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GNU is Not Unix Linux Business

A Linux Users Group for Professionals? 59

Posted by Cliff from the beyond-hobbyism dept.
ir0b0t asks: "I'm a lawyer in a solo divorce practice in Missoula, Montana. I have migrated my office to OpenOffice, Firefox, Thunderbird and Sunbird but want to do more Open Source, yet I have issues that come up nearly every day. The problems I encounter are often unique to running a small law practice. Coders sometimes give me blank looks when I describe what I need. Other lawyers tend to automatically use proprietary solutions and show little interest in Open Source alternatives. I want to eventually use only Open Source code in my office. I am willing to do my homework. Are there others like me out there? Is there a Linux Users Group or other online forum for professionals like me who want more Open Source solutions for our work? Thanks."
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A Linux Users Group for Professionals? More

A Linux Users Group for Professionals?

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  • Eh (Score:1)

    by Daxster ( 854610 )
    Wouldn't all LUGs apply to that category? They would consist of people looking for open-source solutions, and *should* contain professionals of some sort..
    Same with linux forums.
    • LUGs are great, but speaking from experience in my hometown (Chicago, IL) it is very hard to find ACTIVE LUGs, and the active ones out there are generally not focused on end-user or business-specific issues. I've met some great people and learned a lot from them, but I fear that the learning went one way - I picked up a lot of LINUX info, just listening to these people, but when the conversation went to areas I actually knew something about (small business budgeting, end-user training / interface) the inter

  • PJ at groklaw might be able to help (Score:5, Informative)

    by grattwood ( 533456 ) on Monday August 08, 2005 @07:36PM (#13274637) Homepage
    PJ over at http://groklaw.net/ [groklaw.net] might be able to help, or point you to peolple who are doing this. I think she is planning a Linux LiveCD for lawyers.

  • Groklaw (Score:4, Informative)

    by neillewis ( 137544 ) on Monday August 08, 2005 @07:38PM (#13274644)
    http://groklaw.net/ [groklaw.net] has had some discussion about OSS for lawyers in the past, particularly around WordPerfect import/export issues (WP still having something of a stronghold in legal circles) ... there must be some lawyers out there with the same issues as you, and if there isn't a LawLUG why not start one?

    Good luck.
    • The issues that arise with WordPerfect are a good example of the sort of problem that faces lawyers who need to work in heavily formatted documents.

      As soon as you switch to Open Office, you need to start dealing with all of the WordPerfect attachments other lawyers send you. If its a document you need to edit and return the same day, using Open Office becomes questionable very fast.

      Ditto when you go to print a label for an envelope on Open Office, and it won't line up correctly. At that point, you d
  • This sounds to me like a great idea, I know I'd join such a group. Unfortunately I have no idea if such things exist. If they do, likely they can be found out about at a local post-secondary institution or computer service shop.

    Why not start you own? If you happen to live in Calgary, I'd gladly help you do it.

    • Do people not read the actual post anymore? He blatantly states that he lives in Missoula Montana. According to Mapquest, that's nearly 8 hours away.

  • Not everything can be solved by open source (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Alpha27 ( 211269 ) on Monday August 08, 2005 @07:42PM (#13274675)
    Depending on what you do, and what software you need, you can't migrate everything to open source, and that's a fact you have to accept, only if you haven't accepted it yet. I only mention it that way, because you did not.

    The main issues include:

    - a standard application that "everyone" uses, in the industry you are in, is not supported on Linux. ie: mortgage brokers who use a particular set of programs to create and process applications.

    - some industry applications require proprietary software to run. ie: Realtors who use the online MLS listing who need IE to access the website.

    - a bigger issue is learning curve. If I know an application really well, and I'm effective in what I do with it, why should I have to learn a new application?

    - some open source applications can't do all the features as the proprietary application I use. this is a fact in a number of cases. What are you going to do, add the features to the open source version until they are all in there? Unfortunately, that's not always a feasible approach.

    The good news is, there are open source solution for common things, like web browsing, email, group tasks, filesharing and printing, many of the common tasks you can do in an office.

    The easiest transitions you can make is usually on the server side (web server, email, filesharing), the stuff that's pretty transparent to users. Then you can migrate users on the client side, slowly, and with applications where they can gain an advantage on. Transitioning to open source, for the sake of open source is not a reason to do it. As long as you provide enough reason, and suitable solutions, you will have a good chance with users switching.
    • I would disagree to the extent that

      1) There are ASP solutions fill your needs (a la Salesforce.com)
      2) Wine can solve some problems
      3) Terminal Server can solve other problems

      If all else fails post a project on rentacoder. Its amazing how much php $500 can buy you.
      • Actually you're not disagreeing with me, since my argument was more about issues to think about, and how it applies to some cases, not all.

        - Wine can't solve some dependencies like DirectX 9.

        - Terminal Server is not really a solution if your goal is to go to an open source solution, it's just another layer. If you have to use a Terminal Server for a single application, maybe they should just stay on the Windows platform (or Mac for those where Mac applies), depending on the amount of time they spend it, tho
        • I think the original poster of the article is looking for solutions. Not additional problems.

          From your earlier post - you obviously think that windows is the only solution [slashdot.org].

          "You'd be surprised how many people just do not consider Macs an option. You need a computer, it's strictly PC and Windows, nothing else. So with the masses, I would say Mac is not an option, unless they are a little more savvy."

          Terminal Server is a great solution for apps like accounting software as is vmware with an old win95 license. C
          • I don't think this guy is either ... Just a realist about how you have to do things with clients when you are consulting. I'd love all my clients to at least use FireFox and some open source mail or webmail, but some of my clients think outlook+exchange is god.
          • Microsoft evangelist? Wow, I haven't been so insulted in quite some time. =)

            I'm actually a Linux loving, LAMP Web Developer who runs Linux at home, the office, and on my web sites. My postings have been from my linux machine. Would be nice if slashdot had a feature to record that, so that comments like yours would appear funnier to all, than to just the individual you are refering to. =)

            But I also know when to hold them, and know when the fold them.

            Yes, as others have pointed out, you *can* solve everything
        • Over the last few months, there seems to be a *MASSIVE* up-tick in either the general /. opinion of Microsoft and it's products, or someone at Microsoft has decided on targeting /. for a bit of good ole fashion astroturfing. Funny, as I was recently forced from Win2k up to WinXP and work, and I've had nothing but problems since (so, at least for me, that makes me believe that their products aren't getting any better, so maybe it's that green stuff after all!?) Can I just make these guys "-1 Astroturfer" i
          • We, the employees at Microsoft's astroturfing department, absolutely protest this!
            Our jobs require us to only *guide* the misdirected unto a path that leads to Microsoft
            solutions, that's all.
    • "you can't migrate everything to open source"

      Well, yes, you can.

      The issue is whether a given operation can AFFORD to do so on their own.

      The answer is to get together with others, form an industry OSS group, then get some developers who work in that industry interested in doing the work.

      By the way, let's be clear:

      "Realtors who use the online MLS listing who need IE to access the website."

      No, they DON'T need IE - they need a browser that does EXACTLY the same thing as IE vis-a-vis that site. Not the same thin

      • Well, no you can't migrate everything to Open Source. Yes, you could write the code, for sure, but nothing is in isolation; if you have an industry that's not interested in having its tools play nicely with others then interoperability is just not going to happen.

        The thing to keep sight of here is that you are doing this for a reason. The reason, if you are running a business, is that there is some cost or benefit advantage to your doing it. If you stand to gain some advantage from it then you should do

        • "if you have an industry that's not interested in having its tools play nicely with others then interoperability is just not going to happen."

          Well, the whole point of the current SOA push in IT is to change that. Yes, they accept that the back-end stuff isn't going to be changed - but they put in front-end stuff so it doesn't matter until they can afford to migrate the back-end stuff.

          I know there are companies sitting on thirty-year-old COBOL code who will undoubtedly go out of business before they try to c
          • I do believe that these interoperability problems can and will be solved. Five years ago, I couldn't tell a cpu from a computer case. I know a lot more now thanks to helpful hackers. It may take time, but it will be done.

          • "Like I said, there are a variety of ways to deal with the issue. All it takes is some imagination and willingness to invest some short-term effort and expense for long-term gain."

            Absolutely, with you 100% on that one. Unfortunately, some of the sectors in question just have way too much entrenched interest and inertia. Even if you are forming alliances and collaborating with others, sometimes it could be that the cost-benefit payoff just doesn't justify the effort. But believe me, there's

    • Smaller offices are good places to model solutions and work out bugs. The fixes that work can then be scaled for the larger offices that are more restricted by the problems you mention.

  • Look! Look! A Lawyer! (Score:5, Funny)

    by bill_mcgonigle ( 4333 ) * on Monday August 08, 2005 @07:45PM (#13274697) Homepage Journal
    I've been advocating for a little shark icon to go next to the Friend/Foe/Subscriber icons so everybody can stop writing 'IANAL, but...' but everytime I bring it up, somebody has to post, "but there aren't any lawyers on Slashdot".

    So, may ir0b0t [slashdot.org] be the proud first bearer of 'The Shark'.
    • I like the idea of lawyers getting a special icon but couldn't it be a fountain pen or a scale instead of a shark?

      The lawyers that practice that way are far fewer and further in between than people think. I also believe that shark behavior does not make particularly effective lawyer behavior.

      But if it was the shark or nothing I might have to reconsider since it would be really cool to get a special lawyer icon on slashdot.

  • Spend money and complain (Score:3, Informative)

    by t482 ( 193197 ) on Monday August 08, 2005 @08:24PM (#13274946) Homepage
    Honestly one of the best ways to change the situation is to spend money and complain to the developers - open source or not.

    A friend of mine has a company that supports about 8 or 10 law firms. All use more or less amounts of linux (mostly on the backend).

    For example many lawyers use time tracking software such as time matters [timematters.com] a time tracking and billing package that is windows based.

    Postgresql is the database in the back end that Time matters supports. The performance is poor compared with MS SQL Server - mostly due to poor coding. What do you do? Call them up and complain.
    It runs mostly under wine on the desktop, or typically we have it run under terminal server.

    I would also have a look at www.osafoundation.org/ [osafoundation.org] which will eventually produce a platform to do something like which you probably want to do. That is, easily customize your contact, scheduler and email system.

    Another solution I've seen firms use in linux is based on Lotus Domino/Notes. Proprietary but runs in Linux. Often you can get 10 licenses bundled if you buy a new or used IBM server.

  • MS, SCO, and a whole lot of very credible journalists have clearly stated there is so such thing as professional Linux. It's all just a bunch of long haired, teen age hax0rs living in their parents basement writing viruses to take down capitalism! Oh yeah don't forget commies and pirates!

    **Disclaimer** This post was a joke, please mod accordingly.

  • Debian-lex (Score:5, Informative)

    by philipsblows ( 180703 ) on Monday August 08, 2005 @08:31PM (#13274984) Homepage
    Debian-Lex is an internal project to develop Debian into an operating system that is particularly well fit for the requirements for legal offices. The goal of Debian-Lex is a complete system for all tasks in legal practice which is built completely on free software.

    I subscribed to the debian lex mailing list a while ago out of curiosity. I can't say I know much more having subscribed, but perhaps there are some subscribers there with other specific ideas or answers to your question. No guarantees. Oh, IANAL.

    Debian-lex Project Page [debian.org]

    A link to the mailing list archive-- with a couple of messages from this month!-- can be found among other bits of info there.

  • You should write your own software if your law-firm-specific needs aren't already addressed by OSS. If you can't do that, you should pay someone to develop it for you. Otherwise, you should shut the fuck up and go back to windows you parasitic n00b!

    I don't agree with those comments, but that tends to be a common reaction. Nobody ever stops to think that the needs of one person might actually be the needs of many other people, too and that by addressing the needs of that one person they could be addressing t
    • I know the parent poster was a troll, but why are you harassing a lawyer who's actually FOR open source? We have enough of them attacking OSS and patents and all that other crap, so what this one is "giving back" to the community is being a consumer who likes Linux, as opposed to Windows. Maybe he should go back on Windows, and because of bitter guys like you ruining his day, he can help the fight against linux.
      • Thanks for this comment. There is growing interest in the open source movement among lawyers. I attended the ABA Equal Justice Conference this year, and there was one session devoted to "saving money" with software options that included a discussion of open source code. Its a start.

        The Legal Services Corporation spends thousands each year on proprietary code but is actively exploring open source alternative. I would much rather that grant money went to open source coders than proprietary licenses.
  • ...but you will get a bill for $300 per hour for it.

  • Money talks... (Score:3, Insightful)

    by oliverthered ( 187439 ) <oliverthered@hotmail. c o m> on Monday August 08, 2005 @09:36PM (#13275310) Journal
    There are are a lot of OSS apps out there that may be usefull to your business but be missing a key feature. Why not offer up bounty to get the features that you would like to see implemented, you could even get together with some other law firms and be able to offer a reasonable bounty to get the software you would like (I'm sure a few K won't hurt a law firms wallets too much (-:)
  • "Coders sometimes give me blank looks when I describe what I need."

    I'm a programmer by profession. My sincere apologies on behalf of the coders and thank you for using open source software.

    Please contact a near by Linux consultant
    http://www.thelinuxreview.com/ldp/consultants.lxp [thelinuxreview.com]

  • As a fellow Montanan... (Score:5, Informative)

    by USSJoin ( 896766 ) on Monday August 08, 2005 @11:03PM (#13275772) Homepage
    I understand the problem you're going through; let's face it, most people look at you with a blank stare anytime you say *anything* related to computers.

    That said, I worked on the migration of a firm in Billings, MT to OSS. What we found was that there really *is* no replacement for the capstone software, Amicus Attorney, and I couldn't even make it run on Crossover. So we use OpenOffice instead of MS, and Firefox/Thunderbird, but are forced into Windows for one app (usual story). Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but the legal field just isn't interested in Linux, *because* the big firms (like the Washington Big 10, for instance) are IP lawyers, so they're *defending* Microsoft etc. Tacky to use the competition, it seems.

    If you have no need for Amicus, then what software, really, do you need? PM me, we can discuss the issue.
    • I'd be interested in that discussion as well, as per my own ask slashdot article on this very topic about a year ago ( http://ask.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=04/09/07/2 2 7252 [slashdot.org] ).

      I think that maybe what needs to happen here is for someone to start a project for an OSS legal time billing app, possibly building on something like sql-ledger [sql-ledger.org]

      Because I'm still having to troubleshoot PCLaw for my dad and it grows tiresome :-)

      -Leigh

      ps. feel free to email leigh [at] hypatia.ca rather than PMing
      • I've talked with friends and my brother about this very project. I became used to using Amicus Attorney (similar to PC Law) but have now gone cold turkey off of all proprietary code except XP. I've vowed to use pen and legal pad until I can find open source code that works better.

        I can't tell you how badly I miss being able to select my time, client info and activity code *one* time from pull-down menus instead of entering it all twice manually. I would happily settle for now for a format that woul

  • I think your focus is wrong. Instead of thinking "OSS for Pros", you should be thinking "Lawyers who love Linux". As you said, the legal practice has particular issues that you've had difficulty solving. I don't imagine that an association that included investment bankers, restauranters, and vehicle mechanics would do you much good, even though they all used linux in the course of their business.

    Instead, you need something specific to the legal industry, even specific vertical applications. For that I t

  • Business Forum (Score:4, Informative)

    by OSXCPA ( 805476 ) on Tuesday August 09, 2005 @08:07AM (#13277388) Journal
    Try this - http://www.smallbizgeeks.com/phpBB2/ [smallbizgeeks.com] They are pretty active and there are good forums, some of which may interest you.
  • This lawyer [lamlaw.com] is a strong open source advocate who posts regular updates on SCO and other issues. He might be someone you would be interested in contacting.
  • Trouble is that your 'professionals' will most likely be as clueless as you are. You'll probably find a stinky kid there who never sees the light of day who will fix you up for pizza (and beer if he's old enough). Take one on as an 'intern' of sorts and you'll learn what you need to know.
  • I work in a small law firm, two attorneys, three when I take the bar. We have done the same thing as you, I have switched our office to Firefox, Thunderbird, and we are migrating to Sun Star Office (old Wordperfect files make OpenOffice impracticle). We practice mainly bankruptcy so we have a proprietary software package for putting together the federal forms(it does run in Wine, though the programers didn't believe me). The only thing I can see that we are missing is case management software, that is ba
    • working on starting a case management software project. email me at leigh [at] hypatia.ca for more info... we need people in the states to be involved as I'm only familiar with the canadian legal system.

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