How Much Money do Programmers Really Make? 909
bigman2003 asks: "ADTmag.com recently released a list of average salaries for IT workers. Usually when I see these lists, I find out that I am grossly below the average salary. But this time I was very surprised to see that I am actually above the average! This is partly because of a recent raise, but it is also because the numbers quoted in this survey are lower than what I've seen the past from other surveys. This report quotes about $56,000 for the average application developer. I am a web developer (sure, laugh all you want) and I wanted to know specifically: How much are other web developers were making? And- How many hours a week does it take you to make it?"
Engineer (Score:5, Informative)
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
"web developer" and "app developer" (Score:2, Informative)
That's probably average (Score:1, Informative)
Personally I think real programmers working meaningful jobs are worth a bit more than that 56K, but I have seen way too many knuckleheads making more than that in the last few years, so...
Re:Engineer (Score:1, Informative)
Now consultant paid by the hour earning over $140k and barely working any overtime. 44 hours a week is normal.
Sometimes I wish they'd fire me so I'd get a better gig. Smart people are always in demand.
PHP / Perl web developer (Score:2, Informative)
Firmware Engineer (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Engineer (Score:1, Informative)
Quit. No, really. (Score:3, Informative)
Whoah, leave off that 'even though I'm in school' clause. As strange as it seems, the best deal these days is to quit and get a job somewhere else. Nobody seems to give raises anymore. (At least not worthy of note.)
Want a raise or propmotion? Quit. I have never got a raise while I have worked in IT of more than a buck an hour, yet I have nearly doubled my salary twice by just getting a new job. You would think that a company would value experience, but noooooo....
Software Developer (Score:1, Informative)
Bay Area, CA (Score:3, Informative)
Company was tight-fisted financial services company;
Job was developing apps in Python, either stand-alone or in Zope; Integration with various MS apps (this was a Windows-only shop);
I was attractive because I've done 14 years of experience in all things IT and was a jack-of-all-trades;
I got paid $75K to start, and was raised to $80K when I started managing three engineers and had my title changed from 'Software Engineer 2' to 'Senior Software Engineer'. I considered myself underpaid, and at my next job started at $93K. As both jobs came after about 4-6 months of unemployment, I didn't really negotiate salary too much
until you hit 50 (Score:5, Informative)
I was promoted and promoted, given many salary raises above and beyond, and many bonuses for work above and beyond. While I never asked for my six-figure salary, it was nice to have cuz I didn't have to worry much about financial woes.
Then a small company merged with ours, essentially swaggered in, a (allegedly) corrupt CEO (allegedly) cooked the books, or (allegedly) ordered them cooked, we went $35B in debt, our stock went from $54 to $2 (yes, 1/27th!), and the security unraveled.
No problem, that salary would come in handy now... until some British chick came in, one week on a conference call told us all to get approval before ordering office supplies and in a month or so we would look at our financial "situation".
Two weeks later 1/5 of us did the perp walk... Lost my job, lost the chance to finish the 3 years to full pension (after 21 years with this company). And, finally finding out not many companies want to interview someone that old, or making that much money... Doesn't matter what you've done, doesn't matter how good you are, if you can't even get the interview, salaries you made are only relevant in one way. Bitter? Yeah. Get over it? Yeah, but it's not easy.
A blessing in disguise, I'm now a completely independent software developer and stand to make more than I ever did working for d'man. But a lesson learned. Don't consider your salary in and of itself. Consider the ethics and environment of the company that may screw you (my sense is there aren't many out there anymore that won't.)
Re:Just to fan a flame (Score:3, Informative)
"Why do you need another server? You already have one"
No, trying to explain it to them doesn't work. They care about the bottom line and won't change their tune until it bites them in the ass.
To help put in into perspective, I've actually been called in as a consultant just to work up some figures and plans for expanding IT departments because it carried more weight with the beancounters when I said it than when the IT manager did. Go figure.
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Informative)
I found a cost of living calculator at Salary.com the other day, because I'm looking at moving within a year or two. I currently make a base salary of ~$55,000 as a web developer in Dallas, Texas. Here are some numbers of approximately what I would need to make in various cities across the U.S to be at the same level:
As expected, the cost of living is higher in the big cities, especially in California and New York State. Anyway, I hope this was helpful. The link is below if you want to try it yourself.
http://swz.salary.com/CostOfLivingWizard/layoutscr ipts/coll_start.asp [salary.com]
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Informative)
While true, this reminds me of that study [washingtontimes.com] they did recently where they showed that peoples' happiness was more based on relative income than absolute income. Though it should be job satisfaction and the other things you mentioned that really count.
Re:What does this accomplish? (Score:2, Informative)
- people already hired, while reading such surveys, do not feel discontent about their pay level;
- people I am looking for, on the outside, would appreciate our job offers, and associated salaries, when compared to "surveys".
There is another aspect, related to "pay vs. job level" never mentioned in any survey: I have a pool of "stars" whose work I [financially] appreciate at levels incomparable to any industry "average". Those are the people who could carry out difficult project all by themselves, and/orcould intervene once, either in a critical situation, or during a tight schedule, or under highly-pressured conditions, and by the results of their work provide a fantastic ROI. Sometimes I tend to call these people "my group of uber-geeks"
All in all - surveys are like marketing or sales data: deceiving, misleading, and understated (as far as pay goes), or overstated (i.e. how much one has to know and work, to get $x)
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:3, Informative)
Peace
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:5, Informative)
Find your city, find your occupation.
http://www.bls.gov/oes/current/oessrcma.htm [bls.gov]
Applicable Occupations:
15-1021 Computer Programmers
15-1031 Computer Software Engineers, Applications
15-1032 Computer Software Engineers, Systems Software
15-1041 Computer Support Specialists
15-1051 Computer Systems Analysts
15-1061 Database Administrators
15-1071 Network and Computer Systems Administrators
15-1081 Network Systems and Data Communications Analysts
I make $83,000 + stock options and work 40 hours (Score:3, Informative)
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:1, Informative)
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:1, Informative)
J2EE architect. 15 years professional experience developing software using a range of languages, technologies, methods, and patterns in production environments. Currently working for a very stable DoD (CMMI level 5) contractor with good benefits, matching 401k, pension, and mucho vacation.
117k this year...plus about 5k in "blow smoke up your ass" bonuses.
Re:Not sure, but I bet I make less than you (Score:1, Informative)
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:3, Informative)
It's absolutely a cost-saving measure for them. A few years ago, IBM's Salt Lake City office filled a five-story building. By the time I joined the company in 1996, we had only the top floor. Shortly thereafter, the space was cut in half, then in half again, so that we now occupy 1/4 of one floor, and that space is only 11% utilized, so it won't surprise me if they reduce it yet again.
When Lou Gerstner took over IBM, the company had vast real estate assets. He sold nearly all of them off, and leased back what was needed, then began an aggressive effort to pare down office space in several ways, including by first enabling, then encouraging, then darned-near forcing employees to work at home. The cost savings were gargantuan, and played a significant part in the company's huge profitability in the latter half of the 90s. At this point, it's hard to squeeze out a lot more, but they're trying. Employees who really want to work in an office still can, and the offices are generally quite nice, but IBM's culture has become strongly telecommuter, especially in IBM Global Services. Most of us like it.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)
They have those. They're called "tech guys with MBA's".
Changing Jobs Helps... (Score:3, Informative)
Most of the jobs I have had have not allowed me to develop my skills, and have them recognised by the company with more cash. The job position is still "Developer", or "Programmer", and has a fairly fixes sallery for that postition.
As I developed my skill set I had to go to another comnany and join as an "Architect", or "Systems Programmer", each time getting a nice raise.
Some companies will allow you to progress quickly, stay with hands-on fun stuff, and get rewarded for it. Some just want 5 "Programmers", and if you leave, they get another. If they give you the extra 5k you diserve, the other 4 guys will start bitching, why would they want to do that?
End of the day, it's supply and demand, if you want to make more money, build up your skill set, talk to your boss, if you dont get what you want, get another job.
The worst thing you can do is sit on your butt reading slashdot, complaining, getting demotivated, and not focussing on developing your skill set.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Informative)
Janis Joplin once sang, "'Freedom' is just another word for 'nothing left to lose'". While this is true to some extent, I think that more aptly applies to not being a slave to consumer culture.
In any event, 'freedom' for my family and I means owning our home and reducing our monetary needs to the bare minimum.
That means getting out of debt and staying out of debt. I'm only 33, and have dealt with debt. I cannot stress to you younger folks enough how evil debt is. The only thing you should have debt on is a house and maybe a vehicle.
Own your assets outright, or aim for that as aggressively as possible.
Home owenership has been the best thing for our family. We bought our first home for $85k, and sold it for $115k. Sure, we probably paid $50k in interest during the 5 years we owned it, but that is deductible. Only some states allow rent deductions, and the Fed does not. When we sold, we paid off a number of debts. We then bought a home for $45k (we put $10k down) and are getting ready to sell for $60k. So we'll take that $20k or so in equity and roll that into our next house, which will be in the $50k-to-$75k range. The plan is to pay that down quickly and own it outright in 5 years -- then rent it and move into another similarly-priced home, or perhaps a duplex, then pay that off. Given the rental market, I could "retire" at the ripe age of 43, never having to lift a finger while bringing in at least $2k/month. My family of 4 can easily live very comfortably on that.
Going against conventional wisdom, when I quit my last job, I liquidated my retirement fund (403b, I think, with all proceeds being contributed by my employer). I got dinged on the taxes, but I used that pay off our "retirement" property. If the shit ever hits the fan, my family has a place to go. I also bought and sold a parcel that's paying for itself in a rapidly growing market. While I still owe on it, my buyer is essentially making the payments for me. I netted a few grand (more on potential interest), and the current market is such that if he flakes I'll own a prime piece of development property in an area that's expanding by leaps and bounds.
I've never made an exceptional salary, the peak being $53k and currently at $45k, in a modest employment market. So that should tell you that most anyone can prepare their future on a modest salary if they desire to do so.
While compound interest is a great tool for many people's retirement plans, ownership of land and houses is more secure in my opinion. At the least, you'll have a roof over your head for nothing (excepting taxes), and at best you'll have a passive income. Plus you'll have an assett that you can sell for a large (possibly tax-free) chunk of change, if you need a large wad of cash.
No, it's not about status or knowing who I am. I've never owned a home newer than 90 years, or a car newer than 5 years. I currently own a beat-up '91 sedan, that gets decent fuel economy and results in the smallest tax liability (12 years or older in my state). It's about having assetts at my disposal, and having them work for me.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)
Tell that to the Japanese that got caught up in the Tokyo Real Estate bubble of the late '80's and early '90's. The collapse of that bubble is STILL being felt 17 years later. Prices are STILL not anywhere near where they were at the height of the bubble.
I'm not saying that the US is caught up in a bubble of that magnitude, but Real Estate certainly CAN drop in value, and it certainly CAN stagnate for an exteneded period of time.
Owning your own house can be a secure place to put your money. It is true that you now have a place to live if you can provide taxes. Owning other houses and speculative land purchases are no different from any other investment. If I need cash (beyond my $40+k emergency fund) I can sell any part of my diversified portfolio of index funds (Domestic stocks, international stocks, and bonds), and only pay taxes on my gains. There is nothing special about selling land vs. selling stocks. (Except that I sell my mutual funds in 10 minutes and have the money in my checking account tomorrow.)
Given the rental market, I could "retire" at the ripe age of 43, never having to lift a finger while bringing in at least $2k/month.
That's a nice idea, but it ignores several realities:
1) Your gross rental income may very well be $2k a month, but...
2) You need to pay insurance on the property.
3) You need to pay taxes on the property.
4) You must maintain the property. Think about the houses you live in... this is NOT a trivial cost. A roof job could easily eat up several months of rental income on a property. Same thing with a new A/C, new siding, etc. What are you going to eat in the meantime? Okay, you say, you will do the maintenance yourself... How is that different from a job?
5) Your tenent may stop paying, but refuse to leave. depending on the laws in your area, evicting him/her may take several months. They may trash the place before going.
6) You must pay income tax on whatever is left over.
7) Two words: Health insurance. A decent group plan offered by the IEEE runs $1,500 a month for the "Standard" Family plan. That is a GOOD rate.
Rental income can be a good source of income, but so can interest from Bonds, dividends from the stocks of utilities, abstracted-out rental income from a REIT, interst from a mortgage pool, etc.
---
The key to a secure retirement is diversification. Ownership of stocks, bonds, cash, and if it is your thing, Real Estate. You do not want your future tied up in a single asset class. No, diversification will not get you rich quick, but it does work.
There is nothing "magical" about Real Estate that somehow lets it transcend the Risk/Return ratio that covers every asset class. Real Estate is the current "fad". Before Real Estate it was tech stocks. Before that, Options and Commodities. Before that, junk bonds. The same things that are being said about Real Estate now, (low risk, high return) have been said about all those other things.
Repeat after me: "You cannot have low risk AND high return, no matter what you are investing in. Skill can reduce risk, but it cannot come anywhere close to eliminating it."
Yes, you can make a fast killing in Real Estate, just as you can make a killing in Bonds, Stocks, or even Cash. However, doing so requires luck, skill, and impeccable timing. (and usually immense amounts of leverage)
---
Own your assets outright, or aim for that as aggressively as possible.
This is also not correct. You should only aim to pay off all debt on all assets as soon as possible if you have an EXTREMELY low risk tolerance.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)
It's not about not being clever; a CS degree doesn't teach you that. With theory, you can do things like jump to a totally different programming language and learn it very quickly because you probably understand what's going on behind the scenes to some extent. You said you know theory, but apparently didn't understand something like Big O, which is an essential tool for algorithm design. Theory teaches you the "whys" of why things like programming are the way that they are. Theory teaches you about rules of computation that determine what sort of problems can be solved and what makes a problem complex. These things may sound abstract, but they are things that I used to use when I was programming every day.
You basically asked why it was that DeVry graduates get bad reputations from computer science majors; it's because they are schooled scientists, and you are a schooled programmer. The sad truth is based solely on degrees and not on personal ability, then yes; a DeVry degree will not look anywhere nearly good compared to an actual CS degree from a decent school. The problem you'll have is that there's a reasonable chance that an employer won't take you for the same rate (or at all) as a CS student because he or she probably won't have a good gauge of what you're actually capable of OUTSIDE of degree work. If they have to go off degrees and you're facing off with a CS major, you're going to lose because they have an in depth SCIENCE degree instead of what is essentially looked at as a programming certification. A degree is basically a quantifiable measure of how much a person knows (or knew at some point) and how dedicated they are to stick it out for n amount of years. On this front, unfortunately you will lose every time when compared SOLELY on degrees with a BS or BA.
Anyway, I'm not going to go on and list every thing I know or every program I've ever worked on, but if you think that one cannot know how to properly develop software without getting a CS degree then maybe I'm just smarter than you.
That may be the case (and I wholeheartedly agree with you as long as by "developing software" you only mean "writing code"), but I pity you if you believe you're going to be viewed as being neck and neck with CS students from an employer's view. You may (and probably are) more qualified then some CS students, but in the end, they went to a 4 year program and got a science degree, you got an associates; if you want to talk about about being smarter than a CS student who went to a four year school, then why would you either not be aware of this handicap (when compared to a BA/BS) or why would did you choose to take the handicap and not go for the science degree? Taking a step further backwards, isn't it commonly known at this point that a bachelor's degree in almost any discipline is essentially entry level for a career?
The good news is that once you find a job, after racking up a few years' worth of experience your degree will matter less and less, as you're in an experience-oriented field. Unfortunately from my experience, it is also a limiting factor when it comes time to determine who moves up the ladder. But if you all that you really want to do is program, this isn't a downfall.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:3, Informative)