Balancing Use Between the Keyboard and Mouse? 121
initialE wonders: "A friend of mine, working for a bank, mentioned to me that she had just undergone training for the migration of applications from their legacy systems (think DOS-based interface, AS400 powered) to a snazzy new web application. Whereas the younger users were impressed by the bling it provided, the older users were less happy, and the reason provided was that the application lacked shortcut keys to doing their most common tasks. The newer staff were mighty pleased not to have to learn all those arcane commands, of course. This led me to consider a few things. I administer Windows-based systems, and more and more I am choosing to use whatever key-based interface is available - I don't even use the file explorer anymore, preferring to type 'WindowsKey+R', and typing in the file path (Windows helps with auto-complete). It's better for me to keep my hands on the keyboard and not touch the mouse. It's certainly not because my mouse is bad, I just don't want to release the focus on the keyboard. And it works - I get things done a lot faster than anyone else in my department. Have we placed too much emphasis on making GUI-based applications, and left behind what was a perfectly good way of doing things?"
GUI-CLI (Score:5, Informative)
Re:GUI-CLI (Score:3, Informative)
Re:GUI-CLI (Score:1)
the combination of launchbar, Terminal.app (loading my own window settings layout), Finder (when its needed) and the rest of the OSX GUI experience means that i only really use my mouse when i have to; certainly not all the time, only when its really neede
Re:GUI-CLI (Score:2)
I've got a few links here [celsius1414.com] for how-tos on setting bash in vi mode (set -o vi) and subsequent usage, and setting up Firefox with vi/vim keybindings.
And as I mentioned the other day, I knew I had gotten thoroughly adjusted to using vim w
Re:GUI-CLI (Score:2)
Fortunately, my pal Steve Jobs listened to me(*), and as a result you'll see popular emacs shortcut control keys in all Cocoa text boxes, including the one in Safari I'm using right now.
I can use Control-N, P, F, B, etc. Pity I can't use Control-S, but you can't win 'em all.
Of course I'll never use FireFox or Opera more than casually since they use their own Windows-style widgets and as a result the Cocoa
Re:GUI-CLI (Score:2)
Have you tried Camino?
http://www.caminobrowser.org/ [caminobrowser.org]
New beta versions out are reportedly spiffy.
Re:GUI-CLI (Score:2)
Not for long, sadly. The control keystrokes do not work within the editing window, so I guess they're using the FireFox widgets, not Apple's.
It does use a few of Apple's - the <select> element works in an Apple-style way, as do the preview and submit buttons, but the text box appears to be FireFox's.
Pity
D
the problem is (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:the problem is (Score:2)
Uhm... (Score:1, Insightful)
Yes.
Re:Uhm... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Uhm... (Score:1, Funny)
I must be on the wrong website.
Re:Uhm... (Score:1)
At all.
Both webapps and ordinary apps are very awkward to use,
probably because that people lack knowledge of how a
real application should work.
Webapps fails because it lacks all conveniences that comes
with a decent modern GUI toolkit.
Ordinary apps fails because the programmer have misinterpreted
the model. Most GUI widgets are mainly targeted for popups and
wizards, but the programmer is more or less expected to do the
actual main interface himself.
Example; think of Microsoft Excel, i
Re:Uhm... (Score:2)
Re:Uhm... (Score:2)
Fuxed.
Re:Uhm... (Score:2)
Dammit.
Poetic responce (Score:3, Insightful)
Er, something like that.
I like both, both have thier place.
Some times click click and being done with something is great, while other times having a command line to type EXACTLY what you want is a life saver.
To me, it's all about what you want to do.
Chat (irssi for irc and bitlbee) is command line if possible.
Web design (Dreamweaver MX 2004) is a good balance. Point, click, edit code, flex the geek and the mouse.
Graphic design (GIMP) is almost 100% mouse for me. GIMP and World of Warcraft are the reason I bought a trackball.
Definitely (Score:1)
Of course, we also use software that won't allow word wrap over multiple lines. I think that cost extra.
It's not the Gui per se... (Score:3, Informative)
Yes and no... (Score:4, Interesting)
Way back when the Mac as new (mid '80s), Apple tries this with a stopwatch. People reported they were faster with the shortcut keys, but when forced to move their hand to the mouse they got the job done in half the time.
Now be careful about reading this - this was for a very specific task. Each task varies. However the point is that you need to make an objective measure before you can say one is better - sometimes your perceptions lie.
Part of this depends on how much training is worth. Phone operators (who do the same job for years on end, apparently switching jobs is/was rare) find it worthwile to learn command that save them 1/10 of a second, even though they need an all day training course to learn it. That command is something they do all day though (I don't know what the task is/was), so it is worth the phone companies money in the long run to train operators to use the shortcuts.
One advantage of shortcuts is even when there is no significant advantage, it allows some people to feel more elite than others. This can stoke their ego, and make them hang onto a bad job just to show the youngsters how "real men" do it.
Remember though this is a computer. You should be automating any task that you do often. Control-R, type (with completion) a command is not as fast as a shortcut key that starts that command in one touch. It may or may not be faster than putting an icon for that application on the desktop or in the taskbar. Remember to use a stopwatch to time this, not your gut feeling.
Re:Yes and no... (Score:3)
Re:Yes and no... (Score:1)
new folder
do the same thing in windows..
Re:Yes and no... (Score:2)
Re:Yes and no... (Score:1)
(In fact, I spend most of my time waiting for Windows to catch up when I make the folder...)
Re:Yes and no... (Score:2)
Command Shift N - new folder.
Re:Yes and no... (Score:2, Interesting)
But, I have been in the position the original poster describes. I worked in a bank that rolled out a browser based front end for an AS400 terminal app. I could help a customer with a complex request using the terminal before a new person with the browser could even have the customer info pulled up.
The difference was that I was using a keyboard interface for a system t
More than that (Score:2)
Apple latter admitted they chose a task that was specifically easier with a mouse.
I can't recall exactly, but I think it was replace a sentence in a document, where it starts in the middle of one line and continues onto the next, but there is more after it. Most keyboard shortcuts do not work as well for the replacement.
Re:Yes and no... (Score:1)
With a browser app, you're constantly having to describe the screen:
"OK, now do you see a little button that looks like a magnifying glass"
"Yes, do I press that?"
"No, press the one next to it that I can't describe because I have no idea what flavour of crack our designers w
Re:Yes and no... (Score:2)
Basically, when averaging all and looking at most common tasks, mouse is, in reality, much faster, HOWEVER keyboard is almost universally reported as faster. Reason? Mouse and keyboard usages occupie di
Re:Yes and no... (Score:2)
Keyboard navigability (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Keyboard navigability (Score:2)
CLI is great for stuff you do all the time, but today there are many more different things people do with their computers than back in 1995. copy a file from floppy, open word processor, write away? using a mouse for that would be such a waste of time.
today people who are averagely accustomed with their GUI system can casually do email, IM, voip, filesharing, cd burning and a ton of other things without ever having read a manual (that the world might be better off if
Question (Score:2, Funny)
>Have we placed too much emphasis on making GUI-based applications, and left behind
>what was a perfectly good way of doing things?
Yes.
Next question for the guru to answer?
Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:5, Insightful)
Modern UI designers have an unfair bias towards designing for the new user. The emphasis is to make the new user get up to speed as painlessly as possible. In other words, the design of the inerface should cater for "Easy to Learn". This is a fundamental principle in modern user interface design.
Now. "Easy to Use" is not the same thing as "Easy to Learn". They are not necessarily orthongonal, but they tend to be. So while your new graphical application is easy to learn for the new user, the experienced power user finds it cumbersome to use. Note that a easy to use application can take a long time to master. For example, all the short cut keys in your old application requires effort and time to memorize.
The standard argument is that if the application is hard to learn, people won't buy it. Therefore, if we need to sacrifice ease of use, for the sake of ease of learning, so be it.
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:1)
"Easy to Learn" sells better (Score:3, Interesting)
It appeals to the people evaluating your software package for purchase, because again, they aren't going to spend a month learning to use something if they aren't already sure they're going to purchase it.
Convincing people that it's worth spending time learning anything is a Very Hard sell indeed. Look at your average high school for proof.
In order to do that, you need some whizzbang testimonials from fanati
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:3, Insightful)
I've recently made the switch to OS X, and this is one of the few aspects of Windows that I miss.
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:2)
Sam
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:3, Informative)
Not *quite* the same thing, but if you go to the Keyboard & Mouse System Preference, then to the Keyboard Shortcuts tab, you'll find at the bottom "Full Keyboard Access" -- change that to All Controls and you'll be able to tab to most controls. In that same Preference tab you'll find a metric crapload of navigation shortcuts for moving keyboard focus among windows, Dock, menus, etc.
Also, there are a ton of s
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:4, Informative)
http://docs.info.apple.com/article.html?artnum=75
Also, most menus have key shortcuts listed on the Mac, and the best part is the consistancy between applications on what the shortcuts mean and do.
I actually find myself using shortcuts more in OSX than I did in Windows.
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:2)
BTW, I challenge you to try to navigate through a typical software installation process on OS X without using the mouse. I never did find a way to move the focus b
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:2)
For example:
My Typical applications i use in a week are:
3270 emulator
Firefox
Word
jEdit
Outlook
File explorer/manager
Media Player Classic
cygwin
calculator
gimp
With a possibility of 10*26*3 (apps*keys*modifiers) >1000 possible a
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:1)
What amazes me is that with the prevalence of laptops, we're basically back to the keyboard layout that inspired the Wordstar command set, yet our software presumes we have an acre of keyboard real-estate, and room f
Re:Easy To Use VS Easy to Learn (Score:2)
Kidding aside, I have a feeling that text editors as we know them, Emacs/Vim, will go down the same path as WordStar and WordPerfect 5.1.
They should be fired (Score:2)
For applications, like these bank teller application, where the uses will be using it as thier full time job, keyboard shortcuts are a must. They even make keyboard with extra keys design for heavy use.
The application developers who created it and the people at the bank who approved it should be fired.
Re:They should be fired (Score:2)
Web developer stupidity (Score:5, Informative)
Okay, if the users wanted keyboard shortcuts, why didn't the web developers include them? It's not as if HTML doesn't have support for this. [w3.org]
A properly constructed GUI application should be just as usable with the keyboard as older applications. Web applications throw up a couple of minor hurdles, but no real showstoppers. The question seems pointless because you can have the best of both worlds easily.
Re:Web developer stupidity (Score:2)
Two great reasons:
Re:Web developer stupidity (Score:1)
Just for the record - in IE6, Firefox/Win and Firefox/X11, if you bind a key to accesskey F it overrides the Alt+F that would otherwise bring up the file menu (In Windows you can still hit F10 to browse the menus with the keyboard).
Re:Web developer stupidity (Score:2)
Please don't do this to me. Leave my keyboard alone when I'm in a textbox, or I'll really, really hate your application.
D
Re:Web developer stupidity (Score:2)
This allows you, if you wish, to remove the accesskeys
Enter KDE (Score:1)
In the konqueror 3.5 branch pressing ctrl gives a shortcut to all the links on the page, so you can do total browsing without a mouse--very useful.
For things like that, KDE tends to be alot better than Windows.
Adding shortcuts for highly repetitive actions (Score:2, Interesting)
the answer to your question.. (Score:3, Insightful)
Have we placed too much emphasis on making GUI-based applications, and left behind what was a perfectly good way of doing things?
YES. Next question?
Seriously, this is a classic example of a common problem in IT. The problem is called "not having a fucking clue". Instead of objectively determining what the best solution to a problem is, people just use whatever they know. All they know is web apps, so that's what they create.
For repetitive, screen-oriented tasks, where the interface is stable, and the user can be trained ahead of time, a simple text GUI with keyboard shortcuts is almost always more efficient and therefore cost-effective. Of course, you shouldn't assume this without objective measurements (use a stopwatch, as the poster above suggested), but in my experience it's true.
Haven't you ever seen a receptionist or a teller staring at her screen, moving her hands from the "mousing position" (one hand on the mouse, one on the keyboard) to the "keyboard position" (touch-typing position) and back again? She enters some data, uses the mouse to get to the next field or screen, goes back to entering data.. and it takes twice as long as it should.
Some of this is lack of training of course ("with our snazzy web-based interface, you DON'T NEED to train" .. yeah, what bullshit.. how about telling her about the Tab key for instance?).. but much of it is the stupid interface.
Not to mention that now instead of display and keyboard, employees now need display, keyboard, and MOUSE .. it gets gunked up, it falls off the desk, it breaks and needs to be replaced.
Some tasks are good for the mouse, but data entry, and/or paging through screens is not one of them. For that you just need a text UI (with appropriate use of color) and a reliable keyboard.
Usually the best thing to do is ask the experienced users who are already efficient on the old system: "what do you think of the new system"? Which I believe you did.. Of course, most companies don't seem to bother with that...
Re:the answer to your question.. (Score:2)
This is where the pointing stick found on all IBM ThinkPads really shines. Instead of moving my hand I just move my right index finger from the J key to in between G and H. On laptops without the stick, I find that even glidepoints which let you use your thumb are way better than a m
Re:the answer to your question.. (Score:2)
My favorite Windows keyboard shortcut (Score:1)
You can walk up to the average Windows user, who is leaving his/her keyboard unguarded, and hit alt-F4 four or five times and every app and window is closed, and the machine is at the prompt to shut down.
What's particularly fun about this is the way the Windows user desperately clings to the mouse while it's happening.
Re:My favorite Windows keyboard shortcut (Score:1)
The Key to the Keys (Score:2)
You correctly perceive a big problem. But you're letting a secondary issue confuse things. There's a good reason GUIs took over: it's a lot easier to train computer newbies with standardized "point-and-grunt" user interfaces than to make them learn complicated command syntaxes and file system conventions. These things seem "simpler" to people who learned to use computers early
Re:The Key to the Keys (Score:3, Interesting)
it's a lot easier to train computer newbies with standardized "point-and-grunt" user interfaces than to make them learn complicated command syntaxes and file system conventions.
I fear for the survival of our race if those sort of things qualify as being "complicated."
These things seem "simpler" to people who learned to use computers early on. But by any objective standard, they just aren't.
I'd like to hear about these object standards of yours, because I object wholly to your statement. It depends,
Re:The Key to the Keys (Score:2)
Re:The Key to the Keys (Score:2)
That is ad hominem.
Re:The Key to the Keys (Score:2)
Re:The Key to the Keys (Score:2)
Wrong. "Ad hominem" would be if I said, "You're a Freemason, and Freemasons never know what they're talking about."
Saying I'm wrong because of that example is denying the antecedent ("If your statement were this, it would be ad hominem. It is not this, therefore it is not ad hominem."). You're not telling me that your argument is not ad hominem, but instead you're telling me that different one is.
I provided a valid argument and gave examples to support it. You did not address any of my points, but s
Re:The Key to the Keys (Score:2)
The age old debate between GUIs and CLIs (Score:5, Insightful)
Ah, the age old debate between GUIs and CLIs.
This isn't anything new. People have been discussing this for a long time. It's pretty well known that GUIs are better for some tasks and CLIs are better for others. Rather than trying to proclaim that one is dead, people really should work on making them work better together.
Anyhow. Until people start making more advances in that arena, in the meantime, I've found that using a keyboard with an integrated TrackPoint works great. (You can find old IBM ones on eBay or get some from pckeyboards.com.) Any modern OS supports multiple input pointing devices, so if you need to do a lot of mousing but only a little bit of typing, you still can have a normal mouse available to you. If, however, you need to do a lot of typing but only a little bit of mousing, you can keep your fingers at your keyboard the whole time. It's the best of both worlds, and I think all keyboards should come like this.
Re:The age old debate between GUIs and CLIs NOT (Score:2)
I deal with this problem big time. Our organization replaced a DOS based Pension Fund accounting program with a Progress based Windows-looking GUI program. And it sucks enormously in usability. eg [and i found this stuff withion an hour of turning it on.
No alt+letter combos to access menus. well no identified ones. sometimes if you guess right one wi
AutoHotKey and AutoIt are a complete solution. (Score:3, Informative)
Use AutoHotkey [autohotkey.com] to make keyboard shortcuts to run programs and enter text.
Use AutoIt to simulate keyboard entries and mouse clicks and when you need complicated decision-making. Download AutoIt with the SciTE auto-completion IDE [autoitscript.com]. The SciTE editor makes writing and testing AutoIt programs and compiling the finished results very easy.
Both these programs are very sophisticated, the best available, and FREE. AutoHotKey comes with source code. Both are programmable.
For example, I've written an AutoHotKey program that uses a shortcut to toggle between Windows shortcut keys and WordStar/Brief control-key editing commands. I like to avoid taking the time to touch the mouse.
AutoIt is great for automating installations of software.
Both allow programming your own GUIs.
Don't forget to contribute to these efforts.
Let's see. (Score:2)
RSI (Score:2)
Re: keystrokes (Score:1)
No. What we've left behind is the concept that specialized keystrokes are somehow only available in contrast to a kickass GUI. Designing a better GUI and maintaining its layout through multiple versions makes sure it's easier to train more people on an application. If you're only expecting or need 20 people to use an app, by all means - make them learn specialized keystrokes.
Oddly - I want the opposite. (Score:1)
This may sound really out there, but I do not know. What I want is a CLI based GUI. I have searced the ncurses area and found nothing. I would really like a CLI interface that ran a GUI. Imagine one that is run by hitting a key combo to resize a window, move it around and/or close it. Multiple windows, a "toolbar", to 'key-click' on and (%*dream*%) interpreted X11 on the fly - run an X11 session with full GUI through a ssh connection - W/O running X11 locally. Upshot if this makes no sense - I would love to
Re:Oddly - I want the opposite. (Score:2)
Re:Oddly - I want the opposite. (Score:2)
There are several threads about `screens`, a text based "window manager". Other interesting concepts were Ion and Rat Poison, Pane Managers vs. Window Managers.
My main programs are still CLI... (Score:3, Interesting)
When it comes to GUI apps, however, I mainly use Firefox, Thunderbird, Akregator, and amaroK. The two KDE applications are customisable with shortcut keys the same way all KDE applications usually are, and I know a bunch of the useful shortcuts with Firefox. Not only that, but mouse gestures are an absolute must in a GUI [web] browser, and AiO Gestures does that great.
The catch? I was born in the 80's; I didn't grow up with Unix (I started with Windows 3.1). Even with that, I still have found CLI programs to be a godsend.
Eye Contact vs GUI (Score:2, Interesting)
I did some consulting for a hotel chain, and I ended up talking to the front desk staff one night about their new very mouse-based GUI'ish reservation program. I had noticed that they spent a lot of time staring down at the screen and mousing, whereas at other hotels, the counter person would talk to the customer and make eye contact while only needing to briefly look at the
Re:Eye Contact vs GUI (Score:2)
Use both at the same time. (Score:1, Funny)
The Rootless Root (Score:5, Funny)
One evening, Master Foo and Nubi attended a gathering of programmers who had met to learn from each other. One of the programmers asked Nubi to what school he and his master belonged. Upon being told they were followers of the Great Way of Unix, the programmer grew scornful.
"The command-line tools of Unix are crude and backward," he scoffed. "Modern, properly designed operating systems do everything through a graphical user interface."
Master Foo said nothing, but pointed at the moon. A nearby dog began to bark at the master's hand.
"I don't understand you!" said the programmer.
Master Foo remained silent, and pointed at an image of the Buddha. Then he pointed at a window.
"What are you trying to tell me?" asked the programmer.
Master Foo pointed at the programmer's head. Then he pointed at a rock.
"Why can't you make yourself clear?" demanded the programmer.
Master Foo frowned thoughtfully, tapped the programmer twice on the nose, and dropped him in a nearby trashcan.
As the programmer was attempting to extricate himself from the garbage, the dog wandered over and piddled on him.
At that moment, the programmer achieved enlightenment.
Courtesy of the Rootless Root [catb.org]
Re:The Rootless Root (Score:3, Funny)
Master Baz said nothing, but typed a few commands into his terminal and turned up his speakers.
"What do you want me to type?" yelped an elderly woman.
"C as in carl, D as in david, then a space bar, then the slash key on the same key as the question mark."
"What?"
"C as in carl, D as in david, then a space bar, then the slash key on the same key as the question mark."
"Okay
Short answer: Probably (Score:2)
Re:Short answer: Probably (Score:1)
For some programs, such as Visio and Photoshop, not using a mouse or some other pointing device is pretty pointless. But I can't think of *any* administrative system that should require a mouse.
What is truly sad is that just when MS started to get a hang of this
Workstation configuration (Score:2, Interesting)
-Pascal
No single answer for anything (Score:2)
1. How many shortcuts would need to be remembered to work efficiently.
2. How long will an average user stay at this job before moving on.
3. How smart is the typical user.
4. Should the interface be localized/internationalized?
5. How much will an average user use the interface in an average week?
6. Can every feature in the interface have a reasonable keyboard shortcut?
There's probably a lot more.
GUI presents more information (Score:1)
Re:GUI presents more information (Score:2)
Sound? And why not? Lets try it: "sox input.au pitch 10"
Photoediting? And why not? Lets try it: "pnmhisteq photo.pnm"
Designing presentations? And why not? Lets try it: "include header; bullet list; item 1; item 2; item 3; end bullet list; wait 5 seconds; comb transition" (made up the syntax -- I use troff with pic, and output to pdf).
Spreadsh
Re:GUI presents more information (Score:2)
Secondly, the Sony example is very real. The camera software puts the images 6 or so levels deep into the file system. Not easy to find. It does NOT include software for red-eye reduction; not even image scaling -- as far as I can tell (this may be buried, but is certainly not 2 clicks away).
Now I do *not* use Photoshop. I am *not* a professio
Re:GUI presents more information (Score:2)
My MAIN point was that some of the given tasks were not IMPOSSIBLE with a CLI; which the original post had insisted was the case. Indeed (the second point), some of these tasks are EASIER with a CLI. And, with COTS GUI stuff (Common-Off-The-Shelf), the features needed may not even be implemented.
Ratboy.
Expert vs Occasional users (Score:2)
I used to consult for Sabre; they've got an airline res
Re:Expert vs Occasional users (Score:2)
A lot of the young-uns around here would do well to look back at the CLI vs GUI debate that took place around the introduction of the Mac.
Both! (Score:2)
Of course we have (Score:2)
I don't know what else to say other than "Duh"
Isn't there some way you can incorporate short-cut keys into a web page to reintroduce the labor saving options? I know TAB works most of the time, but I suspect a lot of DHTML pages have paid no attention to the path your cursor takes when you TAB, but then textmessage fields are problematic.
Using the mouse is a pain. I contributes significantly to CTS in every work environment I've been in
Re:Of course we have (Score:1)
A mouse is for... (Score:2)
-- Anonymous internet post I happen to have seen today but cannot now find fot the life of me.
I happen to agree with this... but then again I use vi/bash/totalcmd under windows.
With the exception of Games... of course.
Biggest failing of upgrading legacy apps (Score:1)
The biggest mistake being made is to force those users to require using a mouse instead of preserving the quick key input from the previous software.
In many cases, a mouse just doesn't make sense to use. Often the area these terminals were original installed lack the space to place a mouse effectively, forcing employees to adopt com
In the beginning there was the command line... (Score:2)
The AskSlashdot question leads me to believe that the users are doing a lot of data entry. I have experienced similar feedback when migrating users from one system to a newer system with 'bling'.
The thing one has to look at is not the time to do one thing but one task. It is a big difference.
One simple rule. (Score:1)
Text based != DOS based (Score:2)
Okay, maybe I'm being pedantic - I just have this thing about everything non-gui being called DOS.
It's all about skills and learning the tools (Score:2)
But you've answered your own question:
The people in the department that don't take time to learn the tools at as deep a level as you have, aren't as productive.
The computer's just a tool. Figuring out how to do your work more efficiently is a personal challenge we all face.
Really astute folks in your department that see you going faster than they can who also have a personal interest in bettering themselves will
Re:Direct neural interface (Score:2)
On a more serious note, what makes you think that a direct neural link will require less effort and less training than a GUI/CLI with a keyboard/mouse? I'd wager that the required training would have many parallels with physiotherapy...