How Do Developers Handle Moral Dilemmas? 268
DwightFagen asks: "I'm curious to know how developers in the Slashdot community handle situations in which they are given a project that rubs against their moral borders. I was recently hired as a Flash developer for a design and development company and am just beginning my second project. This particular assignment is to build the video portion of an online magazine. This magazine deals with various topics and is by no means a pornographic site (although some content may border on that), but it seems one of its key tenets is to be untethered by social moral values. Though I do not believe such things should in any way be censored or banned from the internet, I do not wish to actively support something I believe to be an exploitation of human beings. What would you in the Slashdot community do in such a situation? Have any of you dealt with something like this before?"
"For the sake of clarity, I'd like to mention that I'm all for the freedom of expression on the internet and that I do not in any way judge people based on the media they choose to consume.
If this were a clear cut case of pornography, my choice would be simple; but that is not the case. I do still hold myself to certain standards and believe in the value of integrity and I would also like to do work that my family and friends can be proud of (or at least work that I could show them). However, I would also like to keep my job and would not want to put my small company of very nice people in a difficult position (as the deadline is not so far off)."
If this were a clear cut case of pornography, my choice would be simple; but that is not the case. I do still hold myself to certain standards and believe in the value of integrity and I would also like to do work that my family and friends can be proud of (or at least work that I could show them). However, I would also like to keep my job and would not want to put my small company of very nice people in a difficult position (as the deadline is not so far off)."
Simple (Score:5, Insightful)
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> job where such issues are not likely to arise.
That's the crux of the matter. There are approximately one slew of jobs out there that won't be morally questionable, and you'll sleep better at night knowing that you're not enabling nasty behavior. It's a small victory but an important one.
Also, for Flash UI goodness, try ActionStep [actionstep.org]. It's an open source, BSD licensed UI framework for Flash. We use it in indi [getindi.com] and it's good stuff.
Re:Simple (Score:5, Insightful)
>> job where such issues are not likely to arise.
> That's the crux of the matter. There are approximately one slew of jobs out there that won't be
> morally questionable, and you'll sleep better at night knowing that you're not enabling nasty
> behavior. It's a small victory but an important one.
If, that is, the project is indeed just about to begin - the OP seems to imply that is not the case. If it's the case that you've already spent months working on the project, and you're weeks from finishing, I would say you made your choice when you started your willing participation. You took on the job and now have a duty to see it through. This goes double if it, as the OP says, is a small company that will be hurt badly by a late defection.
If you're already deep in the project, finish the job as best you know how - you've already done most of the job, and your fellow workers depend on you to finish what you agreed to do. Then, _after_ the delivery, talk with your boss. Tell him that the latest job made you seriously uncomfortable, and that you are not prepared to do a similar job again. You saw it through because you'd promised to, but you will not repeat the experience.
One of two things will happen: he'll tell you that there's no such job again on the horizon, and he'll keep this in mind if he needs to assign people t o another such thing; or he'll say this is part of the business and you need to accept doing the job to continue working there.
Your Ideas (Score:2)
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I believe that to be a cop-out.
Unless you are of rare talent, your labor is fungible within the company. If you go to another project for the same company, then another engineer who would have worked on that project can now do the work you found to be distasteful. But you are still enabling the company to produce the distasteful work.
Either you are OK with being a contributor to the work product that you find distasteful or not. You can quit, or you could d
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Boy, I just want to say, and I suppose this is opinion, that there just isn't a less ethically s
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What's marketing porn? Is that like Bill Gates[1] stripping?
[1] former head of the largest marketing company in the world
Submitter already made his decision (Score:2)
Re:Simple (Score:5, Interesting)
I was caught in that situation at a video game company. The company had a Team Day T-shirt design contest for the employees that my supervisor managed to win. Since my co-workers were upset that someone in management won the contest with a blatent rip off of the XBox logo and I was taking a business ethics class at the time, I notified HR that they mismanaged the contest. HR dropped the T-shirt design and asked marketing to come up with a design based on recent titles being released for that year. My supervisor was not a happy camper when the shirts were handed out and his team was overwhelmly defeated at the Team Day events (he blamed HR for stacking his team with all the women -- that's because the women didn't hate him as much as everyone else). The next day I got a verbal warning for not being devoted to the job (i.e., the business ethics class), a verbal warning for insubordination when I documented a disagreement with him concerning my project (which got the previous supervisor in trouble because I document everything), and a prep talk about doing the job his way or taking the highway. Since my mom died of breast cancer three months before and I was alreay making a career transition, I had no problem handing in my three-week notice to complete my project before leaving. My supervisor went on to sack the two lead testers that I trained since they documented everything as well. The company is now on the verge of bankruptcy and I'm a lot happier making more money working as a help desk specialist for only 40 hours a week. Who says ethics doesn't pay?
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Must be some new definition of 'only'. That's a bad week for me.
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Why would I want to work for a company that was already heading into bankruptcy? I could've accept another position in the company by moving to a different state and then get can
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Morals versus Flash development? (Score:5, Funny)
PS: Links to the boobies plz!
Well, for those of us who care about REAL morals (Score:3, Insightful)
Sucks, but its so.
Re:Well, for those of us who care about REAL moral (Score:2, Insightful)
As an aside, "ending up like RMS" would hardly be anything to be ashamed of. The world would be a lot better off if more of us had the courage to take his route.
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Sure you do, it's just that they're a bit
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Shhhh, do you want people to know what's in dog food?
TFA: "How do developers handle moral dilemas?" - The same way "real" people do, principles are expensive, use them sparingly.
Re:Well, for those of us who care about REAL moral (Score:5, Insightful)
There are worse things than nudity, obviously. Including twits who've boiled a fairly nuanced area worthy of concern down to a false dichotomy featuring a vague glittering good and a gross oversimplification.
The OP took some care to show that he doesn't expect everyone else to share his particular standards and he's willing to respect the rights of others to produce and publish things he doesn't want to be involved in. His question isn't about whether YOU think porn is good or evil, it isn't about whether YOU think it's more important to write letters for Amnesty International or keep adult vids out of the hands of local kids. His question is about how to handle things when your employer wants you to participate in a project that crosses whatever your ethical boundaries may be. Maybe that's making a porn directory, maybe it's writing marketing copy for Exxon. If you want to contribute to the discussion, stepping up the ladder of abstraction and providing some advice on grappling with the situation would be a better alternative to criticizing the OP's or anyone else's particular moral values.
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The irony is that (so far) the "borg instinct" has resulted in a system where after 10,000yrs we cannot even agree to stop throwing high tech rocks at each other.
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And I think it should be up to him to choose his morals, not you, what do you reckon. Maybe it is gay porn? Yeah, that made you think.
Now that's a cheap cop-out (Score:2)
I like to think you don't mean that. Because it would be a really shitty (and probably really short) life if everything was free-for-all as long as it's below the level of 1 billion people enslaved.
_Real_ morals exist
It's easy, first take the money (Score:3, Funny)
Behold: http://newbirth.org/ [newbirth.org]
Watch out for H-1Bs (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:Watch out for H-1Bs (Score:4, Interesting)
In the end, I convinced him that what he was asking me to do was dumb, and that outsourcing sucks in the long term. (I couldn't ply to morality, the man had none, but he'd listen to reason)
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What? (Score:3, Interesting)
Apparently they are not breaking laws of any kind, so what really is the problem?
Is your morale really that much tighter than the rules imposed on you by one of the tightest legal systems in the world?
And exploitation? What?
All people involved in whatever you are doing, have made their own choise whether to participate or not. And they probably even get paid for it. Don't impose your values on everyone. If the rest is okay with what is happening, why can't you simply accept it?
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But it does sound like he has access to copious amounts of softcore at work.... so what is his problem again?
Re:What? (Score:4, Insightful)
Apparently they are not breaking laws of any kind, so what really is the problem? Is your morale really that much tighter than the rules imposed on you by one of the tightest legal systems in the world?
Wow, what a way to avoid answering an honest question... you know, it is possible to disagree with the law sometimes, as flawless as it might seem. Say, for argument's sake, you've been asked to work on a web site that praises the Guantanamo Bay detainment camp [wikipedia.org] for being so humane. Is it not possible someone may object to such an assignment? What would you tell them?
Re:What? (Score:5, Informative)
And now on to my advice to the questioner. A couple of years ago I accepted a job doing web work for a porn company. Now there are two mindsets that came crashing into conflict for me - that porn inherently is harmful to participants (namely, the women participants) and women in general (encouraging objectification, use as sexual objects, etc. etc.) versus the idea that those who get involved willingly and knowledgably accept and agree to what they are about to get paid for.
What did I do?
I did my job, and accepted that while I would certainly never choose to participate, at least all of the work that we produced was of (relatively) good taste, everyone was verified to be of legal age, and generally, everyone seemed to be having fun. So, I set aside my judgements and decided that everyone has a right to choose what they do in their life, what they consume, and what morals they uphold. I found that the work didn't bother me, and I never felt that my own morals where being compromised. Objectification is everywhere, in everything we do. If you can honestly say that you consume no product or service that exploits other humans in any way (sex appeal, sweatshops, whatever the case may be - exploitation comes in many forms), then maybe you can ride away from this project or your job on a high horse. Not to be harsh, but seriously, I really think you just need to relax a bit. The world is a crazy place, and some people are quite proud to bare their bodies for art, sex, or science.
Talk to them (Score:2)
I would suggest that the easiest way to get some perspective would be to talk to the pornstars. Find out if they like what they do, what kind of other choices they have if they don't... Ask them if they have any moral issues. Ask them what they think you should do.
Personally, I find the Flash more offensive. Even pornography can be done tastefully and ethically, but Flash is
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And exploitation? What? All people involved in whatever you are doing, have made their own choise whether to participate or not.
This could be something like the paparazzi who follow around celebrities and intrude upon their lives, photographing and taking videos of their every moment not allowing them any semblance of privacy. Certainly not illegal (unfortunately) but those people all too often have not made their own choice about whether or not to participate. In my books, that qualifies as exploitation.
Moo (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately for the logic based sector of society, they lack basic skills in value judgements.
Value judgements have three outcomes (unlike logic's two), they are "greater than", "less than", and "equal to".
Assign a weight to you're self-appointed moral. Call that x. Now, assign a value to having a job. Call that y.
1) x > y
2) x < y
3) x = y
1) If x > y, quit. Pure and simple.
2) If x < y, deal with it. We can't have everything.
3) If x = y, keep the status quo. Don't accept a new job of this, but keep any current ones.
With practice these jusdgements become easier (and more refined), and so does assigning values. But, unlike logic, these are not objective facts agreed upon by all logical people, these are subjective values that change by the person. And rightly so.
Oh yeah, let me be the first to welcome your to the real world. It takes a little trying, but i think you'll like it here. You've made a good first step.
How to handle moral delimmas? (Score:5, Funny)
Re:How to handle moral delimmas? (Score:5, Funny)
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You don't have HBO?
Question yourself (Score:5, Insightful)
Due to a traumatic event I witnessed as a child, I promised myself always to follow my moral principles. This turned out to be a surprisingly good strategy in all situations of my life. One thing however is absolutely essential: that you question those moral principles. They might be wrong. Some of them are wrong. Find them, weed them out.
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Oh, man. Thanks. I haven't had a laugh that good in weeks.
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One thing however is absolutely essential: that you question those moral principles. They might be wrong. Some of them are wrong. Find them, weed them out.
-1, Redundant! We already have plenty of comments telling him to stop developing Flash.
Talk to your boss? (Score:2)
Go read some Nietzche and Sartre (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't live by axioms alone. Thou shalt not bear false witness, sayeth God. But would you then turn Anne Frank over to the authorities when the Gestapo comes knocking? Thou shalt keep the Sabbath. A hungry baby knows nothing of why you won't buy milk on Saturday.
Sartre gets to the heart of the axiom problem. There are simply too many variables to declare some certain action (a categorical imperative) to be the Right Thing. You eventually get to the point where you are now, confused about how to proceed.
Maybe there isn't anything inherently good or evil. That's Nietzche's point. Blessed are the meek, we hear. But aren't they simply damned in this lifetime? Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness. To what end? Strength, pride, and a burning desire to do something are the hallmarks of Nietzche's 'Superman'.
You sit here twiddling your thumbs hoping that someone will bust down your morals and help you see the light. That's sadly pathetic. If you don't want to do the job because you find it disagreeable, then don't do it. If you think you can live with yourself and your misgivings, then do it. Asking others for help in this situation only makes us culpable when you end up violating your own morals and feel guilty about it. I'm not sure we want to be your serpent to your Eve.
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'Don't murder' works pretty well.
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Wonderful axioms if you wish to emulate sociopaths.
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Not at all. He pursued flawed axioms to their inevitable conclusions. A good illustration of why it's so important to examine any proposed axiom thoroughly.
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Glad to hear it.
I think you've got that backwards - it's restrictivism that doesn't work.
Think about it. The least restricted areas are always the most productive, whether by area we're talking about a neighborhood, a country, or an industrial sector. The polities that most thouroughly purge libertarian principles - the soviet union being a prominent example - collapse under their own inability to work.
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'Do not initiate force' seems to fit that bill rather well. It's a basic principle understood across cultures, across social strata, by children, adults, and the aged. In simple terms, don't start shit.
From that axiom your questi
Re:Go read some Nietzche and Sartre (Score:4, Funny)
With the following exceptions of the American Revolution, World War II, and the Star Wars Trilogy.
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Even better: Dostoevsky & Kierkegaard (Score:2, Informative)
But while we're discussing Nietzsche, why not read his Genealology of Morals: [mala.bc.ca]
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Yes you can. They just need to be thought out, figured out where applicable, and conflicting axioms must each be known in their place.
Thou shalt not bear false witness, sayeth God. But would you then turn Anne Frank over to the authorities when the Gestapo comes knocking? Thou shalt keep the Sabbath. A hungry baby knows nothing of why you won't buy milk on Saturday.
There's another moral about keeping life, which in general is considered to have more importance then other axiom
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You are right: the situation is clear-cut. The OP tries to make it sound muddy, bu
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At what point in the OP's explanation of the situation did he suggest that he was religious? Having read a good deal of both of those philosophers, they both te
thats easy. (Score:2, Interesting)
Grow some balls (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously. If you're not going to stand up for your beliefs, why bother having them?
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If he's skilled enough to get one job, he's skilled enough to get another. There's no reason for a Flash developer (or any person with all their fingers and toes, and an IQ above 90) to not find some way to provide food and shelter for themselves. However people believe it will happen, so people do stupid things like take the first job offer, or selling their morals for money.
Not only should he quit, he should think about donating the money he's already made to a charity
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However now I own the company, so fuck you.
Someone doesn't like working for me, they can quit too.
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Yes, I can see such words of widom and irrefutable logic being requirements for owning a business.
And personally, selling old computer parts you swipe from work doesn't really qualify as a business.
Oh please (Score:3, Insightful)
So whatever "it's good to not have morals" crusade you're on, I'm sure you can find less lame ways to support it than baseless "selling old computer parts you swipe from work doesn't really qualify as a business" accusations.
Maybe you just really don't have morals. Good for you. By all means, stick to that, then. But some of us do and still have a good job anyway. Some of u
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It would look good if I were considering hiring you. If you refuse to do unethical things that your boss tells you to do, I can be pretty sure you won't do similar unethical things on your own.
Nowhere is this so clearly illustrated... (Score:2, Funny)
In related news, 18 out of 12 slashcode developers believe the fundamental axioms of mathematics are oppressive and immoral.
My two cents... (Score:3, Interesting)
On the other hand, when I found myself in a moral dilemma seeing one account executive stealing supplies, software, and property from the company, an account supervisor rigging a winning spot in a contest for her niece that our company ran for a large restaurant chain, I made the choice to stand up and speak out. While they thanked me for speaking up, and "looked into the matter", it became clear that I wasted my breath.
That is until I was "downsized", and a couple of months later so was the thief. The account supervisor got her hands slapped and was taken off that account.
So it's really your choice. For me, I'd love to go back and tell myself to STFU and keep my head down.
That's my two cents.
-Goran
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Re: job is a job (Score:2)
That looks like an interesting idea, to just "do the job" and (presumably) "leave the responsibility and conscience to the boss". If the boss is moraly consistent (and compatible with his employees) and he is also responsible, than such job attitude may work.
Problem is, some bosses are neither responsible (they ussusaly are but only to themselves) nor moraly sound. And if employees "just do the job" for such boss, this one boss drags a lot of such employees down with him to the level, where th
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We ALL must compromise our morals sometimes. Living in a country with 300 million people, and living on a planet with 6.5 billion people, means that not all people are going to share our moral views 100%, and if you don't compromise to a certain extent, you are alienating yourself from the vast majority of people. At some point the issue becomes so small, that it becomes unreasonable and you are just being a jerk.
An example: If pe
That's a tough one, but I'll give it a shot (Score:2)
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Over here (UK) you're employer would end up in court pretty darned quick for a stunt like that.
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Are you okay with slavery?
How about sex slavery?
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I found it pretty freaking slick at how you conflated economics and morality - but the more I think about it, the more I believe one doesn't follow the other.
I'm not the previous poster, but I certainly think economics is a tool that can be used to accomplish some moral or ethical goal. It is as related to ethics as say, law is.
but let's say you were right - then you are basically advocating communism of sorts, or some sort of equal distribution of wealth, and I just can't buy that only on the account
By posting access passwords on slashdot (Score:2)
Theories of ethics (Score:4, Insightful)
Textual: you follow what your holy book says. There has just got to be some Bible verse against Flash.
Compassionate: you ask whether people are hurt or helped by your actions. Will the company be better off? The customer? The customer's customers? Start thinking about those last and you have a reason not to work on tobacco ads, for example.
Reciprocal: you follow the Golden Rule. What would you hope for if you were one of the parties affected by your decision?
Foreseeable consequences: what will follow from your actions?
Arbitrary crap: you grew up around people who thought something was immoral, like say interracial marriage, and you've never checked the idea against any kind of principle. This is the most common approach.
Whatever standard you use, there has to be a set of priorities to go with it. You're using the job to support your family. You'd have to quit if the place were kidnapping the homeless and turning them into Soylent Green, but for much else you have to balance against your family's well being. You have talked this over with your wife??
Are these formal at all? (Score:2)
Textual is Arbitrary Crap. How many people quote the Bible where it supports their beliefs, but ignore it where it contradicts them? How many people who deeply believe in the Bible have ever questioned it?
Compassionate is a function of Reciprocal. Or possibly vice versa, but this one's easy to figure out. You want people to be helped, not hurt, because as a person, you'd want to be helped (not hurt).
Reciprocal is a function of Forseeable consequences, as well as pure hedon
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Relatively few, I'd say. Most people simply ignore it altogether. Of course, you'll drag out the same old arguments about wearing clothes made of mixed fibers, and when some Christian explains it all to you yet again, you'll ignore him and continue saying that it's selective and self-serving. However, even if you're right and most people do selectively quote the bible, you
More information? (Score:2)
In general, though... You have to live with yourself a lot longer than you'll be at any given job, in general.
How easy is it for you to find work? (Score:3, Insightful)
However, if you don't think that you can find equitable work else where and are not willing to take a cut in pay, I strongly suggest you do what the rest of us do and play ball until such a time comes when you can afford to move on.
Professionalism vs Craftsmanship (Score:3, Interesting)
If your a professional you wont let your beliefs get in the way of your work.
I get into programming about 20 years ago, i love programming, i expect to always have a project on the go (and maybe one day i will finish one), but its taken me this long to understand that i dont want to be a professional programmer.
Professionalism means that you have to be prepared to compromise your own goals so the teams goals are achieved.
Im way too passionate about programming to be a professional, i hate it when im expected to "finish" a project and move on, to have to give up on all the ideas i have floating around in my head... i care about quality.
I now consider myself to be a craftsman, and i suspect a lot of open source programmers are this way inclined.
If open source was about professionalism, programmers wouldnt care about peer review, they wouldnt argue about coding style, or languages, they would just care about adding the next feature.
A craftsman/artist wants perfection, a professional just wants to finish...
Your first mistake... (Score:5, Insightful)
Your first mistake was taking a job that would put you in this position. For future reference, I suggest telling prospective employers that you have personal reasons for not working on so-called "adult-oriented" content like this. You need to say this up front or you will end up surprising them (and not in a good way) when it comes up later. Admittedly, if you say this in a job interview, you are likely to lose some possible opportunities, but your convictions are nothing more than vapor if you don't actually stand by them.
Oh, the other thing about convictions: if you are plagued with regret after you make a decision based on your convictions, there is a chance that they weren't really convictions after all, but simply some kind of moral costume you put on to help yourself feel better. Test and refine your convictions as time passes, but don't regret them: you have to believe them fully.
I was recently offered more than five times my current hourly rate to be the lead developer on a big Flash and video-intensive web site for a new casino. I have moral objections to casinos, so I turned it down. The money would have been very handy, but I still have to live with my own conscience. I'm sure someone else has picked up the job. I have zero regrets about my decision. I simply refuse to be associated with casinos and all the social problems they lead to (dramatically increased bankruptcy rates, violent crime, auto thefts, larceny, substance abuse, suicide rates, etc.).
Donate (Score:2)
I find that the best solution (and one that lets me sleep
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I do agree that excessive alcohol usage is bad, but doesnt excessive *anything* lead to very bad things?
I know many Christians who think alcohol is the "demon drink", so Im not attacking Islam... just all the religions that have this belief.
working for a scumbag (Score:2)
You talk about porn.. (Score:2)
moral agreement, or just morals? (Score:2)
Is it morally acceptable for a Republican to work with or for Democrats? Sure it is. There should be no problem working with people who have different viewpoints, so long as they stay within the bounds of civility, as in, no criminal, abusive, or unfair acts. Turn the question around, and ask if they should terminate you because you support causes they oppose, with the money they pay you. Not only should they not, we have these equal opportunity laws that forbid discrimination based on creeds.
Everyone
Social specialization, pornography as a profession (Score:2)
The only reason sex is considered more of a problem than violence and guns is due to the weird mo
Christian view of sex (Score:2)
This represents a fundamental misunderstanding of the Christian view. Sex is GOOD! As a Christian, let me tell you that I enjoy sex a great deal, and praise God for creating something so pleasurable!
and should only be done within marriage
This is true - because God knows that the best place to express sex and share this level of intimacy is inside marriage. everything else may feel good, but it's merely a cheap imitation of
Have a spine fitted (Score:2)
I've turned down plenty of work because it didn't fit with my politics.
And I've done plenty of work that didn't fit with my politics.
Your choice is similar.
MAKE IT YOURSELF.
What grounds your principles? (Score:2)
If your moral principles are grounded in a love of God, then that presumably trumps and pleasure se
Moral Standards can lead to hard choices. (Score:2)
Sometimes the cost of living up to your moral
There's an easy way (Score:2)
So... (Score:2)
Would you have invented the internet with the same believes? Television? Telephone? Photography? Printing Press? Alphabet? Art? Speach?
Look, man has been painting about naked women (and more) since the dawn of man, and writing about sex since the invention of writing.
Any technology can be used to do things that we disagree with, and that is just something that we all have
Say no more! (Score:2)
I'm curious to know how developers in the Slashdot community handle situations in which they are given a project that rubs against their moral borders. I was recently hired as a Flash developer
Woah there, fella. No need to continue. Get out as soon as you can.
Salvor Hardin said... (Score:2)
I once totally trashed a company. Completely. Utterly. 50 employees on the street.
I completely destroyed the data on the central computer and the backups.
I was asked to make the company violate the election financing act (Companies cannot contribute to political parties). They wanted me to stealthily add to the payroll (so employees would not notice) the maximum contribution permissible for each employee, in their na
worst moral dilema (Score:2)
After getting layed off in the bust, with little experience, I found a job working as a developer for a local technology company. The boss was something of a prick and he was very into controlling and monitoring things. Anyways, he had some very aggressive filters installed on our proxy. Like all filtering software, this software sucked. It didn't block a lot of what it was supposed to and it did block a lot of what it s
SPEAK UP! (Score:2)
This happened recently to me. Little bits of a project started coming down the pipe at me, and it was simply expected that I'd play along. I could see that it was going to develop into my next full-time project, and it was something I could not, in good conscience, contribute to.
I e-mailed my manager explaining my objection. Mind you, I didn't say that anybody else should not be working on it - I spoke on my own behalf, as an individual whose conscience wouldn't allow him
What to do... what to do... (Score:2)
Well, you can stop working for SuSE for starters...
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- where he's from
- what the background check turns up
If he's from a US allied country, and the background check doesn't turn up anything bad, he'll get a clearance just like any other US citizen who doesn't have something in their past that makes them look dodgy for clearance.