say wifi is a mixed bag for cafe owners.
In the spirit of this thread, my favorite cafe discontinued free wifi a few months back because customers "stayed too long." Often these customers stayed w/o continuously buying drinks and food.
Sooo, if you run a cafe that, w/o free wifi, already has hordes of loyal impassioned customers and quick turnover, your business already does what a successful cafe should do (coffee sales being a great driver of profits--$1.50 on 4 cents of supplies). --Don't take the chance that freeloaders like me (I tip very generously) will crowd up those seats for hours.
The ideal application for free wifi is to turn it on only during otherwise slow hours and post those hours prominently. This way you can use it as necc to hopefully drive business.
-Paid wifi: kind of dumb business model. Great if you need it and mainly work at the same place, but #'s of users are usually pretty few. Won't drive revenues for an otherwise flailing cafe.
Hope this helps!
Re:I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:5, Interesting)
I know this technically goes against the "free" part of it all, but it is a way for the system to work and free up the tables of people nursing one drink every 3-4 hours. It would also keep others on the outside of the shop from leeching on the connection as well.
Re:I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:5, Informative)
I think this works out well for everyone.
Re:I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:3, Funny)
I remember reading somewhere that McDonald's had purposefully designed the seating in its restaurants to become uncomfortable after about 10-15 minutes. They don't want people hanging about (and they definitely don't want homeless hanging about. Wendy's has more comfortable seating, and I see homeless in there all the time.)
Re:I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:5, Insightful)
Good job...yes..those are the two (or 3 in the case of Cafe Roma. I don't know which location is worse, but I think the one by campus with the couches that sit out in the rain would be the winner).
My original point was that the businessman was doing what he thought he should be doing, based on his own business plan.
'Free Wi-Fi for Everyone' is not a necessary, or even desirable, part of all coffee shop business plans.
I used to own a print shop. Everyone told me I needed to have copiers, because it was so convenient, etc. etc.
They didn't realize that copiers cost a ton of money, and did not attract the clientele I was looking for. Grandma coming around and making her 10 copies each month was going to do nothing for my sales- yet grandma wanted the same level of service as customers ordering $10,000 of printing.
I made money, and grandma went to go drive my competitors nuts. I was very happy.
Some coffee shops thrive on the people who are going to sit there for hours, while others want to provide a nice atmosphere, but get you out the door a lot quicker.
Find out which ones are making real money, and emulate that.
If you are not opening your coffee shop in order to make money...then just invite your friends over to sit on the porch and drink coffee. You'll have a lot fewer hassles, and lose a lot less money.
Re:I argued about increased business and royalty (Score:3, Insightful)
Everything he said is very true: except in rare cases, just tossing an AP up in your coffee shop isn't going to do anything good for business, assuming the shop already has an established clientele. Especially in an urban area, where people can just sit on the street outside the door and get access, or across the street using a directional antenna, you might not get a single new customer from it.
However, if you are just starting up a business and trying to draw new customers
Re:Panera... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Panera... (Score:3, Insightful)
Moral of the story: Make wi-fi free and charge $10 for a beverage.
Charging $10 for drinks wouldn't be needed. To make it easy for a qick calculation, say the cafe is open 10 hours and sells 50 items an hour. That comes out to 500 items a day, adding 5 cents per item will mean $25 per day or using 30 days per month $750 per month in extra income. On to costs of providing the service. Say a server setup with WiFi is $2000, though an actual system should cost much less. Next is the internet access, aga
Re:Panera... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Panera... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Panera... (Score:5, Interesting)
I think there is a downside to it being free. I'd like to see a simple system where I get 30 minutes free with a drink. Not sure how that would work, but it would keep the free loaders out.
Re:Panera... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Panera... (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree with the downside, especially in some locations. My local coffee/tea shop gives you 30 minutes of time with each drink you order. It's only $2 an hour after that. And they even have about a half dozen repurposed laptops with Ubuntu loaded on them available.
There are a few people that work from there for an hour or two (or more) during the day. They just had a going-away party for a regular who was leaving the country.
freezepeach.org [freezepeach.org]
Re:Panera... (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Panera... (Score:5, Informative)
D-Link [dlink.com] has out of the box wireless access by fee/free/timer/whatever complete with a little printer that gives out a code to put in the gateway web page. A shop owner can give out a ticket for x minutes with a drink purchase or a few extra bucks or whatever scheme you think up. Just hook it up to a business DSL or cable and away you go.
Re:Panera... (Score:5, Funny)
You have to address the "bad customers" problem. (Score:3, Insightful)
But you don't have infinite tables, and somebody sitting on your wifi for an hour with a cup of coffee might be LOOSING you money.
If I could wave a wand and create whatever system I wanted I would have BOTH. This way you get to have the best of both worlds.
A free system that had capped bandwidth (50k, perhaps) and was turned off during periods of peak patronage of the cafe. You start ou
Re:You have to address the "bad customers" problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Even better, since the business name is on the hotspot AP, you'll draw in people from the surrounding businesses over time.
Re:You have to address the "bad customers" problem (Score:3, Insightful)
Being a college student, I know of all the local places that provide free WiFi, and I also know of the places that have net access outside of the actual building, and allow you to use it. These are the places that are consistently busy with people during nice weather, and it is a "free" advertisement for their business.
I'm far more likely to visit a business that is less restrictive (ie free unlimited WiFi) because I never know what kind of work (or play) I will be involved in when I get to
Re:Panera... (Score:4, Insightful)
Without wanting to sound like a drunk, I prefer my free wifi in bars. Goose Island [gooseisland.com] in Chicago and Two Rows [tworows.com] in the DFW Metropex are two great examples.
Re:Panera... (Score:3, Funny)
Though my coding gets pretty sloppy after a few pints of Bass or glasses of wine.
Re:Panera... (Score:2, Interesting)
The model says if you turn over your seats quicker, you make more money.
Internet nets you customers that are there longer, doing work, checking email... and nursing ONE coffee.
Just what I read... no links to back it up
The problem of people who stay too long (Score:3, Funny)
If a coffee shop has a problem with people who stay too long they need to look at what they do at peep shows. They should have a Faraday cage around each seat with a little flap that stays open while you fee
If it is going to be an "Internet Cafe"... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If it is going to be an "Internet Cafe"... (Score:3, Informative)
Additionally I would say if you could do an automatically generated access code for paying customers then it definatly would outwiegh paid WiFi in the long run. Just look at it as this...
$5/hr - maybe 300 people use it all month... $50/Day
1000 beverages a d
Re:If it is going to be an "Internet Cafe"... (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.publicip.net/ [publicip.net]
Very cool.
Re:If it is going to be an "Internet Cafe"... (Score:2, Interesting)
businesspeople will also not be able to log into their corporate VPNs without their laptops or do most business related tasks.
i'll take free wifi any day over terminals
Re:If it is going to be an "Internet Cafe"... (Score:5, Informative)
Free wireless means you maintain just the router, which is generally a "turn on" situation. Everyone brings their own hardware.
I'd say that's a pretty huge difference.
The case against (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd suggest "free WiFi with purchase". Buy something and a WiFi access code is printed on your receipt good for an hour or two. The customers get what they want and the freeloaders can go else where.
Granted, it is a slight hassle for the paying customer, and I'm sure dedicated freeloaders will dig through trash to find half-used access codes (or eventually figure out how you're generating codes), but it's still better than smelly nerds hogging tables for head-to-head D&D play over the access point.
Re:The case against (Score:3, Insightful)
They had an "honor system" before, but it was abused.
Re:The case against (Score:3, Insightful)
Less than a mile from my home is a Dunn Brothers Coffee shop and another mile from that is a Panera. Neither require a purchase to use their network but it's fairly rare to see anyone not at least having a coffee while they're there.
Open it up for all those that enter or suffer the consequences of those that can and do offer it free.
Re:The case against (Score:2)
Re:The case against (Score:2)
So perhaps, once the availability is there the "freeloaders" drop?
Re:The case against (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:The case against (Score:2)
--
Re:The case against (Score:2)
Re:The case against (Score:2)
Given the relatively small number of people who would be using this service at a given time, I wouldn't think it'd be too big a deal to authenticate against a database back end to prevent misuse. The re
Leaches (Score:4, Insightful)
The problem with codes or any sort of regulation of the access is that it creates a support problem. So you're slinging coffee and somebody gets a code that doesn't work. Now you have to take time away from making coffee and worry about tech support. It doesn't take too many things like that to screw up the cost/benefit of it. Does your barista know how to fix a WiFi network? Probably not.
Free WiFi became a popular concept because people don't demand much from a free service. If they log on and it doesn't work or it's slow they won't complain because they didn't pay for it. Those who can cope with it will use it and be happy, those who can't don't become a burden to you.
A simple solution (Score:5, Interesting)
You'll find this is true at the larger free wifi providers like Panera. You can use their wifi for only as long as your battery holds out at which point you can still sit and stare at a blank screen if you so desire.
A way to implement this: Zyxel access point (Score:3, Informative)
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,1759,1650238,00.as p [pcmag.com]
http://www.zyxel.com/product/model.php?indexcate=1 060053881&indexcate1=1085450334&indexFlagvalue=102 1876859 [zyxel.com]
Free Wi-Fi? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Free Wi-Fi? (Score:2)
Observations at a local Coffeeshop (Score:4, Interesting)
The owner initially set-up a "pay as you go" internet connection, where you could either use his computers, or he'd give you a temporary username/ password to access his wireless router. Initially, this worked well for him, as he was the first Coffeeshop in the area to offer internet access. As time went on and other Coffeeshop's started to offer "free" internet (to draw in people), I noticed the volume of people diminished. At that point he made the decision to offer "free" internet for those with wireless laptops, yet continued to charge if you opted to use his computers. I personally feel with all the free WiFi Access Points you're going to have a hard time finding someone who will pay.
One thing to keep in mind if you decide to offer "free" internet is you're going to get people who campout on their laptops and take up table space for hours at a time. Some people even stay there all damn day like it's their personal office space. This might lend itself to loss of business from patrons just wanting a quick cappuccino or dessert and having no seats available. I'd make sure to designate certain tables with time limits or as "No Internet." Good luck!
Re:Observations at a local Coffeeshop (Score:3, Insightful)
If I end up on the internet for an extended period of time at a coffeeshop/cafe, I generally make it a practice to keep buying drinks. It generally keeps the people running the place happy.
Re:Observations at a local Coffeeshop (Score:3, Interesting)
A valid concern, to be sure. If one goes as far as giving out temporary usernames/passwords with the purchase of items, you could combat this by having the logons expire after a certain period of time. That way, they'd have to keep buying to stay online (at leas
Re:Observations at a local Coffeeshop (Score:2, Insightful)
No tickets, recipts, servers, tech support or other crap to deal with.
I think a lot of people overlook this most obvious answer. That is asking the people in your shop that if they aren't going to buy anything, make room for someone who will.
Re:Observations at a local Coffeeshop (Score:4, Insightful)
I'm guessing that most people (myself included) go to coffee shops mainly to hang out there. Anyone who owns/runs a coffeeshop knows that table space is their critical asset, and they probably measure revenue in $/table-hour rather than by the product they sell. Therefore, why not rent the table space, and sell your coffee at a reduced or nominal fee? That way, anything that people do there is paid for, WiFi access included.
Of course, you'd have to resolve the sensitive issue of how to gently remind people that their time is up (or to pay for an additional hour). Perhaps an electric shock of progressive severity, or metal spikes rising out of the chair, would do nicely...
Let them know the cons, too. (Score:2)
Here's my (evil) argument (Score:4, Insightful)
No Case. (Score:2)
My Wife (Score:3, Funny)
common carrier? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:common carrier? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:common carrier? (Score:2)
I think that's why providers of WiFi should set up some kind of authentication system with customers' real names...it would give them some level of protection.
Re:common carrier? (Score:3, Insightful)
On a side note, if a local ISP were able to find a way to make money off a free WiFi connection (earlier comments mention a proxy server replacing all banner ads), they would be able to absolve small shops of any
Re:common carrier? (Score:3, Insightful)
Busts have included charges under the 'Ecstasy Awareness Act' (2003 H.R. 2962), or even RICO charges. Mind you,
Re:common carrier? (Score:3, Insightful)
Which is why it's so important to have legislation that shields people like manufacturers from the actions of their products' users. It doesn't occur to too many people to sue GM over the actions of a drunk driver, but political correctness makes it attractive to sue, say, gun makers when someone decides to commit a crime. There's legislation pending right now to prevent frivalous suits like that, and we can only hope that equ
Incresed buisnes outways the cost (Score:4, Informative)
Just let him try it (Score:2)
charging != no liability (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:charging != no liability (Score:2)
Arguments Against (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember that you're likely to attract businessy types too busy to do anything but work during lunch, or student/cheap types too cheap to pay for highspeed access themselves (and therefore, unlikely to spend $30 a month on coffee). Is this really the atmosphere you want in your business?
It also depends what type of netcafe you're opening. There are netcafes primarily for gaming, and those primarily for getting a cup of coffee while surfing the net. I've worked in one where people are basically gaming straight up, and the atmosphere is radically different than the local coffee shop.
If you want a social, living coffeeshop, I'd say cut off the internet access. People go to a coffeeshop to relax with friends, listen to jazz, or curl up in a comfy chair with a big book. As much of a netaholic as I am, there has to be a balance somewhere.
Re:Arguments Against (Score:5, Interesting)
in my student experience, it was the other way around. i could afford to either have a high speed connection or buy coffee and hang out the coffee shop regularly. with the coffee shops offering free wifi, it was no longer either/or, so i opted to ditch the high-speed at home and just go to the coffee shop.
Re:Arguments Against (Score:3, Insightful)
BAH! I don't know if I can disagree with this more. The coffeeshop that I frequent has all of the above AND a good number of customers who get online. There is almost NO gaming and NO JAZZ.
It's not a beatnick hangout for those with receding hairline po
$6-$10/hr? (Score:4, Interesting)
If he's concerned with freeloaders, have the cash register print out a code on the receipt that you can enter into a nocat captive portal to authenticate against a RADIUS server. Give them an hour for each purchase, for instance. Tie the code to single MAC address, etc.
But consider the cost of integrating your cash register, running the server, dealing with the tech support, etc. vs. the cost of sticking a WRT54G on a wire and letting a few freeloaders on the 'net.
Re:$6-$10/hr? (Score:2)
Re:$6-$10/hr? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:$6-$10/hr? (Score:3, Informative)
EWRT Linux http://www.portless.net/menu/ewrt/ [portless.net] and the hotspot-zone project http://sourceforge.net/projects/hotspot-zone/ [sourceforge.net]. Both use nocat as the captive portal, the later offers radius authentication patches for nocat.
Excellent example, but a double-edged sword... (Score:4, Interesting)
There's a flipside to this, though. It's no secret that in some cases, coffee shops that offer free wifi end up with nothing more than wifi freeloaders, who go in, power up and sit down to work without ordering a thing. I honestly don't know how the flip comes about, but Tryst doesn't do anything to require that people purchase, it just takes care of itself. Part of it could be the quality of their food and drink...their coffee is just unbelievable. It's Seattle-good, to put it as a couple of my friends from there did.
Re:Excellent example, but a double-edged sword... (Score:4, Informative)
However, Tryst is hands down the best hang-out coffee shop in the city, and perhaps even on the eastern seaboard.
Nice to see another DC
It's more profitable to make it free (Score:2)
noted that the added cost of administering and accounting for a pay wifi site ($30) versus a free site ($6) made the profit very difficult. In comparison a free site was cheap enough to easily make a net profit from the increased traffic it drew.
So simply show then the money.
Advertising (Score:2)
Well (Score:2)
I assume this guy is probably planning to sell snacks/drinks/coffee to bolster his bottom line, but let's not forget that his business is not a coffee shop. Approaching this like Panera Bread or even the local mom and pop coffee place isn't necessarily the most intelligent way to go.
Additionally, I
Liability is a major concern (Score:2, Interesting)
Major hassle. Not to mention that the coffee shop will basically be an ISP. There will be users screwing the local network up with viruses, users who can't figure out how to get on and want help...all of which
Off the top of my head (Score:2)
Argument for: The control systems and maintenance required to make sure people are paying for their WiFi connection probably cost more than any additional revenue you can get from it. I know if I had a laptop, I'd keep looking until I found a place with open access, just to avoid the hassle.
World Cup (Score:2)
simple (Score:2)
Why make it free when 90% of people would pay $1/day for it?
Maybe if you have regulars, you could offer discounts, like $0.25/day, but the idea here is just like with music downloads: people will pay for it, just not a lot.
Free access (Score:2)
Peace
Retailer Mentality (Score:2)
I'm guessing the guy isn't technically savvy either if you had to explain the whole wireless thing to him.
Other Retailers:
The average coffee retailer may not be so sophisticated as to understand loss-leader pricing. Loss-leading is a financial disaster if it isn't executed well. This might lead to the camping-out characters.
It seems simple to most
Free loaders tear it all down (Score:2)
I would have no problem paying $1-$2 for a few hours of access on top of buying an espresso drink, and I can't really say that our local Sta
Why pay, when "linksys" and "default" are free? (Score:5, Insightful)
What I've done, instead, is ride my bike around to find coffee shops which either provide free access, or which are near or beneath offices with "default" or "linksys" WAPs without passwords.
In fact, it's gotten to the point that I know off the top of my head about a half-dozen free WAPs in my area which I can use. I see no reason to pay for access when I can just ride my bike down the street to a place where the inept sysadmins don't know any better.
In fact, at one of these coffee shops, ( Caribou Coffee, Pennsyvania Ave & 17th ) there was at one point so many unsecured WAPs that I had to use the "Air Traffic Control" Dashboard widget to select the one I wanted, since there were, literally, four WAPs named "linksys" running on ( I think ) channel 11. The Airport menu bar selector didn't work very well in that situation.
Charging for wireless is basically a fool's errand. Few will use it, and, I have to assume, you'll be lucky to make up the outlay for the service, unless you roll your own billing machanism.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Why pay, when "linksys" and "default" are free? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sheesh. What sort of dork downloads things on their laptop directly? Real dorks use the web interfaces for eMule or ABC to tell their computer(s) at home on the real internet connection to do the downloading. Who wants to sit around a coffee shop waiting for a download to finish before they can leave?
Same as case for free road system. (Score:2)
Some stores, offer free internet to customers, because it is relativly inexpensive, draws customers in, and differentiates them from the competition.
Some cities are starting to offer free internet for the same reasons. It is relativly inexpensive to offer, and draws the interests of potiental residents and businesses. This is similar to why a city
Squatters (Score:2)
I think a system that worked like the gas-station car wash would be best. With every purchase (or every $8.00 spent) you get a code worth 1 hour of access time.
Here's an idea (Score:2)
Simple (Score:2)
From there, have all traffic in or out be logged. The traffic won't be that high, really. Set up a spare box with a Dual-Layer DVD burner and a nice sized hard drive to hold the logs. Burn stuff off any time you have the 9.5 GB (or however big
ValuePoint has a neat feature for this (Score:2, Informative)
Anyway, seems like a reasonable solution
Transaction costs (Score:2)
Some people have a hard time with "giving (it) away" but when they try charging for (it) they end up spending a fortune on lockdown tools, auditing, system maintenance, cashier time, customer delays getting coffee, etc. Never mind the good/ill will issue, it's just difficult to justify at a basic cost-of-doing-business level.
Leachers (Score:2)
I'd recommend a "free" connection tied to a minimum purchase price with a maximum time limit. That'd keep real customers happy and get rid of the leaches.
Simple: Give him a WiFi AP (Score:5, Informative)
I own a cafe with free Wi-Fi (Score:5, Insightful)
Internet cafe? I want an Internet BAR! (Score:3, Insightful)
Resource Suckers (Score:2)
Re:Would you have to card users? (Score:2)
Re:More expensive coffee? (Score:2)
Re:Many smaller cafe's are removing WiFi (Score:3, Interesting)
Other cafes are cutting access only at high-traffic times. When you can fill your seats without it - say, Saturdays, why not? But when you can fill otherwise empty seats with it, why not? People partly come to see other people - the hard core coffee drinkers have espresso machines at home after all. So if wifi gets people there to be watched, even if there's no direct profit from them t