Working from Home on a Tropical Island Paradise? 85
CarrotLord asks: "I've recently returned from a holiday in Bali, and I liked it far more than I like London, where I live and work. With the growth of telecommuting and outsourcing, surely it should be possible for a technology worker to relocate to a cheaper, more pleasurable location such as Bali, and work from there, living an enjoyable life, working less, earning less, but still being able to afford a good standard of life. Personally, I would take an 80% pay cut quite happily to live there, and I'd still be financially secure. Surely, someone could set up a company, employing skilled workers in locations of their choice, to do remote outsourcing work at a relatively low price? Does anyone do this? Has anyone thought about doing this?"
Re:And you'd be productive...? (Score:1)
80% pay cut? (Score:2)
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:5, Interesting)
I really don't know much about Bali, but I assumed he used that wording intentionally. I went to Brazil a couple of times and the cost of living is much much lower than it is here in L.A. I'm paying roughly $1,000 a month for a 1bd apartment. In Brazil, a much much larger apt was roughly $200USD a month. I've actually thought about relocating down there and doing freelance work for the US. Living is cheap and man it's nice down there. The people there are so nice. I mean... wow I still fantasize about it from time to time.
So what stopped me? Even when I found places where I could get 'broadband' internet access, I couldn't get US websites to load very fast. (It's worth mentioning that this was a few years ago.) Since I'm a 3D artist that often works with footage, the practicality of doing something like that was quite questionable. I gave up on that idea.
I have a couple of reasons for posting here. One is that I'm hoping somebody will chime in and say if Bali is like Brazil in the ways I've mentioned. The other is that I'm curious if the internet access in either place today is strong enough to support that type of work. Comments?
Re: (Score:2)
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:1)
I used to read your sig and wonder if it were true... I find myself wondering now why you have changed it.
strike
Re: (Score:2)
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:1)
I can't speak specifically for Bali or Brazil, but I just spent the holidays in Tahiti, and the Internet connection was horrendously slow there. I was having the same thoughts as you the first couple of days there, but the first time I tried to use the Internet burst that bubble.
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:2)
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:5, Informative)
In my town the best connection you can get from ADSL is 1 Mbit/512 kbps, paying I believe something from US$ 80 to 90, all told. No cable connection either. I don't think the situation in the big towns is much better -- I've never heard of anything faster than 1 Mbit/512 kbps. If you really need more than that, you're either going to have to get multiple phone lines with multiple ADSLs, or get a pipe directly from the local tier 1 providers like Embratel (which is going to cost a fortune even by US standards, probably not worth it).
Something you have to pay attention to is the capped plans. The main ADSL provider in São Paulo has monthly caps in place of (I believe) 10 to 40 GB/month, depending on which plan you get. You'll have to look around for uncapped plans or stay away from São Paulo (which is, as far as I know, the only place where caps are implemented -- plus it's not a good town to live in anyway).
Out of curiosity, where were you staying in Brazil?
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:2)
I stayed in Joao Pessoa. Probably seems like a funny place for an American to go visit, but I have a friend down there.
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:2)
Heck I am trying to determine if I should buy a small house for myself at $500 odd dollars a month(mortage plus electric) vs renting an apartment 1/2 the size for $600 a month.
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:2)
Nobody who isn't wildly rich or trying to make money off of a real estate investment should be living in LA. That place is a money sink for middle classers.
Re:80% pay cut? (Score:2)
Duh, yes (Score:2)
Immigration and Work visas. (Score:1)
Control/Trust (Score:3, Interesting)
One major problem though is that people love to be in direct control of those who are working for them. Furthermore, they do not trust what they can not see. If they can not walk by your cubicle and physically see that you are working, then to them, you are NOT working.
This pretty much cuts out hourly or salary work. There is contract work though...
I would find it an interesting challenge to gather up cheap (pricewise) but quality talent gleaned from people who are living in their version of paradise and create a contracting company based upon this premise. Happy people generally make great quality code. There are two very large show stoppers still.
I would need to write contracts that were highly prejudiced against the worker in order to protect myself from slackers and thieves. What this means is that I would be able to cut you at any time and deny you pay for time worked. Would you trust me enough to sign a contract like that? Of course, I would be honorable and continue paying all of those who come through; otherwise my business would falter... but seriously, I wouldn't trust a boss with that kind of control so I really do not expect you to either.
The other big show stopper is bandwidth. You would need a high quality, low latency, high bandwidth connection in order to do video conferencing. I have done projects through IRC before and it works relatively well as far as low impact programming goes. For serious projects, voice communication is an absolute necessity. Adding video on top of that is more of a requirement than a bonus; although whiteboard programs and such do somewhat alleviate the need for video.
Really, this is a great idea and I would love to participate, either as a business owner or a subcontractor. I think the first show stopper kills it though. Trust... *sigh*
strike
Re:Control/Trust (Score:1)
Good luck trying to find people foolish enough to work for you.
What is wrong with both parties sharing in the trust, responsibility, and risk?
Re:Control/Trust (Score:2)
Re:Control/Trust (Score:1)
Re:Control/Trust (Score:2)
If you're actually serious in discussing this idea, email me. Likewise for any other readers...
My suggestion: (Score:2, Insightful)
Why is the parent modded -1 ??? (Score:1, Redundant)
Hard to Collaborate Over Distances (Score:5, Interesting)
Certainly, technology does help to a certain extent. We use email, phone, instant messaging/ Net Meeting, virtual whiteboard, etc. However, it seems like it is harder to convey ideas using these techniques. What ends up happening is within a site, people generally end up on common ground, but between sites is where most of the disagreements in point of view occur.
The second roadblock is that team unity and cohesion suffers. If you see someone on a regular basis and can have informal conversations with them, you can build up a lot of goodwill and trust over time. You know where the person is "coming from" and you have a better understanding of their strengths, weaknesses, and point of view. However, building this type of cohesion across long distances is really hard and it takes a lot more time and effort. As we all know, teams which are "tight" and have a good working relationship are very effective, while teams that lack this often work at cross purposes.
The third roadblock is that communications and information is not propogated efficiently across sites. Sometimes, news and information are passed through informal chats with people. Sometimes I will go over to a co-workers office just to "shoot the breeze" and I will end up learning a lot about what that person is doing and about the project in general that I do not get in the formal meetings.
Based on these personal observations, it seems to me that a virtual team really needs to really need to think about how they are going to overcome these issues in order to really work.
Personally, I think, first and foremost, you need a strong manager who has experience herding cats across time zones.
Second, you need to have a strong technical lead who can set the technical vision and direction for the group, since a virutal team cannot be lead by consensus.
Third, you need to have good collaboration tools to maximize the efficiency of the communications and to try and reproduce the "bull sessions" as best as possible.
Finally, you need to be able to divide up the work so that there are as few dependencies as possible, so that people can work independently on their piece with minimal active collaboration. Obviously, there will be a need to communicate at the integration points, but if you accept the fact that virual teams will not be bale to communicate as efficiently, the need for this communication should be kept as low as possible.
I am not saying that virual teams can't work. However, they need a different style of management, a different style of organization, and they are probably best for certain type of projects.
Now that I think about it, there are a lot of parallels (no pun intended) between parallel computing and the optimal organization of virtual teams. Perhaps there is a thesis topic lurking in there somewhere!
Re:Hard to Collaborate Over Distances (Score:1)
it is simply *not* difficult to collaborate in non-local ways on nearly all abstract topics (i.e., those which involve only the creation or re-organization of information in electronic form) -- i am a member of a high-energy physics collaboration (babar) involving ~600 physicists and our collaborators are located across the planet in china, novosibirsk, central and western europe and the u.s., while our experimental facility (slac) is located in the san francisco bay area
the only problem (and it is
Re:Hard to Collaborate Over Distances (Score:2)
Basically, a poorly managed project will get worse if you work remotely. Involving people with poor language skills (either foreigners or just illiterate english speakers) doe
Re:Quite the opposite here (Score:2)
Do Australians get special consideration on getting UK work visas? I (an American) looked into the requirements to get a visa to work in the UK a few years back, and it looked pretty onerous. I notice that they do give special preference to certain nations though, but unfortunately the US isn
Re:Quite the opposite here (Score:2)
Re:Quite the opposite here (Score:1)
Re:Quite the opposite here (Score:1)
Re:Quite the opposite here (Score:4, Informative)
Consider the fact that I am an Australian citizen, and will be a UK citizen shortly, but I can't get a work permit in the USA without sponsorship from a US company. However, as a UK citizen, I can work anywhere in the EU.
I highly recommend it (Score:5, Informative)
I highly recommend it. A few thoughts:
--MarkusQ
P.S. My present job (which I'm taking a break from for a few minutes to cruse /.) is in the US. My house is on the side of a (dormant) volcano near the equator.
Yeah, I'd say you're on to a good idea.
One other thing I forgot (Score:5, Informative)
I forgot in my list:
You'll need to get serious about UPS/battery backup (or just do everything on laptops) and making backups, etc. You probably think electricity 24/7/52 is normal. My power is up a good 99% of the time--meaning I average about 24*60/100 = 15 minutes of no-electricity a day, with outages lasting from 5 seconds to 5 hours. Not unsupportable, once you accept and plan to deal with it, but a pain in the butt if you don't.
--MarkusQ
And another other thing (Score:2)
Social insects [antbase.org] comprise up to 80% of the animal biomass in many parts of the world. This is not a problem, per se, but something you want to be aware of. If you are especially squeamish about bugs! you might want to stay closer to one of the poles.
--MarkusQ
Re:And another other thing (Score:2)
Well you had the right number, but wrong clause.
It was 80% of all all insect biomass.
Only 30% of all animal biomass,
And even less if you were to include plant mass.
Re:And another other thing (Score:3, Insightful)
You may well be correct. I know they've formed well over 80% of the animal biomass (and total biomass for that matter) located inside my house at various times, so I may be more inclined to err on the side of Insects! than otherwise.
The key point really being that no fish, very very few plants, almost no birds, few reptiles, and only a small fraction of the mammals will routinely think it's a good idea to explore your dwelling on the off chance that something they might want is inside. For social insec
Re:I highly recommend it (Score:2)
Surfer Duuude (Score:2)
It wouldn't have been too bad except he wasn't a very good programmer and we had to spend a lot of time cleaning up his mistakes.
Not a good experience.
Re:Surfer Duuude (Score:1)
Programmers seem to be about the only job telecommuting works for. System administrators can never telecommute or be farther than a half hour away from their servers even when on vacation unless they have a backup in place.. you NEVER know when a machine is going to croak and when it does you have a bunch of whiny ass programmers from Hawaii or India phoning you up and bitching
Rentacoder.com (Score:3, Interesting)
One thing to keep in mind though, are Tsunami's and the cost of shipping to an island. You'll probably pay much more for internet goods (not services - ahem).
Have fun, and send some postcards!
Eh? (Score:1)
Although, you migth need to worry more about desieases and healthcare. Most tropical islands have bugs and other conditions where your body is not used to. And making it worse, they don't have expertise doctors on hand so it may be quite a pain.
Re:Eh? (Score:2)
The important thing (at least for Thailand) is catastrophic healthcare coverage for hospitalization; a doctors visit will cost you less than a co-pay in the US, but westerners are always getting into motor cycle accidents and other such f
It can work (Score:2)
Recently the founder has passed away, and this is an issue because she was the one holding the org together. We're all scrambling to pick up the slack and getting things going again. (RI [natashaforever.org]
Third-world business, first world income? (Score:3, Informative)
It also brings new social opportunities. Third-world chicks dig American guys. You're a millionaire in their eyes, even if you make $1,000 a month. You are also exotic and curious and odd, and that uniqueness is attractive in ways money doesn't completely explain. True, they love you for your money, as well as being you, but that's really no different from how American girls work. The only difference is that you're at the top of the food chain instead of the middle.
The biggest problem, of course, is that your options in getting customers don't include the schmoozing that is so necessary in cases like this. In my case, I have a business partner who's staying in the US and dealing with those things. At the very least, you would need a US bank account to accept money and someone in the US to deposit checks. Most affiliate programs and Google Adwords require US addresses and banks.
In the Philippines, you come in on a tourist visa and can renew it for up to 12 months. At that point you have to leave the country for 24 hours. Most people doing this take one day vacations in nearby Hong Kong, Singapore or Taiwan.
Make sure you have very carefully researched the cost of living in your chosen area. You can usually bring in your laptop computer, but parts and service for it may be scarce. Computers and other electronics can cost double or triple what they do in the US thanks to stiff tariffs and corruption. On the other hand if you're stopped by a cop, you pay PHP500 ($10) and you can go on your merry way without the slightest stain on your driving record.
Bear in mind that costs are lower, but not evenly so. Used cars in the Philippines cost maybe 40% more than they do in the US, because there are a lot of import duties. You can get cheap native made cars but you probably won't like them. Gas in the Philippines cost slightly less than the US, thanks to lower taxes, but it's still expensive. On the other hand, a high-rise apartment in Manila's most expensive elite area goes for about PHP60,000 ($1,000) a month. You can get housing in major cities for PHP7000 (about $125). True, it lacks a bath tub or hot water, but the water's lukewarm anyway.
DSL Internet, in areas that support it, is about $50 a month. Everyone uses cellphones and they're all on prepaid plans which are very cheap. Despite this, most people in the Philippines use text messaging because it's even cheaper.
So why did I choose the Philippines? Amazingly low cost of living, for one thing. Most people speak a bastardized version of English, so the language isn't a big problem. And of course it's a tropical island which means I can enjoy going swimming and boating.
So if you've always wanted to be your own boss, and have a good business plan you can execute, going to a third world country might just be the way to do it.
But beware: You won't be able to make money there yourself. Skilled workers go begging at P200 ($4) a day. And even technical workers don't fare much better, from what I've been told. The key in going to a third-world country is to keep some reasonable fraction of your first-world income.
I'm in the final phases of my research and will be visiting the Philippines in February. (All of this information is from my pre-trip research.) I plan to blog during my trip showing my reactions to real life there. Watch amazing.com (which will be changing radically soon) for details.
D
Re:Third-world business, first world income? (Score:2)
The authorities don't care that you still have a job in the US while you're visiting.
And of course if you are running a business, that's not even a job.
I'm not sure what their attitude towards employing their workers is, but I know that most retirees wind up hiring Filipina maids (as well as marrying Filipina women) and nobody ever gives them any trouble about it.
D
more info on Bali (Score:4, Informative)
While Bali is fairly idyllic, apparently there are problems with foreigners being cheated in land sales and with becoming a resident.
General note: If you wish to work and/or live elsewhere, The EscapeArtist [escapeartist.com] is a good resource to plan with.
Fascinating (Score:2)
Step 2: US workers send themselves overseas where it's cheaper
Step 3: Profit???
I don't get it. What's going to be left in the US? Is this a form of deflation in which workers cost less and (theoretically) goods cost less due to lower costs of doing business?
Re:Fascinating (Score:2)
Sadly, the people that don't realize when to get out! Try reading The World is Flat.
Re:Fascinating (Score:2)
1) I lived and worked in Australia for Australian companies
2) A European company based on London outsourced some work to me in Australia where it's cheaper.
3) I moved to London, where it's more expensive, to do the same work there, so I could be paid more.
4) I'm looking into moving overseas where it's cheaper, to do the UK work and still keep (some of) the higher pay.
It's got nothing to do with the US... But I get your point. Interesting point, too...
My guess? (Score:1, Troll)
I don't get it. What's going to be left in the US?
If I had to guess, a bunch of fundamentalist christians who are willing to give up all their civil rights for the assurance that no married gay people ever get an abortion. Oh yeah, and to fight terrorists.
--MarkusQ
Re:Fascinating (Score:2)
So what's wrong with that again?
The only thing that really loses in that scenerio is the factors that prop up the American cost of living, which bluntly is bloody high compared to the rest of the world.
When I lived in LA, I had a $428,000
Re:Fascinating (Score:2)
I have a friend that works for Dell support. He just bought a home with 5 acres, a shop, and a barn for 60,000. He lives in Idaho. There are many places in the US where the cost of living is a lot less than California or New York. Even in New York you can find many places that are not expensive if you don't want to live in New York City.
It all depends on where you want to live. LA, San Francisco, Miami, New York and Boston are all pret
Telecommuting is Evil (Score:4, Insightful)
But for me it sucks.
I'm a tech writer, which means I spend a lot of time milking information from development engineers. Last time I worked for this company, I seldom could get engineers to answer my email -- they had too much shit in the fire, and responding to a tech writer didn't have any priority. No problem: I just wandered by their offices, asked them a few questions, and left. Much less time consuming for both of us than compusing a lot of emails.
Can't do that any more. Half the engineers I need to communicate with don't work on site. Some I can telephone. But not the ones that live on the other side of the planet! And the ones who do work on site seem to spend all day in teleconferences with the ones who don't, so I can't corner them either.
My own team is just as bad. My manager telecomutes from across the country, as do two of the writers I work most closely with. We have weekly staff meeting by teleconference, which have to occur early in the morning to accomodate a couple of folks in Europe. There are a couple of new hires that don't attend at all because they live even further east.
We have technical and planning screwups because it's so difficult to communicate. Plus communicating up and down the food chain is damned difficult, since my boss never has face time with me or her boss. I could go around my manager, but that's not smart unless your boss happens to be a total idiot. And for once, I have a boss who's actually pretty sharp.
I shouldn't complain. I get paid well, and people respect my work and my concerns. It's just that all these low-bandwidth channels degrade the quality of my work, and that hurts my professional pride.
Oh yeah, here's the ironic part. I'd like to move closer to my family, help my sisters look after our aging mother. And I might have a chance to go permanent with this company. Which would give me a chance to work from home...
Re:Telecommuting is Evil (Score:1)
Richard Branson (Score:1)
Comment removed (Score:4, Interesting)
Re:Can I have your place? (Score:2)
And don't get me wrong, I love London -- I just could do with a change of pace and place for a while. Not necessarily permanently...
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Can I have your place? (Score:1)
Re:Can I have your place? (Score:2)
Telecommuting from Phuket, Thailand (Score:5, Informative)
Some pitfalls for you to understand:
One last tip, find an expat website for the area you think you want to go and hang out there for a while to understand the pitfalls and work-arounds before you encounter them yourself! For Thailand, I suggest ThaiVisa.
Re:Telecommuting from Phuket, Thailand (Score:2)
Re:Telecommuting from Phuket, Thailand (Score:2)
Disconnect work place you live (Score:2)
Couple of points, though:
(1) You have a life outside work. Make sure you mark that territory very carefully because you will have colleagues/bosses/companies that would like you 100% available - not possible for a human.
(2) Some things require physical
Short Term Existence in a Tropical Environment (Score:4, Interesting)
I've lived on a tropical island for twelve years and returned to the US. From experience:
1. The natives won't make your life easy. If you want to live there, you want to live there with all the rights and privileges you had in Britain. Fat chance. Will you get to vote? Can you own land? Do you speak the language of your local representative. If some local thug takes an interest in you or your business, do you have any recourse?
2. Life changes. I went to paradise with my wife and returned with three children. The educational opportunities are limited. When my oldest child took a first grade standardized US test and failed after graduating highest in her class, it was time to leave.
3. All thing rot in paradise. Bali, Thailand or anywhere in the tropics is fecund, incredibly fecund. Things grow. Fungus grows - everywhere. Bugs grow everywhere. Everything is green. Computers are not green. Modern appliances are not green. All the conveniences we enjoy in the middle latitudes rust or fail in the tropics. Expect many difficulties maintaining your equipment and lifestyle.
If you want to go to Bali and telecommute, do it. Save up enough money. Start your own business doing contract coding over the internet and go.
Keep enough money to come back.
Telecommuting works well ... in some cases (Score:4, Interesting)
To give another story on working from home:
At my company, we have two groups working on different products (software). For one group development was split between two locations, to make commute easier. But in that group that lead to immense problems. People didn't communicate with the other location, rivalries (the bad kind) crept into the relationship and the product suffered as as result. Now they are in one location, and things are going much better.
The second group (where I am) on the other hand, had its members split into all directions from the beginning. Half of it was working from home, and the other half is now as well. Some are on the road almost always, doing support or installations, sometimes assisting sales people. We meet each other rarely in person. But we work together without trouble, and are as efficient as ever. That is for two reasons: First, we stay in contact closely via all means possible: IM, VoIP, phone, EMail, discussion boards, aso. Second, we were friends and working together at other companies before the current one and know each other well.
So, to sum it up: As others have written, only being in contact electronically can be problematic, as you have trouble building up trust and the kind of relationship that is necessary for well-oiled development.
But if you have all of that already, you can make it work just fine.
Be nice to each other and do not forget that in electronic communications (of all kinds) a lot gets lost. Words alone make it difficult to get what the other wants to say, so it is better to assume the thing he just said was just a joke, not an insult. That the phrasing was just harsh out of not having much time, not because the other side disklikes you.
If you intend to do contract work, that makes it difficult, but if you've worked together for years, go for it.
Work next to the customer (Score:2)
This is a typical case of working yourself out of a job. Offering to telecommute is like handing your boss a permission slip to outsource you - either to a lesser paid employee or to an overseas subcontractor. If you can do the job from the beach in Bali, so can the Indian working in a sweatshop of Bangalore. At that point, it's just training.
If you want to keep your job, get one where you directly support a customer and must show up or live on-site. The momentum required to replace you is even higher.
Re:Work next to the customer (Score:1)
And
"But perhaps you are confusing the hubris of the Perl programmer which states
Re:Work next to the customer (Score:2)
The fact is that employer
Yes, you can (Score:2)
I live in and work from Uruguay, South America; my situation is different to yours since I didn't move from the US, but yes, it's very possible to do first-world business from a third-world country. We've been doing it successfully since late 2002.
It depends on what do you want to do, of course. If you're a freelancer or ind
I know people who are doing this now. (Score:1)
Experience is the only way to go. (Score:1)
consider your buying habits carefully (Score:3, Interesting)
One thing to consider if the job will entail a significant pay cut is to what extent your expenses will be at the cheap local rates. In many third world countries local food and housing are very cheap, but imported items are very expensive. You'll almost certainly want to buy imported tech gear. Will you be able to afford it? Similarly, how expensive will it be to travel elsewhere if that is important to you? Do you like the local foods, or will you want to import a lot of expensive stuff? If you read a lot, to what extent will locally available materials satisfy you? Can you read the local language? And is a lot of what interests you published locally? If not, purchasing books from the US or other countries and importing them may be very expensive.
Working From Home on a Tropical Island Paradise (Score:1)
Cheap place to work. (Score:1)