Is There Too Much Enthusiasm Over Wireless? 284
lukOh asks: "in the US, 802.11b/g (2.4Ghz) devices use an
83Mhz-wide frequency range; in-use channels spanning 22Mhz and centered on one of 11 5Mhz steps (badly named as "channels"). This means there should be no more that 3 networks in close proximity, 5 'channels' far from each other, to avoid harmful interference. Now, in the middle of the mixed area where I am, the number of usable WLANs (SNR>20dBm) has gone from 10 to an unworkable number of 20, in just one month. Has the community/the market overestimated the practicality of wireless networks? Are we generally relying too much on such a young, IMHO immature technology made on 'startups hope' and broken firmwares? How can this mess possibly be handled in a working environment, especially the moment your boss asks you to give him access to 'the wireless'?"
"Access points can be easily detected, but the same isn't always true for every single client (or Bluetooth device) searching or using a network. Bluetooth itself employs the same 2.4Ghz range with 1Mhz-wide channels and much less power. To avoid interference a device jumps channel-to-channel, when the currently selected one is busy.
Most WLANs are managed by less-than-perfect SOHO access points. Connecting to an AP in such an environment is a gamble (even from 1ft away), especially when: WPA/WPA2 must be used; 802.11g stability is a dream; anywhere up to 7 networks are on the same 'channel' (1 and 11, being the most used, are standard on many devices); and now 'channel wars' are very common (i.e. 2 or more users concurrently hunting to set a free channel for their network, making the entire range unusable for hours)."
Set your boss up with 802.11a (Score:5, Funny)
Your boss (Score:3, Funny)
But his Etch-A-Sketch is already wireless?
If they actually have a computer, simply connect his computer to the wireless router via CAT-5.
wireless is way of the future (Score:2, Funny)
Re:wireless is way of the future (Score:2)
And wired all the others?
Re:wireless is way of the future (Score:4, Funny)
Dagnabbit!
Yessiree, when that paperless world finally happens, man, it will be wireless. I tell you, it will be wireless and we will all be on the beach...
Will the last person to press prt scr please toss out the printer.
Re:wireless is way of the future (Score:2, Interesting)
The amazing thing about wireless is that people don't turn the power down on their WAPs. This would
A. Reduce people from seeing/wardriving/logging onto your wireless connection. ie. better security
B. Reduce interference with other WAP.
Certainly it isn't easy to determine a level- but the wireless guys should include software with the setup wizard that help to do this. Put your laptop in the furthest place from the WAP- set it- and it should adjust it down.
Right now- everyo
Deregulation (Score:5, Insightful)
We're relying too much on an unregulated spectrum.
Re:Deregulation (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to rely on regulated spectrum, hook into your cell phone and start paying.
Re:Deregulation (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Deregulation (Score:3, Interesting)
It's like Capitolism Vs. Communism (Score:2, Interesting)
Site Survey (Score:5, Informative)
802.11a has a much better frequency spacing (8 non-overlapping channels in most juridstiction, 4 in the others), but many countries won't let you use it outside. The penetrating power at 5GHz is also less than at 2.4GHz.
Has wireless been overhyped? Hell yeah, but all we are seeing is the same problem that we all had when everybody went out and bought a 900Mhz cordless phone.
We need to either compress the channel bandwidth (OFDM with few channels around the center frequency), which would give less bandwidth per channel, extend the number of non-overlapping channels available. Jacking up the frequency would give better overall throughput and less channel conflict at the cost of range.
Re:Site Survey (Score:5, Insightful)
Part of me hates the idea of Regional WISPs for this reason, they'll come in and wreck everyone's private networks. But part of me will also realize that the people who don't need to host their own WAP, won't, and that'll make the whole area a more network friendly area.
Once some of the hype dies down, networks will get better, but for now, just grit your teeth and talk to your neighbor. God forbid you get some free internet access out of it, or pay a nominal fee to help with his bandwidth bill.
Re:Site Survey (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Site Survey (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Site Survey (Score:2, Troll)
Re:Site Survey (Score:2)
The only way we figured this out was to
Re:3 channels only, please (Score:5, Funny)
Besides, nobody may understand what the hell you're talking about, but some will pretend they do, just to score some karma. Hell, you might even get a response that reads like it was lifted directly from a rejected fanfic script for ST:TNG!
Geordi: True, a 1-6-11 spread will maximize the spectrum with minimum nodular-crossinterference, but a triple-stepped 4 channel spread will remodularize the wifi matrix-
Riker (adjusting uniform): which would maximize headerless throughput and give us another 10 Teracycles on the core processes!
Picard: Make it so.
Troi: I'm feeling a sense of accomplishment here.
Chewbacca: Arrrr!
solution vs. problem? (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes, its useful to avoid snaking a cable from your desk to your bed in your dorm room, but is it a necessity?
Or have consumers bought into the "I need my data everywhere" ideal promised by the wireless people (Centrino! Get it, you'll be a hipster Blue Man Group Guy) and the constant bombardment of high speed wireless access ads from the phone company (Verizon)?
Back in my day, we had vt100 and 9600 baud, and we ran long serial cables or keyboard extension cables if you needed to be able to compute while wandering around your dorm room or a lab. How much real progress has been made with the WWW and 802.11 ?
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:5, Insightful)
Back in my day, we had vt100 and 9600 baud, and we ran long serial cables or keyboard extension cables if you needed to be able to compute while wandering around your dorm room or a lab. How much real progress has been made with the WWW and 802.11 ?
The difference is, I don't think my wife wants to have a giant cable following her around that she can trip over, while she is reading up on her Soap Opera Digest while watching TV in the living room.
The difference is, the Internet is not just for geeks anymore. It is for everyone. And "everyone" does not want cables all over the place, they want a nice, clean, liveable space, and wireless gives them that. They don't really give a flying rats ass if they only get 2.5 Mbps instead of 7Mbps, because they don't know any better, and they have no logical reason to anyways.
battery powered? (Score:2, Interesting)
It's not the wires that are a problem, it's the builders philosphy of where to put outlets and what to have "outletted".
The solution is just modern home design with some better plug-age in the normal areas. The problem is, it is only in the last
Re:battery powered? (Score:3, Insightful)
also ethernet is more awkward than mains to split which can be a pain unless you wan't a switch in every room or many seperate drops to every room from a huge central switch. With mains outlets you just wire em all in paralell.
and then there is semi-permanent stuff, suppose a room has a couple of mains sockets and you wan't more but can't afford to have p
Re:battery powered? (Score:2)
Re:battery powered? (Score:2)
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:2, Funny)
Can you ping me now? Good!
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:2)
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:3, Funny)
Usenet, Gopher, and Ma Bell?
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:2)
-Graham
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:4, Informative)
Usenet, gopher and talk/ntalk??:-)
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:2)
*.forsale, WAIS, and this thing we called "the telephone."
--Pat
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:2)
Me, I got a wireless router at home and use wireless wherever I can simply for physical and electrical safety - I do not have to worry about a freak power incident zapping my laptop through the LAN port when I am connected wirelessly. I also do not have to worry about network cables being tripped over and ripping the Ethernet jack off my laptop's PCB.
I go wired only for large data transfers... preferably over FireWire for large transfer
Re:solution vs. problem? (Score:2)
Wireless isn't making me happy these days (Score:5, Insightful)
And the wireless printer there suddenly decided forget how to get an IP address from the wireless router.
It's not a happy time in Wirelessville.
Re:Wireless isn't making me happy these days (Score:2)
card, driver and wpa_supplicant setup to work right.
Re:Wireless isn't making me happy these days (Score:2)
True. but that doesn't make me use Windows. I have my principles.
does everything use batteries? (Score:3, Insightful)
First come first serve (Score:2, Troll)
Under this scheme, there can be three service providers in an area, and they have to cooperate to avoid interference. The fourth provider is SOL and is on a short train to bankruptcy.
Here is the beauty of wi-fi through; it
Re:First come first serve (Score:5, Insightful)
WiFi works on unlicensed spectrum, companies cannot claim it as their own... that spectrum is for all to use however they please within the limits set by the relevant agencies. Trying to bury the new guy by boosting your transmitter's output would most likely violate the peak radiation limit and get your transmitter shut down if not brought back within compliance.
What would be really useful is moving WiFi towards true spread-spectrum modulation to reduce performance degradation from multiple full and partial overlaps. The main issues with this would be extra complexity, longer channel scanning/sync times and yet more bandwidth (but at a lower mW/MHz density) per useful channel.
Re:First come first serve (Score:2, Insightful)
To Quote:
15.5 General conditions of operation.
(a) Persons operating intentional or unintentional radiators shall not be deemed to have any vested or recognizable right to continued use of any given frequency by virtue of prior registration or certification of equipment, or, for power line carrier systems, on the basis of prior notification of use pursuant to 90.63(g) of this chapter.
(b) Operation of an intent
It is about using the right tool (Score:5, Insightful)
I work for a college and once or twice a year someone brings forward the idea of a mobile cart of laptops for a roaming classroom. All laptops using wireless networking.
It sounds great until you find out they want to 30 students doing graphics or medical imaging at the same time. Of course we mention that it may not perform up to their expectations and that they should do some testing. They never follow through with the testing.
I'll say it again. Wireless is a tool and can be great when applied appropriately.
Re:It is about using the right tool (Score:2)
We recently issued 60 wireless tablets thanks to a grant from HP and were able to get them all to work fine. We did get a couple of additional access points in the room where the tablets would primarily be used, but we had the foresight to get t
One Solution (Score:4, Interesting)
I know, its not exactly ethical, it is legally dubious, etc.
But, since most people rarely change the default admin password, you can't argue with the results from switching people off your channel, or reducing the broadcast power of their WAP.
Mostly though, the issue is that WAPs aren't 'intelligent.' They aren't spread-spectrum, they can't automaticall channel hop because they can't predict how good/bad your reception will be... There's a whole host of technical challenges to making them play nicely together.
Here's a super nerdy pdf [cirond.com] with equations, pics representing signal intensity/overlap. If it doesn't answer your questions in a highly technical matter, I don't know what will.
Re:One Solution (Score:2)
Regulation inevitable (Score:5, Interesting)
Bullshit. Pardon my french... (Score:2)
Wireless works because there is NO regulation. I've been a ham radio operator for 15 years. It doesn't get any more regulated than that. Know where that hobby is?
Cellular is regulated. How much per kB, that's 1024 bytes, to tranfer IP packets?
Regulation would spell instant death for wireless. We don't NEED regulation in those bands. That's the WHOLE POINT OF THE 2.4GHZ BAND!
Enough already. I don't want to pay a liscence fee to the government to use my wireless hub.
Yes there is (Score:2, Informative)
So the hotspot were my savior. Now when I work in my office, I don't need to mess with cable anymore(beside AC or mouse). I would never get back to the "old" way now.
One day the wireless turned out not to work very well. We didn't understand it at first. Cause it was wo
The Tragedy of the Commons (Score:5, Insightful)
Others have described this as "The Tragedy of the Commons." [econlib.org] Have a stretch of pasture where anyone can graze their cattle for free, and it'll soon be overgrazed. Have a stretch of the spectrum that anyone can freely use, and it'll become overused, so much so that no one gets any benefit.
I saw that in a town I visited where the water was unmetered. A local told me that at first it seemed a good idea. Water was so cheap and abundant, why go to the cost of metering and billing by usage? But unmetered led to waste and waste led to a search for new sources that turned out to be expensive. The result was that everyone, whether they wasted or not, had to paid sky-high water bills.
I hate to sound like a scold, but we need to make like good little hobbits and not trash our Technological Shire. We are going to have to discipline ourselves not to waste what's free. If wired can do the job with a trifling more effort (and probably less cost), we need use wire. Reserve wireless where it's necessary or particularly handy.
--Mike Perry, Untangling Tolkien
Re:The Tragedy of the Commons (Score:3, Informative)
and they are generally a good thing because they allow normal people to use some radio based equipment without huge licensing hassles.
if your favorite unlicensed band becomes too crowded you have a few options
1: move to another unlicensed band thats less crowded(e.g. move to 802.11a)
2: buy licensed bandwidth (expensive
Re:The Tragedy of the Commons (Score:2)
Re:The Tragedy of the Commons (Score:2)
Much of the Middle East was once some of the most fertile land on the planet. It's very likely that overfarming is what turned much of it to desert.
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Er, no. (Score:2)
What makes it more problematical is that for understandable reasons the cable and dsl companies hand out wireless routers on purpose.
Re:Er, no. (Score:2)
Re:Er, no. (Score:2)
Agreed. Wardriving around my neighborhood, I found a surprising large number of instances where two or even three neighbors had APs on the same channel. Obviously it doesn't bother them enough for anyone to change channels.
Actually, while 1, 6, and 11 are the "primary" channels, you can often sqeeze in two more at 3|4 and at 9 with only a slight degredation in performance. Most of the bandwidth is concentrated in the m
Pointless in a home environment (Score:5, Insightful)
Using your laptop on the couch or on the deck has great novelty value, but is useless from a work or ergonomic perspective. Throw in interference, inevitable drop outs, and the fact that real world performance is no where near the '54Mbs' marked on the box and it all adds up to an unappealing package in the home.
Re:Pointless in a home environment (Score:2)
Sometimes I do work in my study, even then I don't bother to plug in the ethernet other than to play a movie while I treadmill. Why bother? Wireless works fine, going on 4 years now.
Re:Pointless in a home environment (Score:2)
wouldn't have to be as much of a problem if... (Score:2, Insightful)
- ISPs putting ridiculously low monthly bandwidth limits on users - like mine, 10Gb/month down... If I download one Mandriva install DVD, that just about uses it up! Add in that Finnish Star Trek spoof, and I'll probably be getting a phone call saying I'm downloading too much.
- ease of setting up a network where your LAN is private, but the wireless router will allow other LANs to be set up... then people c
Channel clutter (Score:3, Insightful)
I believe WAP manufacturers (the big three especially) have a responsibility to at least default each unit to a random channel (1, 6, or 11). Even better, have the WAP scan for and use the least cluttered channel on power-up.
Re:Channel clutter (Score:3, Funny)
Wake me when it Just Works. (Score:2)
Re:Wake me when it Just Works. (Score:2)
I've had the exact opposite experience with Apple's implementations of wifi, even the early ones running on OS 9: It has always JUST WORKED. On OS X it's even easier.
I have had similar bad expeirences with windows systems... man, what awful software. WHY do people put up with such crap?
Some history... (Score:2)
Note that the reason the band is supposedly 11 channels (14 are defined, and the number of channels you can use in various countries are restricted, etc etc) dates back to the original 802.11 standard, which had a maximum throughput of 2 Mbps, and a much smaller channel width. With a much smaller channel width, these channels really were non-overlapping. But as
Re:Some history... (Score:2, Informative)
Wireless is incredibly useful (Score:2)
1) In homes where people own a laptop
2) In homes/businesses where running cat from one end of the building to the other would be cost prohibitive or a plain old pain in the butt.
3) Any form of mobile technology(gaming units, phones, m
Licensed spectrum - WiMAX? (Score:3, Interesting)
better late than never (wireless fanboys) (Score:3, Funny)
Slashdot has been filled to the top with slobbering wireless fanboys for years and years. This is the very first article I've seen where the poster isn't gushing all over the ISM band and how they'll put a brazillian bits/second through it from over the horizon.
I did see quite a few theoretical posts - ie there are three channels, a good engineer will use three 120 degree sectors. That is better, but they go on to say the next ISP that comes along is SOL. Not the case - they just elbow there way in, and people keep loving up the ISM band until it turns into packet bukkake - 100% utilization, 0% throughput.
Anyone who seriously wants to deploy that stuff should go google for "n9zia wireless" and read the Green Bay packet crazies ideas, which is where I learned half of what I know. The other half came from hard experience.
There will, of course, be two dozen fanboys all set to reply to this. You need to ask yourself the following questions:
Ever climb a tower?
Ever made a 21.7 mile shot using 802.11b?
Ever operated a wireless ISP in a metro area?
Ever been invited to speak at WispCon?
If you're not qualified, please shoot your mouth off on some other topic. Really. This article is a step in the right direction for Slashdot - away from wireless delusions of grandeur and towards a bit of realism.
Amazing... (Score:2)
It's not often that one witnesses such pretentious flamebait from such a low UID. Congradulations, sir. Here's your asshat.
On a more serious note: One does not need to be a wireless engineer to offer an opinion, particularly within such a community as this. You've obviously been here longer t
Re:Amazing... (Score:2)
I spent a couple of years being an example
The local WISP business is just pure poison. I've seen lawsuits, computer and network intrusion, jamming, breaking and entering, barratry, criminal charges for theft by deception, a number of other instances where people should have been charged with theft by deception, strategic placement of high powered amateur equipment allowed in the 2
Immature Technology?? Are you kidding??? (Score:5, Insightful)
hard wired, baby (Score:2)
Not to mention phones. Cordless phones rely on two sources to work and of course they tend to die.
What really needs to be invented is u
Sounds like... (Score:2)
community networks (Score:5, Insightful)
The lack of organization is really inefficient. I'm surprised there aren't more organized free community networks nowadays; I really thought that was going to happen more, and that the big corporate empires wouldn't be as efficient about covering large areas with hotspots and then charging big fees to use them. A lot of hams have some sense of duty to use their skills for community service, but a lot of wifi hackers don't, apparently.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:community networks (Score:3, Insightful)
People don't want to share their bandwidth with others in the first place ("buy your own") and don't want to be blamed for what others do with it if it were shared.
I don't mind sharing my bandwidth with my neighbors, but I'm shaping that traffic so I get priority of course.
Wireless no good (Score:2)
Wireless has so much more potential (Score:2)
There's not enough enthusiasm for wireless!
Wireless could allow consumers to free themselves from the regional telecom monopolies' grasp and transform internet access from a monthly pay-service into a single expense commodity market. That's a tremendous gain for consumers as commodity markets are much more competitive and offer far better flexibility of choice. It will be a wonderful day when wireless allows us to abandon the Bells and the Alltels that are blocki
Re:Wireless has so much more potential (Score:3, Insightful)
Unfortunately you mistake what you're paying for. That $45/month isn't for the local link, it's mostly for the transport between your ISP and the rest of the Internet. Your scenario B has you paying $45/year for access to... well, nothing really. Only those computers associated with the same wireless access point as you. Basically exactly what you'd have if you set up an 802.11b access point of your own that wasn't plugged into a LAN. Now you have to go about getting your access points connected up to the r
Re:Wireless has so much more potential (Score:2)
I outlined the ideal schenario...a very possible future that would benefit all of us vastly
Of course you'll need connections between the lily pads, and of course that's not free. But if you have enough computing power and enough harddisk capacity there is potential for mirroring and other techniques that would still allow us to 'keep our internet' without having to pay an arm and a leg to regional telecom monopolies. 0.0001% of our income tax could f
Re:Wireless has so much more potential (Score:2)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2, Interesting)
I always figured it'd be batteries that would be the solution.
Really good, long lasting, no special treatment needed, juice boxes.
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
How about some sort of solution through the floor?
Same power, no dome!
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Batteries, I'd assume, be able to power the laptop long enough for you to scald your bits.
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Good ergonomics . . .
Re:The bottom line (Score:3, Funny)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2, Funny)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2, Insightful)
Wireless power is available today. The problem is capturing it and converting it. This is something that plants have gotten very good at over the past several hundred million years.
Re:The bottom line (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
I believe the poster's point is that the current technology becomes impossible to use as a natural consequence of it being used. It's a specific point dealing with a problem with current versions, not a general one.
No idea if he's right, but I've noticed the problem he is referring to. It exists as a practical issue.
--
Evan
Wireless is a pain (Score:2)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Oh, wait. That's an oxymoron.
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Re:The bottom line (Score:2)
Re:Expect WLAN white noise projectors (Score:2)
Re:Short answer: yes. Long answer: yes. (Score:2, Insightful)
I have a laptop. 75% of the time, it sits on the desk, right next to the router. But it's that other 25% of the time that made my $30 wireless router worth it. Being able to yank the power plug and usb hub, and pull the laptop onto the couch while watching tv. Or reading slashdot, deciding I want to take a dump, and hauling the computer onto the pot. Or when the wife has company over, so I want to go take the computer and hide in the other room.
Why
Re:wireless is doomed (Score:2)
If wireless was going to die because of inherent insecurity, incapability, and complexity, then Windows would have died out because of its insecurity, incapability, and complexity in the face of Unix.
By the way, wireless IS simple. No wires is more simple than one wire. Period. When I bring my Powerbook home and set it on my desk, I just open it, it automatically connects to my access point, and I'm online in about five seconds. ISPs these days