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Linux Business

Moving Small Organizations from Windows to Linux? 200

chris1646 asks: "Currently we are a small organization that is entirely a Windows shop. Next year much of the server and desktop hardware we run will need replacing. I am looking for creative ways to introduce Linux as my desktop and server OS of choice, however a couple of our core applications run exclusively on Windows. Has anyone had any success hosting Windows applications via terminal server while using Linux as the client OS? Has anyone handled a AD to open source LDAP migration?"
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Moving Small Organizations from Windows to Linux?

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  • by innosent ( 618233 ) <jmdority.gmail@com> on Saturday December 30, 2006 @07:07PM (#17412190)
    Look at your costs before migrating to Linux clients for RDP. Terminal Services Licenses cost nearly as much as a full XP license, so you will likely spend more to do it this way. Having said that, you might be able to run your critical apps under WINE, and use Linux X clients to run it via SSH. I would definitely focus on the servers first though. Check out the O'Reilly books for LDAP and "Linux in a Windows World" for guidance, but it really depends on how many people need to use those critical windows apps, and what apps they are. Let me know what type of apps you are talking about, as there may be replacements or documented WINE support for them. AD to LDAP isn't likely to be much trouble with only a few users, and any mail, file, and print services should be relatively simple to implement, whether you convert or use winbind to maintain AD integration. Having been on both sides, though, I would definitely prefer switching to LDAP first, as AD can give you plenty of headaches down the road. Also, regardless of which path you take, be sure to make use of NTP to maintain your clocks, since a small drift will eventually wreak havoc on anything using kerberos, and it might not be the first thing that comes to mind when something suddenly stops working.
    • If you have some spare XP Pro licenses, then you could conceivably dedicate a few XP machines (or a few HVM domains on a machine running Xen) to running the Windows-only apps. Only one person could connect to XP at a time, but if the apps are only used infrequently, or by a few people, then this might work.

      Personally, I would begin by switching to cross platform applications, and then switch OS last, once you no longer need it for anything. As another poster said, investigate running the apps under WINE.

      • in all situations where fast user switching is possible, (not domain enviroements, not media editions with extenders) you can have one user on an XP machine locally, and one on RDS logged in remotely.. so- two people could connect to xp at a time.

        see http://sig9.com/articles/concurrent-remote-desktop [sig9.com]

        before my network at home became a domain enviroment, I used this to run xp sessions off a crappy win me laptop....

        except for processing video, it was just like a full fledged xp on my laptop..
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      by secolactico ( 519805 )
      Having said that, you might be able to run your critical apps under WINE, and use Linux X clients to run it via SSH.

      ... after making sure with your software/support provided that this is a supported configuration. Otherwise, they might use it as an excuse when something breaks (even if it's not a wine issue) to wiggle out of fixing a particularly difficult problem (if they are anything like the provider of a company I used to work with, they probably sold you the Windows licenses and might not be tickled p
    • by mnmn ( 145599 )
      Its more than just the immediate costs.

      I used to bitch and complain about X and other parts of Linux that were obstacles... I then worked at a company where I could move everything to Linux, in theory.

      The question came up... why should we anyway? Every new computer comes with Windows and all the drivers preinstalled. We just have to spend 30 minutes uninstalling all the crap that comes with it.

      And then how much of your infrastructure will you move to Linux? If you're not using an app that requires Windows y
      • Re: (Score:2, Interesting)

        > The question came up... why should we anyway? Every new computer comes with Windows and all the drivers preinstalled. We just have to spend 30 minutes uninstalling all the crap that comes with it.

        You shouldn't be using the default Windows install anyway. You should be using an image. Default Windows installs sometimes have viruses and spyware (no, really, they do).

        > And then how much of your infrastructure will you move to Linux? If you're not using an app that requires Windows you might in the fu
  • Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

    by NineNine ( 235196 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @07:07PM (#17412196)
    As always, there's not enough information. Why do you want to do this? What are you trying to accomplish? What apps? How critical are they? If you want to switch just for the sake of switching, then really, you should be fired.
    • If you want to switch just for the sake of switching, then really, you should be fired.

      I disagree somewhat with this. For some people, it goes beyond technology to beliefs of free and open systems. It was me deciding to switch "just to switch" that led me to the great programs I use today (Firefox, Thunderbird, Eclipse, etc), and a desktop I enjoy (Gnome on Gentoo).

      As long as he takes into account all of the things (like are they going to pay for support if one of the systems does down - or do they even /ne

      • For some people, it goes beyond technology to beliefs of free and open systems

        Well, if you're personal system, it doesn't matter what you use. But this guy is talking about a business. If it's anything like my business, computer downtime costs a lot of money, and a lot of families depend on those computers being up and functional. I think that basing what should be a business decision on a (questionable) philosophy can be a pretty irresponsible move. If it goes badly, what do you say to the employees w
        • All your points are valid. Here's the flip side (which I assume you'll appriciate):
          All thosed licences *should* cost money. I know several small businesses with pirated apps and OS's. I myself used a pirated suite of OSs and such for quite some time. Margins are thin enough without paying M$ nearly a grand and a half for Office, OS, and sundry other apps, add another $2K to Adobe and that's a chunk of change when you are trying to start-up.

          More than one of my clients has switched (or tried to till some
          • Re:Why? (Score:5, Insightful)

            by NineNine ( 235196 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @08:32PM (#17412690)
            Oh, I own a tiny company, and I spend more than that. I've got about 10 machines, all with licensed W2K or XP. The kicker is that my point-of-sale software costs $1600/workstation, and I have 5 workstations, and support for this software is no more than two years. That's a *lot* of money for a six person company. But really, I have no alternative. It's a cost of doing business. There's no free alternatives to my POS software, and the OSS ones simply don't do what we need them to do (integrated credit card processing, integration with Quickbooks, Win 32 API to hook into our web site, etc.). So, I have to look at my business. My options are to spend $8K every few years of software, or try to run a retail store with more than 10,000 items and over $1M/year in sales with some kludged together OSS stuff that would take a *lot* more effort, and may not even be possible without spending about 20 years worth of licensing costs to pay somebody to develop something.

            If I owned a white-collar business that used computers for basic word processing and email, then sure, it doesn't really matter what you use. But how often is that the case, in this day and age? My friend, an attorney (basic office job, right?), needed some good way to handle scheduling, contacts, email, etc. Of course, he went with Exchange. Why? After spending about 6 months looking for OSS solutions (and don't forget, he could have been using those hours to bill clients at $150/hour), he had lost a ton of money, he pissed off the other lawyers in the office with all of the software mess, and he looked very unprofessional when whatever he was using wasn't working, and he couldn't respond to his clients. Finally I told him to spend a hundred bucks a month on hosted Exchange service, and get on with his law business. Everything is running pretty smoothly in that office now.

            Maybe, MAYBE if I ran, hmm... maybe a... hmmm... catering company, then OSS would work. All you need is some basic financial tracking (ooops... still no payroll), and something to print pretty estimates and invoices. But really, I can't think of a lot of businesses in this day and age that would be willing to do something so dramatic to save such a small amount of money (I spend about 30 times more on rent than I do on software).
            • by dave562 ( 969951 )
              Maybe, MAYBE if I ran, hmm... maybe a... hmmm... catering company, then OSS would work. All you need is some basic financial tracking (ooops... still no payroll), and something to print pretty estimates and invoices.

              Or you could just run CaterEase (a Windows app) and forget about having to hack together some OSS solution. =)

            • Again, I can't disagree with you.
              Ever notice that the POS app is usually a POS? Anyway, the clients I've successfully moved to OSS/Wine were a DJ, a coffee shop back office, and an office supply company. All had minimal transition issues, the coffee shop being the worst. The coffee shop front office stayed windows, for your same reason, the POS POS was windows only, and wouldn't run on WINE. Still they saved quite a bit on licence costs for the back office, and while I was at it I set up a Wi-Fi with me
            • by Sparr0 ( 451780 )
              Why do you need integration with quickbooks instead of some other open accounting/bookkeeping/invoicing software? Why the HELL do you need a Win32 API for integration with a website... wtf is your website running*? I have used FOSS POS programs, they arent very mature but they do work and they store their data in open well-documented formats and systems so custom software to pull it out and do [whatever] with it wouldnt be that hard to write.

              $4000/yr buys you the services of a local college graduate and
            • (ooops... still no payroll)


              Chapter 14. Payroll [gnucash.org]
            • My friend, an attorney (basic office job, right?), needed some good way to handle scheduling, contacts, email, etc. Of course, he went with Exchange.

              For small companies there are easy solutions to do scheduling and handling contacts. I worked in a small company that had a couple of applications integrated with LDAP and a webinterface for contacts and scheduling. Unfortunatly, these things don't deploy well on the large infrastructure of most companies. I'm not a big fan of exchange, but most of the times i

    • As always, there's not enough information. Why do you want to do this? What are you trying to accomplish? What apps? How critical are they? If you want to switch just for the sake of switching, then really, you should be fired.

      Dude, this is Slashdot. The benefits of switching to an Free/Open solution should be obvious.

      At the very least, we can assume the goal here is to prise the organization from the jaws of Vendor Lock-In. A vendor like Microsoft has no reason to be nice to a small- to medium-sized co

      • A vendor like Microsoft has no reason to be nice to a small- to medium-sized company

        What are you talking about? Microsoft makes a lot of their money off of smaller operations that use their products. MS utterly relies on third party consultants and expertise to deploy/support solutions for those users, and if that whole channel (including the end users) aren't kept happy and functioning, they'll lose a lot of mindshare.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by NineNine ( 235196 )
        A vendor like Microsoft has no reason to be nice to a small- to medium-sized company, and this leaves anyone locked in to a Microsoft system vunerable.

        OK, let's think about this realistically. MS is the largest software company on the planet, with a financial statement that rivals the largest companies on the planet. They're not going away any time soon, and their OS is used everywhere. There are tons and tons of applications of all kinds that will work with Windows.

        Case in point: basic small-business
        • Actually, there are other options. I used to work for an all open source company, and they used some web based accounting software to do payroll.

          To say that any product is required to run a business is just silly. Companies existed long before the computer, the phone, or even the desktop calculator. Part of running a small business is being able to just make it work, because it has to.
      • Re: (Score:3, Interesting)

        by NineNine ( 235196 )
        A vendor like Microsoft has no reason to be nice to a small- to medium-sized company, and this leaves anyone locked in to a Microsoft system vunerable.

        I'm about to spend a lot more money with MS, as we migrate our point-of-sale systems to MS RMS. They have very helpful salespeople that are willing to hold my hand even though the total bill won't be in the 5 digits, and they even are financing it for me. MS is actually very easy for my small company to deal with.

        and this leaves anyone locked in to a Mi
        • MS is actually very easy for my small company to deal with

          Faust? Is that you?
          • Well, they are. If I don't like their software any more, I'll buy something else in a few years. I'm not selling them my soul. It's just software.
        • "and this leaves anyone locked in to a Microsoft system vunerable."

          Vulnerable to what? Give me a real world scenario. I just don't see it.

          to being forced to upgrade when they want you to upgrade rather than when you want to upgrade... to having your business critical data locked into a proprietary binary blob that can only be read/written by their software and leaves you beholden to them for the ability to access your data.

          say your system currently runs XP and all your software is XP compatible. One da

    • Re: (Score:2, Informative)

      by pogson ( 856666 )
      "If you want to switch just for the sake of switching, then really, you should be fired."

      No one wants to waste time and money switching for the sake of switching. Most open-minded IT folks understand:

      • Windows is fragile compared to a UNIX/POSIX OS.
      • Microsoft has a monopoly. It costs money to buy from a monopoly. Competition is almost always better. Let Windows compete on its merits by examining alternatives.
      • There are tens of thousands of malwares out there looking for Windows systems.
      • Microsoft likes to
      • "If you want to switch just for the sake of switching, then really, you should be fired."

        No one wants to waste time and money switching for the sake of switching.

        Nonsense. We routinely see (here on Slashdot) folks advocating switching for what, in the end, amounts to political, philosophical, or religious reasons. They don't care about costs - all they care is that 'Linus is the l33t and Micro$oft is shit and everyone should thereforr run Linux'.

  • by Shaman ( 1148 ) <shaman AT kos DOT net> on Saturday December 30, 2006 @07:08PM (#17412198) Homepage
    We have a single W2K3 system which serves up a couple of legacy apps over RDP (Rdesktop) and integration with Samba, etc. has gone well for us. The standard KDE applications work fine although you do have to choose your distribution, largely because Flash can hang and/or crash Konqueror on a regular basis (blame Flash, not Konq).

    The only issue we have run in to is that Windows will only let you log in with RDP so many times before it will blacklist your machine's hostname for not having a genuine MS license. It's a pain but we just more or less randomize the hostname regularly. Good old Micro$oft... they won't even let you administratively remove the blacklisting without delving into the Registry (haven't tried that, but I figure it must be possible). This happens infrequently, by the way, W2k3 will probably accept a good 100 connections before it whines.
  • > however a couple of our core applications run exclusively on Windows

    Then that is where you have to start.

    Yes, you could insert a couple of Linux systems in side roles that don't require them to run the core apps, e.g., a DNS server here and a CGI server there and so on and so forth -- and that's likely worth doing for its own sake -- but if you want to migrate entirely off of Windows, you've first got to migrate to all cross-platform applications.
    • Re: (Score:2, Insightful)

      by wynler ( 678277 )
      Absolutely 100% correct.  If you have a small company, and applications that require Windows.  You don't switch to Linux.

      • But you can switch to apps that do NOT require Windows first.
    • ... if you want to migrate entirely off of Windows, you've first got to migrate to all cross-platform applications.

      No, all that you should worry about is data continuity. Your criteria, which sounds reasonable, removes KDE and other best of class choices from consideration. Why do that if the substitute application can use the data without problem and then do many more things with it? KDE's groupware is excellent and as good a reason as any to migrate away from Windows. Not considering it because it

  • by Semireg ( 712708 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @07:19PM (#17412260)

    Next year much of the server and desktop hardware we run will need replacing.
    Migrate your servers to virtual machines. You can do this for free using Cent OS as the host, and VMware Server (free) software to run virtual machines. The VMware Converter (now in beta) will allow you to p2v, or migrate physical-to-virtual machines and this is done while the source server is powered on. So, regardless if you're going to Linux right now, you can make the jump to hardware-agnostic VMs with just a few clicks, and no extra money spent. Right away, you'll gain flexibility by utilizing your new hardware more efficiently. Good luck!
    • Virtual servers, remote desktop etc is less responsive. Sure, it depends what applications you're using, but anything like Photoshop or video is out of the window as speed is critical.
  • My Office (Score:4, Informative)

    by Sparr0 ( 451780 ) <sparr0@gmail.com> on Saturday December 30, 2006 @07:19PM (#17412262) Homepage Journal
    My current boss, a close friend of mine, single-handedly began a FOSS migration in our 3-location 100-desktop 20-offsite-laptop-user office about a year ago. I came on board about 3 months ago, almost through the first stages of the process. We now have 99% of our users on OpenOffice (one holdout, and I am going to fix his missing feature ASAP to get him off Excel), and 100% migrated away from IE+Outlook (most on Firefox+Thunderbird, a few people requested Mac desktops and are using Safari+Mail). We transitioned to Open Directory on an OS X Server with nary a hitch, with the added bonus that OD supports LDAP which means it plays nice with all of our new extranet and internet services (LDAP login to our helpdesk, CMS, etc).

    Eventually Windows XP will lose support and we will have to consider sticking with unsupported XP, or moving to Vista/Fiji/Vienna, or a complete migration to Mac, or a final alternative that I am starting to push slowly up the list of possibilities... Linux. My boss is a Mac user, he dislikes many of the problems with Windows. He had the popular misconception that Linux is hard to install, hard to maintain, and hard to use in general. My first day, when provided free reign over my own desktop, I let him watch me go through a Kubuntu installation. Cleared up all that nonsense right quick. From a blank hard drive to a better-than-Explorer GUI, with both of our network printers completely configured, desktop shortcuts to our network shares, Firefox and Thunderbird installed as well as a GUI terminal (we have legacy apps requiring telnet to our SCO UNIX machine), all in under 30 minutes, and without touching a text console.

    Running actual GUI Windows applications in Linux CAN be difficult, but often is not. There is a VERY good chance that they will 'Just Work' under WINE or Crossover Office. If you need terminal services functionality, rdesktop has worked great for me. There is also the VMWare/etc option, if the programs are old enough for the perfomance hit to not matter (and if you're developing "core" applications that only run on Windows TODAY, then youve got other problems).
    • There is also the VMWare/etc option, if the programs are old enough for the perfomance hit to not matter

      One comment about this: The VMWare "performance hit" is overblown, IMO. As long as the machine has enough RAM to give both the host and guest operating systems what they need, VMWare virtual machines run at very close to native speed. In most cases, no one will be able to tell the difference between VMWare in fullscreen mode and Windows running natively on the machine.

      The one real exception that I've noticed is that disk I/O can be greatly degraded if you make use of snapshots. That makes sense, bec

  • by tftp ( 111690 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @07:38PM (#17412360) Homepage
    One computer costs $1,000 in hardware. One employee costs $120,000 per year, with burdening. One "mission-critical" application costs anywhere from $800 (AutoCAD 2007) to $5,000 (Inventor 11, non-pro.) One WinXP Pro license costs mere $150 even if you buy it at maximum cost, as a retail box. Now, aren't you putting the cart way ahead of the horse? A single wasted hour of any of your employees' time (or your own) will cost as much as an XP Pro license. Have your numbers straight before switching, and have very good reasons to switch.

    The problem with businesses is that they are not very open to OS theology; businesses just want to do what they are doing, and if the job requires computers and OS and apps and stuff, well - that's just the cost of doing business. It will cost money to run a Linux shop, and it will be probably *more expensive* to run a Linux shop, considering that every Windows app -- that normally would be "install and run" on any Windows box -- becomes a WINE nightmare, to see where it crashes and how to work around those crashes. Do you really want to buy a $20,000 app (there are plenty of specialty apps in this price range, all mission-critical) just to find out that no, it won't run under WINE, and no, vendor support in such environment is not provided. Do you want to lose the support on such an expensive app? You are risking not just your job, you are risking jobs of your coworkers too - if the company loses a contract because of OS troubles then some employees may need to be laid off, starting with you, of course.

    If you have dreams about using RDP for those few apps that you must have on Windows, it depends on what those apps are. Some apps do not permit running under RDP because that would be inviting to buy one copy of an app and then have the whole company to access the server and run the thing. I personally know of some examples, so check before you buy into it. And other posters already said that the cost of a terminal license is as high as WinXP, and you have all the eggs in one basket (server.) Server dies - the whole company stops; are you OK with that?

    Again, businesses don't want anything that deviates from tried, tested and true path. Cost is not a concern here; labor and apps cost uncountably more than the OS. If you want to migrate, you still can do that; I tried myself, starting with a 3-man company, and guess what eventually happened? Once we started growing, the total cost of maintenance of a mixed network shot through the roof (and disappeared among the stars.) Now we stick to Linux on firewalls, and Windows XP everywhere else. We do use Linux on our embedded systems, and it's perfect there. Desktops are a different matter.

    • xp pro costs double that, full retail.
      • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

        by anomaly ( 15035 )
        Ok. You're right. That means that 2 hours of employee time make up for the cost of one Windows XP license.

        Please don't misunderstand - F/OSS provides LOTS of great software, but I don't see any way you can pencil the cost of Linux as a desktop replacement for Windows. Linux makes just about everything possible. (FWIW, I have been a daily Linux user since 1994.) Just because it's possible doesn't make it a good idea. Just because it's cool doesn't make it make any business sense, either.

        All of the soft
    • ``A single wasted hour of any of your employees' time (or your own) will cost as much as an XP Pro license.''

      But won't XP Pro cause its own wasted hours of employee time? Malware, crashes, sluggishness, ...
      • by tftp ( 111690 )
        Not really. A properly administered network has minimal, and filtered, access to the Internet, and your employees aren't supposed to surf pr0n sites at work. A typical use of a business computer is to work with spreadsheets, create and edit documents, drawings, send and receive emails using Thunderbird, or browse Digi-Key or Mouser catalogs using Firefox. An engineer would be using his CAD to create models of mechanical parts, or electrical diagrams, or RF simulations. This works, and the proof of the p
        • A properly administered network has minimal

          That's the thing. A properly administered network? There's no such thing without a lot of constant work.

          New patches, new patches gone bad. Installing thunderbird. Fixing corrupt registries. Removing the new virus that just came out. Rebooting your exchange server. Installing new service packs. And on, and on, and on, and on....

          The COST for windows XP is far, far, far greater than $150.
          • by tftp ( 111690 )
            You sound like such maintenance work is totally absent from Linux setups. One of my older SuSE boxes was once killed by a patch, and none of that ever happened to any of my WinXP boxes, so what? Things happen, that's life. I don't have an Exchange server, so I don't even know how to reboot one, but my Postfix + Cyrus mail setup is mostly bug-free, though I still haven't figured out why an admin can't delete top-level user.foo mailboxes with cyradm. And on, and on, and on, and on....

            The bottom line is

            • I used to run several hundred debian installs with cfengine. At the job I'm starting at in a few days, I will probably do the same. I left the old one partly because it was boring. With desktops, it could be almost as painless, though there will always be cases like the one you mentioned above.

              In any case, my point was that you shouldn't trivialize XP to $150.

              The problem with Cyrus, in your case, is that you chose CMU software. Like most other CMU software, it mostly follows standards and logic but likes to
        • by bky1701 ( 979071 )
          Like many things, that only works on paper. Someone will always be able to cause some major problem, even if it's IT themselves, and most likely they will at least once. Many viruses only take one computer to infect a whole network. Running a fully patched win XP I got a virus from a corporate network (I was visiting and they had a virus... go figure), how I still don't know, and my systems are all configured very secure compared to most.
    • One computer costs $1,000 in hardware. One employee costs $120,000 per year, with burdening. One "mission-critical" application costs anywhere from $800 (AutoCAD 2007) to $5,000 (Inventor 11, non-pro.) One WinXP Pro license costs mere $150 ...

      Software costs are a burden. Employees are productive assets.

      The rest of your analysis is based on the presumption that Windows works. If that was true, no one would be considering a migration.

      • Re: (Score:3, Informative)

        by tftp ( 111690 )
        Software costs are a burden. Employees are productive assets.

        Software and hardware costs, rent, business licenses, salaries and taxes are your business expenses. It does not matter what names you use; it only matters what you pay for. If you rent a tool, it's out of your pocket. If you hire an employee, it's out of your pocket. Money-wise they are the same.

        The rest of your analysis is based on the presumption that Windows works. If that was true, no one would be considering a migration.

        Modern Wind

    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      The problem with businesses is that they are not very open to OS theology; businesses just want to do what they are doing

      Some of us would argue that this is not a problem, but a feature.

    • by Sparr0 ( 451780 )
      One computer costs $1,000 in hardware. One employee costs $120,000 per year, with burdening. One "mission-critical" application costs anywhere from $800 (AutoCAD 2007) to $5,000 (Inventor 11, non-pro.) One WinXP Pro license costs mere $150 even if you buy it at maximum cost, as a retail box. Now, aren't you putting the cart way ahead of the horse? A single wasted hour of any of your employees' time (or your own) will cost as much as an XP Pro license. Have your numbers straight before switching, and have ve
    • One computer costs $1,000 in hardware. One employee costs $120,000 per year, with burdening. One "mission-critical" application costs anywhere from $800 (AutoCAD 2007) to $5,000 (Inventor 11, non-pro.) One WinXP Pro license costs mere $150 even if you buy it at maximum cost, as a retail box. Now, aren't you putting the cart way ahead of the horse? A single wasted hour of any of your employees' time (or your own) will cost as much as an XP Pro license. Have your numbers straight before switching, and have v

  • by mrscott ( 548097 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @07:50PM (#17412436)
    Ok - since this is Slashdot, I expect to be thrashed for looking at this from the business perspective (I'm a CIO with 13 years of IT experience). The first question to ask yourself is this: "Why?"

    Ok, I'll be the first to admit that there is a tremedous lure to FOSS software and have rolled it out myself in a number of situations, but not to desktops. I've replaced web servers, database servers and Windows file servers with servers running Apache, PostgreSQL and Samba. However, before I considered something like this in my current environment, I'd need to do a serious cost analysis that went way beyond licensing costs. For example, what will this mean to the user that has been using Windows and MS Office for 10 years? And, you mentioned that some of your core applications are Windows-only affairs. Sure, you can use RDP/Citrix to run these apps, but then you're throwing the Windows licensing costs into the mix. Not to mention the possibility that your apps won't like running in this way.

    So, how much is your infrastructure *really* costing you?

    How much would retraining cost?

    How much would it cost to possibly have to give up your core vendor support due to running in an potentially unsupported configuration?

    This may sound like I'm anti-FOSS. Actually, I'm not - I love FOSS in the right situation. WHat I AM against is FOSS for the sake of FOSS. While I "grew up" on the IT side of the house, I'm a big believer in the business needs dictating IT's role and responsiblity rather than the other way around.

    My advice: Think this through before you put a lot of time into it. You may end up saving a whole lot more (not just money) by sticking with what works.

    • I tried this once. It worked well under Win2K server, and the old licensing regime. For the new one, I paid almost as much in client access licenses as I would have for Windows XP licenses. As an academic shop, our costs were low enough for that to make sense, but for those of you in the real world, I'd be more careful.

      We ran into a couple of issues. The easily solved one was multiple copies of Office and Matlab are resource hogs. Get a large application server for those, and look into some sort of c
    • I'm kinda in the same position. 12 years of experience working mostly on WAN and LAN/MAN backbone links. My vision is very skewed. On the backbone, things "just work". If they don't, KDDI, ATT, Cisco, Juniper, and other companies send a *very* skilled tech to look at our problems. 24*7*365 I can get a tech on-site in under an hour.

      When I went over to the dark side (doing server to switch to user support), I was shocked. Everything sucked so bad. I had 300 users with different installs, different soft
  • Can't Linux clients participate in an active directory domain? It's probably not a bad idea to migrate in small stages, get people used (including the admin staff!) to each chunk before you move on.

    Stage 1: Open Office, Firefox on the desktop.
    Stage 2: Start migrating storage to a Samba server.
    Stage 3: Set up your terminal server and provide clients on the Windows desktops. Only add new apps to the terminal server from this point on (so people start using it).
    Stage 4: Get a couple of Linux machines out into
    • Re: (Score:3, Insightful)

      Oh, and when putting machines out for testing you have a good opportunity to help manipulate the users.

      Make the test machines pretty spiffy. Get some flat panel displays for example, if you haven't already got them deployed. Draw lots for who gets the 'first upgrades' rather than allocating it out like it's work.

      Properly set up (if your office is anything like mine just set the default screensaver to the 3D matrix one and make them dual screen machines) you will get huge enthusiasm for 'the upgrade' rather
    • by Lumpy ( 12016 )
      Stage 8 scream OH CRAP as you find out that AD is not supported as a PDC on samba. return to step 1 and replace AD completely with LDAP.

      Active Directory is an abortion that needs to be eratdicated on the first step so you dont get it ingraned in the company. Kerbos and LDAP first, switch the BACKEND way before the frontend and clients.

      It's far easier to swap out the servers without impacting the users... after you get rid of the MS only services then the desktop rollout is far easier.

      Eliminate exchange i
  • ...the issues are: what ARE your "core applications"? How MANY users are there that NEED them (which translates into license costs)? Can those apps be run in some other way than currently done?

    If you have core apps which are PACKAGED third party apps that you need to run and cannot alter yourself, then you'll have to find a way to run them if you want to switch.

    OTOH, if your core apps are DEVELOPED third party apps - start planning on how to either get those third parties to port them to Linux, or, better,
  • Is it going to just stop working?
  • You might not need LDAP (except for email client address look ups). Microsoft has a much more complicated way of handling user accounts that *nix does. At the most basic level a user exists in Linux if they have an entry in a plain text password file. Of course they'll probably need a home directory as well but it's pretty simple stuff, no database necessary. If you do need it, try openldap.

    I switched a company of about 400 users with 2T of data from Windows, Netware, and Lotus Mail to Linux. I started b
  • by westlake ( 615356 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @08:53PM (#17412818)
    I am looking for creative ways to introduce Linux as my desktop and server OS of choice

    Hold up, there, cowboy. That is the wrong question to ask.

    The systems and servers aren't your personal plaything. They are there to meet the needs of your employer. The small organization. The all-Windows shop.

    There are often reasons for choosing the proprietary app. The predominant OS for a business of your size or type or location. Reasons that are not always narrowly technical, not always narrowly economic.

  • Do it the other way around. You can set up one or more beefy machines running Linux and serving VNC sessions to desktop machines running minimal Windows XP installations. Users can run under Windows what they must, and everything else via their VNC client.

    This simplifies/centralizes Linux maintenance, reduces the maintenance complexity of the desktops, and minimizes the need for desktop hardware and software upgrades.
  • The path to getting what you want is via "server virtualization". This path is working even at large corporations.

    It's quite easy to build a case for the benefits of virtualizing your server hardware so you're managing several disk images on a redundant cluster of physical servers. Once you get your shit working under VMware or maybe even qemu, it's easy to build the server farm on VMware ESX server (which only runs on Linux) or etc. After that, you can start deploying other new services more natively on
  • by slk ( 2510 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @10:26PM (#17413346)
    Then you probably need to be running Windows, at least on the client.

    I have a day job as the head system administrator for a medium sized but very high-tech non-profit. We run Macintosh (OSX) clients and Linux servers because they do what we need to do, and do it well. I have also been working with Linux and various other forms of Unix since 1994 (this includes using Linux and/or FreeBSD as a primary desktop OS since 1994. LaTeX works fine as a word processor if you know what you're doing.)

    I also do consulting work for several smallish companies, and they all run Windows. It's really simple - if you need good 2D CAD software, you need Windows. If you need a modern multi-user accounting package that can do strange things like payroll and integrate with direct deposit, you need Windows. If you need a *good* spreadsheet (no, OOo calc doesn't count), you need Windows or OSX. If you want to run all of this on one desktop operating system, you need Windows. Crossover Office, WINE, VMWare, etc. aren't going to convert many small businesses; they want less complexity, not more. (some of these clients have Linux servers - network edge, multiprotocol file and print services, web apps, etc. - but they are close to 100% Windows on the desktop)

    I think that you could convert a LOT of small businesses over if you could get a Peachtree or Quickbooks port for Linux. However, for small business, you don't stand a chance until you get *good* accounting software. OOo calc not sucking would really help too; lots of businesses make very heavy use of spreadsheets. (OOo Writer sucks, but so does Word. OOo Impress is adequate, as it's all pretty much PowerPointless anyway.)

    If you're looking for long-term savings, I'd suggest considering Windows TS clients (use your old XP machines/licenses/etc), and a Windows 2k3 server terminal server. It won't be all that cheap to setup initially, but you will be able to significantly reduce your maintenance headaches.

    Look at the business needs, and pick technologies that meet the business needs. Make technology work FOR your business; I've see what happens when you flip that around, and it isn't pretty.

  • by SQLz ( 564901 ) on Saturday December 30, 2006 @10:53PM (#17413478) Homepage Journal
    I actually don't work for the group in charge of maintaining the systems, but I know a few things about how they are maintained. Basically, all systems have the same exact same RH4 image and sync up against an internal yum repository for software updates. There is basically zero maintenance for each machine besides that. Users can't write to the hard drive, all data is stored on netapp filers. When you are hired, you get really basic classes on how to use KDE, the internal wiki, Open Office, get on mailing lists, etc. A caveman could pass these classes.

    We have over 7000 linux machines and 4 people to maintain them, plus 1000+ technical and non technical employees. Using Linux saves us millions of dollars, which pays for a couple of those netapps. The thing is, Linux just works, not to mention the vast amount of free software that is available for it.

    Truthfully, and its a sad truth for some people, anyone who says Linux isn't ready for the corporate world has no idea what they are talking about. Its been there for while.

  • Although I don't have direct experience with such things, the only thing I would offer is this site:-

    http://www.infrastructures.org/ [infrastructures.org]

    since it seems to describe setting up a very reliable open source-based network infrastructure in a lot of detail.
    I also wish you luck with this. Although I have some knowledge which I had thought could help with such things, normally when I make suggestions here I get reprimanded for being impractical if I advocate doing anything other than going to a vendor and simply lettin

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