Is There Still Racism in IT Hiring Practices? 1085
noahz asks: "Today [now three days ago] in the United States marks Martin Luther King Day, remembering the birthday - and legacy - of the great civil rights leader. It's been over 40 years since his march on Washington, back when IT was still in its infancy and was exclusively a white, male field. But, how much progress has been made in the IT world? I recently had a recruiter tell me that I would have no problem finding a job in the current economy - not because I am enthusastic, well-educated and have good experience - but because I am caucasian - 'white'. This particular recruiter insisted that his years experience has led him to this conclusion - but I wonder: what the collective experience of the Slashdot readership has found?"
I don't even know the race of most of our IT staff (Score:3, Interesting)
Seem to me IT, thanks to virual offices and networking is probably the most race-blind industry in existance.
Having lost my job based on not being a 'minority' (Score:3, Interesting)
Perhaps (Score:5, Interesting)
Yes (Score:5, Interesting)
I plan to do just that.
So, there's racism in 2006 for you. Blacks and whites together, fighting for our jobs. BTW, we're white.
Does Anyone Experience Sexism? (Score:2, Interesting)
I've been discriinated against (Score:3, Interesting)
Where I work... (Score:5, Interesting)
CIO: White female
Academic tech: white male (me)
Media Services: black male
Network manager: white male
Server manager: black male
Programmers: two white males, one white female
Staff support: white female
Hardware: white female
Help Desk: one white female, one black male
Total: 9 white, 3 black, 7 men, 5 women.
Seems pretty balanced to me given the local population. Then again, we tend to hire people with little experience and promote from within. (CIO started as a secretary years ago, server manager began as a help desk grunt, etc.)
This is idiotic (Score:5, Interesting)
Christ! My department is like the freakin UN. I have a Brit, 2 black women, a kid of some undefined ethnicity and Swedish/Puerto Rican!
*I'm the white guy!*
Re:It's it reality (Score:5, Interesting)
Hah! My first job out of college was tech support. And I forget how many people (women in particular) asked to be connected to a "real" technician. I even had one guy tell me he wasted his time talking to a woman.....
Back in 1990 (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Having lost my job based on not being a 'minori (Score:5, Interesting)
Many companies are scared shitless that they will be targeted under civil rights laws because they appeared to (but actually dont, they just hire the most qualified people who happen to be asian or white for the most part) discriminate against blacks or if they fire a black worker for doing poorly.
Our civil rights laws have brought alot of needed progress to society but they are a double-edged sword, in their current (and largely unchanged form). There is definitely a subculture of minorities out there who like to use their minority status as a crutch and leveraging tool in the workplace.
Re:Accent is a bigger issue (Score:3, Interesting)
Depends on the company (Score:2, Interesting)
At least on the IT side, of about 50 here there are 4 whites, and no blacks. In HQ, there are no more than maybe 15 whites, and 3 blacks - the rest being Indian, Chinese and Japanese (and a few other nationalities I'd guess).
For people claim that whites are the ones getting preferential treatment in hiring, all I can say is that the shoe is occasionally on the other foot. Do I care? No - they pay me, people are generally pleasant, and I figure that if I was able to get in the door, another white or black could get in given the right timing and skillsets.
Do they occasionally choose someone based on race? Absolutely. However, a lot of that comes down to the applicant's ability to speak the language, and that sort of thing. Therefore, while I don't like not being on the same playing field, I'm getting a fair enough shot that it doesn't hold me back significantly.
Does that "significantly" descriptor play a factor in the likelihood that I'll stay here though? You bet your ass. While I've been with these folks for about 6 years, it's made enough of an impression that if I was given another job offer and my company matched it, I'd leave.
Re:Accent is a bigger issue (Score:5, Interesting)
Yep.
My father was a programmer. He turned 55 in 2000; in the lead-up to Y2K he did pretty well, having skills with older systems, but after that...nothing. He was out of work for years before moving on to a different field (real estate [markswiss.net].)
That made me look around the office. How many developers over 40 were there? Few. Over 50? One.
I decided to go back to school and get a job skill [earthtouchshiatsu.com] that can't be outsourced and (if I stay healthy) I can keep going into my 60s or later. (I'm still doing software part-time.)
Yes, just like there is in other fields (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Reverse Racism (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Back Of The Bus With You (Score:3, Interesting)
Without it , I am your average Caucasian , as soon as I put the hat on I become recognisable as Jewish .
Its a tough choice , do I hide who I am , even though it goes against my nature , just so I can smooth things out and avoid grief .
Or do I wear it and face the possibility of losing a contract because someone thinks I am a "Yid " or a "kike" or whatever racist shit they have in their brain .
I know most people don't mind who you are , what colour skin or what ethnic background , but there are still some who do.
You even see some of it on Slashdot in milder forms , (at the higher rated comments) . Loads of troll crap as well , but that does not really count .
Re:Yes (Score:2, Interesting)
So perhaps 2 things at work here:
1. I'd be afraid, as an employer, to hire someone who will sue me when let go.
2. I'm afraid, as an employer, to lay off an non-qualified minority and keep a really qualified white guy.
Sucks, don't it? It's a bunch of crap, what political correctness is doing to us. Sure as hell isn't helping anyone, especially not minorities.
Re:Americans are not very ethnocentric (Score:1, Interesting)
Americans is one of the most ethnocentric nations in the world. Look at your media, mostly white people. Do Americans watch movies made in other nations? Not much. Do you see minority male actors in romantic leads? Hardly ever. Do you see a white male in almost every movie, regardless of location or story? Almost always.
Fact is, white Americans have a harder time putting themselves in the shoes of another race, or nation even.
Everyone in Asia watches American movies, idolizes American stars and celebrities. Americans have not done the same.
This post was sent as AC because any opinion against Americans gets modded -1. Sort of like groupthink and censorship.
Of course all Americans aren't like that, but to think that Americans are very welcoming of any culture is naive. They only try to fit other cultures within their own mindset.
Re:Having lost my job based on not being a 'minori (Score:1, Interesting)
Re:Having lost my job based on not being a 'minori (Score:2, Interesting)
I worked on a project back in my undergrad days for a large government agency. At the end of the project, when the administrator was announcing to everyone that they had an opening for an engineer, I was politely told after the announcement that the opening was not for me because I wasn't a minority. I wasn't really interested in their peanuts anyway, but it kinda stuck with me.
Re:A unique Black sysadmin's opinion (Score:2, Interesting)
Racism starts from the self-centered-view. And I think most of the people in the world still does that, and I think even the so called Anti-Rasists, also, does that.
I saw an american black guy seeing me like a some kind of freak at the Home Depot because I did not RESPECTed him in his way. When he asked me if I need a help for finding Home Depot product, I said no with: I did not looked into his eye and I was somewhat being defensive when I'm saying No. And he gave me "....Ohhh Kay.... Ohhh Kay..." feeling. Oh god. I understand that feeling. You give me that feeling when you think I am a racist.
But wait a minute. We Korean people are, at the first place, defensive to everything. We Korean people are, at the first place, do not stare into someone's eye unless you want to fight one.
Oh christ, we Korean people never do the Respect in the way American people does because it is not just what Korean people do. It's not because you are a black but it is because of what we are, we have totally different emotional/cultural/expression-of-emotion system and it has nothing to do with other *cultural* bases.
Of course some of so called Old-Aged-Extremely-Uneducated-Korean-People don't like black or white or hispanic or jewish or anyone other than their own town's people. Just like they don't like people from *our next town*.
In many other cultural bases' view, especially "nice and cool based cultural system guys" and "nice and cool and respect-based cultural system guys" will think we Koreans are something like a Haters or something.
Maybe. Compared to other "Good, Cool, Well-Respecting" people.
But we have another respecting system for that. We have another it's OK and cool system for that. We have another *that's nice* system for that.
I don't think it is a Racial problem, it's rather cultural problem.
Some people want to be RESPECTED in some way, but some people like that in Other Way.
Some people want to be Loved in some way, but some people don't do that in that way.
Now, from what you have described, I think that is just SO NORMAL JAPANESE!!!
They do that to their own people things like making bullshit of your RIGHT CHOICE. I mean, if they do that to their own people, why not to the Black American???? If they don't do that especially to the Black American, they ARE the racist but if they treat you just like they treat the japanese, I don't think they are. And you say they are a racist because they did not respected you in YOUR way? Did you ever respected THEM in THEIR WAY? Maybe they are just a racist and you are an innocent well succeeded from the hell Cinderalla Man. You got to know that, there are a LOT of country that has Hate/Sadness/Defensive/Bullying/MakingFunOfIt-bas
Comment removed (Score:5, Interesting)
Slavery.. (Score:1, Interesting)
Now what does slavery have to do with this? Slavery left black american culture decimated - I just don't get people that insist that black people should be over it by now. That's impossible - those that take this view simply don't understand culture - too much is passed from generation to generation, and it takes a long time to build that base. We are more of a blank slate at birth than people realize, it is culture that in large part defines our behavior.
Imagine coming out of slavery after living as a supplicant for so many years. How do you think former slaves raised their children? How well do you think these parents taught their children to cope in a society that values self-sufficiency and independence? The parents were taught to be afraid all their lives, and conditioned to obey the masters will. Most just didn't have the experience to sufficiently prepare their kids for the society they entered, and so these effects have rippled for generations. This goes back to the critical thinking skills that the black dude mentioned above was talking about. These kinds of things MUST be taught and many black american kids aren't getting it.
This cultural disability of sorts is also complicated by issues of identity. Not only is it hard for black parents and their kids to cope in a society that expects them to value critical thinking, but to value such a thing it must be taught in the first place. But many black americans loathe the idea of being defined by something they identify as belonging to the oppressor class. To learn the value of it they have to at least be willing to imitate it. And they don't teach this kind of thing in public school either, so it comes down to home life. Public school just tends to prepare people for more supplication. So we are stuck here in a bad feedback loop, though one that is being corrected slowly to start, but one that should quicken with time.
Local Police and Fire (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Back Of The Bus With You (Score:2, Interesting)
Which is, frankly, bullshit.
You know what, not a lot of femals were in my CS classes either. Why?
Because society has a strong sexist bias. Because girls are told "math is a boy's subject". Because girls are given the message that they shouldn't go into computer science and math.
I'm sick of being some apologetic white guy for a racism that I have never taken part in
If you just sit there thinking that there's nothing you can do about racism/sexism, then yes you are taking part in it. You don't need to do much to help end it though. Just stop perpetuating the views you have and call bullshit when other people express.
I am Mexican-American and... (Score:2, Interesting)
No, it's not an issue of trying to prove myself as "overcoming the odds". I can care less about that. However, I do feel subtle stereotypes make most perspective managers feel at first glance that I'd be better suited for some ethnic studies position at best.
NOTE - I'm a tanned latino with brown skin. There are many light skinned latinos with more of a european influence which would make them more likely pass as "white". I am not one of those. Also, for you non-Americans out there, there are not many pure spaniards that live in the US, so no you can't try to argue that the last name could also imply I'm from spain.
Re:Back Of The Bus With You (Score:3, Interesting)
Your next sentence says it all.
Blame Death Row records or something, but not me.
Why not? Because you can point to a few black people who have no business in IT?
Hiring managers can't hire qualified minorities (blacks) if there are none to hire, and the few out there are being snatched up quickly by companies eager to satisfy quotas.
Did it ever occur to you that they're being snatched up because they're qualified?
LK
Re:Back Of The Bus With You (Score:3, Interesting)
Biological fact - the average woman has a better multitasking capability than the average man.
I hate to shout here, but this really ticks me off. MEN AND WOMEN ARE PHYSICALLY DIFFERENT, MENTALLY DIFFERENT AND HAVE DIFFERENT SKILLS.
This means, for example, the average woman is usually better suited to work such as secretarial or workflow management than the average man. Likewise, the average man is better suited to be a construction worker than the average woman. There are many hundreds of thousands of exceptions, but saying all men and all women are entirely equal in all aspects is complete bullshit (Well, you said to call it).
Re:Back Of The Bus With You (Score:2, Interesting)
Well, this remainds me of a (criminalistic) story which appears in various cultures thruout the world: A crime was commited by an unknown perpetrator. Following evening, the local community priest or shaman summons all suspects and commands them to get him a twig, each. He cuts all twigs down to same length, performs a ceremony over them, gives twigs back to them and declares that in the morning, by the power of supernatural, the twig of the guilty person will be an inch longer. You guessed it - in the morning, when all twigs were presented, one was an inch shorter - the perpetrator trimmed own one to compensate for the growth he believed will occur.
Likewise, in the society were a solution to a problem becomes yet another problem to solve, compensation "overshoots" are intended to make *statsistics* look good, but in fact, problem is made worse overall for those many others bellow the line. Pay one female $7K over market price so you could keep seven of them underpayed $1K each, while summary report shows equal treatment of sexes. CYA. Furthermore, this has deteriorating effect on the morale of the protege - the one feels incompetent, insignificant (plays passive role, whatever one does or does not, makes no difference) and isolated from, even pitted against, everyone "realy working", quite like as if they were mistreated and pushed down.
Correct solution would be to boost competency, morale and ambition of professionals coming from less represented social groups thru special programs of support and additional education if needed, not to turn them into "decoration". On the other side, the perception about them in the society should be changed, using means of mass communication, giving publicity to examples of succesfulness from real life, not some cheesy movies and TV shows. Without it, "Affirmative Action" is just a tool to deepen divide in society, contrary to stated goals.
Why not? There's still racism every where else. (Score:2, Interesting)
What about reverse racism, or EOE (Score:2, Interesting)
This thread is killing me (Score:0, Interesting)
IMHO, you have to seek the job in order to show an interest in the job. I don't believe that there are many blacks, women, or hispanics that are interested in doing what we do.
When I was in college, there was one black in our CCNA courses, and he was very discouraged. The instructor constantly asked him to use proper english and to purchase a belt. He eventually left the class, as well as the college. Nobody was to blame but himself, as he could not conform.
I think that part of the racial debate that we fail to recognize is the fact that white people are discouraged to say anything negative about blacks and hispanics, yet on the other side of the coin, the same is not true. Be black, wear a black power shirt, no problem. Be white, wear a white power shirt... That is the reason most of you posted as anonymous cowards.
I am eagerly awaiting the affirmitive action crowds to make a feeble attempt to dumb our choice of work down, by mandating that we hire people with little skill for much money simply because they fall into a racial or gender category. Say it won't happen, but if it can happen to hospitals, it can happen anywhere.
And yes, coming from a "Scottish-Irish-American", I invite the comments of my poorly written, unsympathetic rant... Especially from Mexican-Europeans and Chinese-Africans.
True story (Score:5, Interesting)
Once, for his job, he had to go be a liason for a brief period at another company. As it happened, this other company was one where he had applied for a job but hadn't gotten an interview the previous year. He liked the job he ended up getting, so he had no hard feelings.
Somehow the fact that he had applied at this other company came up when he was on-site. The person he was working with was actually one of the people who had reviewed his resume. "Oh, yeah, I remember you!" he said. "See, we thought you were black because of your name. Ha ha! If we had know, we probably would have given you an interview."
It's only one data point, but
jf
Re:Back Of The Bus With You - AGEism (Score:1, Interesting)
salary). Beats working retail.
Sad but true (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Back Of The Bus With You (Score:3, Interesting)
"Be proud of your heritage!" Why? Your heritage is this: No matter the color of your skin, shape of your nose, curliness of your hair, you and every other person on the planet have a common female anscestor who lived about 200,000 years ago. Everything since then (or more accurately, since about 1M years BC) is just minor genetic fluctuation and homo sapien's inane desire to rationalize and/or justify its competitive nature.
Racism, and every other form of prejudice, will continue to exist for as long as humanity continues to be unable to accept and manage the dichotomy created when will and instinct are mixed inside a single mind.
Re:Back Of The Bus With You (Score:3, Interesting)
I know a married couple, both in the IT field. Woman is upset that she doesn't make nearly as much as her husband but they both have equal credentials and schooling - both work in the same company. I work with her - quiet, shy, barely speaks up, always down about something, smiles rarely, but does a good job when given a chance. Her presentation skills suck though, she mumbles and stares at her feet - no enthusiasm. did I mention she's in a management position?
One day I met her husband, outgoing, speaks up, has opinions and expresses them, willing to listen to others, someone I could easily work with. Guess which one DESERVES to be making more? Yup, HE does! Why? Because he can communicate, he can express ideas, because he is someone you can work with and be around without feeling depressed. He is a leader, she isn't. Your idea of machine given tests doesn't allow for this and you would quickly end up with a bunch of bright but introverted dorks hiding in cubes and flush your business down the drain.
It doesn't matter how smart or bright you are - if your personality sucks no one will want to work with you or for you. Oh, and I work with more than a few minorities. With rare exception they perform just as well as anyone else. When you encounter an exception though it's a doozy but likely no worse than someone who's not a minority who doesn't do their job. I *do* see quotas though, especially in Govt. services but that's not so much the IT world really.