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Comments: 326 +-   Will Apple Follow Microsoft's Lead to Restrictive DRM? on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:10AM

Posted by Cliff on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:10AM
from the inevitable-or-avoidable dept.
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Steve Ryan asks: "The direction Microsoft are taking with Windows (for example, the DRM issues in Vista) have led me to believe Windows will soon be an OS which controls the user, rather than the other way round. I like XP, and I find it stable, but I do not want to upgrade to an OS (Vista) which is restrictive. This leaves me with either Linux or Mac OS X. I like Linux, but it may not work with my laptop, so I don't really want to risk it. OS X seems nice. I spend most of my time writing documents and surfing the web, so it should handle everything I want, and I would be happy to buy a lovely MacBook Pro. This leaves me with my question: Will Apple follow Microsoft's lead and implement a DRM loving policy?"
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  • What--Apple hates DRM now? Look at everything on iTunes. Look at Job's role as largest shareholder in Disney--why would he not want to use DRM to protect his property? If you want to see the DRM of Apple, just buy a movie from Apple (like "Cars"). Then try to burn it to DVD. Or try to play it on a PSP or Creative Zen:Vision or your favorite Archos PMP. Yeah, it would suck if Apple started adopting DRM.

  • Apple already loves DRM (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Clockwurk (577966) * on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:23AM (#17384554) Homepage
    Every intel mac ships with a "trusted" computing module and apple uses DRM on every tune or movie they sell. You can't burn itunes tv shows to DVD, you can't transfer music from an ipod to a computer (easily), you can't transfer DRMd songs to any player but an ipod.

    Anyone that thinks Apple is better than Microsoft needs to take a history lesson. Apple acts exactly like microsoft, but is too small to be effective. Hell, the only reason we use PCs today and not macs is Steve Jobs wanted the whole computer pie and wouldn't settle for just controlling the operating system.

    • There's DRM and then there's DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Wesley Felter (138342) <wesley@felter.org> on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:33AM (#17384608) Homepage
      I think this thread boils down to a single issue: Microsoft's "Genuine Advantage" program is threatening to remotely self-destruct people's computers. Apple isn't.
            • Unfortunately, non-spike-lined sexbot vaginas were patented by another company. Better hope Apple is willing to risk the lawsuit.

    • Re:Apple already loves DRM (Score:5, Insightful)

      by Baricom (763970) on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:37AM (#17384640)
      There are alternative explanations. The content industry wouldn't release anything to Apple without DRM protection, and the only way TPM has been used so far is to make sure OS X only runs on Apple hardware. I'm not giving them an out, but these behaviors seem benign, relatively speaking. Consider the alternative:
      • Make sure you don't misplace your product key, in case you need to reinstall later.
      • Cross your fingers when Microsoft phones home during activation to discover whether you're worthy of using Windows.
      • Cross your fingers again as Microsoft checks whether you're a criminal every time you download patches.
      • Cross your fingers yet again as you wonder whether end-of-life means your purchase will no longer activate.
      • Remember to opt out of Windows Media Player's helpful tendency to DRM-infect files from CDs you rip yourself.
      • Consider whether PlaysForSure or Zune DRM is more likely to be future-proof.
      I don't deny that Apple might behave this way given the majority market share, but I think they're a long way from reaching that. If the tables are turned in ten years, I'll just do what I did to the Republicans: switch to the better candidate, even if that means Microsoft.

    • A few mistakes in your post (Score:5, Informative)

      by 2nd Post! (213333) <gundbear&pacbell,net> on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:49AM (#17384724) Homepage
      1) Apple DRM has nothing to do with moving music off an iPod. The music is stored in a hidden folder and can be copied off trivially.
      2) Apple DRMed songs can trivially (in iTunes) be burned to a CD, opening up to a world of CD players and DVD players. If you choose to re-encode again you can transfer to additional devices other than iPods.
      3) Apple has never acted like Microsoft. Microsoft has raised Windows license fees or withheld licenses from companies promoting or developing competing technologies (OS/2 and Netscape). The closest is when Apple withdrew licenses from clonemakers exactly because they did not want to only sell operating systems. Microsoft has also developed competitive technologies rather than endorsing existing solutions so they could extract more control (WMA instead of AAC, WMV instead of MPEG4, Direct3D instead of OpenGL, MTP instead of UMS, etc)

      Maybe your point (Apple is a corporation, not an entity) would be better made as, "Don't trust Apple to be good by you unless it also helps them as well".

    • Apple already tolerates DRM (Score:5, Informative)

      by SuperKendall (25149) on Thursday December 28 2006, @01:18AM (#17384876)
      Every intel mac ships with a "trusted" computing module

      Theonly use of which is for OS X to recognize it is running on Apple hardware - it IS NOT USED to prevent you from running Linux or any other OS, or adding your own OS X drivers, as Microsoft had been talking about.

      and apple uses DRM on every tune or movie they sell.

      That you can easily remove - even the video you can simply re-record with any number of video screen capture software. This is mandated by content providers, not Apple - remember Apple is the one that brought DRM to this loose state. Microsoft is the one giving you protected video paths with Vista.

      You can't burn itunes tv shows to DVD

      You can if you simply copy it.

      you can't transfer music from an ipod to a computer (easily)

      Since iTunes recognizes ID3 tags it is childs play to copy a whole directory of music from any iPod you can mount into iTunes, and have the music all show up.

      you can't transfer DRMd songs to any player but an ipod.

      But you can also choose to move the songs to other formats that lack DRM and move them that way. There is an out.

      People like you have been blasting Apple for DRM use for years when in fact Apple is the company that is slowly backing studios out of DRM use. the MP3 sales trial recently on Yahoo would never have been done if Apple had not locked up the popular use of DRM with Apple instead of an indsutry controlled company such as Microsoft.

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by RAMMS+EIN (578166)
        ``an indsutry controlled company such as Microsoft.''

        Ey? Microsoft is an industry-controlled company? If there is _one_ company that doesn't have to care what anyone else says, or even dictate where the industry goes, it has to be Microsoft.
    • Idiot. iTunes 7 allows you to do that EASILY. Get a clue.

      "And if you've got iTunes Store purchases you'd like to move from one computer to another, iTunes syncs in reverse, too -- from your iPod back to any authorized computer." [apple.com]

      You can authorize 5 computers. Do some research. Stop the FUD.
    • You are not correct - newer intel macs no longer ship with TPM due to cost reasons. This really made some people unhappy because the TPM can do some interesting crypto things, like generating true random numbers. Someone did an analysis and wrote some software, it is here:

      http://www.osxbook.com/book/bonus/chapter10/tpm/ [osxbook.com]

      The important take aways are:
      - TPM on Macs are NOT used to tie OSX to Apple hardware
      - TPM module is not even used by OSX in any capacity
      - TPM is user-controllable/hackable to perform what y
      1. Apple doens't use the TPM hardware [osxbook.com]. Unlike Mac OS X, Linux actually does include drivers for this hardware, as far as I know (Quote Linus [forbes.com]: "A lot of commercial companies want to do some really bad things with DRM. So people dislike DRM and want to make it harder to do. But the silly thing is that DRM really is just technology, and like most everything else, the badness comes not from the technology, but from what you use it for. There are actually valid uses of the exact-same technology, even if it ends u
  • IMHO, Apple would be a fool to consider tighter DRM. A significant portion of the (increasing) user base is switching to avoid Windows. Every step Apple makes toward emulating Windows flaws is one less way they can claim to "think different."

  • Umm.... (Score:5, Interesting)

    by rolfwind (528248) on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:34AM (#17384614)
    This leaves me with either Linux or Mac OS X. I like Linux, but it may not work with my laptop, so I don't really want to risk it.


    And OS X will? (Legally?)

    Anyway, Linux or BSD is guaranteed freedom while OS X you have to trust a company. It's that simple. We can analyze Apple all we want but in the end it is a company that can decide to turn one way or the other at any moment. Not so with your average Linux distro.

    Or play both sides and get a Mac and dual-boot. Keep your files in open or standard formats so you can easily move to other OSes.
  • The day i notice it I'm selling my apple stock for redhat, and installing linux on my macbook. Fuck em.
  • Here's my take on them:

    Vista: it's okay (as of RC2). I'm not feeling the DRM though, and will probably remove it from my system in the near future.

    OSX: This is what I'm using now. With Parallels/Boot Camp/VMWare, you should be able to use anything that doesn't have an OSX port.

    Linux: I really wouldn't use it for a desktop machine. At least not yet. Of course, if you're going to use it for development and not for typical office stuff, it'd probably work perfectly for you.

    Anyways, out of those three, I prefer

  • Not M$ (Score:4, Insightful)

    by Zebra_X (13249) on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:49AM (#17384722)
    Apple has led, is leading and will continue to lead the DRM future. Intel is close behind because they created HDCP, the hardware level copying mechanism in use by HDCP compliant HDMI ports in current generation high-end monitors and televisions.

    Intel Macs now come with the beloved Trusted Computing module installed, and while most say that it is not used now, Apple is the only one deploying it widely to their user base. It will get used in the future.

    Apple is now, and will continue the move to a media platform. Such a move is going to require very tight control over the content that is deployed to the platform. The only way that Apple can assure content providers that their content is "safe" is by deploying draconian measures to be sure that we cannot really "own" the content that we "borrow" from the rights holders, be it movies, songs, TV shows or newspapers.

    Microsoft has less of interest in owning your content, sure they have to assure content providers that their content will not be used in improper ways - however their OS isn't targeted specifically to content creation and consumption. In reality, Microsoft can't really compete with Apple on completeness of media offering because they would be sued for anti-trust violations (and have).

    While Microsoft has incorporated HDCP support for high-def content, the drives to play this content for pc's still range in the 000's. You can be sure when Apple starts to ship macs with blue-ray drives that HDCP will become a requirement. You also won't notice that it's there because with exception for the macpro and mac mini there is little need for external displays.

    Interestingly, blue ray-discs may be encoded to play high def content via HDMI only at the studios discretion. Given that this capability exists today, Microsoft is not responsible for the movement to protect high def content.

    To be clear, MS is not leading this charge. It has been built into the blue-ray standard, the hardware connections, and boards of a wide range of devices. This is a ground up attack at our ability to move content around. The MPAA and RIAA figure if you make the hardware aware of the content, then you can police the content better. They might be right... only time will tell.

    If M$ does not deploy support for these standards then we will not have the ability to watch any of the content. The same will happen on OS X except that it will be less apparent due to the lack of HDCP compatibility issues across the most popular macs (MacBook, MacBook Pro). Apple will provide a better "user experience" because they control both the hardware and software that they sell to customers. Of course, Microsoft will look like the bad guy because they have little control over the hardware that ends up in consumers homes.

    • Re:Not M$ (Score:4, Informative)

      by dangitman (862676) on Thursday December 28 2006, @03:24AM (#17385356)

      Microsoft has less of interest in owning your content, sure they have to assure content providers that their content will not be used in improper ways - however their OS isn't targeted specifically to content creation and consumption.

      That's pretty delusional. Firstly, Microsoft runs a music store, and has been desperately trying to control media on the desktop with Windows Media Player and the Media Center edition of their OS. And their OS is geared towards consumption of products and content. Like Microsoft applications, and third-party applications and games.

      Microsoft doesn't just want to own your media - they want to oen your whole system and have the ability to shut your OS down remotely. Hell, Microsoft even tries to put DRM on your pre-existing content - for example, if you rip a CD with Windows Media Player. And their "PlaysforSure" DRM is way more restrictive than Apple's.

      Just because Microsoft hasn't been particularly successful with their plans, doesn't mean they aren't trying.

    • Macs have no TPM! (Score:4, Informative)

      by LKM (227954) on Thursday December 28 2006, @06:03AM (#17385880) Homepage

      Geez, your post reads like you were just making it up as you went along, yet it got modded 5. Fascintaing.

      1. While some Intel Macs had TPM hardware, it was never used, not even for making sure Mac OS X ran on a Mac. More recent Macs don't even include it anymore (much to the chagrin of some people who actually did make use of it) [osxbook.com]
      2. Unlike Mac OS X, Linux does include drivers for TPM by default
      3. If Apple's DRM is so draconian, how come it's the most lenient out there?
      4. Nothing that Apple has ever done can't compare to what MS is doing. I mean, even remotely. It's not only not the same league, it's not even the same sports they're playing. [schneier.com] Sorry, but MS very much is leading this charge.

  • Wake up (Score:4, Insightful)

    by spiritraveller (641174) on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:49AM (#17384726)
    Don't expect Apple or any other proprietary systems vendors to protect your freedom. They're not interested in your freedom.

    They are very interested in making and maintaining sweetheart deals with studios and record companies, so that they can be the middleman who sells the movies and music that those other companies put out.

    Only open systems can be expected to protect your freedom. Proprietary systems are by definition intended to take away your freedom to do as you wish with them. They are designed to remove your ability to modify them as you see fit. Your freedom is only guaranteed when source is available. Anything else is just a hope and a prayer.

  • The short answer (Score:3, Insightful)

    by westlake (615356) on Thursday December 28 2006, @12:59AM (#17384770)
    This leaves me with my question: Will Apple follow Microsoft's lead and implement a DRM loving policy?"

    The short answer is "Yes."

    If you want to sell the Mac in the consumer market. If you want to compete with that Vista media PC from HP or Dell and it's 50 GB HD-DVD or Blu-Ray drive. If you want to sell that big HD wide-screen monitor.

    If you want to sell HD content through iTunes.

    The mwre title of the next and last Harry Potter novel became headline news worldwide. Think of what the video rights to that series alone is worth. Think of what it is worth to Apple.

  • Laptop (Score:2, Informative)

    by JoshJ (1009085)
    Linux works fine on the laptop. Use an Ubuntu livedisc (dapper or edgy- dapper has Long Term Support, whereas Edgy is more up to date) to test it out to make sure it works before installing, and when installing do a dualboot- it's not hard to do (literally all you have to do is check the radio button to partition the hard disc and select the percentage of the HD to give the preexisting OS) and that way if things don't work out in ubuntu your windows install is safe and sound, leaving you free to try out ano

    • Re:Laptop (Score:4, Insightful)

      by stewbacca (1033764) on Thursday December 28 2006, @05:00AM (#17385670)
      Don't blame linux or os x for being "broken" when "broken" really just means "different". This is generally more a problem with old geezers/technophobes, but also a problem with people who are used to Windows's way of doing things. It's been said by some that the people who have the hardest time switching are the "power users", because they have a lot of knowledge of "how to do *somewhat advanced thing*" that isn't the same across OSes. An example would be something like changing the screen resolution, or maybe a bit more advanced, setting up a printer; or adding/removing users.
      I had a Windows nerd friend help me last weekend install Win XP on my intel Mac, and I spent the first 30 minutes educating him that Macs can indeed to all that and more, just not the way he is used to. In nearly every case, the Mac way is simpler, and more elegant, once you drop the preconceived windows-way of doing things and figure out how to do it on a Mac. I hate it when people try to apply Windows logic to a Mac (no, there still isn't a registry, get over it). This is the #1 reason behind all the Linux/Macs suck comments: blatant ignorance.
  • The only restrictions on installing Mac OS X are a label on the box that says "Don't steal software." Windows XP and Vista require activation.

    Considering that Apple is a hardware company, lost revenue from someone not paying for a license is not a huge issue. The same cannot be said for Microsoft -- they have negative hardware revenue (e.g. subsidies on Xbox and Zune devices) -- lost software revenue hurts their bottom line.

    So what makes you think Apple would want a "DRM loving policy"?

    -ch

  • Spend money, but only for OS X? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by Mad Merlin (837387) on Thursday December 28 2006, @02:59AM (#17385250) Homepage

    You comment that you don't mind spending $2000 for a new Mac so you can switch to OS X, but you don't consider the same scenario for Linux. So, why not consider plunking down $2000 on a ThinkPad and running Linux on it?

  • then why are you even worried about DRM?

    These activities are available to you without problems on Windows, Linux, and OS X.
    It looks like you are doing a poor job of rationalizing your desire for a Mac.

  • Microsoft's non-AV DRM approach (Score:3, Insightful)

    by amichalo (132545) on Thursday December 28 2006, @09:28AM (#17387036)
    This is how I see the three platforms measuring up:

    LINUX - Since it doesn't embrasce DRM, content providers are not interested in supplying their creative to it. This means only non-commercial or very small indy media would be available. Further, since Linux is more of a "hacker's OS" it isn't well suited for households where a non-tech may want to jump on the web or download photos from the family digital camera. No Thanks.

    Windows Vista - "DRM isn't just for music any more." This should be the Vista theme. Actually it has started a while back. I love how MS office refuses to register becuase the key has been used too many times - no matter the computer hasn't changed, just been upgraded with more RAM and newer hard drive. But MS can't even decide on one DRM schema so they implemented "PlaysForSure" AND a non-compatible "Zune" DRM schema - THIS IS MORE FREIGHTENING! If the DRM provider stopps supporting the DRM content you are SOL. ONE THING IS FOR CERTAIN - Either the Zune will fail or Plays FOr Sure will fail (is it too soon to think both have already failed?) and those who bought DRMed content and expensive players will have nothing to show for it. Which leads me to...

    Apple OS X - Making a DRM choice is important. One thing I like about Apple is that there are no license keys to type in. There is no "registering with big brother" even for high end software. Plus Apple is REASONABLE - $129 for a single OS upgrade or $199 for a 5 license Family Pack! Apple doesn't rely on DRM to secure their software, only the media that Apple doesn't even supply. Apple fought for user rights when they negotiated DRM with the RIAA and in my opinion, the rights are pretty good. I can still burn mixed CDs to give to friends, I can play on my work, home, and laptop computers - be they Mac or Windows - and I can use on a variety of iPods. I don't pretend to have super human ears or need OGG support and since I find the convenience of iTunes out weighs the "quality" of buying the CD/DVD I have settled into enjoying the DRM Apple is selling.

    This is my opinion. I have switched from Windows to Linux to the Mac and I don't see myself switching again until Windows, Linux, or another OS make radical advances.

  • The State of DRM (Score:3, Informative)

    by LKM (227954) on Thursday December 28 2006, @10:45AM (#17387728) Homepage

    As far as I know it boils down to this:

    Windows XP
    DRM is implemented in individual applications such as iTunes. No fundamental support for DRM. You don't need to use DRM even if you use applications that potentially support DRM (again, such as iTunes).

    Mac OS X
    DRM is implemented in individual applications such as iTunes. No fundamental support for DRM. You don't need to use DRM even if you use applications that potentially support DRM (again, such as iTunes).

    Linux
    Kernel-level support for TPM.

    Vista
    DRM is a fundamental part of Vista. You can't get around it. [schneier.com]

    • Re:If you want a Mac so badly, just buy one alread (Score:5, Informative)

      by ceeam (39911) on Thursday December 28 2006, @01:21AM (#17384900)
      Actually, starting with v6 Ubuntu live CDs and install CDs are the same one disk. Ubuntu installs from link icon on live CD's desktop. Very cool idea, actually.
    • Where did you get $2k when a MacBook costs $1.099?
      • GGP said MacBook Pro. Store.apple.com says MacBook Pro from $1999. I have no idea where GP got 2,000 from though. . .

        • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

          by Golias (176380)
          Actually, it's the best laptop keyboard I've ever owned. (A HELL of a lot better than the crappy keyboard on the Dell Latitude D620 I got from my company.) Not only is it nice to type on, it's much easier to keep it clean, since bagel crumbs and hair can't fall under the keys. I also like how the keys recess when I close the lid. It's the first laptop I've ever owned that didn't eventually end up with a silhouette of the keyboard etched on the screen surface.

          I still call shenanigans on the original post

    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by ericdano (113424)
      So why would someone want to run OS X on something OTHER than an Apple made computer? Do Mac owners want to deal with cheap hardware, driver problems, things not working? And what is the cost benefit? Like $100?

      No thanks. I'm perfectly happy with my iMac. No problems. However, my Windows XP PC......that is a whole other story.

      And what is wrong with iTunes? It has, by far, the fairest DRM. You can burn unlimited copies of the music (you are limited to a certain number per playlist, but you can make a new Pla

      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by Ash-Fox (726320)

        So why would someone want to run OS X on something OTHER than an Apple made computer?

        To get the hardware that's right for them. Apple provides too few choices. For example, the only machine I would get for 'real' gaming, is the top one from Apple, because they don't have something in between that would allow me to use a decent graphics card.

        Do Mac owners want to deal with cheap hardware, driver problems, things not working?

        To be fair.. Often Apple hardware has issues often. Just do a Google on airport expr

        • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

          by stewbacca (1033764)

          So why would someone want to run OS X on something OTHER than an Apple made computer? To get the hardware that's right for them. Apple provides too few choices. For example, the only machine I would get for 'real' gaming, is the top one from Apple, because they don't have something in between that would allow me to use a decent graphics card.

          My 20" iMac is the best PC gaming machine in my house (out of two "real" pcs and 2 macs running Win XP). My PC's have better video cards, and faster cpu cycles, but

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by Ash-Fox (726320)

            My PC's have better video cards, and faster cpu cycles

            That isn't everything.

            but are outperformed by the Core 2 Duo iMac.

            So, how do they compare against Intel Core 2 Duo PCs with better graphic cards?

            Because I some how doubt they are going to give worse performance.

            Neither of my PCs can break 50 fps, with "superior" video cards.

            Graphic cards aren't everything, you need fast RAM, a motherboard that can support RAM at such speeds etc.

            Stating the iMac isn't a viable video game machine because you can't upgrade

      • Re:Step Up (Score:5, Insightful)

        by mrchaotica (681592) * on Thursday December 28 2006, @07:34AM (#17386236)
        And what is wrong with iTunes? It has, by far, the fairest DRM.

        Pardon my bluntness, but that's really no different than asking what's wrong with lethal injection because it's, by far, the least painful method of execution. But regardless of the method you're still dead, just as regardless of the DRM, you're still restricted.

        You can always burn a CD, and re-import it.

        Wrong! You can burn a CD and re-import it until Apple decides you can't. And that mere possibility is more than enough to make it entirely unacceptable.

        Like you, I'm happy with my iMac. However, that does not mean I think Apple can do no wrong, and neither should it mean such for you.

          • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

            by mrchaotica (681592) *

            Ok. This is a bad comparison. So you'd rather not kill people who, with a jury of their peers, and after appeals, everyone says should be killed. People who rape and kill little kids. Yeah....

            Jeez, sorry! I wasn't trying to make a social statement about the death penalty or anything; that wasn't the point. Think of it from the person-to-be-killed's perspective, or better yet, replace it with dying in your sleep. "Whether you die in your sleep, drown, get shot, or catch a horrible, painful disease, you're s

      • Having had both PowerBooks and Thinkpads, I much prefer the hardware of the latter. So much so I ended up switching back to GNU/Linux because despite the superiority of Mac OS X, a T60 + GNU/Linux was a better choice for me than a Macbook + Mac OS X. But a Thinkpad + Mac OS X would have been even better.

        You know, I know there are some people there who seriously believe that there is no computer out there that hasn't been bettered by Apple, but honestly, I can't understand the attitude beyond inane fanboy

        • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

          by Thalagyrt (851883) *
          That was me posting, and I've worked with pro audio for over 10 years, so can your shit. There is a loss of quality from going out of a DAC and into an ADC, period. I don't give a crap that your dad's a DJ, because you obviously haven't done anything serious with music. Go pull out an oscilloscope and do a frequency analysis on that "lossless" copy, will you? Then come back and tell me that it's the same signal. You'll be surprised to find that it IS NOT.

          Even though the signal is all internal, you don't see

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by Animats (122034)

        Once, Microsoft rebooted everybody who had auto reboot turned off but Windows Update turned on. That's when it became clear who was in control.

    • Re:Does it really matter that much in reality? (Score:5, Informative)

      by Nightspirit (846159) on Thursday December 28 2006, @02:39AM (#17385194)
      Contrary to what someone mentioned, no, WMP does not automatically add DRM if you select the mp3 option. Also try the ffdshow codec, it may allow you to play divx content within media center (as within vista I am currently viewing a divx video within windows media player).

      Contrary to all the FUD, the only DRM you have to worry about is on "next-gen" media, and it looks like until they put the analog protection flag up it can apparently be broken (if this article is correct).

      You can still rip all your mp3s or FLAC (with a supported player) off CDs and copy DVDs (with DVD shrink or similar programs). So I really don't see what all the fuss is about [yes, I would prefer no DRM, but at this point it is not very likely. For instance, you are unlikely to see a commercial HD-DVD/blu-ray player (that supports the copy protection flag) for linux, unless linux can provide some means of a protected path for content].
    • Ever hear of kernel extensions and raw device access? OSX does nothing to prevent you from accessing your hardware. You can use Apple's fancy APIs if you want, but you can dig deeper if you prefer, just as you can in Linux or BSD. Windows Vista is the only one that has a protected kernel space, encrypted memory, and randomized memory locations, keeping the user locked away from their hardware.

    • I don't think you understand just how much DRM there is in Vista. Read this and weep [schneier.com].

      Apple simply can't compare with this.

      • APPLE WAS SUING TO REMOVE FIRST AMENDMENT RIGHTS of a online person for publishing secrets about their products

        Uhm, no. Somebody working for Apple was leaking Apple's trade secrets, and Apple wanted to find out who it was. This had nothing to do with bloggers (Mac rumor sites usually aren't even blogs), freedom of the press or first amendment rights. Don't be stupid.

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