How Much Money do Programmers Really Make? 909
bigman2003 asks: "ADTmag.com recently released a list of average salaries for IT workers. Usually when I see these lists, I find out that I am grossly below the average salary. But this time I was very surprised to see that I am actually above the average! This is partly because of a recent raise, but it is also because the numbers quoted in this survey are lower than what I've seen the past from other surveys. This report quotes about $56,000 for the average application developer. I am a web developer (sure, laugh all you want) and I wanted to know specifically: How much are other web developers were making? And- How many hours a week does it take you to make it?"
The more interesting question is (Score:4, Interesting)
National surveys are meaningless (Score:4, Interesting)
The only reason why publishing companies waste their time on such surveys is that people are so interested in the topic. The unfortunate thing is that the data is meaningless on a national scale. But, it sells advertising!
Location ^3 (Score:3, Interesting)
I can never figure out what mine should be (Score:5, Interesting)
I have 25 users and 1 server. When trying to figure out what my salary should be, they never have an entry called "dumbass who takes a job as the entire IT dept."
Does anyone have any idea what someone like that should be making?
Raises (Score:2, Interesting)
I've since gone to school to get a piece of paper, while still working 1/2 time. I'm starting to feel a little underappreciated even though I'm usually given framework/system level assignments, and senior level resources come to me with questions.
Am I being unreasonable to expect a raise even though I'm in school?
I've begrudingly convinced myself to wait until I graduate next summer before asking, but I'd like to make what I think I deserve which is somewhere between $52,000 and $60,000 and I don't think they'll give me that much of a raise in one go.
Any thoughts?
P.S. I'm considered a Senior Java, Web, and PL/SQL developer.
Thanks.
Re:Bah (Score:1, Interesting)
I think it's only fitting that COBOL programmers get paid more - they would have to give me a hell of a raise before I would put up with programming in COBOL.
Wait for the next rollover, then ask (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, here in Government... (Score:3, Interesting)
If you guys try for a government job, you have to start at the bottom (the 40's) but you work your way up fast, you've got great job security, and one day, you'll have a pension.
It's worth a little sacrifice, don't you think?
The more important question... (Score:4, Interesting)
Whats the best way to ask for a raise? I know a good amount of people believe they are underpaid, and a decent number actually feel they are overpaid.
That said, for those who have actually asked and recieved: What is the best way to approach your boss and ask for a raise?
Re:Not That Easy (Score:5, Interesting)
Take my job for instance:
Web CRM Developer/Maintainer (for in house use)
Low-mid level IT Support
Satellite network diagnostics and maintenance
Field work (roughly one week every two months)
Web development
My job title: Jr. Software Engineer (note the lovely "Jr.")
My pay: not enough - but how much should I make? The same as a CRM Developer/Maintainer (I wish), the same as a low level help desk employee (it'd be a raise)?
Pay outside the USA ... (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:2, Interesting)
I think developer jobs in the US have been riding a huge bubble for a long time, and will need to fall drastically to compete with overseas programmers. Supply and demand and all that.
I suspect 10 years from now, $28-30K will be a stable median for highly skilled people. You can get a PhD with 5+ years of experience in India for less than that, so I don't see that programming is intrinsically worth more. A job is worth what someone is willing to pay you to do it, after all, not what you _think_ it's worth.
Over $350K at one time (Score:2, Interesting)
One company was paying me more than $350K per year. Of course, I was a W2 contractor which meant I didn't get any stock options, but that somehow didn't seem to upset me all that much.
The company went bankrupt after nine months mainly because they were so clueless (hint: They were paying me $350K). I was suppose to convert them from Visual SourceSafe to ClearCase and ClearQuest, but I was suppose to do this without a dedicated server and without interfering with the developers.
I couldn't do any training either because the developers didn't have time for that type of stuff and I couldn't do anything that might slow down their development like transferring the source archive to ClearCase and rewriting their build scripts.
To give you an idea how strange things were, there were less than 20 employees out of maybe 50 total employees who used the network for development (6 developers, 2 QA testers, and eight data modelers). I was suppose to put our source archive on a Solaris box, but have the developers access ClearCase via Windows.
Well, no problem as long as both the Unix and Window boxes use the same user names. That meant no spaces in user names and user names of eight letters or less. Our Windows logins were firstname-space-lastname. I asked our SysAdmin if we could convert everyone over to the shorter logins (or at least the users who would use ClearCase), and he answered it was impossible because of Corporate Policy.
I sat in a row of about nine cubicles, which was empty except for me. I use to bring my bicycle inside and put it in the cubicle next to me, but I was told that this was again against Corporate Policy because my bike would get in the way of the people sitting in that row of cubes.
It was a crazy place, and I hated working there, but when someone wants to pay you $350K, what do you do?
What about new grads? (Score:2, Interesting)
I work in the Vancouver area, BC
I'm working with a startup, they have limited cash.
I do software and hardware programming.
Makin $33,600 CDN or $28200 US...
is this normal for new grads working in a startup?
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:5, Interesting)
well people do not really have their programming needds done here
but as a sysadmin (windows) you can make $1500 a month
as unix/networking/firewalls I made around $2500 3 years ago
i dunno about programming in general at companies, I did some smaller programming things (mostly php + SQL) on a $50/hour basis (that makes it 8*50*20*12 = $96.000) but I gues sitting in a cube and sometimes coding some crap for someone fro a few days is a different story
besides in costa rica you can make a comfortable living on $1500 a month - including a maid so you do not sink in your own filth (I guess danger of IT workers's homes - at least sysadmins I know )
Re:Engineer (Score:2, Interesting)
I'm afraid that *heaven forbid* defense spending is drastically cut and I'm overpaid, I'll be the first to go. Fortunately for me I bust my ass and provide a lot of value to the company I work for. I know for sure that if things were downsized, there are several more people in line ahead of me who would be cut.
$80k per year (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:I'm in a similar position (Score:3, Interesting)
The only time I've ever got more than a 2% raise is the twice I've switched jobs. Once because my contract was up and the second time for location (from Toronto to Hamilton... closer to home). I highly recommend looking for a new job so at least you can what your market value is. Since you're not desperate to change jobs you can look closer to home if your commute sucks like mine did. Get monster.com's resume writing service to do a resume (they're really good) and don't just rely on online job ads. Newspaper classifieds are still better.
I would suspect that you'll be offered around $55,000 and you can probably talk them up a bit more.
My email address is in my profile. Feel free to contact me. I found a new job in January so my job searching experience is fairly recent.
Web designer/web developer/network admin $30,000 (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm American so when I first got here I got a job teaching English. After 8 months of kids trying to stick their fingers up my ass (it's called "kancho") I decided to get back into design/lite programming/project management. Before I left the US in 2004 I was probably make about $50k/year living in the upper midwest. Pretty good dosh for the area and I was probably working an everage of 2-3 weeks a month.
So getting back to Tokyo, having pretty rough Japanese skills made it tough to find a job, but I finally found my current gig. Basically I'm the technology guy. My title is Director of Internet Development and project management. Sweet huh? Basically I'm making a dynamic catalogue site using PHP and Flash as well as setting up a server and internal network.
How much do I make? About the equivalent of $30,000 US. Basically I'm going into the local convient store at the end of the month with a bag full of 1¥ coins to buy some food. It sucks ass. This is pretty standard for my age, 28, in Japan though. It's assumed that since everyone lives with their parents they don't need to make as much money when they're younger. I got an interview next Monday though, so now that I can speak Japanese I expect to make a better salary.
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:3, Interesting)
Yet companies insist on getting downtown offices.
Yeah... I'm lucky there. My employer (IBM) has all but forced me to stay away from the office, and finally designated my home as my official work location. I could be annoyed about that, because they really don't pay for all of the stuff I need to work from home, but they do cover a good chunk of my high-speed Internet connection (which I would have anyway, obviously), plus they cover my business phone and a piece of my cellphone. All in all, though, I probably pay less out of pocket for my home office supplies than I would spend in gas commuting to the office.
And I don't have to commute.
My salay is already public (Score:3, Interesting)
I work for the government. Specifically, I work as a lead programmer writing Perl code for the federal courts case management software. I work in Washington, DC, and I have 13 years of professional experience. I make $117K, which is high compared to some of my coworkers, but not as high as a few. I think I'm worth it.
Some of the lowest paid people in my office are the consultants. Oh, the government pays a ton for them, but the consulting company keeps more than half of it. The consulting company has an exclusive contract with us. It's a complete scam, as former executives get lucrative salaries from this consulting company after they leave the government, and thus current executives want to keep the cash cow milking. Or maybe it's true with all consulting companies, but it's still frustrating to see one of our best programmers make $50K when we pay over $100K for him.
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:3, Interesting)
Doing OK in central USA (Score:2, Interesting)
My success is coming from the fact that I can make the organizations I go into better able to be successful software shops. I went in as a senior general developer type. In the last year I've done very little real develoment. Instead, I've invented a new software document management system for the client. I've helped them figure out why they can't get software out the door, and why what they do get released is failing. Now I'm helping them kick off a multi-year re-architecture project for their entier hiring system. It's NOT because I'm a genius Java developer. I'm not. It's because I've found the principles behind software value. Simple, structured, flexible.
If you want to make money in this business, learn to do MORE than program and bitch about poor requirements. Learn how to make your organization better. Yes, they can indeed find good programmers for less money. So make yourself more valuable than Joe Programmer. Learn how to be responsible to your organization. Learn what it takes to make long-term value in your software, not the latest whiz-bang that's going to flip the next pore sod's wig when he has to figure it out. Learn how to deliver faster code that's more solid and easy to understand. And then learn how to teach others to do it. If you can do that, there will be a line outside your cubicle of people wanting you to work for them.
If you can't do that, either your days or numbered or you're setting your earningsceiling is pretty low. You're a commodity, and not a popular one.
Re:Engineer (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What's your real hourly rate comrade ? (Score:2, Interesting)
Put on it how you've helped your organization develop software that's valuable for the long term. Tell that hiring manager how you structured the app to be responsive to change and adaptable to expanding/changing technology sectors. Tell him how you've helped the business people create a business process model and engineered your software around that model so that they can be clear when they talk about changes and you'll know what the impact ot the system is going to be. Tell him how you've architected your software in terms of simple, consistent components, so that when a change request comes in you can give me a list of components to be changed or added and have a real idea of the cost of that change, not a shot in the dark that's going to blow the budget because you missed half the work.
Programmers, those guys who sit and complain about requirements, bang out something at the last minute that hamstrings them for the next round, and prop themselves up for saving the day when in reality they've missed the bigger mark altogether, are in generall getting what they're worth.
Responsible software developers, those who know what is important to their organizations future and know how to make their software reflect that, are getting much more, and are in much bigger demand.
Re:Engineer (Score:1, Interesting)
The company laid me and off, (and 100's of my closest friends), in all their wisdom.
The customer was pissed... they were left high and dry. The customer hired me directly for $100/hour, doubled my salary, saved $50/hour. Original company screwed themselves. All because their PROFIT was only $380M instead of of the projected $420M!!
Position, making money for the company, etc. stood for nothing.
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:1, Interesting)
Learning to spell correctly is not the same as always spell checking, and as such, will NOT result in anyone getting a raise.
It will never be the sole result of a decision to fire, or a decision to get a raise, at least, not in the IT profession.
Re:National surveys are meaningless (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:What does this accomplish? (Score:3, Interesting)
Raises in a corporate environment outside of promotions and the merit increases that usually come with that are nil, except for small increases that everyone gets across the board. How can you ask for a raise when everyone gets a raise at the same time every year? What makes you so damn special?
Building this taboo around salaries is a nice psychological means of keeping wages as low as possible.
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:5, Interesting)
I think developer jobs in the US have been riding a huge bubble for a long time, and will need to fall drastically to compete with overseas programmers. Supply and demand and all that.
----
Only to the extent that a country is limited to the field of computing. If wages fall drastically in one field, workers simply shift into another field. Who is going to work for 30K/yr as a computer scientist when they can make 100K as a ________ (fill in the blank with your own 2nd job preference: biologist, real estate agent, small business owner, beach bum, etc)?
Based on my own personal experiences, I would say that market demand is strong and supply is low. The outsourcing hysteria has already driven computer science enrollment into the dirt. Even schools like MIT and CIT have reported a 40+% drop in CS students. My own school went from 1200 to 800 CS students last year. Appx 90% of whom were undergrads and US citizens (which matters because the defense companies are literally tripping over each other trying to hire CS grads who can obtain a clearance).
I haven't heard the enrollment numbers for this semester yet, but I know that at least 10 additional classes were cancelled due to low enrollment.
And how would I characterize the job market in the area (S CA)? Actually, I would say that it is pretty healthy. Healthiest that I've seen since 2001.
- I was at Unix users group meeting the other night and five people had job announcements.
- One of our competitors has been offering 10K and 15K signing bonuses to our employees.
- We can't fill two entry level positions!
- A recruiter called me out of the blue two weeks ago.
The demand is there - it will be until we are no longer dependent on humans designing and implementing programs, doing research, administering systems, etc.
Given the drastically reduced supply of computer science graduates, the always depressingly low number of US MS and PHD students in CS (personally, I blame sports and MTV), and the healthy demand for GOOD computer scientists, I would say that wages in computer science related jobs are probably going to increase substantially over the next decade.
Also, if there is any bubble around, it is called 'outsourcing', which has been a very hit and miss ordeal for many companies. Everyone knows that companies are reluctant to report a security breach. They're just as reluctant to report an outsourcing failure, if not more so. How do you make the following sound nice... 'Well, first, we laid off 100 people to try and save 500k a year. Then the outsourcing company stole 200k from us. Finally, a disgruntled former employee put most of our source code on the internet. Now we're 2 years behind our competition, who was 2 years behind us last year, and all of our GOOD former employees have already found jobs with other companies.'
Re:Cost of Living (Score:2, Interesting)
I think it is funny when people say, yes, I may live in an uncultured shithole, but that makes the poverty level wages I earn so much better!
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:2, Interesting)
It will never be the sole result of a decision to fire, or a decision to get a raise, at least, not in the IT profession.
I've found the best way to get a raise is to switch jobs or get a promotion, both of which have required written english skills.
Also to get ahead you have to be recognisable from the crowd. If you correct your bosses work privately, and can do it in a helpful manner, over time you may be asked to proofread stuff, and then you may actually be asked to write technical briefs for customers. Nobody likes to look foolish in front of a crowd, so if you can protect your boss from looking foolish by warning them in advance, you are valuable to them. This makes you visibly competent to your boss, and gives you a value over others at your level, which is useful at raise/promotion time.
Your other options if you have english skills are to ignore mistakes your boss makes, or mock them for them. If you don't have adequate English skills you do not even have those options. And then maybe you wouldn't know the opportunities having and expressing English skills brings you.
Of course having said that...
It will never be the sole result of a decision to fire, or a decision to get a raise, at least, not in the IT profession.
I have no basis to disagree with you. But only because you do not seem to know the difference between the sole cause of an action and the sole result of an action. I don't know anyone who has been either fired or received a raise and responded by getting better English skills.
Re:The more important question... (Score:1, Interesting)
- if I work until 2am, I make damn sure I email someone in management a question or update before I leave (visibility - especially important since I don't usually get in until 11am
- do stuff outside of my job description that needs doing
- work fast
- save the company money - spot efficiencies, identify potential upcoming problems
Then, when you feel you're noticed, apply for a job elsewhere, pointing out all this cool shit you've been doing. They will love you and give you a good offer because they see how hard you work. Then decide whether to take it - or tell your company that if they want to keep you that they have to match it - or get close.
My pay went up 125% in 3 years (admittedly, I started pretty shitty for my skillset, but this was my first real corp job (I had my own business for a while and then worked for a friend).
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:3, Interesting)
And how would I characterize the job market in the area (S CA)? Actually, I would say that it is pretty healthy. Healthiest that I've seen since 2001.
- I was at Unix users group meeting the other night and five people had job announcements.
- One of our competitors has been offering 10K and 15K signing bonuses to our employees.
- We can't fill two entry level positions!
- A recruiter called me out of the blue two weeks ago.
I can second that. I find I can usually get an idea of the job market by the headhunter activity. Recently they have been on the prowl, some leaving messages at the office, some at the home. This is in the Texas area. It was also much like that back in the dot-com era.
Given the drastically reduced supply of computer science graduates, the always depressingly low number of US MS and PHD students in CS...
This is not just in CS, and this is something else I noticed. At least in EE, headhunters are always looking for sharp MS and PhD individuals.
Also, if there is any bubble around, it is called 'outsourcing', which has been a very hit and miss ordeal for many companies. Everyone knows that companies are reluctant to report a security breach. They're just as reluctant to report an outsourcing failure, if not more so.
I've seen this also in a couple companies - the scaling back of overseas operations. A couple years ago the outsourcing seemed like a great way to generate cheap headcount, but the results coming back from remote sites was less than stellar. Experience is everything, but those newly formed sites were composed of educated people (MS, PhD) who had very little experience. It just didn't work out, and I doubt the companies had the stamina to wait a decade for the experience to build up.
Surviving in Germany (Score:4, Interesting)
I choose to go freelance two years ago. As, amongst other things, a web developer, with a thourough focus on OSS. Which is a growing market and closing in on critical mass here in germany. Everybody (and I mean everybody ) and his brother is using Typo3, people consider Linux as an alternative and demand for OSS consulting is growing. My partners are in with pharmaceutical corporations - which, naturally, have licences to print money. I'm building myself a reputation and even have a small business contract with a small agency in Florida im doing CRM for.
I'm flying under the radar, earning barely over minimum wage, making any comparion with those popular 'yellow press' salary lists utterly pointless. But I have liberties fulltime jobbers can only dream of and don't have to fuss around with superiours who don't take me for granted. I've learned to trust no one but myself (learned the hard way) and feel fairly safe even though I've currently got zero finacial backup and the german federal pension will be a joke when I'm old.
IT is growing with 5% aprox. and OSS is growing a little faster. I can bill aprox. 60$ an hour and have 2-3 hours a day that I can bill. It just covers my expenses. The upside being that I can spend a notable portion of my time at my favourite lounge sipping Latte and studying O'Reillys. In a nice indian summer these days. Oh, and, btw, how was your work day, my fellow slashdotter? *wide grin*
The downside being the tax Uber-paperwork, which is beyond insane in Germany.
Bottom line: I don't earn very much, but I'm surviving on my own. Which means I can't complain. If I keep on track and gain in efficiency (my main focus at the time) I might even have a small company with a handfull of employees some day. Who knows...
Re:how much am I payed? (Score:2, Interesting)
If you write enough though, you'll realise that stream of concious is the opposite grazism - or, as you'll also realize, "the comma people". Man, I'm so awesome. I would add explanations, but I'm too busy fapping to my ingeniousity.
Luxury! (Score:2, Interesting)
A beginner programmer takes about $350 per month.
An average programmer (2 years of work exp) takes about $750-$875 per month.
A senior developer takes $1060 - $1500 per month.
A project manager takes about $1930 per month.
That is cache, not the officially declared salary, which is usually lower to 'save' some costs for the companies.
These salaries are usually given by outsourcing western companies, German and American mainly. Bulgarian companies pay similar or lower salaries, depending on how well they manage to attract clients.
And we are happy with this, as the average salary in the country is lower than that of a beginner programmer. The good thing is, the TOC of living in Sofia is just a small fraction of that of living in, say, Norway or something.
Now, we all hope one day the salaries will reach their western counterparts... but the opposite could happen.
Re:Short answer (Score:4, Interesting)
The last 10%, the unexpected cross/head winds, the emergencies, obstacles on the runway, mechanical problems with the plane... then having the best means the difference between walking away vs being carried off on a stretcher.
There's no way to know, in advance, which flights are going to be absolutely routine and boring and which ones will have cause for excitement. Hence, two pilots on every plane.
Depends on how you count it (Score:3, Interesting)
If you take into account how often people in the tech industry get laid off, spend a couple months in transition getting unemployment before their new jobs -- then maybe the numbers more correctly line up.
Re:Not That Easy (Score:2, Interesting)
The problem I've seen with graduates of DeVry and all of the other schools like DeVry (ITT, ICS, etc.) is that they don't teach any computer science.
You've said that you understand a lot of the theory behind computer science. My experience with DeVry grads is that that would be a first. You also say that DeVry teaches how to apply analysis/design/programming skills to buisnesses. Sorry again. I've never seen analysis or design from any of these schools. They all want to start coding on day one of the project.
I once asked someone from one of these schools about what he had learned in regards to analysis and design. He told me that in his course they had one day for analysis, design, business etiquette and basic business skills (running meeting, writing memos). One day? How thick are your written specs before you start coding? How many meetings do you hold with your users before you even start designing?
Finally, if you really know CS theory, a quick quiz. What is the order of this algorithm:
for (int i=0;i<n;i++)
for (int j=0;j<i;j++)
printf("Hello World\n");
a. n
b. n log n
c. n^2
This whole thing has sounded pretty harsh, but I've dealt with a lot of people over the past years who got into programming because it seemed like a good gig where they could make a lot of money fast but had no real interest in building good software. Nobody ever told them there was a lot more to programming than what they learned in school. Even with the best business skills in the world, your code either works or it doesn't. If an engineer has great business skills but his bridges constantly fall down, they don't call him a great engineer. The same goes for software.
Re:The more interesting question is (Score:2, Interesting)
Even before IT really took off in the 90's, I always thought it was an overpaid profession. To be honest, I do IT work because I like it. If I wasn't doing it for a job, I'd be doing it for a hobbie.
Let's face it, you get to sit in an office, drink coffee and bang on a keyboard. In most cases, the dress code is very lax. And if you're lucky, you can probably do 90% of your job from home. For such a job, 30k-40k/yr including benifits and a standard 3 weeks vacation is more than sufficient. However, the one stipulation is that the expecation is only 40 hours/week. None of this 50-60 hours/week expectation shit companies are preaching today. And the lack of on-call compensation has to end.
I'd gladly give up my pay for an IT job that gives me more time with the family. Maybe that should be the new industry trend. The lower pay is just going to happen because the maturing of a new job sector, but companies now need to start treating the IT workers like real people. The job expectations need to be a bit more realistic.
36K for IT (Score:3, Interesting)
Eventualy, I got myself in at a mortgage company in orange county, ca. Officialy, I'm "the IT guy" but I'm also developing a web based software (PHP - MySql) which they use (but I have the rights to it). For this they pay me just $36K. I know I could probably get a straight programming job elsewhere for more $ (after years, not since the dot com boom, I am getting calls for job offers).
But, I stay, because my boss is flexible with my hours. I can take wednesday mornings off with my new baby, leave early whenever I need to, etc.
And I can work on my web based software which I am leasing to other mortgage companies (so far, this is netting me another $9k/yr, and that's just one client leasing monthly).
There's something to be said for making less $ but getting flexibility to work on other things. With any luck, in a year, I will be making 10x what I make now..
PS. anybody with some knowledge of the mortgage business and who is a good salesman, in the orange county ca area who wants to make a monthly residual on a software lease, feel free to contact me. We need salesmen and trainers for our software. Or if you are a mortgage company, check out our lead management software. Shameless plug! http://www.imlts.com/ [imlts.com]
Counting unemployment (Score:3, Interesting)