Is the Dell/Microsoft Alliance Fracturing? 390
An anonymous reader asks: "Dell has historically been the most loyal of all Microsoft's partners. Even today, it is very difficult to avoid paying the Microsoft tax on most of Dell's desktops and notebooks. Recently, two things have made the news where Dell is not toeing the Microsoft line. First, was the announcement that Dell is trialling shipping desktop and notebook PCs in the UK with Firefox as the default browser, instead of IE (announcement confirmed here). Today we have news that Dell is not going to support HD-DVD, despite reported incentives that recently induced HP to do so. So, what are some theories as to why Dell has lately been less of a friend to Microsoft, and what does this mean for the future? Does it mean that it might soon become possible to order Dell's full line of personal systems with Linux installed, or no OS/FreeDOS to save the Microsoft tax?"
Microsoft Tax (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Microsoft Tax (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Microsoft Tax (Score:3, Funny)
Let's see:
1. Locate, print, and carefully read the license agreement associated with said software product. 0.5-4 hours.
2. Research and understand the Small Claims system in your jurisdiction. 8 hours (due diligence).
3. File the necessary paperwork. 4 hours.
4. Subpeona fee $10.
5. Building case file (repeated telephone calls with manufacturer, letter writing, documentation of each of these exhibits). 6 hours.
6. Traveling to and from courthouse. 0.5-2 hours.
7
Microsoft tax is probably negative. (Score:5, Interesting)
This amounted to a pretty big subsidy for the Windows versions of computers; and if you add up all the software companies doing this game, I bet it vastly exceeds the cost of windows.
Until the crippleware subsidy industry gets as big for Linux, I expect you'll always see the OEMs prefer Windows.
Re:Microsoft tax is probably negative. (Score:4, Informative)
However, as your purchase volume goes up the cost of the business machines becomes less than that of consumer because high volume purchasers use less support (per machine) than low volume. In a corporate environment there is likely to be a help desk that fixes most of the problems that would otherwise hit support.
Re:Microsoft Tax (Score:2)
Would that still be true if Dell started edging away from Microsoft?? Dell could lose (or have to "renegotiate") their volume discount. Which would be stupid if Microsoft did it, because they'd drive Dell further away, but they might just do it to slow down any other manufacturers that looked antsy.
Re:Microsoft^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^h^hApple Tax (Score:3, Insightful)
If you call Apple, you can get a system WITHOUT the OS and get it cheaper. I've done it for graphic houses installations.
And if you are a Mac user, you know damn well that the so-called 'shovelware' is iLife that you're talking about is included FREE for new systems. All software on a Mac can be easily removed by dragging the application to the trash.
They're no different... (Score:4, Insightful)
Nothing to see here.
Re:They're no different... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:They're no different... (Score:2)
I thought IE was a Microsoft product.
Re:They're no different... (Score:3, Informative)
Re:They're no different... (Score:4, Insightful)
Maybe since they are. But calling them "idiots" is too harsh.
Reality is you don't need to be electronics expert to operate your TV, so your TV shouldn't require so. Many smart people just don't know/need all those details.
But regarding user friendliness, I'd say distributions like Ubuntu are friendly enough for basic tasks like Office / EMail / Internet work. But Windows is just a much better desktop OS, we all gotta give it that I guess.
Re:They're no different... (Score:2)
Re:They're no different... (Score:3, Interesting)
Your right. Sorry about that.
User-friendlyness not only depends on the interface but also how fool-proof is the software. It is a difficult ballance between keeping people who don't know what their doing away, while allowing those who do to work. In some ways, I think Microsoft has managed to do this (at least they provide a link allowing users to look at the files), but I think that there is still more to be desired. My own personal suggestion would be to make a u
Re:They're no different... (Score:2, Interesting)
you need a license to drive you car, don't you? not servicing it, just driving it. your computer is a lot more complicated, and potentially a lot more dangerous than a car. why is it that surprising that you should at LEAST have a basic knowledge of wtf it is you're doing?
people usually reply with "but i don't have a choice! everything is on the computer!". yes you do have a choice, you CAN type your papers on a typewritter, you CAN get the n
Re:They're no different... (Score:5, Insightful)
And the worst my mom can do with her computer is install spyware by accident, lose her e-mail archive and *.DOC with recipes she collects.
So paint me skeptical about your conclusions there. It's easy to be so demanding if you're well versed in computing, but things look in a different way if you're just not that well informed, or can't learn well enough (like elderly users).
Re:They're no different... (Score:2)
Which is annoying but not dangerous, unless the server admins have problems with their blood pressure (but if they do, they shouldn't be admins).
Re:They're no different... (Score:2, Interesting)
I felt I had accomplished something
Re:They're no different... (Score:3, Insightful)
Computers aren't THAT bloody complicated unless you're digging under the hood or something has broken. Plenty OF people out there happilly use THEIR computers for years without understanding anything MORE that how they launch Microsoft word AND THE interweb. If they run in to problems they call tech support.
If you've got A central heating system at home, do you think you should be expected TO be a central heating EXPERT?
Re:They're no different... (Score:2)
True, I can't think of any other widely available tool that is as flexible. I think though that the majo
Re:They're no different... (Score:2)
Re:They're no different... (Score:4, Informative)
All they'd do is use their desktop, be that gnome or kde, and manage the files they see as *icons* with their *mouse*. IF they delete something accidentaly, that obviously cann't be anything vital to the system, since linux won't let you do stupid things like this, while you're logged in as a user.
On the other hand, in windowsland, how many times have you seen a clueless user deleting vital system files? Exactly! TOO many times. ("what's this msblabla2131.dll? hmmm must be a virus, lets delete it.")
Re:They're no different... (Score:3, Funny)
Sure (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, it might soon be possible.
Re:Sure (Score:3, Informative)
Dell offers the n-Series of Desktop computers, without any MS software. It comes with FreeDOS.
Free translation from Dell homepage (originaly in Portuguese):
"The n-Series systems are some of the desktop and workstations selected from the Dell Dimention(TM), Dell OptiPlex(TM) and Dell Precision(TM) series sold without an operation system.
Avaliable for IT professionals wishing to have control over instalation and development of their systems. A copy of th
Re:Sure (Score:2)
1. build a huge base of loyal customers using MS Windows
2. Drop MS Windows
3. Profit?
Re:Do you really want to? (Score:3, Interesting)
(Based on more than 85,000 desktop computers purchased new between 2001 and 2005, according to responses to our 2005 Annual Questionnaire. Data were standardized to eliminate differences linked to age and use. Differences of 4 or more points are meaningful.)
However, curiously, for *laptops*, Dell ranks 6th, after Sony, IBM, Toshiba,
It's all about... (Score:4, Insightful)
Theories? (Score:5, Insightful)
I think Dell has a smart management team. They realise that they are a market leader in hardware, and the balance of power is shifting.
Microsoft can't afford to upset Dell. It would be unfortunate for MS if the income stream from Dell dried up, and disastrous if Dell boxes started going out with non-MS software routinely given priority.
Dell, on the other hand, increasingly has viable alternatives to offer and probably an increasing number of customers asking about them, particularly on the Windows vs. $OTHER_OS front. And of course, they can more effectively compete against other workstation and particularly server vendors if they aren't paying the Microsoft tax, and they have more legal shielding than ever against reprisals by MS.
Today, Microsoft is getting a very bad name in some areas, particularly among the techies who probably buy 99% of the Dell servers and a heavy majority of the workstations and support contracts. At a time like that, if you'll forgive the horrible cliches, it pays to know which side your bread's buttered, and not to have all your eggs in one basket.
Re:Theories? (Score:2)
Re:Theories? (Score:5, Interesting)
I think this is exactly the reason. What you need to realise is that half of M$ income is comming from the M$ Office package. What would happen to this if Dell would, for example, decide to preinstall OpenOffice.org 2.0 on all the new customer machines as a value add? Why wouldn't they? I think the next five years will see a dramatic changes in the power distribution thanks to this one bargaining chip.
Re:Theories? (Score:2)
Re:Theories? (Score:2)
Re:Theories? (Score:4, Insightful)
In addition, as the SEC filings [nasdaq.com] suggest, the rate of GROWTH for consumer PC's hasn't exactly excited anyone, inside or outside the company. This is reflected in the product shift to Consumer Electronics and Printers sales.
One thing to keep in mind is that Dell is probably MOST reponsive to the demands / needs of its enterprise customer base, at lease in the short to medium term. Especially since they drive a large share of profit growth, and these customers are probably the ones MOST sensitive to avoiding the MS tax. A few dollars per unit add up when you purchase THOUSANDS at a time, right?
*** DISCLAIMER ***
I'm an employee of Dell, though these opinions are my own, and this does not necessarily reflect the thoughts or opionions of my employer, blah, blah, blah
*** DISCLAIMER ***
individual occurrences (Score:5, Informative)
I don't know about a cohesive theory to tie all of it together, but for the HD-DVD thing, I would suspect Dell's not supporting it because it keeps getting delayed [reuters.com], because they can't seem to get their shit together finalizing the AACS "content protection".
HD-DVD vs. Blu-Ray (Score:3, Interesting)
here we are (Score:2)
"The only difference being that Blu Ray is adding another two supplementary security elements: ROM Mark and BD+. ROM Mark is a sort of stamp, invisible to the consumer, which can be embedded using special equipment available only to licensed Blu-Ray disc producers. Obviously, these discs will only be compatible with Blu-Ray equipments." (link [softpedia.com])
With regards
Soon everyone will have A.I.D.s... (Score:3, Interesting)
What are the odds?
Re:Soon everyone will have A.I.D.s... (Score:2)
This is an interesting theory.
Possible, but certainly not probable. With Dell's design language, I just can't see them getting a license from Apple.
I think these moves are just Dell doing their level best to eke more money out of each machine sold in a market where the margins are thin and getting thinner.
Re:Soon everyone will have A.I.D.s... (Score:3, Interesting)
85 to 1.
Now's not yet the time. Apple needs to get their own machines on the market, and get comfortable buildign and selling them before they can repeat the clone situation. They didn't handle direct competition very well last time, so they need to be able to get everything running like a well-oiled machine before they license the OS. I do think it will eventually happen...just not yet.
Dell is, if anything, just going with the market and seeing what happens. As someone el
Extremely unlikely (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Soon everyone will... (Score:2)
Or, as I like to call 'em, "Apple-Intel-Desktop-Systems". A.I.D.S.
Dell fears Apple... (Score:2)
Ding! Da da da daa! "Think different.." and all that.
And Apple isn't merely content with selling computers, they seem to want to be the next Sony - another space Dell has tried to enter (unsuccessfully).
So, yeah, I think they have reason to fear Apple - and who
Re:Jobs already killed off Mac clones before (Score:2, Interesting)
What this told Apple, I assume, is that it wasn't limited hardware choice or a lack of diversity in marketing that was limiting the growth of the Mac's market share. That meant that some other factor was -- maybe the range or quality of applications, the quality of the OS, or one of the other problem areas for Apple.
The correct action was to disallow the clones. They a
Re:Jobs already killed off Mac clones before (Score:2)
It was a little more complicated than that. As a single source vendor, Apple had (and currently has) a very stratified product line up, where certain features are only found at certain price points.
Vendors like PowerComputing took the Dell approach of letting the customer mix-n-match. So a photoshop user could buy the cheapest 2-slot desktop chassis with the fastest CPU at
Shifting power and influence (Score:2, Redundant)
I still think that Dell will do whatever it can to sell the most PCs in volume, so if that means further customization w
Re:Shifting power and influence (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Shifting power and influence (Score:4, Insightful)
Living up to their name I see.
Re:Shifting power and influence (Score:2)
Do you think that Dell plans to switch to Google's PC operating system or Google's microprocessors or Google's motherboards? Otherwise it's hard to see how Google would be relevent in any way to Dell's PC business.
A lot of hoopla over nothing, (Score:5, Insightful)
Call me a cynic, but only on
It's a nice thought, but this is little more than daydreaming.
Re:A lot of hoopla over nothing, (Score:2)
Mods should read the articles (Score:5, Insightful)
First off, this is because Dell is in on the advisory staff that came up with the Blu-ray spec. They have never said "No we are going to sell it", they have only taken the safe road in saying they will stick with their design until the market says otherwise. This probably won't take long since you won't be paying for the patent license at $30 a unit like you will with the Blu-ray product. Not to mention, media will end up costing less for the Microsoft product based upon the same premise.
Yes, Microsoft is trying to get in quick with the incentives, but that is only because they don't have quite the advantage of having Sony on their side. Sony/Dell/and company are going to end up losing out in the long-run for the excessive patent fees. Pair that with Sony being the biggest single contributor to our RIAA pains, and you don't have a great deal of support for the company.
I'm not saying Microsoft is great, just saying they'll be less likely to sue folks for utilizing methods to backup/copy their discs.
What do you buy a burner for? (Score:4, Insightful)
So why do so many people have DVD burners now when CD burners are so cheap? The players cost more, so does the media.
While not quite the same order of magnitude as the difference between DVD and CD storage, Blu-Ray simply offers more storage space than HD-DVD and that makes it much more practical to use as a third-tied backup for things like 400GB drives. That's why I plan to get a Blu-Ray burner soon after they come out. Even if the media and the drives are more expensive, being able to use half the number of discs and half the time (especialy half the time) to do the same backup is a huge draw for computer users.
Now come at it from the media angle. Consumers are not going to buy movies because the PC supports playing that format. When they will do is buy movies when they have a dedicated device, like a DVD player, that will support them. Who is almost guaranteed to have millions on millions of said devices in homes that are not even all early adopters? Sony, with the PS3.
On Microsoft could possibly have the hubris to think they could stop or even slow what is coming, which is a slam-dunk for Sony and Blu-Ray. And they could have done it to if they had delayed the 360 release to include HD-DVD drives in more expensive bundles.
Re:A twist on that theory (Score:2)
Re:Having Sony on your Side... (Score:2)
Re:Having Sony on your Side... (Score:3, Informative)
The killer for the minidisc was that the DRM prevented you from even uploading your own taped music to the computer. Even worse, getting mp3s, ripped CDs onto minidisc was only possible through either recording from line out, or using Sony's awful SonicStage software.
If Sony had laid off the DRM a bit, then the small music player industry might look a lot dif
The Inquirer gets it wrong (Score:4, Informative)
Unless IE has been decoupled with Windows recently without anyone being told, Dell, like everyone else, has no choice in the matter.
Re:The Inquirer gets it wrong (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:The Inquirer gets it wrong (Score:2)
Re:The Inquirer gets it wrong (Score:3, Insightful)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
To OS or not to OS (Score:2, Interesting)
So if Dell has to package an OS with their system, what will it be?
1) Windows: The status quo. Plug it in and it works (albeit no
Re:To OS or not to OS (Score:2)
How so? Would you purchase your machine with a Microsoft OS only to have some
of the proceeds of the sale go to SUSE or Redhat, even though you
had not purchased a product from them, due to the agreements the OEM had
to sign in order to get the lowest pricing from SUSE or Redhat?
Wishful thinking (Score:4, Funny)
Yes. Soon. They will also come with a life supply of candy covered chocolate bunnies that will cure cancer and make you smile!
Firefox is not treason to Microsoft (Score:2)
Bullcrap (Score:2)
IT'S NOT A TAX! It's a discount. (Score:5, Insightful)
But more than that I think it stupid to keep going on about this "Microsoft tax." You can buy a pretty ripping machine from Dell or Gateway or emachines (I mean Gateway) at a very, very good price. These prices are possible because of the huge volume these makers sell, and that volume is possible because everyone knows, no matter how much it may or may not suck, when they get the machine home it will be "familiar" to them and they can go to the gazillion warez and spyware repositories and install whatever crap floats their boat.
Bot more improtantly it's that volume that beckons other OEMs. Third party makers like Adobe and Epson and Norton and others offer Dell and Gateway juicy licensing deals because they know the distribution of their "demos" and their cheapass printers with the ridiculously overpriced ink and paper supplies will benefit them in the long run. So while MS gets paid by Dell, Dell gets paid by Adobe and Epson and Norton. Whether it's money that directly offsets the cost of licensing windows or the cut rate hardware that allows them to make "special deals" that help them blow out thousands of machines at a whack, in the end it's Windows that is driving down the cost of the hardware.
Until there are third party OEMs like Norton and Adobe offering well recognized linux tools that will help sell even more machines, Dell would make LESS on each system by NOT including windows. Twice the support costs (now they have to field both linux and windows calls) but LESS PROFIT. They would have to charge MORE FOR LESS, which is exactly what you see now.
It makes zero sense for Dell to sell bundled linux systems and that isn't going to change until linux has evolved into a "killer brand" in its own right. And that's not going to happen because fo Dell, it's only going to happen because someone, somewhere, develops a desktop that offers something more than windows and does so in a way that is tangible to someone who doesn't spend their life working on this stuff.
Re:IT'S A TAX! (Score:2)
All your arguments about discounts could apply equally to Linux, except more so.
Sure, like any investment it's would be necessary to pay up-front. but a switch could pay for Dell in the long term. And the same applies to anybody in the computer industry besides M$.
Linux is already appearing in low end and specialty boxes. I expect it'll slowly move up the value chain. Particularly for large organisations, where per-seat licensing costs becomes increasingly economically stupid compared to the fixed price
Re:IT'S A TAX! (Score:2)
I just wanted to call bullshit, as people use Linux in extremely high end boxes, too, but I realized that you're right. One doesn't buy these, one builds them. And as such, they're not pre-packaged stuff, and thus not a sale for Dell or the likes.
Re:IT'S A TAX! (Score:2)
Dell is successful because they focus on shipping PCs and not making speculative investments. Look at IBM where they were bragging about the billions invested in Linux, all while taking a huge loss on each PC sold due to overhead.
M$ is currently taxing the world $40,000,000,000+ per year for a dozen programs mostly written more than a decade ago. I think most sensible software consumers would
Re:IT'S A TAX! (Score:3, Insightful)
And why is this? Could it be due to the fact that manufacturers are reluctant to expend vast amounts of time and effort supporting a huge number of incompatible distros whose total number of desktop users put together is dwarfed by people still using Windows-95, who those same manufacturers have also stopped supporting?
"It's what we call a vicious circl
Firefox preinstalled in EU - At MSFT's request... (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Firefox preinstalled in EU - At MSFT's request. (Score:3, Interesting)
Not that I disagree with the rest of your post but Firefox (Mozilla actually) helped drive me away from Windows. Halo effect I guess.
Dell's inhouse OS (Score:5, Funny)
No OS installed (Score:5, Interesting)
as a linux user - why should I give dell money? (Score:2, Interesting)
Dell will do what's right for Dell... (Score:4, Insightful)
Courting Apple? (Score:5, Insightful)
It could be that is the reason for the drift away from MS, either because he wants to make friends with Steve Jobs or a backroom deal has actually already been done.
Re:Courting Apple? (Score:3, Interesting)
The bottom line would be a partnership between Dell and Apple, which if successful may mean that Dell c
Re:ROFL (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:ROFL (Score:2)
Re:ROFL (Score:2)
Huh? (Score:2)
Add to that the fact that most users don't know how to install drivers on windows either, and you have a stale mate.
The real key is that Dell could ship their systems with Synaptic, and the repositories pointed to
Re:Huh? (Score:2)
Re:ROFL (Score:2)
Re:ROFL (Score:3, Informative)
For the family PC, I use Mandriva, which, in version 10.1, has click 'n' go package management with urpmi (I've built it up into a decent gaming platform), is the easiest installer I've ever seen anywhere
Re:ROFL (Score:2)
Re:Misnomer. (Score:3, Funny)
Reality has no precedent around this place, or in much of the OSS community.
Re:Misnomer. (Score:2)
Hey man, I agree with you, but look at the rest of the snippet -- if you believe what you read at Slashdot, Dell is ten minutes away from dumping Microsoft products entirely in favour of linux. So is IBM. And HP. And probably Apple.
Nonsense. That has never been said.
You appear to have been exposed to so much M$ marketing drivel that you're having a hard time coping with alternative points of view.
Reality has no precedent around this place, or in much of the OSS community.
You're the one that's re
Re:Misnomer. (Score:2)
That's right. No reality.
Like Apache is not a reality [netcraft.com], with its 75% market share.
Like PHP's popularity as the #1 web scripting language? [php.net]
Come on, man!
Re:Well... (Score:3, Informative)
Independant of movies, Blu-Ray will succeed (Score:2)
How about because I have multiple 400GB hard drives I would like to be able to back up to optical media in my lifetime?
I currently use extra hard drives for backup, but with just aorund 10 Blu-Ray discs you could have a form of backup easier to ship to multiple offsite backup locations.
Dell wants to include Blu-Ray I think not because they care who wins on the media front, but purley because it offers
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Looking forward as well... (Score:2, Insightful)
So I'll buy a Blu-Ray burner and hope the holographic thing is reality this time and comes in at an affordable price.
I do wonder how long it will be before we see a holographic movie format emerge!
Re:Independant of movies, Blu-Ray will succeed (Score:2)
I'm not following the math. A dual layer DVD-R (ONCE writable) is like 8 USD (compared to single layer which is cents). So, given Blu-Ray discs will be extra expensive, and you'll be waiting for some time to see double lay
Re:Logic (Score:2)
Will they? I for sure won't.
I hope we all realize that those drivers will be EXPENSIVE. Especially the first 2 years.
If Dell starts randomly including new cutting edge tech on the bare assumption their clients might complain, nothing good awaits them.
So in this light, it's smarter for Dell to use what making sense right now in terms of adoption and price/value ratio and wait and see how the Mighty Format Wa
Re:XBox 360 is the reason (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Michael Dell once said... (Score:2)
Ignoring the complete failure of english that sentence was, yes, PCs are fundamentaly different from servers. Servers are generaly bought and run by (in theory) trained professionals who know their software and their hardware, know how to make it work and know how to deal with contingencies and failures. PCs on the otherhand, are not.
Re:Dell is hedging their bets (Score:2)
Re:I thought /. would be up on their $hit.. (Score:2)