Training - A Company or a Worker's Responsibility? 709
r0wan asks: "I'm currently working as a Microsoft Systems Administrator. Through a series of bungled management decisions, have found myself responsible for a Windows Server 2003 Active Directory network, that I know nothing about (the person who was sent for training was: not the Microsoft point person, as I was; and left the company, soon after the domain upgrade). It doesn't look as though training will be forthcoming, and I've just been moved from the lab, where I was training myself while simultaneously handling the domain. I've got the MCSA/MCSE Training Kit, but recently I've found
numerous errors, so many that I was sent a free Press Kit book, for submitting all of the errors I had found. Between management's reluctance to shell out for training, and being moved from the lab, I'm getting the distinct sense that training is something I'm expected to take care of, on my own time. Is this the de-facto standard within IT, and for all jobs within IT? If so, how do you Slashdot readers keep up with your continuing education, while still maintaining a personal life? Is it naive to try to leave my work at work?"
"I'm especially interested in hearing from the Slashdot readers of the female persuasion, as I have a husband, a dog, and a household to keep up with (no kids by choice, but I wouldn't have the time to take care of them, even if I wanted to). I also have the added responsibility of being the primary breadwinner. My free time is valuable in that it allows me to take care of that which I can't during the day (grocery shopping, dog responsibilities, cleaning, etc), and decompress/de-stress in order to prepare for the next day's work. I like tinkering with computers and learning new stuff, but I fear that if I'm expected train myself, outside of work, I may need to consider a different career.
Thanks in advance for the input."
Normal for my employer (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Normal for my employer (Score:5, Funny)
Re: Normal for my employer (Score:5, Funny)
Why does a mushroom need to know what day it is?
He's discovering reality. Isn't it cute? (Score:5, Insightful)
Congratulations. You're beginning to wake the fuck up.
Rule 1: Companies need to generate profits. Cash flows from the customers pockets to the stock holders pockets. In order to maximize profits, there must be as little spent on things that are known in accounting circles as expenses.
There is no rule 2, only legal complience issues.
Training is an expense. Training is expendable.
Hell, you are an expense. If you weren't being paid so much, or at all, the stock holders would be delighted.
Hint: When ever you hear somebody say "Our employees are our greatest asset" they're lying, or they don't understand basic accounting, or they're slavers and illegal after-market organ transplanters.
If management doesn't seem interested, its because they aren't. All the arguments about it being counter-productive and costing more in the end don't matter.
See rule 1.
Re:He's discovering reality. Isn't it cute? (Score:5, Interesting)
While I do not agree with your parent's post, I think the answer to your question is to not work for a corporation. If you are working for someone else then you are making them rich. It is almost guaranteed that you arent being paid what you are worth, because then where is the profit for your employer?
The only way to make what you are worth is to go into business for yourself. If you cannot hack it, then you were never worth that much in the first place. I program small niche software, and make sure that there is some reason for the customers to have to keep paying (like updates). After launching and dealing with initial patching, it can run by itself with just the cost of a tech support guy making $10 an hour. Sell only 50 copies a month of a $100 program and you are making $5k a month, with only $2k going to employees. Keeping releasing a new peice of software every couple of years and you are soon a very rich man. And this does not count updates or tech support fees. Just find some way to make someone else's life easier and they will pay you for it.
Sure you are paying your employees alot less than they are making for you, but that is life. If they were smart enough to actually do something with their life other than working for someone else, then they would branch off and start their own company. If they arent smart enough, then I am doing them a favor by employing them and helping them feed themselves. Most of my employees are only treading water while finishing school or saving up some money to work on something they really want to do; and I wouldnt have it any other way.
--
Re:He's discovering reality. Isn't it cute? (Score:3, Interesting)
There is another subtle bonus to your business philosophy:
Every single one of my employees has sent business my way either after they got a job making more money somewhere else after finishing school, or after starting their own non cpmpeting but relevant business.
Forming these networks of hard working, self reliant people is key. The best way to do that is to give them the eye to their own bootstrap.
Re:He's discovering reality. Isn't it cute? (Score:4, Insightful)
That's unnecessarily harsh and also unrealistic. While I've chosen to live on my own terms, I've also gained priceless experience/knowledge working for certain companies. The scale of certain (non-niche) projects often requires greater resources and better distribution than any individual or group of individuals will be able to muster. Not forming your own ventures has nothing to do with native intelligence or initiative. Some people either don't want to or simply aren't suited for it.
Certainly, not all companies are created equal, and there are those who do in fact choose to hide inside companies, trapped by self doubt or cluelessness. However, your argument doesn't account for other possibilities. According to you, a talented animator or software engineer (for example) working on a contractual basis would be a fool to accept a position at a company like Apple, Google, ILM, Blizzard, EA, etc... where she'd gain excellent benefits, stock options and regular exposure to new methods & ideas.
Re:He's discovering reality. Isn't it cute? (Score:3, Insightful)
I know SlashDot isn't exactly the place to go for humility, but this statement is pr
Re:Normal for my employer (Score:5, Insightful)
That's right. Because you're expected to do your job. If you need information, go find it. It doesn't matter how many people you have to push your way past. Find what you need, and act on it. You may annoy several folks along the way (do try to be somewhat cordial about it), but you'll become invaluable simply because you're the one who gets the job done.
Here's my advice for the submitter:
1. Make a plan. It doesn't have to be anything fancy. Just identify the problem and find the solution that you think will best solve it. If it's training, then make that your plan. If it's simply some reference materials, then make that your plan.
2. Sit down with your boss when you get a chance and say, "Hey, we've got this hole in our operations. It's a big problem for the company as a whole as we're not able to respond as well as we should be. Here's the plan I'd like to execute."
3. If you've got a good boss, your plan will actually be increased seven fold just to ensure that it gets done right. If you've got a mediocre boss, you'll get what you asked for. If you've got a REALLY bad boss, you won't get anything other than a "make due". Since you're already "making due", you're not going to lose anything. Plus you have some ammo in case your boss's boss ever happens to question the operations of your department.
4. ???
5. Profit!!! (Just to be complete.)
I know that coporate life seems like a bottomless pit sometimes. But no one else is going to change it, so you might as well make your own best effort. As long as you make something of an effort not to tick off every higher-up you meet, you should gain at least some leverage. Good luck!
Hmmm. Not sure on that one. (Score:3, Insightful)
Companies are there to make money. You are there to make a pay check. The pay check is pre-determined by whatever you signed onto, the profit of the company is determined solely by r
Oddly enough... (Score:5, Interesting)
In the last 15 to 20 years I've seen the following VERY disturbing trend here in the USA.
People here do not leave their work at work. We work EXCESSIVE hours and are expected to kill ourselves, damage our health and wound our minds to "be more productive" or "increase productivity". (Ever since I left IT, I sleep more, I have more restful sleep, and I'm not at the edge of becoming homicidal.)
In Europe, even the eastern side, people left their work at work. I recall my mother telling me stories when I started hating the working world I encountered here. "Yep, I remember how we used to have it back home, it wasn't as bad as it seemed, now that I think about it. At least we had assured work, nobody got laid off, everyone had assured (and delivered, without need for lawsuits) pensions and retirement, and when they walked out the door at the end of the day, and off the premises, the coat of "labor" wore off, and it was time to enjoy life.
(Nevermind that she left for work at 0700, came back around 1600 in the afternoon, that would be, 4 o'clock for those who cannot read 24 hr clocks.)
I don't know, but now that I look back at it, the commies weren't nearly as abusive in the work place (corruption was rampant, but at LEAST one could actually get ahead based on their skills, if those skills were formidable, here, its very hard because your healthcare is assured by massive expenses, and the healthcare is rarely there when needed, because most people do not want to "get into expenses", I should know, I've been there... or perhaps "they can't find the time" (I've spent weeks trying to plot a day off to go get a filling for a tooth...)
~D
PS - I'm not praising communism, but I am saying that there are some merits to limiting the amount of power CEO's and CoB's have. Perhaps even making them "the people"... it wouldn't hurt to make those dirty bastards have to EARN a living. They bleed the same as we do, perhaps they should put something back into society before they see another dime.
IN CAPITALIST AMERICA... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, what do you suggest? Let the government do it? Do you trust the US gov't with that kind of control over your family?
I am getting less and less happy with my employer all the time. Increased commands, less professional treatment, lowering my benefits, pay not keeping up with increased cost-of-living. That's why my wife and I are thinking of moving. Moving is MUCH easier than emigrating.
I don't want to trade in my responsibility for my family's health for a little dubious security, but don't worry, though, you'll have your socialist government soon enough.
It blows my mind that people believe increased dependence on the government is a good thing.
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:4, Informative)
The USA is the only country in the developed world without nationalised health care. Appropriately, the US government is the only government in the developed world that I wouldn't trust with that kind of control.
Incidentally, not every nationalised health care system is like the British NHS. In Australia, for example, you basically pick which doctor/pharmacy/hospital you want and get a fixed amount of money back from the government. Doctors get to charge what they want. Some doctors charge only what the government gives you, and therefore are effectively free. Others charge more, and so you have to pay some money. And, of course, you are free to buy extra health insurance if you want.
In all cases, the government doesn't make the choices. You do.
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:3, Informative)
All in all, I'd rather have the NHS look after me than have my healthcare dependant on working for some company that wields that power as a beating stick.
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:3, Insightful)
So you'd rather have a company cut corners on your health to keep their stockholders happy? By the way, the HMO reviewed your case and decided that you're just too expensive to keep alive. Please shuffle over to the approved waiting area/pile of bodies and wait for the end.
At least the government's stated goal isn't to make money above all else. In the real world, they'd probably suck too, so I don't really hav
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:3)
No. I'd rather some companies just not provide healthcare insurance (let's get real, here: this is about providing insurance, not healthcare) and let employees find it on their own with the increased salary that results. Competition and varying paradigms are good. The system is too "same" now with every company viewing it as their responsibility to provide healthcare insurance. I have never, ever understood that connection. In my case it makes sense for me because my company is gigantic enough that the
Hehe, keep your words in mind kid :) (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember your words when you've spent 40k and 5 years of college learning a subject which recently became the target of massive outsourcing and layoffs.
I look forward to seeing if you make it past that, I have
~D
Re:Hehe, keep your words in mind kid :) (Score:3, Interesting)
Which ties back into the original subject rather neatly, I think. If your employer pays for you to learn new stuff, good for you - take advantage of it. If not, oh well. Either way, you'd be well advised to take every opportunity to learn new things, even stupid things like Windows administration, and if that means doing it on your own time, so be it.
Training and knowledge acquisition (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:Training and knowledge acquisition (Score:3, Interesting)
Who says it isn't possible? I don't know of anyone who does, but I can't think why it should be out of the question. It could be done by agreeing to a non-compete clause for a specified period, for instance, so you couldn't be poached by a competitor. You can't actually force someone to work if they don't want to, but you can give them a disincentive to quitting.
Of course. Capitalism no longer has competition (Score:5, Interesting)
With that competitive threat removed, capitalism can be as nasty as it wants to be. Because it has monopoly power now.
Very well put. (Score:3)
~D
Re:Of course. Capitalism no longer has competition (Score:5, Insightful)
That's actually a really cool thought. I'm a laissez-faire capitalist, and it is still very interesting.
Under the system I envision, groups would be free to form communist, socialist, or whatever systems for themselves within the larger system. They just wouldn't have the right to force participation from everybody. That would provide a lot more competition, and I've always seen that as one of the benefits. Indeed, I'd argue that without that kind of freedom, we are not truly Free.
Re:Of course. Capitalism no longer has competition (Score:3, Interesting)
Go to the head of the class, you hit a key point. I wouldn't say that is the only problem, but it is a key problem which explains the rapid deterioration of the American working/living standards.
Does anyone -- besides Animats -- remember what Gorbachev told Reagan in their m
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:5, Insightful)
Pretty cool insight. Personally, I grew up aware that many companies would try to take more time than they were entitled to, so I entered the workforce prepared to make my stand and say "No." I work for a large corporation (with all the heartlessness, bureaucracy, and inefficiency that entails) where I started as a co-op student. When I became a full time "exempt" (salaried: they don't pay me for overtime) employee, I quickly realized there were no benefits for me, only potential benefits for my employer. So I strengthened the backbone I had already grown. Now I'm married, and still trying to finish my master's degree. I have a life and responsibilities outside of work. But even if I did not, it is still My Time.
When work needs me for emergencies or a big push, I've got no problem with it. But in general, I simply do not work more than forty hours a week. I change managers frequently, and when I get into a new organization there's often a lot of highly-stressed people expecting that we're all going to have to put in a ton of overtime. I never let that faze me. I figure out what tasks need to be completed by when and move heaven and earth to complete them before that date during my normal work weeks if at all possible. When people ask me to show up for extra work (non-emergency), I explain that I have something previously scheduled. And I always do. I am a very busy man. As I said, I have a life.
This has worked just fine for the last decade. All I needed was a backbone.
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:5, Interesting)
The business world is a pyramid, isn't that what the economics and MBA classes always teach? A large number of people have to be at the bottom so others can climb up.
Not everyone can climb up, otherwise the system wouldn't work. So who gets left at the bottom? Do those who don't get the breaks and can't climb up the ladder deserve their conditions and life? Should they be left to a lesser life because in every competition someone must lose, no matter how good the competitors?
That's a very simplistic answer that doesn't actually solve the problem, that someone is always going to have to take these crap jobs. And unless it's a job seeker's market (which last time I checked it wasn't, particularly with increasing outsources), the employees left at the bottom are not in a position to make such demands for better treatment. That is why unions were formed.
So, rather then being confrontational through organizations such as unions, why can we not proactively correct the system so all workers, including those at the bottom of the pyramid, get the respect and decent working conditions they deserve?
Re:Oddly enough... (Score:3, Insightful)
You really need to learn something about capitalism. There is little relationship between the employees and the consumers/customers in a company. How is it that Nike has been accused for many years of running third world sweat shops (as has the rest of the garment industry) and yet the first thing we are concerned with when buying clothes is the cost. There is nothing which will stop this from happening unless it is artificially implimented (government
Once the camel's nose is in the tent..... (Score:5, Insightful)
But who does it really benefit? (Score:3, Insightful)
I also think it should be the company's responsibility (in general, and in this case) to provide work-related training. However, I don't agree with your assertion that it only benefits the company involved.
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:2)
while this may be true, keep in mind that not everyone is interested in simply positioning themselves for that next promotion or job. Some people, like the submitter, actually place a higher value on thier personal time than anything the company can offer, besides leaving them alone duri
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent looks at dirty pictures at work all day.
I worked 88 hours last week and had to wait until I got home every night to look at teh boobies.
To the OP: seriously, read the stupid Microsoft books, or as much of them as you can stand without puking. Don't bother with the tests until some tells you that it's a requirement that you certify. At that point, you tell them with a straight face that you want compensation for your study time. I say this as a Microsoft Certified Trainer. The stuff on those exams can be pretty out there, and unless you really WANT to be on a "Microsoft Certified" career track there are better things to do with your life.
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:3, Insightful)
hehe. hey, that's the day job..
Last night, I was giving directions over the phone on swapping drives at a remote location, then I did array work from here, and started a 2 day transfer..
Today I spent 4 hours on the phone. Worked on a Win2k box, 15 linux boxes, and tonights task has been to fix a dozen or so libraries on an old RedHat box, so a client can install a piece of software that they want. Oh ya, and got my image thingie working on my site, so people
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:3, Funny)
Kinda like working QA for a brothel.
That job has got to suck - 90% of the time, the user forgot to 'plug it in'.
Should have been "she"/"her" all the way through. (Score:2)
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:5, Insightful)
In this case, neither, but it benefits the employee the least. The company is being shortsighted by forcing an (admittedly) underqualified employee to manage something beyond training. They're also forcing said employee to "train" during free time from manuals and such instead of investing in real training.
It would be fair for the company to send the employee to real training, which would benefit both. If the company's not willing to invest in the employee, they shouldn't expect the employee to give up a ton of free time.
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:4, Insightful)
I've seen some training bungles in my time... like hundreds of thousands of dollars spent to train software engineers to use a proprietary software library... engineers who weren't even with the company that was doing the development.
However, if the company felt it important enough to send the one person off to... why not the other?
On one side, the company probably has a training budget. Did the original poster already have all the training budgeted to her that year? Well, no room to complain. Is the company trying to fleece the original poster? Well, that's a reason to complain.
Then there are a couple other points to that. If you're getting something out of your job that's more than a paycheck, it doesn't hurt to chip in a bit of personal expense to sharpen your skills. If the company treats you poorly otherwise, and you really don't get much out of your job, they probably at least owe you the training and equipment to do what they ask.
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:3, Interesting)
Part of any such deal is that you are investing your time and talents into learning this, and you should be worth more to the companylater - which means they should also be paying youmore. It they think that they own you, and that you "owe" them loyalty for being trained, they should have made that clear by signing a contract to that effect before the training. At whi
Re:But who does it really benefit? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Once the camel's nose is in the tent..... (Score:4, Insightful)
Many IT professionals simply end up negotiating higher salaries based on the amount of personal time they are going to be giving up to be on call or to be in constant training. I realize this option isn't attractive to the submitter, but, especially if you're charged with mission-critical support for high availability networks, it seems to be the nature of the beast.
Re:Once the camel's nose is in the tent..... (Score:5, Insightful)
If necessary, keep records of the time you spend on figuring out problems, and present this (in accumulated form) to your manager, insisting that training will reduce this. Present this in paper memo form, making sure to cc: to file (yours, paper, of course), and make certain that your manager's secretary stamps each memo you deliver to him or her with one of those "Received On" stamps (they still use those, right?). If your manager still refuses training, your ass is covered when the shit hits the fan (and it will).
I've never been in an IT position like this. It doesn't matter, though, because just about every manager with a lean training budget will act the same. Once you prove to your manager that this training is worth the investment, you'll generally get the support you need. On the other hand, you might see (currently) intangible benefits by training yourself. You're a go-getter with initiative. A straight-shooter with upper management written all over you.
Re:Once the camel's nose is in the tent..... (Score:5, Insightful)
You might want to be careful, though, that your manager doesn't just decide that laying you off and hiring someone with the training is cheaper.
Unfair Dismissal (Score:3, Interesting)
In England, firing someone for being unable to do a job to which they have been moved without training might (IANAL) count as unfair dismissal. You could take your ex-employer to an Employment Tribunal.
Re:Once the camel's nose is in the tent..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh god no. If the company isn't willing to shell out for proper training, they are more than willing to take advantage of your hard work. If you need no incentive to work as hard as you can, they will give you no incentive to work as hard as you can.
Yes, there are companies that don't act this way, but in my experience, they
Absolutely. (Score:3, Interesting)
The company sees it as easier and less expensive to hire workers, burn them out, refuse to pay for new education, and hire those who have paid for their own training.
Disgusting, but true. The bright side of this phenomenon is that word tends to get around, and after 2-3 years, finds itself tacitly 'blacklisted' among IT workers in th
Re:Once the camel's nose is in the tent..... (Score:3, Insightful)
Along these same lines, I only do self-funded training that will benefit my next employer. Invest in yourself, not in your boss.
Some advice (Score:5, Insightful)
Get your company to front for some M$ premier support. When something comes up you are not sure of or are having a hell of a time resolving, call in the experts at M$.
Except for one or two "M$ Alliance partners" I have always had good luck with M$ premier support. And we have had some major fiascos to unscrew over the years.
And best of all you can consider it free on the job training, don't let the M$ Engineer hang up until you completely understand what was wrong and how to fix it in the future.
Also, document everything you do! Two years from now you will be fighting the same or similar fires you are fighting today. Have a reference to fall back on and help remember what steps you took before that fixed something.
Sounds like you are a lone gun, but a 800 Premier support help number and some documentation may help greatly.
Best of luck with the new responsibilities.
Re:Some advice (Score:2)
I dont get the idea from her description that her company is ready to tackle that nut. I think she is better off picking up a book like Minasi's on W2K3 and spending a few late nights getting comfortable with her servers.
In a word... (Score:2, Informative)
No.
Training (Score:5, Informative)
Every company I've worked for (small, large, huge) have either paid for or reimbursed employees for relevant training.
The norm for the industry? (Score:5, Interesting)
In fact this Sunday I'll be off to Melbourne for another course of a week, the second admin course for HPOV Performance Insight [hp.com]. Without the training I can't imaigine being able to deploy and support this quite complex (and not overly intuitive) product, it would in fact be negligent to have me do so.
I'd reccommend taking your need for education to your managemnt quite firmly, and if they won't budge look elsewhere - not just because of this particular issue, but because such behaviour is indicative of a lack of management vision IMO. If they can't outlay some cash now to train for the future it doesn't sound like they'll have much of a future to worry about - at least not a very interesting high growth one.
Re:The norm for the industry? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:The norm for the industry? (Score:5, Insightful)
Raised some good points (Score:4, Insightful)
You didn't give any detail about how large of a domain is in your hands, and I don't know exactly how much you so far understand or don't understand about Win2K3 administration, but I'll leave that for someone else to post on.
Following this thread, there are three things that you must do in order to succeed in a precarious position such as this:
1) Take a crash course in Win2K3 server, because that's what you're responsible for. Someone might want to start up a thread with recommendations about where to begin.
2) Open up lines of communication between you and the managers. The computer network has become the modern spinal cord of the business workforce, and communication leads to familiarity leads to confidence. In times of storm (i.e. network downtime), your company will have to put their trust in you that they'll make it through.
3) Explain the situation to your managers in a language they understand: the almighty dollar. Tell them the truth. They threw their money in a garbage bin when they trained the wrong person. Failure to invest in proper training for IT staff leads to increased downtime leads to loss of commerce leads to loss of money. Tell them that they will lose money because their investments (e-commerce) right now are not proected (properly trained personnel). It's all about money.
And if nobody listens, I would be very cautious. Find another job that will better support you as you become a better admin, rather than be put in one where, when something serious goes down, you get all the blame. Better to be led away from the fire than to lead someone into it.
Re:Raised some good points (Score:3, Insightful)
Training today means incompetance to lots of folks in IT who consider us janitors that Indians do for $5k-10k a year. With salaries like that we get no respect and we are viewed as a cost center only.
CYA (Score:4, Insightful)
However, you'll probably get the blame if something goes wrong. You might consider looking for another job.
Sounds like my job... (Score:5, Interesting)
Nobody told us how to map home folders, shared network drives, printers, set file permissions, or anything else. Everything I know was learned on my own, however, it was all researched on company time.
They've been pleased with the system so far. It's not too hard to learn.
Re:Sounds like my job... (Score:2, Interesting)
Without qualified administration you are going to do things that you will regret later on. No offense to you, but I've seen this situation played out a million times. Some person with slightly higher than average computer skills gets elected into an admin role, and makes a royal mess that has to be cleaned up later when your company finally breaks down and hires someone competant.
Training (Score:4, Insightful)
We have to get approval before taking a class we want to take, but they are very open to our ideas.
No matter what anyone says, a great strength of a company is its employees. The more we know, and the better we are, the better the company will do. It also has other benefits, as it makes us all feel better about our employer
Small company vs. big company (Score:5, Insightful)
You have to choose what kind of company to work for, essentially.
Having done both, I liked the small company when I was young and had no kids, and now I like the big company.
Funny story. (Score:5, Funny)
Your question implies a misunderstanding.
Re: Funny story. (Score:4, Funny)
> Your question implies a misunderstanding.
Education, personal life, Slashdot - choose two.[*]
[*] Slashdot counts as two choices.
It gets better... (Score:2)
It sounds like you have a good opportunity to shine in the position you are in, and I'd stick it out if I were you... Good Luck!
Your career is your responsibility (Score:2)
Check your laws. (Score:3, Interesting)
But the easy way out for some companies is to state that it is not a job-requirement.
3 points I want to make.
a) get out of there. it sounds like a poison place to work if they pull that kind of shit on you.
b) When you do go for your training, make sure you do ALL studying, preparing on WORK time, do not bring it home with you.
c) To answer your question; No it is not part of the IT climate. Like I said; get out of there.
My Employer (Score:2)
They pay for my training books and my exams and I have worked out with them a number of hours a week where I can have study time, as well as putting in time out of hours too.
I'm currently completing my MCSE & then aim to move onto CISCO & Citrix.
Because we specialise in medicine, at the same time I am learing specialist sof
One word. (Score:2)
Yes.
Depends strongly on employer (Score:2, Insightful)
What you have is really a company with
You know that other guy who left the company? (Score:3, Insightful)
First quarter of the year is a good time to be looking for work, and I know there are jobs out there. I'm looking for one myself. Two of my peers recently quit after finding better jobs. The IT department at the company I work for has awful management, and that's beyond my ability to fix -- you can't fix stupid. Best to just leave and work for someone who you can be productive for, instead of being fed self-induced problem after problem by witless, unsupportive, personnel managers.
Personal life????!!!!! (Score:2)
And you leave work too? You're in the wrong business and you're definitely not a nerd.
Well, it's really up to your employer (Score:2)
My take (Score:2)
Train Yourself. (Score:2)
You should have never put that you were a woman in a Slashdot article.
If the company is large enough, you may luck out and get all the training you'd need. I've known people who have worked for large companies, and they spent about 25% of the year out at one training or another. As for the rest of us, ya, we train ourselves.
After years of working with Cisco equipment, I finally talked a boss-type person into paying my way to a Cisco class. Now I have my CCN
No - it is NOT the defacto standard (Score:2)
The next time something happens, let it sit, and say, gee, wish I'd gotten that training. Or better yet fix it, but take a long time doing it. Then, say it would have taken a lot less time, had I received the training I needed. Find local, or at least close, classes, possibly boot-camp st
Well, I'm out at training this week... (Score:2)
1) Contractual obligations -- working for a service provider can lead to training because of contracts requiring a certain level of certification. HP hired me for a services position and trained me to the level required. They hired me because they knew I was good, and attaining the certification wouldn't be a problem.
2) Managers vs. Bosses mentality -- managers look to enable you to get things done, b
You don't need to consider a different career (Score:3, Interesting)
Some companies are terrific at sending their people to training. I used to work for one of those (IT outsourcer here). When we met with the end-users, they loved us, because we knew what the heck we were doing, and it showed in our work. Alas, due to a tragedy at the highest level, the company founders decided to dismantle the company and sell out.
My new employer is significantly more stingy with the training dollars.
Due to other factors we nearly lost the contract (could lose it still). But - the company has had to shell out a ton of money in an attempt to save the contract, and somewhere the light bulb went on: it isn't worth all this money, if the staff can't out-perform the competition.
So this year, they have paid for time and tuition for about eight people, where for the previous three years we got zilch. Heck - I got my CCNA, and two of us got their CCNP's. :-)
With all this training, and the professionalism that comes from knowing you are a subject-matter expert, morale is tremendously improved. And that is reflected in customer satisfaction.
If your employer won't train you, look for a place that doesn't run the joint like the Keystone Kops.
Your life is not work. (Score:3, Insightful)
If they really think you're responsible for getting training in your off time, even if you're doing self-study, then it's time to get a new job. The market is good now, and you don't have to put up with idiots like this -- especially if the PHBs expect you to develop some instant affinity to Active Directory management. Yuck.
Okay, you asked for it...a female perspective! (Score:5, Insightful)
"My free time is valuable in that it allows me to take care of that which I can't during the day (grocery shopping, dog responsibilities, cleaning, etc."
WHY are you doing all of this grunt work IN ADDITION TO being the primary breadwinner of your household?
What is your husband doing?
Now, if your husband is doing 50%+ of the household work (I say plus, since you're the primary income), that's one thing, and I would argue that a housekeeper/cleaning service would save a lot of your sanity. That's a given. I hire a cleaning service to clean my house. I need to keep myself focused on work that benefits my career instead of busywork.
However, if your husband is not doing at least 50% of the job, that's a whole other can of worms, but one that I'm willing to open because I think it's an important point of discussion.
I read a great article about this the other day. It's called My Radical Married Feminist Manifesto [blogspot.com], and it's a must-read for most women who are primary breadwinners and who are or plan to be married. It's in response to America's Stay-At-Home Feminists [alternet.org], which is in itself an important article to read.
One of the most important points of the article is as follows:
Sounds like a trap that you might have fallen into, and even if you haven't, it's important to be aware of "the butter question" in case you get into this situation in the future.
In case you plan on having kids, I also want to quote this stunning piece (from the same article):
I sincerely hope you haven't fallen prey to the butter question. However, if you have, now is the time to reassess who does the work in your marriage. Do it like you would any other job -- figure out which parts you can outsource (grocery shopping? You can shop online and get groceries delivered. Cleaning the house? You can hire someone) for very lit
Another aspect of her statement (Score:5, Interesting)
If she said the same to her employer/manager I am not suprised she didn't get training.
Training is expensive. Not just the training costs themselves but also because it usually removes the person from work.
Now who would you choose for training? Female A: claims she has a life outside of work, probably going to have a baby anytime now or Male B: Work is his life, can't have babies.
Gee, that is a thoughie. Oh the baby argument is sexist but I am telling you what it is like in the real world. One woman in a company of thousands pulls the being absent for years trick and every woman in the company and every woman in companies where the male managers know a guy in another company where it happened will be tainted with the brush of being unreliable.
Common perception is that women see work as something to do until they get kids. You put them in a position where they are critical and they will just disappear for months. True? Sorta, while I never met any "highlevel" females who did this it sure can mess up a company when the "lowlevel" secretary decides that she has had it and is going to take care of her own baby and no a bunch of middle aged babies. Offcourse the fact that this female was underpaid, undervalued is never mentioned. Just maternity leave is risky. Every male knows this. Sorry.
Then stating also that you value your private life is not a good thing. I am male and even I can't get away with that one. Companies investing thousands of dollars in a person want to be sure they get a willing slave in return. Doesn't matter if that person is going to leave right after completing the training what matters is perception.
And finally the biggest killer in getting training? Just being to damn valuable. I actually been told I couldn't get trained because they couldn't get me the time off needed from projects. So the guys who were "unemployed" got the the training while the guy who was earning the salaries by being outsourced had to buy his own books. Oh and ended up having to be the teacher to the guys just having received a 20.000 guilder training. Grrrr.
Whenever an employer starts talking about training your bullshit meter should spring into the red. I have had several "offers" and it never works out. In the rare occasions where it actually reaches a "planned" stage there is always some project that I am suddenly needed on because the guy that was on it and received lots and lots of training can't hack it. Or left for greener pastures with his shiny new diploma.
Those who can, do. Those who can't get trained and leave the company.
As for the whole butter trap, can you blame men for trying it? Call us sexist pigs if you want, just also remember to call us master and serve us. Resistance is futile. We are male, you will serve us.
If you think it is wrong, just realise that no matter how fucked up men are, women are worse. Just examine yourselve (if your female) what you want in a male partner and then check how many of your wishes contradict themselves. Strong, yet caring. Able to express his emotions but not a cry baby. And the biggest one, "he musn't mind me earning more then him" vs "he better earn a good income". No women respects a man with a low paycheck. The only way for a woman to get the man she wants is to have a harem or someone with a split personality.
Re:Okay, you asked for it...a female perspective! (Score:3, Insightful)
Remember that if you stay home to take care of the kid, this calculation assumes that your salary would have remained the same indefinitely -- an invalid assumption for a career-oriented woman.
But also remember that when making this decision, economics are far from the only consideration. You and your husband also need to consider whether or not you really want your kids to be raised by a nanny. More realistically, for most people the choice is between a stay-at-home mom or dad and day care, not a full
Re:Okay, you asked for it...a female perspective! (Score:3, Insightful)
Raising kids is harder???
Absolutely. Ever done it?
Umm yea, getting up and not having to get dressed, not having to sit in rush hour, not having to stress about possibly getting fired, not having to care what you look like etc...
How about getting up and having to get four kids dressed, fed and out the door to school on time, with all of their stuff? How about having to manage five peoples' schedules, not one, drive everyone to sports, dance, scouts, music lessons, etc., etc.? How about having to st
Re:Okay, you asked for it...a female perspective! (Score:3, Funny)
Re:Okay, you asked for it...a female perspective! (Score:4, Funny)
Or maybe he just means "I can't find the butter, so I'm going to ask for help even though the heinous war-bitch I accidentally married is going to launch into a diatribe about how I'm trying to oppress her and deny her inner goddess. Please, Lord, just let her help me find the butter without telling me that the patri-fascist corporate hegemony trained me to hate women, and why my mother was a sellout enabler for putting up with my insensitive ass for 18 years."
I think that's the more likely explanation: Occam's Razor and all that.
Depends on focus, but mainly yes (Score:3, Informative)
There is experience that will follow you even though technologies change; what I learnt while using DOS is still relevant (creating directories is still something I do); a strong OOP formation in C++ makes Java/C# easier; knowing how pointers work makes a better coder in any language.
Even if experience is a great mistress, everything changes so quickly that continuous self-education I think is a must. Recall all the hot technologies of 1996 - only 10 years ago, a small fraction of your life in the workforce. Almost nobody wrote Java, C#/.NET didn't exist, most dynamic webpages were written in Perl, CSS wasn't there yet, XML was unborn, there were no "Seamless Open Integrated Solution Providers (!)", etc, etc, etc. Now think 1985. 1975. 1965. Somebody born in 1945 and who worked all his life on computers will retire in 2010.
Problem with courses is that they always lag a couple of years behind - they still teach table-based HTML tagsoup... and though you may have a 12-hour intensive session on a subject, you won't be ready to use it before you play on your own time with it.
You don't need to lose your life, I guess spending a couple of hours a week on new technologies is more than enough. You don't have to know everything, just focus on what is created in your field.
The semi-serious answer? "Yes"... (Score:3, Informative)
In return, the employer would reimburse you for your training, and recognize your increased expertise with more money and respect as your skills grew.
The reality is that this sounds like a far-from ideal employer that also got burned last time they paid for someone's certification and then lost them. So you'd probably have to take most of the initiative to advance your skillset. It's worth it - and you can learn a lot of stuff pretty cheaply just with the combination of a couple of middling boxes with plenty of RAM, VMware, and a subscription to the MS Action Pack along with a few books. For a pretty small investment of time and probably a couple of thousand dollars, you can teach yourself enough to know, at the very least, whether you want to stay on the sysadmin side of the business, and at best you can get a great head start on an MCSE (If you want one). It also makes for a very low-pressure way to learn more off-hours when you want to.
Ultimately, if you want to stay in the field and you want to stay with this employer you'll have to show them the folly of their training-miserly ways. Picking up some good AD kung-fu is part of the puzzle - and if need be it'll be a good way to brush up for the job interview with your next employer!
In this business the unfortunate reality is that while you can have a life, it's tough to keep up if you do. I'm lucky now - working for myself I can designate some time for the "keeping up" during the workweek, but when the customers want me they get me, even if I've set up downtime (I do charge a lot more for any off-hours work, and as a result I don't have to deal with things too often outside of the workday at least). So you can have a life - but it helps if you really, really like IT work. In general, though, formal training is something that the employer should provide some time for, but you should be willing to pitch in as well. And the homework and studying is something you're on your own for. It's partly to help in your day-to-day work, but it's also career advancement as well. Both parties gain, so both parties (should) give.
One relevant example from my old career: when I was an IT manager (prior to my old company getting bought and shrunken - part of why I'm on my own now) I had a staff with three techs. I had the training budget to send them all to class if I wanted, but I would only do so if they were willing to spend some of their personal time in pursuit of the goal as well. Typically I'd allow up to a day out of the office per week over a period of a couple of months during that, pay for everything including materials, and pay for the testing. I wouldn't send folks out for things like a 2-week bootcamp or anything of that sort. Was that the most progressive training policy around? No, but it was a reasonable and fair one, balancing my interests (as manager and company representative) with the interests of my employees. Of six people who worked for me during the five years I was there, only one never took us up on the training offer (the person liked their limited function and wasn't really interested in advancing), one left after a year to transfer back to their old department, and the other four went to classes. Of them, I lost one a month after they got their MCSE - they went to a dot-com for over $25k more than I was paying. Neither that nor the dot-com lasted. Go figure.
From the across the desk (Score:5, Interesting)
1. Yes, you are supposed to teach yourself. When I hire, I look for folks who are always learning, all day, every day. "Training" means I have to pay good money to have you absent from work for a week every couple months so that you can come back and spout off about the way X-Corp says it should be done instead of the way that would actually integrate into the system I spent years building. No thanks!
If you need a reference book, I'll buy it for you. If you want to take some night courses in computer science so that you can get a better grounding in the fundamentals then I'll help out in whatever way I can. Just don't waste my time or yours with these so-called training courses.
2. I expect that you'll spend a certain amount of time at work experimenting and gathering knowledge about the software and hardware you use to make my systems run. That's part of the job. You don't have to know everything ahead of time, you just have to know how to figure it out.
If you were a consultant it would be different. I'll pay a consultant twice what I pay you because I expect him to already have the answers when he hits my door. If HE doesn't know, he won't be invited back and if its bad enough he won't be paid. You, as an employee, have more leeway.
3. I expect that you'll spend a certain amount of time at home using similar technologies in the pursuit of your own hobbies. I expect that you'll learn things there that you apply to work just as you learn things at work that you'll apply to your hobbies.
Its not about taking your work home with you; its about getting paid to do work that you enjoy. This work I do was my hobby before it became my career. I enjoy it immensely and I want people around me who feel the same way. If you're just here for the paycheck then I hired the wrong guy. You won't deliver the standard of quality I want because when push comes to shove you just don't care.
Now, if you're like four out of five people out there then having read this you think I'm full of shit. And that's OK. There are plenty of suck jobs out there that will pay you well enough to drive a nice car and vacation at the beach. I wish you all the best in life and may you find your bliss.
But if you're the one out of five that finds the job worth working for its own sake then I want you working with me.
Re:From the across the desk (Score:5, Insightful)
Its not about taking your work home with you; its about getting paid to do work that you enjoy. This work I do was my hobby before it became my career. I enjoy it immensely and I want people around me who feel the same way. If you're just here for the paycheck then I hired the wrong guy. You won't deliver the standard of quality I want because when push comes to shove you just don't care.
I do take my work home because I love it; but I can't say that I'm able to get more than an hour or two of half-assed work done at home before I realize that I'm gonna be burnt out on it the next day.
The most motivated, intelligent and best employees I've worked with have often been those who punch out exactly on time. They love their work, and they'll work obscene hours if needed. But they know what they like to do, and they know how to do it. Pure business for a 9 hour workday, and then a straight line to the door -- they have other activities in their life that are different, interesting, and keep them from being burnt out! In my book, knowing that is a quality judgement. Knowing where your point of diminishing returns is is crucial to being good at your job.
I'm not saying that you're wrong. People who do their job as a hobby also are usually great employees, I'm just saying that the people who have the motivation and will-power to stand up to a boss like you and demand a fine line between work and the rest of their lives also usually have great qualities that you want in an employee. They think that the job is "worth working for its own sake," they just have other things that also are -- and let's be honest here, they're working not only to enrich you, but themselves also. You're not selling yourself short here, so why disrespect other people who demand their fair compensation also?
A company might get built on a one-trick workhorse, but they rarely survive for long on one.
Re:From the across the desk (Score:3, Insightful)
But if you're one of my sysadmins, I don't want to hear that you have a $9.95 netzero account and a windows 98 box. No one who likes the work could tolerate such a setup. I want to hear that you have DSL with static IPs, 256 meg video cards and a blog. I want to hear that geeked o
Re:From the across the desk (Score:3, Insightful)
I want to hear that you have DSL with static IPs, 256 meg video cards and a blog. I want to hear that geeked out with whatever app or game is hot this month.
Maybe when I was 23. I'm 30 now, and my interests have diversified. I've also noticed that precious little of what's hot this month ever lasts past next month.
The only reply... (Score:3, Insightful)
Does you husband do anything?! (Score:4, Insightful)
Primary bread winner with no kids? Holy crap, does your husband do anything or sit around in his underwear all day.
2nd Question: Where can I find a geeky girl like you? It be almost as good as getting married to money:D
Re:Does you husband do anything?! (Score:3, Interesting)
Now, if you only would answer the second question^_^.....
ASK! Don't assume. (Score:3, Insightful)
You obviously didn't sit down with management and get clear about all the responsibilities and outcomes; what's expected on both sides. You need to design a Win-Win solution and get them to buy in for their own benefit. If they pay for it, you should agree to an arrangement that doesn't leave them in the position of throwing money away. If you pay for it, you deserve a big raise and you are under no obligation to stay when another corporation offers you a raise and better benefits. Consider thinking up three alternatives that would satisfy you, and then negotiate the best elements of all of them for a Win-Win solution.
It may require some research to identify the gap between the skills you have and the skills you have to learn. Do it now, before the situation solidifies.
Some organizations will willfully ignore your plight, and before you know it you've spent years in the electronic sweatshop. Know what you want. For clarity, you might use the flowchart and worksheet from Robert Mager's, "Anayzing Performance Problems". http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/1879618176/102-9
There is a modified version of Mager's flowchart in this document: http://www.archertraining.co.uk/Documents/The%20P
Here's a spot that could help you determine your learning goals, although it's aimed at people designing courseware: http://www.bryanhopkins.co.uk/learning_design/lea
Lastly, remember it's your life. The company doesn't care for you like your family does. Nobody ever died and said, "I wish I'd spent more time at the office." (unless they were married to my ex-wife). Your work and the rest of your life need to be in alignment.
These are my opinions, of course, based on 40 years of programming.
Your training, your responsibility (Score:3, Insightful)
Having a company that's willing to pay for training is nice, it really is.
But the reality is its your career and your responsibility. My first job was with a company that gave a little training to programmers. Most of them griped and complained that they weren't getting enough training. Which was almost true, they had enough training to get started, but they weren't getting nearly enough experience. A few of us took some personal initative and developed useful skills. We actually studied things beyond basic CS. When everybody finally bailed or was laid off, those of us who studied got jobs as engineers and systems admins. The others ended up testers
Asking slashdot won't help (Score:5, Insightful)
"I'm currently working as a Microsoft Systems Administrator. Through a series of bungled management decisions, have found myself responsible for a Windows Server 2003 Active Directory network, that I know nothing about (the person who was sent for training was: not the Microsoft point person, as I was; and left the company, soon after the domain upgrade).
Your a Microsoft Adminstrator but you know nothing of AD services. Your on Par with most MCSE/MSVP/PMS/MS whatever certificate holding persons. Your fine, it's just that most of what you need to know is buried in Microsofts SDK documentation.
It doesn't look as though training will be forthcoming, and I've just been moved from the lab, where I was training myself while simultaneously handling the domain. I've got the MCSA/MCSE Training Kit, but recently I've found numerous errors, so many that I was sent a free Press Kit book, for submitting all of the errors I had found. Between management's reluctance to shell out for training, and being moved from the lab, I'm getting the distinct sense that training is something I'm expected to take care of, on my own time. Is this the de-facto standard within IT, and for all jobs within IT?
Is it your career or mangements career? Who trained Bill Gates or Wozniak? Its up to you to figure stuff out. If your into computers why should you care about the platform? Your next job could be Windows/AIX/AS400/Linux whatever. Always be ready for the next career jump.
If so, how do you Slashdot readers keep up with your continuing education, while still maintaining a personal life? Is it naive to try to leave my work at work?"
"I'm especially interested in hearing from the Slashdot readers of the female persuasion, as I have a husband, a dog, and a household to keep up with (no kids by choice, but I wouldn't have the time to take care of them, even if I wanted to).
I'm male. I have a wife and three kids, one dog and one cat and a habitat they all call home. Yes I work overtime most/sometimes. We do family things on the weekends. I'm currently learning OCAML in my private time (I get up early on weekends, have coffee and learn something new). Whats your problem?
I also have the added responsibility of being the primary breadwinner. My free time is valuable in that it allows me to take care of that which I can't during the day (grocery shopping, dog responsibilities, cleaning, etc), and decompress/de-stress in order to prepare for the next day's work. I like tinkering with computers and learning new stuff, but I fear that if I'm expected train myself, outside of work, I may need to consider a different career.
You may need a new significant other if he/she is not willing to share (along with his/hers) in the responsibilties of your lifes vision quest. I have time to play network games with my kids, satisfy my wife, work (+- 50 hours), play with my dog, and clean house when my wife is too busy.
Without trying to sound mean, whats your problem? Is everything supposed to be given to you?
I like computers, its a life choice for me. Maybe you don't. My advice? Use common sense and choose your own path.
Enjoy,
If the company respects its employees (Score:4, Insightful)
If not, it won't.
It is up to you to decide if it is worth staying with a company that shows this kind of disdain and disrespect for you and its employees.
There are plenty of companies that respect their workers and will train them. I strongly recommend finding one.
one strategy... (Score:3, Insightful)
The Active directory is dependent upon one (or two) nodes that may go kaput. In such a situation, nobody can log in. Nobody can do any work. This could cost a day or two of lost productivity plus chaos.
The problem may not be solvable without the assistance of highly trained contractors. "Best practices" demands that we have some sort of backup plan.
We have two options: hire a contractor on the spot or get some support when the emergency happens.
Appendix I. Emergency Assitance 24/7:
Contractor A:
rate: $XXX per hour
Contractor B:
rate: $XXX per hour
Contractor C:
rate: $XXX per hour.
Appendix II. Support fees for Active Directory with x nodes:
Contractor A:
Base: $XXXX
Monthly: $XXX
Contractor B:
Base: $XXXX
Monthly: $XXX
etc.
That should scare the bjesus out of them. Once it is in Memo format, it is on the record and ready for discovery with any law suites. They will act because they are legally obliged to prevent loss to their shareholders and there is a memo floating around that will incriminate them should any disaster happen. Put all that in an attached word doc and in your email mention that you are extremely eager to help rectify this situation in any way possible! If that takes improving my skills, I will do it!
Hope that helps.
Cheers,
-b
A wise saying about training... (Score:3, Insightful)
A man once asked me, "What if I train my employees and they leave?" So I asked, "What if you do NOT train them, and they stay?"
Budget vs. Risk (Score:3, Insightful)
Take heart, this is not simply an IT issue, it is a corporate issue.
Here are some things to ask yourself...
How frequently do employees "rise in the ranks" at your company?
Are new higher-up positions always filled with people off the street?
Does your company have any benefits for continuing adult education? Tuition reimbursement?
How important is this domain that you now control?
What would be the cost to the business if you left?
If your company is blind to employee education as an investment in the business, than you may be able to remind your supervisor that the cost of replacement will be higher than the cost of training. Of course, don't bluff with your job, be prepared to walk if your going to lay it on the table. You don't need to threaten to quit to get the message across. Ultimately, your supervisor will need to answer for their decisions, and if those decisions are costing the company money, they will be in a tough situation. Remember, if you've agressively pursued training, and not recieved it, you have a good stand against a boss who thinks training is your responsibility. Placing unqualified people in important positions is bad management, plain and simple.