The Electrocharger...Any Day Now? 98
bigmoosie asks: "It has been over a year since the Electrocharger was discussed on Slashdot. It appears to be almost ready for production, or is it still vaporware? Does the Slashdot community think an electric motor replacing the alternator on an internal combustion engine will add 5, 10, or even 15 mpg? How well do you think the super capacitor battery pack will hold up at -20 degrees Fahrenheit? Are there any other products out there that do the same thing? I know this is not as efficient as a hybrid car made at a factory, but it can reduce the fuel consumption and emissions for cars that are 5 or even 10 years old and still on the road. Does have the potential to be an environmental friend or disaster (how long does the battery pack last)?"
Re:Boy... (Score:1)
Would someone help me understand this?
Re:Boy... (Score:1)
It'll be awhile now. (Score:2)
- dshaw
Re:It'll be awhile now. (Score:1)
Hybrid cars are quite expensive. For example I drive a Chevy Cavalier. If I buy a new one, it'll cost me 16G's. If I buy a hybrid, it'll cost me at least 10G's more. The current gas prices are not that insane that I'm spending 10G's more in gas.
Re:It'll be awhile now. (Score:2)
The Insight is about 20k, and yea, who cares now. my dad bought one in the 01 model year, and it was fun then, now i see a prius every time i go out. the novelty wore off long ago.
Anyway, the real question now is how long will they last? the car companies have pretty much nailed making the 4 stroke engine, but the hybrid powertrain is still very new. Most hybrids out there are less than 5 years old, so we don't know what happens to these battery/powertrain once they start againg.
Re:It'll be awhile now. (Score:2)
Does have the potential? (Score:5, Funny)
I know enough logic to know the answer to this question is definitely "yes."
Re:Does have the potential? (Score:2)
Hey (Score:1)
Re:Hey (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Hey (Score:2)
Re:Hey (Score:2)
Re:Hey (Score:1)
Not really (Score:2)
I could be wrong, but I am guessing you don't spend much time around mechanical designers. I used to be an analyst at a company that makes jet engines. I was in computaional anaysis, but the old school empierical guys used equations that make that one look like 8th grade math. In my professional opinion as a mechanical engineer, that equation is simple.
Re:Not really (Score:2)
Re:Hey (Score:3, Informative)
They claim (which I can't verify) that the equation is from:
"COURTESY: BOSCH AUTOMOTIVE HANDBOOK, 5TH EDITION"
Looks like you need a degree if physics to figure it out. Also looks like a scan of a piece of paper.
No connection (Score:4, Interesting)
There's a connection... (Score:5, Informative)
The connection between Sigma Automotive and Texas A&M is--in a word--me.
You can check out all this with google, here's the facts: I am a grad student at Texas A&M, and my name is David Hoelscher. I work on power electronics and motor drives under Dr. Ehsani. A year and a half ago we got a visit from a man named Michael Van Steenburg, and he had an idea to make retro-fittable hybrid electric vehicles, ala replacing the alternator. The reason he came to Texas A&M is because Ehsani specializes (or specialized?) in switched reluctance motor (SRM) drives.
As an aside: SRM drives are basically a rugged motor drive--they don't need any magnets, so there's no demagnetization problem. Basically the idea is that when you put a paramagnetic material in a magnetic field, the material will temporarily magnetize and align with the field as much as possible (you can find more on paramagnetic at Wikipedia). To achive this, the rotor has to have salient poles--that is, it must physically have a toothed surface. And when you combine a toothed surface and large magnetic forces, you get a loud noise, which is THE biggest problem with SRM.
Back to the subject at hand though...so Mike wanted to use SRM motors because the alternator is near the engine (which is hot) and there's nothing to demagnetize. Ehsani knows motors, but he doesn't manufacture them. In fact, not many companies manufacture them. In this case, he found an company, International USA, who could manufacture them. So things are looking good.
Summer 2004, I take off a summer to work with them, specifically sizing the battery/ultracapacitor pack and determining the best type of battery to use, etc. But every step of the way, the delivery date for the test motor drives is pushed back. The work by International was unfunded, as the company was incredibly small and funding was tight (you can see how small by checking out the contact page: http://www.ecolectrictechnology.com/contactus.htm [ecolectrictechnology.com] and yes, I'm the Dave).
At some point, the web page information showed up on Sigma Automotive, and then on Slashdot--I admit, I was surprised when a lab mate told me he read about it in a major news outlet (I hadn't checked Slashdot yet on that day). FYI, the actual webpage for the company is www.ecolectrictechnology.com
We also went out to the SEMA show in Las Vegas, but the most we had to show was a mock-up on an engine--at this point, I had been back at school a few months and just answered questions here and there, maintained contacts, but was largely out of the day-to-day business.
About the start of 2005, key personnel for our product at International had left the company, so there was no one left to work on it, and even if there was, there still wasn't money to pay them.
Since then, the project has been dead in the water. As for me, I'm finishing up my research at A&M and starting the job hunt. If anyone's looking to hire a Masters EE with a power electronics/motor drives background, 5 years of experience building solar cars, and 6 years experience software development, feel free to email me at david dot hoelscher at gmail dot com
The original idea is still a good one, albeit a bit complicated. For example, to add much torque to the driveshaft, there needs to be a significant upgrade to the belt that used to run the alternator, which in turn (likely) requires a new pully, and changing out a lot of belts. The motor drive itself has to fit in the place of the old alternator, so there are size restrictions there. Also, the motor controller needs to go SOMEWHERE, preferably close to the motor but not in the engine compartment. Finally, a mass air flow sensor (or something) needs to be used to determine when to run the motor and when to regenerate. All that while keeping the costs reasonable.
If you factor in that t
That was it! (Score:1)
Please mod parent article: (Score:2)
This is complete bullshit. Much like those "Tornado Air Chargers," but for the idiot with deep pockets.
If you want good gas mileage, convince someone to release a decent diesel-electric hybrid car.
Alternatively, take that $3000 and find yourself a used Geo Metro in decent condition and you'll be right at 50mpg with cash to spare.
Replace the alternator? (Score:3, Insightful)
I guess I could replace the generator and regulator, maybe upgrade from 6v to 12v (or more?) at the same time...
aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
It's certainly an interesting concept. I suppose it's wired up somehow to know when you press on the brake pedal, and energize the stator to start charging. Of course your brakes are still probably doing most of the work.
Who knows, maybe it could be workable. If only the site designing th
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:3, Informative)
-Rick
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:3, Informative)
-Rick
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
An engine puts out torque at idle, it's that simple. If not, how would it turn the water pump? the altinator? the torque converter? If including those things is still n
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
This is total nonsense.
If you have extra torque (after subtracting all your frictional losses) the engine is going to accelerate.
Spark advance is a mere optimization of the combustion. There are plenty of engines out the that DON'T EVEN HAVE spark advance and still manage to accelerate.
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
LOL! That is the funniest thing I have ever heard!!! Even the oldest of the old cars had spark advance. Every single car in the world with a variable speed engine has some form of spark advance. Wether it's points with springs and centrifical force, vaccuum advance, mechanical advance, computer controled, or any other system, spark advance is what a
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
Huh? If you have more gas and more O2, it will produce more energy when it burns. When this energy is converted into rotational energy, the engine accelerates. Spark advance has nothing to do with it. Diesel engines don't even use sparks, and they work fine. Lawnmower engines don't have spark advance, and they manage to accelerate (from zero) just fine.
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:1)
I didn't say CARS, I said engines. There is no reason for me to limit myself to cars to point out your obvious total failure to understand the subject. A simple, bare bones lawnmower engine is all it takes to show how completely off base you are here.
How else could the engine accelerate? Gas burns at the same rate wether you have 1 part fuel or 20 parts fuel.
BY CHANGING THE AMOUNT OF AIR AND FU
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
Correct, more air/fuel mixture, more energy. But that energy is still released at the same rate.
"Diesel engines don't even use sparks, and they work fine."
Diesels use heat and pressure to ignite the air/fuel mixture. They use high preasure fuel injectors to shoot fuel directly into the combustion chamber under preasure. They accelerate by injecting the fuel earlier.
"Lawnmower engines don't have spark advance, and they
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
I already posted on this. A lawnmower engine is a single speed 2 stroke engine. The throttle on it is a power throttle, it alters the air flow into the combustion chamber. By having the handle pointed at "rabbit" you are providing it the 'correct' amount of
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:1)
Heat?
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
No, my car will stall out and die.
Some cars are programmed so that when you press in the clutch it automatically raises the idle RPM to help keep you from stalling.
Also, you're forgetting about this thing called t
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
Your car likely high high ratio final gears. (aka Highway gears), good for cruising at speed, bad for low end torque. Take my wife's truck for example, designed for off roading. It has extremely low gearing, I can put it in first, slowly let of the clutch and it will go with out a flinch in the rpms. It's a mid 80's and the engine is carbed, not fuel injected. There is not air bypass, nor any other system that magically increases power at idle because it's in gear.
Go
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
No.
You missed the point.
Your engine needs to run at a certain minimum RPM in order to sustain operation. If your flywheel has enough momentum, it can allow your car to stay within that range under a temporary load that is greater than the engine's ability to create torque and stay within that range.
Of course it's possible to set you idle ridiculous
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
Which means that *gasp* IT ACCELERATED!"
Correct, when I step on the gas, the throttle body butterfly valve opens, increasing pressure in the manifold which causes the spark to advance, so that the explosion will occur earlier, have more force and accelerate the engine, which will suck in more air/fuel mixture which will provide more power at that RPM.
"I'm trying to explai
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
The PRIMARY reason your engine has more force is because YOU'RE BURNING MORE FUEL.
When you open the valve, the engine can suck in more air mass per unit time. The carb/efi senses this and adds
maybe I can help (Score:2)
Forget about the spark advance right now, as that's a (relatively) recent trick used to get more power. It's not one of the fundamentals required for engine operation.
If you look at a lawnmower engi
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
You can burn more fuel over time, but you can not burn more fuel per cycle. More air/fuel is the RESULT of acceleration, not the cause.
A cylinder that displaces half a liter of space will only ever be able to burn
You don't seem to understand how an engine works. (Score:2)
You can burn more fuel over time, but you can not burn more fuel per cycle. More air/fuel is the RESULT of acceleration, not the cause.You can burn more fuel over time, but you can not burn more fuel per cycle. More air/fuel is the RESULT of acceleration, not the cause.
Incorrect. More air/fuel is the result of opening the t
You are correct. (Score:2)
Gasoline engines are controlled by limiting airflow, not spark. In fact, you do not really even need a sparkplug for an engine to work, and the smallest gas engines don't have spark plugs. I have a model airplane engine that will run on gas, and it only has a glow plug- no spark advance there. But it does have a throttle bo
Re:You don't seem to understand how an engine work (Score:2)
Re:maybe I can help (Score:2)
We've already been through this. A Lawnmower engine is a "single speed" engine, you are adjusting it's power level which allows it to overcome more friction which allows it to speed up, to a set point. You can increase the speed over this by advancing ignition, diesel engines (the ones with glow plugs and no timing to advance nor throttle body to limit air flow) do this by adjusting the amoun
Re:maybe I can help (Score:1)
Thanks for the lucid explanation. As I read through the posts, I wondered if I'd have to try to clear things up, but you handled it splendidly. If I hadn't already posted all over this topic, and if I had mod points, I'd give them all to you. Excellent work.
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
This is simply not true. The amount of air you suck into your engine is a function of two things:
Your engine RPM
How far open your throttle is
This seems to be the source of your misunderstanding. The amount of air a 3L engine sucks in at 3,000 RPM depends on how much restriction there is in the intake path. Your throttle is a controlled restriction.
An engine is a
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
When you stop, you make things hot. Imagine energy that you can recoup; your car spends energy, but lots of it goes into things that we can't recapture immediately.
The first law says that energy is conserved, in a fully closed system, but the heat and noise (note how playing music uses energy) of a system represent the energy we cannot get back in most common technologies.
If this alternator can be engaged the moment you want to stop, and allows the part in a car that spins and dri
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2)
I'm not arguing against regenerative braking. Regenerative braking is a good idea.
My point is that if you're sitting there ALREADY stopped at a light and you decide to start charging this system, you're going to have to burn more fuel to make up for the increased load on the engine.
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:2, Informative)
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:1)
When you downshift an automatic transmission it clearly increases the rotational speed of the engine. Many automatic cars now downshift, when the brake is applied and the throttle position sensor is at zero, for engine braking. I'm sure the detection of when to downshift is more complicated, but it gets to the point that a TC can perform work on the crankshaft. For even more efficiency the torque co
Re:aftermarket regenerative braking? (Score:1)
FAS? (Score:2, Interesting)
See:
http://www.hybridcars.com/silverado-sierra.html [hybridcars.com]
Re:FAS? (Score:2, Insightful)
This is silly (Score:2)
This product will be fairly useless, because it seems to just drive the engine crankshaft, and is powered from supercaps. There are three major problems with this approach: the amount of energy the capacitor can store is very small, the electric motor will have to work against the gas e
Re:This is silly (Score:1)
Re:This is silly (Score:4, Informative)
An alternator IS an electric motor... (Score:2)
There's some BS on the site (Score:4, Interesting)
There is the remote possibility that it can have some benefits. The basic idea is vaguely sound. However, they're fond of making wildly inaccurate statements on their website, so I'd take any specific claims with a grain of salt.
My favorite FAQ is:
This is of course an outrageous statement to make without qualifications. My current vehicle does 0-60 in about 4.2 seconds. There is no way in hell that thing is going to give me a 1.2 second 0-60. Perhaps on a car that goes 0-60 much much slower, then maybe you could shave 3 seconds, but even then that sounds like an awful lot.
Re:There's some BS on the site (Score:1)
What about "alternating DC current"? (Score:2)
Re:What about "alternating DC current"? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:There's some BS on the site (Score:1)
More BS on the site (Score:2)
It's worth reading that page for a good laugh though. A link to it: http://www.sigmaautomotive.com/IRD/superfuelmax.ph p [sigmaautomotive.com]
If you're looking for something real, I think Valeo (recently had a piece on lemonde.fr) already has something along these lines.
Re:More BS on the site (Score:2)
Total BS (Score:1)
Re:Total BS (Score:1)
-Dave
Re:Total BS (Score:1)
Those updates at the bottom a
Very unlikely it does what they say... (Score:2)
Maybe. Even at their low 5mpg I find it hard that a small alternator sized motor could produce any more then 5 HP for short periods without needing serious cooling. This looks like it could only benefit very small light weight cars. A few mpg in city driving on a small Honda Civic like vehicle in the city might see some improvement if it does what it is supposed to do
Re:Very unlikely it does what they say... (Score:1)
Mostly overhyped, somewhat functional (Score:2)
As for power output? with a 42volt source I can't see this thing putting out more then 50ft/lbs at the crank (notice the reduction in pully size from the crank to the motor). Most likely less then that.
That power is also only available for short periods of time. But that does make it good for accelerating.
So, what I see this as a good idea for is veh
Of course it'll work (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:2)
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:1)
Or course, I'm an electrical guy and my work there focused mostly on the battery/ultracapacitor pack, so I'm not familiar with how they would handle it...
-Daivd
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:2)
So if you're the eletrical guy, how many volts & amps was this thing running?
To make any real difference you power input has to be HUGE... many thousands of watts. 1,000 watts is only 1.34 horsepower. If you want even a mere ten horse power on a 12V system you're talking about 833 AMPs or current.
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:1)
The maximum we looked at was 15 horsepower (approx 12kW). We were also going to use a 42V system. This worked out to just under 300 amps max. This isn't even much of a concern because you'd only use this much current if you try to add a lot of torque at when the car is redlining. Most people tend not to redline their car. The typical driver might never use more than 150 to 200 amps (but we'd design it to handle 300, at least for a short duration).
The bene
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:2)
My math is correct.
Yes, 1000W is only 83.3 amps, but that's just barely over one measly horsepower. I was talking about 10kW. This is why I said 833 amps. One horsepower is a freakin joke.
This isn't even much of a concern because you'd only use this much current if you try to add a lot of torque at when the car is redlining. Most people tend not to redline their car.
Is or is not this thing being billed as a performance upgrade? I thought it was.
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:1)
However, it is fitting to consider it a performance upgrade because of the increase in low-end torque. If you only stop at the level of "power is power" and refuse to consider that power = torque * speed, and that for electric motors, torque is maximized at low speeds, then I'll be unable to convince you that there is a real performance boost at low speeds.
Just for co
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:2)
We'll have to agree to disagree here. The name "electrocharger" is obviously meant to appeal to those who compare it
Re:Of course it'll work (Score:1)
As to the worries in stop and go traffic, since we're not operating anywhere near peak power (because peak power happens when we're about to redline), we won't be operating anywhere near peak current...it will cycle from 0 to about 125amps, then go to -125 when you regen and head back to (about) 0 when you're stopped, and using very rough math, that puts it at about 60-70 amps on the average (I'd normally calculate the root-mean-square current
Snake Oil -- mostly (Score:2)
OTOH, a similar device designed into an engine and used for peak shaving might allow the use of a much smaller (more efficient) gasoline engine by providing satisfa
Re:Snake Oil -- mostly (Score:1)
I know the professor leading the work on this (he's on my committee for my masters research), and it's based in pretty solid reality. Plus, because the Star Rotor engine is based on the Brayton cycle, it's got a fairly flat torque profile...that makes it an especially good candidate for hybridization with electric motors.
FYI they can already do compressors, and the only thing keeping them from doing the engines righ
Re:Snake Oil -- mostly (Score:2)
Re:Snake Oil -- mostly (Score:2, Informative)
Also, their fuel source (hyrdogen and oxygen) is a problem...you'll note they say they'll use solar power to produce the oxygen and hydrogen and then use that to power the engine
Re:Snake Oil -- mostly (Score:2)
Are you certain about this? From what I understand, nutating plate "engines" are all around us and work well - they just work on water or gas - as in being used to drive the mete
Fahrenheit?? (Score:1)
Bullshit. (Score:2)
Maybe not in the US, but here in Europe, with current fuel-prices hovering around 6$/gallon (not a typo --six-- dollars) I can promise you some people are more than "sligthly" interested in better fuel-economy.
Apart from that, there's too many claims that are simple nonsensical no matter how you turn and twist it
Seems to be a bit of a lack of focus (Score:2)
Aquaristics
BOSSBi
Earthority
NanoRC
SmartCarisma
so, whatever they're selling, they're selling a lot of different things.
Fishier and fishier said Alice.
It's ready to be realeased, just waiting on.. (Score:2, Interesting)
"Sept 7th, '05: Technically, the maker is ready to launch this device but their hands are tied until the programmer is done refining the software. Please be patient."
For the full story... (Score:1)
Plasma LCD Surround Sound (Score:2)