What's the Point of IT Certifications? 1100
erica_ann asks: "Fact: You can have the knowledge without having to pay to be Certified when it
comes to computers. Another fact: Just because you have the certification does not mean you actually
know the material as well as someone who is not certified. You might just be good at taking tests.
So what is the point of getting IT Certifications? To have a piece of paper?"
"I have had this conversation with many friends and co workers. One thing I like
out of all the conversations is getting more than just one point of view. I know
my standpoint on it. I
rambled on it for quite a while. But, what I would like to ask of everyone on Slashdot, is what is your opinion? Do you have certifications? Was it worth getting certified? How do employers, employees and management feel about them? Do you pay for them? Does the company pay for them? Is it worth being certified if you do not get a pay raise for it? What certifications bring more
than others? Are specialized more employable than general certifications?
I think many people would benefit from hearing more than one side of the controversy. Maybe it will encourage more employers to reward for certifications. Maybe it will help the next person attain the career he or she wants. Is there such thing as being TOO certified for a job?
Or is the whole idea of getting alphabet soup behind your name just certifiably insane?"
depends on expereince (Score:5, Interesting)
I used to be one of those few IT guys who had a completely unrelated degree (architecture). However I somehow managed to procure enough experience that I really didn't need all the certificates (MSCE A+ etc.) I also know of many others in the same boat. However if your lacking experience then certification is a good way to get people to take a chance on you.
A Few Thoughts: (Score:5, Interesting)
Fact: You can have the knowledge without having to pay to be Certified when it comes to computers.
This was exactly my situation before I learned (to my chagrin) that most employers simply won't take you seriously unless you throw the alphabet soup at them.
Another fact: Just because you have the certification does not mean you actually know the material as well as someone who is not certified.
Again, something I'm uncomfortably familiar with, having to work with more than one 'paper MCSE' in the past...
So what is the point of getting IT Certifications? To have a piece of paper?
You got it. Unfortunately, that piece of paper is the only way non-technically-minded individuals have to gauge your technical prowes, so they tend to attach unreasonable worth to them.
This isn't a problem...it's an opportunity. "Turn the problem on its head...that's what the Bishop always said..." (apologies to Harry Harrison).
Most people in the IT field are good test takers...if you don't think of yourself as a good test taker, you probbly haven't worked hard enough at it. In a world where you will be judged all too often by your alphabet soup, test taking is a skill you must master. Myself, I've only studied for exams from books, rather than take expensive classes, commonly take about 20 minutes to finish a certification exam, and I haven't failed one yet. Am I that much of a genius? Heck no...I just test well, that's all.
To my mind, the key to testing well (as well as actually coming away with knowledge you can useon the job), is to actually understand the material, rather than simply know the answers by rote. When you can answer the practice questions without looking at the multiple choice answers, and understand why your answer is correct, you're ready.
CYA (Score:5, Interesting)
At least that's how I hear it from friends. Personally, I'd rather throw out oddball questions that most people won't expect from a manager and see if they actually know how to do what they claim they can -- or can at least think through the process. I'd rather have a competent tech or programmer than a certified one, but if you're not a the top, it can be different. Then it's better to prove you checked credentials and certifications than that the person actually be able to do the job.
Most "Certified Techs" (Score:3, Interesting)
My experince (Score:2, Interesting)
Certification is for those who need to be told they're smart because they don't beleive it themselves
My department's opinion:
Get certified and we'll give you a one time bonus, plus *some* reimbursment of expenses. This way our sales guys can buy contracts with "we have this many MCSE, we have that many CCNA and overall we have all these certifications ready and waiting to support you.
more certs == more contracts == more income == bigger bonuses and pay raises.
So although I don't personally think it's that benefitial, I can see how overall your employer wants you certified.
In my experience (Score:1, Interesting)
insurance (Score:1, Interesting)
Well, they don't *all* suck... (Score:5, Interesting)
Not what you know, what you don't know (Score:1, Interesting)
The RHCE is different... (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't say I actually learned anything during the course, (maybe had my memory refreshed though!) but I'd consider it at least an indication of a person's ability to configure a system, have some idea of the general system layout and how to troubleshoot common problems.
Re:No Cert and No CS degree == ? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am a 21 year old kid, who went to 3 years of college for computer science, and by the time the 3rd year came around, I was sick of it. The moment that made me realize it, was when I was in a 400 level class, about networking, and we were going over subnetting. The professor mentioned "binary". A kid in the class says "how do we count in binary?". Then everyone else started in saying they didn't know either.
This was a 400 level class, designed for the people who were almost out of school going to get jobs in the computer field. I dropped all my classes, and said goodbye to all my profs.
I haven't got any certs, because they seem worthless.
I got a job at a local ISP. I'm not rich, but for being 21, out on my own, I'm doing pretty good. I own a house, just bought a new 2005 mustang gt, and live happily. My job doesn't require me to take BS tests that show I know what they already know I know. They just let me do my thing.
Think of it this way (Score:2, Interesting)
Treat it as you would treat a college degree (Score:3, Interesting)
Look at it as a college degree is looked at. It doesn't guarantee knowledge necessarily. What it does is demonstrate some sort of commitment to taking a class and passing an exam, at that takes at least some work, time and money.
A cert does not make you an expert, and the experts have no need of the certifications anyway, so what they really are, are baseline tools. If you pass the RHCE exams, you know the person has a certain set of knowledge at a minimum. It may not be expert level, but you know to some extent what they have proven (in a test at least) what they know.
Also, look at the cert as a tool to the early professional. A training course and a few exams is a good way to quickly spin up into an area of IT you may not be well-versed in. Especially when it's an area dominated by older professionals who are well established. These guys tend to take up all the work and often don't want to delegate any to some know-nothing kid. The result is it's difficult for a new guy to build up his experience.
Over time, the certs do mean less and less as their work experience section grows larger. The cert is not for the guy in the mid/late phase of their careers unless they're trying to shift to a new IT area. Certs are like college degrees... they're of the most value to someone trying to get their foot in the door and build up some basic skills quickly.
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:A Few Thoughts: (Score:5, Interesting)
I would probably end up understanding my subject really well, but no one else would know that. My degree is going to say that Mellon believes I know enough about ECE to set me lose upon the world with its reputation attached to my name. So a potential employer knows that CMU trusts my skills, and he will too. While I don't know much about IT certification, I'll assume it has a similar idea behind it.
Basically, a college degree is the economic equivalent of a warranty for a car. The university loses something (its reputation) if the produce (me) doesn't perform as expected. Is the reputation of a IT institute worth much? Probably not. That means that the warranty (the degree) is probably worth about the same.
I always thought of IT institutes as a kind of community college for CS students. I would say that if you have no work record, no college degree, and a passion for CS, the IT institutes sound like a good idea. If you have a strong work record or good degree, just look for an employer who knows what to look for.
Just my thoughts.
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:5, Interesting)
Real World example (Score:2, Interesting)
The first day they sat in front of the computer and they said - "How do you turn on the computer?"
Apparently they never had a home computer and the computer's in the school's labs where always on.
Nice enough person but very limited in the IT knowledge area. Anything outside the text book knowledge base and they where lost. Small little issues would require them days of research to find the solution as it was something they had not just covered in a text book. Innovation and creative ideas where not there strong point.
I find that in computer programming you are almost an artist; creating a logical flow of information. It is impossible for a text book to teach this sort creativity.
The best way for a PHB to see you not only have the technical knowledge but the passion for the field is to look at the job experiences, hobbies or clubs you belong to.
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
The Big Picture (Score:2, Interesting)
This situation was essentially inevitable (Score:2, Interesting)
Originally, of course, the idea was that certs would help non-IT folks weed out the losers when hiring. If you run a small office, how would you hire your first IT person? By definition, you don't already have someone competent (who could judge the qualifications of an applicant), thus, you would have no way of determining who was good and who was bad. If only the good IT people had some kind of certification, given by an independent body, to prove their skillfulness.
Unfortunately, there are two problems with this idea:
- Since the people hiring don't know IT, they need certs to tell them who is good before they hire. But since they don't know IT they will also have a hard time judging who is good after they hire. It is relatively easy for someone who knows nothing to survive in IT for long periods.
- The people giving the certifications make money by doing so. This include the direct funds made by people paying to take the certification tests, as well as by the indirect advertising companies like Microsoft and Cisco receive.
Taken together, these two factors almost ensure that certs will be worthless. Their correspondence to their recipients' actual skills cannot be verified, and there is money to be made by having lots of people get them. Thus, certs are easy to get, even for people who shouldn't have them.Fact (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Interesting)
My previous employer pushed for certifications. I observed that the worst project managers were PMP certified, the least infrastructure savvy admins were MS certified...
If I am hiring a person, I want to know their ability to solve problems. I would not trust an HR department to ask the right sort of questions to determine that.
In one interview I conducted a person explain at length the previous 3 projects they had led that never made it to production. He was very proud of the 18 months and thousands of pages of training materials that the customer never deployed. I understand that sometimes projects go south, but this guy started his career on the Titanic and more recently move from sea to air in the Hindenburg ....
Re:DUH! (Score:3, Interesting)
Laugh, but it's true. Having the MCP or MCSA gets you past the first round of minions who are just throwing out resumes that don't have X, Y, and Z (for example, the HR guy will trash the resume if you don't have "A Microsoft Cert", "2 years experience", and "A college degree". Once you're past the automotons, you get to the actual tech guys who interview you to feel out your actual skills.
Another reason (and this is the reason I have one) - the company I work for is a "Microsoft Preferred Partner", and in order to be a partner, all your techs have to be microsoft certified.
And even at that, I still see value in certifications. Yes, it's possible to pass the tests and not learn anything (like those cert-mills teach you to do). However; it's also possible to think you know everything and not be able to pass the test.
I know there are probably a lot of MCSE's on slashdot, but ask yourself: How many do you personally know. I'm MCP / MCDST and 1 test from MCSA, and I've been working on the tests for like a year (though I haven't looked at any materials on the tests in 6 months). But, it's unlikely that an MCSE really can get all the tests passed while knowing nothing. I mean, you have to pass:
*Windows XP
*Windows Server 2003
*Installing and implementing a Server 2003 Network Infrastructure
*Planning and maintaining a 2003 server network infrastructure
*Planning and Maintaining a 2003 Active Directory infrastructure
*(Designing and Implementing an AD network OR designing a secure windows 2003 server network), *and one elective, which ranges from MS SQL server, to ISA server, to exchange, to MS solutions Framework.
It's unlikely that someone will pass all those tests, and know nothing.
~Will
Re:There is no point unless... (Score:3, Interesting)
Personally, I'm prejudiced against people with college degrees too... the way I see it, if you're spending years in college, you're not a self-motivated go-getter who can learn independantly, you're just another drone who paid a fortune to be spoonfed and can't be trusted to do anything more than go through the motions like he's been taught.
IT is not the profession for those who need a teacher, it is a profession for those who prefer to teach themselves, because that's what you'll spend the rest of your career doing if you're successful.
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:2, Interesting)
The worst thing that M$ did to all of us was change thier product nameing scheem. At least befor XP came out we could all laugh in the face of a recuiter that wnated 10 years windows 2000 experence.
JACEM
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Interesting)
Even the CCIE is nothing to be impressed by compared to a legal, medical or engineering license.
People that think that even Novell certs are an attempt at Guildsmenship need to get out of their cubicles and venture forth into the outside world a bit.
Re:Certifications... (Score:4, Interesting)
Since my sister lives several hundred miles away, I'm saved from most "family tech support issues". Her Win98 computer wasn't running so fast a couple of years back, so she decided to add more ram to it to speed things up. Her husband took it to his "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" to get the job done.
"MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" proceeded to drop a screwdriver onto the mobo when it was powered and fried it. He also had the nerve to charge them for a new motherboard, but at least the ram got installed.
I was visiting a couple of months later when my sister mentioned that she couldn't get any sound when she tried to play a CD. As I was already almost seething when she'd told me about the motherboard, I figured I knew exactly what the deal was. I peered in through the back to, sure enough, see that "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" hadn't reconnected the CD audio cable and it was just dangling there. I then grabbed a screwdriver to open the case to connect the cable.
Seems "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" lost the case screws, so "MCSE & A+ Certified buddy at work(TM)" POP-RIVETED THE GOD DAMN CASE SHUT.
Another half hour, a drill, and migraine later, she once again had CD audio working.
So, yes... certs might look good on paper, but they don't mean jack when it comes to knowledge.
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:5, Interesting)
Bwah ha ha... what a laugh. As someone that is an admin, and interviews people for positions now and then, I can tell you that I (and everyone else in our group that interviews as well) see(s) certs as useless. Far too many people have gone to those quickie schools like MicroSkills and just learned how to pass a cert test without actually understanding the underlying technology.
In fact, if someone really stresses their certs in the resume and/or while talking.. that tends to be a big negative. You can talk to your knowledge, telling me you have a cert isn't the answer to the question, and yes.. people have done that.
It's actually almost scary how hard it is to find really good admins now. Putting up a job opening will result in tons of responses, but 99% of them seem to be people who think that since they were able to install Fedora at home, they're qualified to be a sysadmin.
Database hiring (Score:3, Interesting)
Thank god networking stil works and even sites like LinkedIn [linkedin.com] exist, especially for those of us who have the rare ability of being able to learn practically anything without a need for institutionalized tuition.
Easy weedout (Score:5, Interesting)
I just recently saw a resume with a bunch of certifications on page 1. He had a college degree... listed all the way on page 5. Roundfile. Goodbye.
More certs or a Masters degree? (Score:3, Interesting)
I am not so sure about certs - I never saw the point, but as it sits right now I am wondering if my four year university degree was worth the student loans!
I graduated with a Comp. Sci. BS from a Nebraska university two years ago, and I am barely at where I want to go. At the time: excelled at the classes I took (mainly programming c++, java, cobol, and perl), went out and obtained a side minor of Native American studies, and was planning on going to grad school for AI and complex adaptive agents. Due to financing I opted to not go massively in debt for my masters or PhD, and started to move up in the company I worked for. I worked up to a managerial level in a call center, then hopped the wall to our software testing team. Another guy and myself are the only two in the department of 40ish people that have IT degrees. I took the job in hopes of bouncing to the programming department, but I still had to stop and meekly say "Ouch!" at the prospects. I wonder if it was worth the four years of university to be where I am or could I have just gone and snatched up a bunch of certs and a two year technical degree. Would I be in a different boat or just the same situation two years earlier?
The new dilemma is to peruse a masters degree or get another BS through a technical college in a year or so in "computer information systems technology" (read: programming specific). Would anyone care to comment on the use of a masters' degree over another BS or a barrel full of certs?
Re:The Point is Simple (Score:3, Interesting)
I bitch about certifications, not because I do not know what is on them, but because people who get certs without a degree will be considered for the same job as someone without a cert, but with a degree. If I were a hiring manager, the first thing I'd look for is a degree (CS, EE, CE, etc). Then I'd look for certs to refine the search.
It pisses me off that many people who go to school for four years or more, who have paid quite a bit of money, and have been taught intellectual adaptability are passed over. Call me an elitist, but I view those with no degree, but have certs, as inferior to those who have degrees.
Re:What would the little kid say? (Score:4, Interesting)
Fundamental difference - The current certification is (a) proprietary and (b) varying from organization to organization. What this means is that the certification industry goes into lock-down with a few (or one) major vendors being sole suppliers of that certification that says your worth employing. This has all the potential for price-hiking and standards distortion you would expect.
A community maintained certification would mean a much lower barrier of entry to independent groups keeping prices sane, better maintained standards of excellence, possibly even making certification mean something,
Because assessment would no longer be tied to the course (which it currently is because its the same people who want to sell you both), people like myself who already know a Hell of a lot and don't want to have to fork out money for a course I don't want will simply go and get their accreditation for much less.
Winners all round, especially the employers.
Used to cut wheat from chaff (by HR) (Score:1, Interesting)
Case in point. You advertise a job for a Novell/Microsoft network admin with some basic Cisco skills, paying maybe GBP 35k a year + benefits etc. How many CVs do you think you will receive ?
Judging from my experience anything from 50-200 CVs for this sort of job. Every single one of those CVs says that they have the experience necessary to do the job, can back it up with previous references and most of those have a lot more than you are actually asking for.
Now, you can't interview 200 people. You probably can't do 50 either. You have to cut the number down.
So, a good way to do this, that isn't againt the law (i.e. not racist, sexist or ageist) is to see who has some relevant qualifications.
Personally, this is why I thik the MCSE was so derided. Nearly everyone had one, so of those 200 people, you would have 175 who had it and that wouldn't help you. Although if you didn't have one, you were dropped from the shortlist straight away without even looking at the experience.
If you looked for a CNE/MCNE qualification which historically has been viewed as much harder to get, you might get 10-20 CV who had it which gives you a nice number to then use to generate a short list.
So, qualifications are useful to make you stand out against the crowd and give you an edge in the job selection process.
If your certification is common, then not having it, even though it is "worthless", could damage your prospects or getting to interview.
Re:Open Sourced certifications? (Score:3, Interesting)
We don't need no stinking...oh, those! (Score:2, Interesting)
Perception carried from other industries (Score:2, Interesting)
Certification == licensing.
There's nothing like licensing in most of the IT field.
When I'm involved in hiring decisions (rare these days), I don't look at the big picture of education. I have a few categories of questions that you will have good answers to if you're experienced, period. As for education, if there's time, I'll try to determine if you had a passion for subjects like advanced calculus and if you did anything interesting in physics.
I'd be far less interested in "where" you went to school, and far more interested in how seriously you took certain subjects, since the wrong answers here can make you a dangerous person.
Re:The Point is Simple (Score:3, Interesting)
All the certified ones left (via a variety of methods, most of them not entirely voluntary), and the non-MS-certified replacements/guys remaining whipped our datacenter into shape astonishingly quickly. We now have MS's monthly patches evaluated, tested and rolled out in under a week, and management of them is entirely centralized. The systems are more stable and more secure.
What would the medical devices say? (Score:1, Interesting)