Recruiting IT Students? 631
spacemonk asks: "I teach at a community college and our enrollment numbers are down in our IT programs. We have found that many have the perception that there are few IT jobs. We feel this is causing many students, who might be interested in IT, to enroll in other programs. There is obviously a lot of conflicting information regarding the impact of off-shoring, and so forth, but much of what we have found indicates that the IT job market is improving, and IT is still a career that can offer job opportunities to students. For example, we have had internship opportunities that we have not been able to send candidates to, simply because we don't have the students. Needless to say, this is very frustrating. How would you honestly describe the IT job market to students considering this major? What can be done to recruit more students into IT programs?"
Time to let go (Score:5, Insightful)
Now, IT skills have been commoditized, and companies are paying standard wages for IT jobs. As a result, students are moving away from this ordinary job and either looking for something more lucurative, or simply choosing something that they are interested in (like Arts, History etc).
Since companies' needs ( as in wages, not the actual work demand ) for IT have been downsized, shouldn't colleges and universities do the same?
Cassette factory had its time, and it may still be producing cassettes, but it also has to make room for CDs/DVDs.
Re:Time to let go (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Time to let go (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Time to let go (Score:3, Insightful)
Time to let go. IT is just a regular job now. Get used to it, or move on.
Re:Wallstreet (But only geniuses) (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't think this is the case. You're not talking about just genius programmers when you mention "new, unexpected stuff" -- you're talking about brilliant programmers who happen to be creative geniuses. I think that the push away from CS as a major has to do with the exact thing that's wrong with your above statement.
Chinese, Indian, Albanian, ... any other programmer may be able to write computer code very well, but in both an anecdotal and (what I beleive to be) a measurable sense, the United States a
Re:Wallstreet (But only geniuses) (Score:3, Interesting)
Hmm. Perhaps. However, in my experience, companies DO wan
Re:Time to let go (Score:5, Insightful)
Before the 90's, people got into IT mainly because they had an aptitude for it and that was the type of job they liked.
But in the 90's, because of the salaries, many people who had no aptitude for IT got into the field. And they could get by because they could do an adequate job and companies needed warm bodies to get the work done.
Now the market is correcting itself. Companies are trying to reduce cost, some by outsourcing (and seeing how that won't work for the most part) others are trying to get by with fewer people and are finding out that out 4 out of 5 people in their IT dept are just warm bodies and can be removed without reducing the amount or quality of the software.
Simply put, IT is going back to becomming an area like other jobs: those who have an aptitude for it are being drawn to it. The people who have no aptitude are being pushed out or drawn to the latest high paying fad: health care (woe to anyone who gets sick today!).
If you are thinking of going into IT for any reason other than you like that sort of work, you are setting yourself up for career failure.
But, then, I'd make that statement about any career. Careers should be chosen by what you like to do - which relates directly with what you have a natural aptitude for - and not just because you can make a certain salary.
Re:Time to let go (Score:2)
I'm trying to get a PhD in computer science because I like computer science, not because it's particularly lucrative (though, with the right skills, it is).
Re:Not easy coming from a UK College (Score:3, Informative)
I'd thoroughly recommend g
Well, what kind of IT? (Score:5, Insightful)
A lot of people were pumped through technicial schools during the bubble. Many of those people were only chasing the supposed promise of big bucks in the IT field. Educational institutes make some pretty good money on their (and the tax payers') backs as well. I worked with enough of these people to become a bit bitter about the whole thing. If you're trying to drum up the same type of business from the same type of people, I can't say I wish you much luck. The world is always in need of throughly educated people who have a genuine interest in technology though.
Re:Well, what kind of IT? (Score:3, Interesting)
Sure is. A University close to here with similar problems to the headline, has a newspaper print ad series running now (not on their online edition, blame the paper for that
Specialties are a weakness (Score:2, Insightful)
That, sadly, really is the case. To be good, to be really good - not just mediocre - you have to be well-rounded. That is true in any field. However, IT isn't just another field. It is a study of the application of tools to enable others to study the application of data in other fields. But if you know nothing about how the other fields operate, how can you
Re:Specialties are a weakness (Score:3, Insightful)
I know it's supposed to be funny, but I can't say that I agree at all. I'd say the average person only knows a little bit about a handful of things, and much of that is incorrect or incomplete. "Skilled" people tend to have a lot of very narrow knowledge, often much of it simple rote memorization. Specialists tend to b
Re:Well, what kind of IT? (Score:5, Interesting)
Whatever you do, unless you move up the ladder, is going to be toast in 5 years or less. Count on it. Then you'll be stuck trying to learn a new skillset so that you can get a new job doing the next hot thing that will be gone in 5 years.
But somebody asking for advice? If you've got a degree or job or are mostly through, get your job, do what you can, but set yourself up to LEAVE IT AND DON'T COME BACK for after your industry collapses or shrinks. If you're just starting, do something else. The promise of CS is ash. If the technical side appeals to you, go into engineering and if the reasoning side appeals, go into math. If you're looking for something other than these, please for the love of god get your degree in something appropriate like psychology or art or english rather than creating little bastardized fields that will leave you unemployable and CS with a bad name.
How would I describe the market? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How would I describe the market? (Score:5, Insightful)
Mamas don't let your babies grow up to be outsourced.
Re:How would I describe the market? (Score:5, Insightful)
C-level bigwhig says "We have an opening in IT, pass it on to HR
HR says "We have an opening in IT, put out an advert"
Response to the advert is 1000+ resumes, which takes HR 3 months just to weed down to 12 perspective candidates.
6 of those candidates have taken other jobs. The other six are put through another 3 months of interviews.
At the end of the interviews, they're lucky if they have ONE candidate suitable.
C-level bigwhig says "It took 6 months to fill ONE IT position? There must be a shortage in IT".
Re:How would I describe the market? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would add that HR automatically filters out anybody that does NOT have a 4 year degree, thereby immediately disqualifying some of the finest candidates.
I work at a fortune 500 in IT. It's so true it's sad.
Heard in a meeting this morning: "The reason why companies use EJBs is because some developers wanted to have that to put on their resumes."
It took us 1 year to fill 4 positions, and 3 are H1.
Re:How would I describe the market? (Score:2, Interesting)
Noooo kidding. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's unbelievable how little Linux system administration experience some candidates have. We're paying a low-to-mid-level salary, so I don't expect to hire a UNIX guru. But these people are failing even the most basic tests. One claimed "Senior UNIX systems administrator" on his resume, but when asked to SSH into a server from a Linux workstation, typed "telnet [server] 25".
Some of the questions we ask in an interview: "Why would you use SSH instead of telnet?" "What is port 25?" "How do you reset the root password on a server when you don't know the current root password?" These are really basic questions, and yet the majority of candidates have no clue how to answer them.
I have a feeling this is only going to get worse as fewer and fewer people enter the IT field. There seems to be a large gap between the entry level, where candidates know little or nothing (or they only know point-and-drool generic PC troubleshooting skills), and the upper end, which demands (but probably deserves) outrageous salaries for knowing how to set up routers and SANs. We're looking for the people fiddling around with Linux servers and setting them up in their spare time who want some on-the-job experience administering and maintaining Linux servers. However, even here in Silicon Valley, that's proven remarkably hard to find. We also keep having to increase our workers' salaries to find even moderately qualified people, which means our costs go up and we can't hire as many people as we need to.
My advice to college students: Go out there and get yourself some experience. There are plenty of jobs out there that you can get right out of college in IT. Sure, they may not pay 6 figures a year, but if you enjoy computers, they're fun jobs. As far as recruiting students into IT, it will probably take a few years before it becomes a popular field again, due to the fact that so many people entered it expecting high salaries several years back. My advice: Set realistic expectations of those entering IT (6 figures right out of college? No. A job right out of college? Probably), and convince those not in a CS/IT major to take elective computer classes in case they want to be in a computer-related field later.
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:2)
Maybe he just wants to send a quick mail before using ssh?
Some of the questions we ask in an interview: "Why would you use SSH instead of telnet?" "What is port 25?" "How do you reset the root password on a server when you do
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:2)
They lied on the resume (i.e., "Senior UNIX systems administrator"), they breeze through the Linux/Unix college course without memorizing and applying a damn thing, or some HR person set up the interview without going over the basic job description. Or, all three. A successful interview depends on honestly on both sides.
Are sysadmins in that high in demand?
Sure, if you can pass the interview.
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
Perhaps instead of trying to find qualified people for a low salary, you should try to find quality people that are intelligent and eager to learn, with minimal experience (they should be able to tell you about ssh and port 25). I have no sympathy for companies that complain about a lack of qualified people when they want the moon in skills but offer a smaller salary than a guy can make driving a fed-ex truck.
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:2)
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
That should tell you that what you are willing to pay is unreasonable for the area. That's not a lot of money for an experienced sysadmin, especially for Silicon Valley. I suggest hiring people to telecommute. You can probably find someone living in a cheaper area (such as the midwest) willing to work for what you are willing to pay.
I have worked for several companies that allow sysadmins to telecommute. It works, but you might have to shift your thinking.
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:5, Interesting)
I started out in 1999 at $45K/year in the Valley. It was very rough, I had enough for my apartment in a crappy (pun not intended) area of town (i.e. walking around human feces and homeless people on the sidewalks) and a bus pass, although I did tend to walk to work a fair amount to save money. After the bare necessities, I did have some money left over for some luxuries, like cable TV and DSL. But, I didn't have a car - and living in the Valley without a car makes a lot of things difficult, like grocery shopping. Not a whole lot of money left over for toys, and forget about supporting a family on that. Luckily my student loans weren't that bad, so I could afford to make payments on them.
I can tell you the only reasons why I survived on that salary:
1. I had very little furniture in my cramped studio apartment. My TV was a Commodore 1702 monitor (12 or 13", I think) with a cable converter. My drawers were baskets that held my clothes
2. I didn't have a car. Therefore, no insurance payments or gas.
3. I had lived on my own for the previous six years (four of them in a dorm room), and was used to having nothing (in the way of personal belongings) except for my computer, toiletries, and clothes.
4. (This is the most important) I had little debt, so I was able to make the minimum payments and keep people off of my back.
But honestly, that's not much of a life to live, and almost everybody wants better than that.
I'm grateful for the experiences that I had and do have upcoming with the company I'm currently working, but I wouldn't be able to do it now in 2005 on only $45K per year (which is what I'm guessing you'd be offering - $45-$50K per year). It's just too expensive to live in Silicon Valley on such a small salary.
If you really want talented people, then I think you'll have to pony up the $60K per year. After getting laid off from that $45K/year job (in 2001), I was asking for almost double, and easily got it. Back then, people were willing to work for promises of better pay, now people don't buy into that hype and want the money up front. As far as I'm concerned, stock options and promises are worth the paper they're printed on, and nothing more, until I actually get cash in my bank account from them.
-- Joe
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:4, Insightful)
Be fair - it's not "someone" saying this... from the look of it, it's everyone.
"I don't think it's that dire, though."
With respect, you appear to be in the minority. As your problems hiring someone for this money would also tend to indicate.
"I'm the CEO of the company and my salary is less than $60K/year. My techs are paid hourly -- sometimes, during rough periods, they get paid more than I do. I maanage to live just fine here in San Jose on a $50K/year salary."
Funny thing - you're starting out on a new(ish) business. You admit you still aren't profitable. You (presumably) own the business, you have something invested in it, therefore you should accept lower wages since you're making an investment for the future. Your employees (from the sound of it) do not have any investment, therefore they do not stand to benefit substantially from your business growing, therefore they will require their motivation in decent wages and good working conditions, not in jam-tomorrow "if the company grows we all benefit" rhetoric.
The dotcom era is over. People no longer trust an entrepreneur with big ideas and a business plan that leads to staggering profits in five years, and certainly won't exchange their present comfort for what amounts to a bet on your success as a businessperson.
If people don't own part of the business, they won't be willing to trade present wages for future success. And frankly, even if you offer stock options or some other method of "ownership", you'll still have to find someone who really, really believes that you're going to be successful.
And, not to be rude, but you aren't Google, or Friends Reunited, where you could secure venture capital, grow exponentially and those stock options end up worth a lot. You're an ISP - essentially a commodity vendor, and one who could even ultimately end up being squeezed out by something like municipal wi-fi access.
"The highest salary I've ever had here in the Bay Area working for another company was $49,500. It wasn't easy to live on, but I did it."
Well then - there you go $50,000 wasn't easy to live on, and from the sound of it $60,000 still isn't easy to live on now. And how long ago was it that you were living on $49,500? Don't forget to factor in inflation...
"I'm a little bit better off now that I have my own business, but the fact is that most of my business's revenue gets reinvested into the business. That's what we have to work with. Sorry, folks.
Indeed, and this is the proper method for someone who owns a small business (I do too, so don't think I'm just talking out of my arse about this). However, you aren't going to find employees who are willing to take the same risk as you without the possibility of the same reward as you.
The company is your baby, so you'll make sacrifices to help it grow. Either make the company your employees' baby too, or make the pay for babysitting worthwhile.
Training (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Training (Score:2, Interesting)
I've met 18-year-olds who were geniuses and who knew way more than the above. We can and do hire them.
Re:Training (Score:3, Informative)
Molog
Jobs on Slashdot (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Training (Score:5, Insightful)
I've got 15 years experience working AIX, Linux, Macintosh, Sun, but mostly (by far) Windows. I've done some VB programming, shell scripting, perl, java - not really my bag baby, but I can do it.
And I would have failed your questions.
And I would have passed the Windows equivalent of your questions.
And in the real world, were I confronted with those questions, I would have used google or MAN and found answers in under 60 seconds. Inside a week, such trivialities would be second nature to me.
I know Windows, because that's what I'm exposed to on a daily basis, and our company had Linux gurus for Linux problems, and I focus my skills on what's in front of my face on any given day.
If you would fail me on an interview because I couldn't answer those questions, you'd be making a huge, horrible mistake. If you would take it on faith that such questions would not be any trouble for me in the real world where I have resources and can recalibrate, and then offer me $60k, I would laugh in your face. For the Bay area, or where I live today.
Your problem is your hiring policy.
Re:Training (Score:3, Insightful)
If you would have failed those questions, then you're not qualified to be a Linux admin. It's as simple as that.
I would have passed the Windows equivalent of your questions.
No, you wouldn't have. For two of those questions, the "Windows equivalent" are the questions verbatim.
If you would fail me on an interview because I couldn't answer those questions, you'd be making a huge, horrible mistake.
No, if she hired you to be a Linux admin, she'd be making a huge, horrible mis
Recent History (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
OK, lemme see if I understand your predicament...you want to hire an entry level admin at subsistence wages, complain you can't find anyone with the qualifications you expect and, apparently, won't hire anyone with fewer qualifications and train them , and then have the gall to tell students to go out and get more experience ?
Am I the only one to see the irony here ?
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's literally an education thing for business - if they want the market of available employees to be better, there has to be flexibility in every environment for people to learn. This not only includes NOT burning their employees out but also giving them the ability to promote a learning environment.
HR - Fight back when someone says I want "All This" and ask the hard questions - What do you really need this person to do? Without this person, what business impact is there? Shouldn't we pay this person decent money if they can help prevent loss and risk?
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:3, Interesting)
that port 25 is smtp
that SSH is encrypted and telnet isn't
that you once forgot the root pwd on your own machine or helped a friend who had
And I know what he means when he says he sees resumes with "senior sys admin" on them who can't answer these.
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:2)
Actually, I consider your post to be great news. It helps validate my suspicion that the pool of "skilled" IT labor is mostly illusory. (OK, so it's only good news were I looking for a job; otherwise it means a greater danger of encountering such "skilled" workers.) In any case, it still provides that warm fuzzy feeling of seeing most of the potential competition milling about in some deep ravine.
That kind of qualification smokes my baloney (Score:5, Insightful)
That's exactly the kind of "qualification" that is irrelevant. Do you know the COM3 default base port on obsolete PCs (0x3E8, INT 4)? If not, you are an ignorant poseur who should go back to tending cattle in Elbonia.
I have considerable Delphi experience yet am passed up constantly for Delphi jobs because my experience is either too old, or TOO NEW, FFS. This kind of microfiltering of qualifications is bullshit. I'm a computer scientist. What I need to accomplish the task, I learn. I've written Perl scripts. Can I even write a simple Perl script during a job interview? No. Can I learn enough in a couple of days to hack it up like a pro? Hell yes.
I hate the programming field, it's full of paradigm-driven morons who are too busy playing with UML and "Design Patterns". You can have them.
Re:That kind of qualification smokes my baloney (Score:5, Insightful)
The correct answer is simple, and shows an important piece of knowledge -- a sysadmin who doesn't at least grasp the importance of cryptography will get his servers 0wned and r00ted within about ten minutes.
See, that's how you filter out interviewees -- by asking them questions.
I also ask applicants about their favorite command-line tools and whether or not they run a Unix at home. The ones that use Unix for their home systems invariably have an excellent grasp of the command line and know how to troubleshoot, whereas the people who have just 'played' with Linux/BSD, installing it on a spare box and never using it, don't. How is this somehow bad?
Re:That's ridiculous (Score:3)
Look, I know what ssh does, and you know what ssh does, and we think nothing of it - I use it every day, and you probably do, too.
But, the fact remains: If you're willing to hire someone at $30,000/yr, and you require them to know how to use SSH, and people who know who live in San Jose require $60,000/yr, you're not going to get anyone. The practical matter that it isn't a hard concept to understand doesn't negate the fact that it differentiates column A from column B.
The obvious answer is to find a brigh
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:5, Insightful)
Can't find people to hire.
Won't hire folks without senior level experience.
Advice to college students: Go find a job without senior level experience and get learned up so we can hire you.
Only problem.... that's what every business is doing. The place I work for hires -only- senior people with at least 8 years experience. Everything else (175+ positions) is done by entry level people in india.
CLUE???
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:4, Funny)
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:2)
Re:Noooo kidding. (Score:2)
Compounded error: Trusting the documentation.
Suggested resolution: Google "rainbow tables" and "john the ripper". For further reading, look into the older DES cracking efforts.
Re:How do I get an interview? (Score:3, Interesting)
AC wrote:
Look for the kind of jobs that *are* available in your geographical area and adapt those skills?
By the time I've gone to school to learn those jobs, they won't be in demand anymore.
Work on some homebrew projects with an interesting idea focusing on the above skillset
I already have worked on homebrew projects [pineight.com], but despite my homebrew projects, employers don't want me.
adding a few more projects to your resume even if these are your own ideas that you have or will implement (think java
Re:How do I get an interview? (Score:3, Insightful)
Well... (Score:2, Interesting)
The list does not leave much for an 18-year-old PHP developer with special interest in UNIX and overall network, web and server security. The list of job offers has more to offer to a person who can call himself a "Senior Software Engineer" who can develop in
I'm a little bit frustrated, but there are a few... a very few com
Re:Well... (Score:4, Funny)
This is kind of a no brainer, seeing as how there are very, very few companies that are actually using UNIX systems. Most use Windows. For SMEs I'd guess that close to 95% use Windows.
Ergo, they are not looking for a UNIX admin. They need a windows admin to run their ADS, exchange server, and whatever other rubbish they need. Outlook calendar expierience required. You'll also need to know how to set up wireless routers, but security training, or indeed giving a danm about security is not required.
This isn't very hard. A lot of SME windows admins are the company accountant.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
If I may offer some gentle advice...
Believe it or not, there's more to know about computers than just hobbyist PHP coding. Instead of deciding that anyone who knows what SAP is must be a jargon-spouting, Windows-using moron, realize that you know a tiny bit and have an enormous amount to learn. At a minimum, try dialing back the attitude a bit when you int
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Alternatively, go to school. You'll be better off in the long run.
Re:Well... (Score:2)
Try college. It works wonders for resumes, and in the world of computing the algorithms and theory will set you far apart from any self taught coder. It'll teach you when not to recreate the wheel, will save you lots of time, get you a better paying job (unless you have the luck of B. Gates) and help you write better code.
Since geeks have gone mainstream recently, ... (Score:2, Funny)
Suggested dress code: Clip-on tie, pocket protector, white shirt, lab coat, horn-rimmed glasses.
My suggestion for getting a job in IT (Score:5, Insightful)
There are definitely jobs to be had for people who can support the infrastructure of what it takes to do business in today's world. You just need to be able to apply what you know to what is being done.
Re:My suggestion for getting a job in IT (Score:2)
Hands on invites (Score:3, Interesting)
I have 3 friends with college degrees in an IT field who took Geek Squad jobs after losing 6 figure jobs. I wouldn't hire them for even G.S.'s salary, I know they're lacking in business knowledge and skills.
It is far cheaper and more profitable to get a geek out of high school. I'm looking for a digital helper now, and I'll be looking to hire from people I meet in forums, not another kid with a useless piece of paper and 4 years of debt.
Want to get kids in? Scout at Best Buy and Circuit City this Christmas. Meet possible future students hands-on and talk about how they can work and attend a community college, a better way to further their futures.
Re:Hands on invites (Score:2)
Something seems odd here. How much were you offering?
Re:Come on, Mods. (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't want to subsidize 4 years of partying. One of my partners is a college grad and he knows he wasted all that time.
The fact that your offers are being turned down by college grads and can be done by high school kids leads me to believe that you're either doing HTML work or your products are comprised of bad software.
Or our company works in a non-software industry handling bids and B
Time to downsize some CS departments (Score:3, Funny)
Maybe it's time for some colleges to shitcan their CS/CIS programs. There's plenty of colleges with, shall we say, less-than-stellar programs, facilities and instructors. Maybe those schools should go back to what they're good at.
Like, say... philosophy.
Sad truth is... (Score:3, Interesting)
To be quite fair, I couldn't recommend the industry to someone unless they really loved the work.
IT woes (Score:2)
The good ol' days... (Score:5, Insightful)
The jobs are going overseas, as investors are mandating it either for cost reasons or because they now have a stake in some offshore concern. The jobs are emotionally frustuating because management expects programming to work on time and on budget like other engineering disciplines, but in practice its still an academic exercise with little thought to design and expectations. And, increasingly the vendors have turned the jobs into a vocational trade and not the creative and intellectual exercise it used to be.
There are still good jobs out there, but you'll have to make them yourself and hope you hang in there long enough to run the company and outsource the work to someone else. Otherwise, your a network support guy or sitting at a help desk in some cubicle waiting for the phone to ring for a question from an idiot in Finance.
But I'm not bitter...
Re:The good ol' days... (Score:2)
Maybe (Score:3, Insightful)
You could try and get the companies that have been hiring your grads to make a bit of a splash about it. Create literature to promote your school that contains testomonials from the companies that hire your grads. Have the companies come on campus to interview if you can and make it fairly high profile so that people notice. After that you'll have real proof that students from your program are getting hired and finding jobs.
Another path, not one you might like, but one nonetheless is to promote your school to foreign students. The local university in my town has quite a few foreign students and has traditionally had quite a few Indoneasian students. A lot of them come from word of mouth from other students. It another way to help your enrollment and from groups that are growing instead of shrinking.
Say No to IT (Score:3)
There is no way I would try to recruit young people in to this field. Doing so would be a breach of trust.
Try changing the name (Score:2)
IT carries so much baggage these days. Phrases like 'data mining', user interface design, industrial design for example dont seem to have been hit (image wise) quite so bad.
I'm an embedded systems designer, and love the work.
Also, you might try and place someone like me - a professional with a passion for the work they do - in front of them during enrolment drives. I'm sure some 'real life' enthusiasm will rub off.
Waiting for those Baby Boomers to retire... (Score:3, Interesting)
I will be graduating next semester with an associate degree in computer programming. I currently have certifications in A+, Network+ and Windows 2000, and will have the Microsoft Certified System Administrator (MCSA) next year. I'm currently working on the IBM Help Desk for a large company, working 40-hours a week and making the same amount of money that I was making working 80-hours a week as a lead tester at a video game company. The future will only get better.
Chicken and egg experience problem (Score:3, Informative)
I would bet you almost anything that you'll have students flocking to you if you state that you have entry-level/new graduate positions open.
Easy Solution (Score:3, Informative)
Advertise in India...
perception (Score:3, Insightful)
At least they seem to be very perceptive!
I don't know what to tell you, friend. (Score:5, Interesting)
Tell him to stick it! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Tell him to stick it! (Score:2)
Easy to bridge these two together. Also met my future wife. Who is not only a hottie, but a unix queen.
Puto
Bit of advice. (Score:5, Insightful)
I certainly beleive you have 8 years of experience. But if you do the math, you show your professional career began at 16.
When someone sees this in an hr department this resume will immediately go to the bottom of the pile. It appears to have been padded.
I am 35, and have been working with computers since I was 12.
I start my work experience from age 18. By which time you are normally out of school.
A resume looks good with all of your skills, just don't say the length of time if it started in your teen years.
I had an interviewer call me on this a long time ago. Took his advice.
Another tip is your years in the business should be matched by job dates on a resume.
Puto
Thanks for the advice. (Score:2)
Re:Bit of advice. (Score:3, Funny)
You have to pay them, people. (Score:3, Interesting)
You're complaining that you can't get people to come pay you to take your classes so they can work for free for somebody else. Right.
Sorta (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Sorta (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry, but it *does* suck (Score:3, Insightful)
There are occasional jobs in the upper ranges, but no one wants to hire. It's even more ridiculous in the security field in the Midwest, as no one wants to hire someone with dangerously technical knowledge here, especially if they are young. There's a level of maturity that you just can't prove in a resume, and the more technical expertise you have, the more of a hiring liability you appear as.
I have told my younger brother's and sister's friends looking at IT-related jobs to look at other majors first. Just because they like their iPods and Bittorrent does not make them technically skilled to compete. I think the real problem lately has been rewarding "management experience" over "technical experience" by some of the major Fortune 500s.
You can reward your managers all you want, but if you aren't hand-over-fist for your geeky tech-types, you're just providing less incentive for truly skilled people to work at your place of employment. And you'll end up getting management-heavy, which ultimately will end up costing you money.
Actually Id advise them to do the plumbing course. (Score:5, Interesting)
Major choosing (Score:5, Insightful)
1) They think they'll make a lot of money doing it.
2) They think they'd enjoy doing that the rest of their lives.
Seems like you're worried too much about group 1. Don't. Ignore them. You're better off if they major in business or Chemical Engineering or Sports Medicine or whatever else strikes their fancy. They're not really interested in the field. There are worse motivations, and many people are successful who are mostly looking for a payday, but that's not who you should focus your attention on.
For the second group, that are already interested, you need to convince them that they'll be able to make a living at it, and that this is more interesting to them than another field. I can't offer super specific advice, since I don't find IT interesting in the least (I'm a perl programmer) - but you probably want to give as much real world examples of what kinds of jobs people actually get in IT and problems they actually solve. The people who are drawn in, those are the ones you want to keep.
And really, above all else, treat the students with respect. This will be so strange and rare, you'll instantly be a step up on how most people seem to approach them.
They See the Future Correctly (Score:5, Insightful)
I run an IT Consulting company and cannot recommend this to family or friends. I am not pessimistic about my company's ability to earn money and keep me comfortable, but in general it is an ugly market to enter.
Here is what the typical college graduate in IT will encounter.
. You will start at fair wages and long hours. Under difficult deadlines and penny pinching companies you will be squeezed for everything you can produce.
. You are considered an "expense" that must be controlled. More often than not you will get an "good boy" instead of a bonus.
. You are as respected and appreciated as a union laborer.
. There is a pervasive belief that you are interchangeable with any other developer at half the price.
. Unlike other industries where age implies experience (and we can all argue whether it should), in IT age is taken as an indicator of being "behind".
. If you do not work at a software company, you salary will top out around 35 and you will get slightly lower than COLA in subsequent years.
. There is always someone willing to do your job for less than. They will be in two categories Offshore or Fresh out of University. It does not make sense logically, but bean counters do not use logic of this type.
. Your experience is weighed against your age/salary and with few exceptions age/salary will do you in. I often (too often) hear people say for what they pay a 40 year developer they can get three out of college - and then they do.
. Churn is high, making job security low - It is a myth contractors are fired first.
As I said, I make my living on this and while I hire and pay well, most of my competitors do not. They often win bids because they can low ball me. I often win second rounds because the first round was spent with nothing produced and we put a team on the ground that gets results. However, success does not matter these days, its all about price. I can guarantee a project for $700,000 and someone with next to zero experience bidding $675,000 will get it. Most often they bid $250,000 figuring once they get in it will be hard to get them out. (There is a reason recruiters for programming shops are called pimps)
Well, now that I vented most of that, I feel better. I am guessing this will end up flame-bait or troll (of which it is neither). It is a reflection of my frustration as I watch good developers move into other industries so they can have a family and pay a mortgage.
If you really want to help your students, stop teaching regular IT and focus on niche markets - embedded systems, AI, robotics. Things that are bleeding edge. Make the course horribly difficult so only the best and brightest make it through. It is better to choose another career in college than at 40. Add project management courses and "learning to learn" because anyone entering this as profession will need to stay on the bleeding edge or be unemployed. The difficult part for you will be replacing the instructors you have with those that can teach these topics.
Now I am guessing people will reply to this with - "Hey - I am doing fine" and that's good for them. I see the industry as a whole, not just the individual programmers and it does not look pretty for a career. For the top 20% sure - the rest...
Re:They See the Future Correctly (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you've got it right on.
I wonder though, that this is just a trend that spans all disciplines. The argument holds sway (to idiots) in the same way: get someone younger for cheaper (they're nearly as good); get someone out of the country for cheaper (they nearly speak English, but, close enough); get anyone cheaper who's willing (they're not as good, but, hey, they're cheaper).
I think these are some very wrong attitudes, probably coming from some business curriculum. Lots of ideas that look good o
Just don't (Score:2)
The whole batch of people who came into it for the money just makes my job suck, and I am glad they are gone (Being replaced by consultants from India, but their time is limited as well).
Seriously, to me it's exactly like saying "How do great artists attract more apprentices?
IT isnt hot anymore. (Score:2)
Luckily i work as a Linux admin and get to play with my precious linux all day long. For me
IT Jobs (Score:2)
Are you in India? (Score:2, Insightful)
Although in the longer run we see Indian employers themselves outsourcing to Vietnam, Bangladesh and Malaysia. Not so much China though.
They don't think that there is any money in it? (Score:2, Interesting)
All I have my A+ cert and a lot of experience. If kids don't think that getting an associate or certificate program at a Community College can get them a job then they are dead wrong.
The great thing is that they don't have to stop after that. After getting a lesser degree in comp. sci or a certificate through a program they can continue their education (what
I'd tell them STAY AWAY -- FAR AWAY!! (Score:3)
Granted, I live in the midwest, where we're behind the curve a bit on employment trends. (I just saw a chart claiming that at least in the St. Louis, Missouri area where I live, employment rates have been changing about 10 months behind the national average. So if the economy starts improving, we won't really see it here for close to a year afterwards.) So maybe those on the coasts are seeing something better happening?
But no, as a rule, I can't see value in someone trying to just break into I.T. at this point, pouring thousands into a college education for the purpose. If your destiny truly is I.T., you're probably somebody that's been doing it since you could first hold a mouse and type on a keyboard - and you're going to completely ignore any advice to avoid it anyway. But otherwise, don't bother. My opinion is, there are far too many "guru quality" I.T. pros out there who can't even hang onto decent jobs - so why try to push your way into that whole mess?
Ethics (Score:2)
I'm sure I'm not the only one who groans at TV commercials for "massage therapy" and other bullshit programs at colleges (IA
From the perspective of a recent IT graduate... (Score:5, Insightful)
Now if you agree with what I've just said, take into consideration the following: the private sector does not hire IT workers without experience. The notion that there are 'more jobs' available is probably true -- but look at the requirements. This is not the dot-com era any longer -- it's impossible for a no-knowledge, just out of school, wet behind the ears college graduate is going to get an awesome job without the skills necessary to help the company they work for achieve their business goals (and this is a large reason why the dot-com era went as bust as it did).
Pick up a paper, or check Monster, CareerBuilder, Dice -- all the IT positions are looking for *seasoned* employees. "5-7 Years experience." "Senior level position." These are some of the tag words that will put college graduates out of business when it comes to looking for a job. And *that* is the reason why nobody wants to get into IT.
There was a recent article in Information Week that explained the HUGE age disparity between IT workers. The reason is, that *most* companies aren't changing things around every day -- it's very cost prohibitive and it requires way too much overhead. They stick with the same technologies, so companies continue to run Windows NT 4.0 and the like -- and as a result, the same people stay in their jobs. This creates no openings 'on the bottom', and it's the most glaring thing to me in the IT world.
If you want to solve the problem of low enrollment in IT programs -- it's not to do with the job market. It's to do with the lack of INTERNSHIPS and REAL EXPERIENCE that employers are looking for. Unfortunately for me, the career services center in my school was useless, and I had a VERY tough time, and after lying on my resume about experience in years, I finally landed a crappy IT job. I'm much better off now, but the fact remains -- how can you expect students to line up for IT programs in a school, if you don't teach them what BUSINESS needs are important to keep met, instead of teaching them about "blahblah theory of x and y". Those theories make you competent programmers, but the 'quick and dirty' method of coding is often what's used and in business, it's what people want -- results.
So as a college professor, you have to work with major companies to get REAL internships to these students. They have to become PART of the curriculum. The idea of going to college, completing X number of credits, and graduating to a great job is OVER. The year is 2005 -- and money talks. Numbers are what counts, and if that number is how fast they want you to complete a project, how often they upgrade, how many years of experience you have, or the retention length on IT workers it translates into only ONE number -- the paycheck you're going to be bringing home. And if you don't have the skills from college to make it in the BUSINESS WORLD, then the doors that open so infrequently for entry level IT workers simply won't exist.
Tips for hiring new IT workers (Score:2, Funny)
Simple (Score:2, Interesting)
Tell them they'll be vaulued, their opinions valued and their employers will care how they feel. Tell them that some bean counter who has no idea of what's going on will ever cut their budget, staffing or supplies. That the Help Desk will have to never support 6k users with a staff of 2 or 3.
Sorry, that's not just IT anymore, that's everywhere
OR, tell them the plumber will make more $$ than they do.
My honest statement to potential IT students- RUN (Score:3, Interesting)
It's getting worse.
Unless you just love doing IT more than eating RUN AWAY now.
If you love it, you might get a no-respect job with no job security that pays well for 5 to 10 years before they lay you off.
Get any pay UP FRONT.50% of people in the field have trouble finding work after 45. 90% have trouble finding work after 55 (maybe 99%).
If you want to be happy, get a degree where you need to be physically present to do the work. Nothing that is pure thinking- because anyone- anywhere can think for 5 cents vs your dollar.
Ask me again in 20 years after worldwide wages even out and the answer will be different- but until indian, albanian, and chinese programmers are making $40k annually (at least) this job category is going to suck.
The ONE IT field you might make a go of is some kind of network engineer.
Ignore everything I said if you are a prodigy or genius- they are always hiring prodigies or geniuses. But if you are merely smarter than average (say 130 IQ or less) forget it and be smart enough to find another field.
Re:Editors (Score:2)
Not in US English:
Dictionary
enroll |en?r?l| ( Brit. enrol) verb ( -rolled , -rolling ) [ intrans. ] officially register as a member of an institution or a student on a course : he enrolled in drama school. [ trans. ] register (someone) as a member or student : the school enrolls approximately 1,000 students. [ trans. ] recruit (someone) to perform a service : a campaign to enroll more foster carers. [ trans. ] historical Law enter (a deed or other document) among
Re:Editors (Score:2)
Re:Editors (Score:2)
It turns out that this was an American unintentionally complaining about proper British grammar.
People generally have stopped complaining about grammatical errors in the submitted texts on MacSlash now, because there's a realization that spelling and grammar rules can vary slightly between American English and British/ International/ Commonwealth English.
Seriously, it's n
Re:Editors (Score:2)
And I wouldn't normally bother, but there have been so many errors in summaries lately that I felt the need to comment.