How Can We Convert the US to the Metric System? 1487
thesolo asks: "Despite past efforts of the 1970s and 1980s, the United States remains one of only three countries (others are Liberia and Myanmar) that does not use the metric system. Staying with imperial measurements has only served to handicap American industry and economy. Attempts to get Americans using the Celsius scale, or putting up speed limits in kilometers per hour have been squashed dead. Not only that, but some Americans actually see metrication efforts as an assault on 'our way' of measuring. I personally deal with European scientists on a daily basis, and find our lack of common measurement to be extremely frustrating. Are we so entrenched with imperial units that we cannot get our fellow citizens to simply learn something new? What are those of us who wish to finally see America catch up to the rest of the world supposed to do? Are there any organizations that we may back, or any pro-metric legislators who we can support?"
What's stopping you? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why do you need the government to change the speed limit signs if your problem is interoperating with scientists?
A question I alwais ask when discussing this... (Score:1, Insightful)
Since he calculation using the metric system is really easy
Government legisation (Score:1, Insightful)
Why change.... (Score:4, Insightful)
Most, if not all of the problems I deal with (mechanical engineering) have systems and specifications that are in metric units now. Most (nearly all) national standards I deal with are already in metric units. CAD and analysis systems can switch units without problems.
What use is it to change units for the general population? Is there a need to buy apples in Kg? Or gasoline in Liters? Medicine is specified in Mg. Engine displacement is shown in Liters. Should 2x4's be 50x100's?
great arguments... (Score:4, Insightful)
Sexist
The metric system has been almost wholly created and standardized by male scientists and bureaucrats. At the time, during which women were considerably less liberated than today, woman had virtually no say in the creation and, in many countries, the imposition of these units. Perhaps, if they had, the value of the practical units used in those tasks undertaken by woman at the time would have been recognized.
I can understand trying to make a point against the metric system, but this!? Any other real arguments won't be taken serious anymore..
Not to mention that I doubt women had any say in the current system.
School and Law (Score:5, Insightful)
Then comes the tricky part: legislation. The resistance from the lazy public and business will be incredible - it'll be seen as one extra unnecessary expense - but it has to be done. It must be a legal requirement that wherever an amount is shown in Imperial, it must also be shown in metric.
That should be enough to get the ball rolling, but it's a long process, and - as the poster above pointed out - it may not stick right away. The UK has used metric officially for many years now but go into a hardware store and they'll still sell you a length of 2-by-4.
It may take many years to kill off Imperial measurements, but I think those are the two most important steps to affect the change.
Re:A question I alwais ask when discussing this... (Score:3, Insightful)
Ahh, but the metric person will walk 5000 metres, or 500,000 centimeters in that hour, whereas the imperial person will walk how many inches again? Where's my calculator...
Re:Only Three? (Score:3, Insightful)
And while the UK may still have mile signs on the road and some people (again mainly older people) measure their height and weight using the old system, everything else is metric. It's just "cuter" to say "he's 6ft tall", rather than 180cm.
Honestly, I don't see what all the fuss is about. The metric system is clearly technically superior, and clearly more widely accepted. It takes all of about a week to start thinking in metric units instead of imperial if you put your mind to it... holding out on the imperial system just for the sake of it is just... lazy/stupid, and well-deserving of the ridicule IMO. I mean, every other country managed to make the conversion, so what's the problem...?
Re:Pipe dream. (Score:5, Insightful)
Right, because there are no old houses in Europe. This is why they have successfully converted to metric.
Your argument is flawed.
There are a couple of points (Score:2, Insightful)
1) "I personally deal with European scientists on a daily basis, and find our lack of common measurement to be extremely frustrating."
So? USE THE METRIC SYSTEM, then. *Nobody* is stopping you. I work for a European-HQ'ed paper company, and corporate is constantly dealing in square meters, while our customers are asking for things in thousand-square-feet units. Should I wring my hands and moan piteously about how complicated this is? Or is it perhaps easier just to learn the conversion rate(s) and become skilled at quick mental conversions?
There are hundreds if not thousands of industries in the US that commonly and regularly use Metric system units every day.
2) In a larger view, the difficulty in getting people to switch is symptomatic of our long-BROKEN educational system. We've had a system that accepts the production of stupid adults for a half-century; is it a surprise that much of the American electorate is, well, stupid? For 40 years, 'enlightened' social-promotion educators have insisted that there is no educational canon, no set of knowledge that's necessary to be a functional adult. Every time someone would say "look, maybe it's useful if we insist that all children must know X or must perform at Y level of aptitude before graduating", a chorus of voices (generally from the Left) would claim that was merely being classist, ethnocentrist, racist, or somehow a vague assault on the inherent value of whatever child didn't get it.
Couple that with the capitalist overreach into the educational system (going after the Right now), from corporate sponsors pumping millions of units of sugar-pop and crap-snacks into nutrition starved teens, up to the ability of college athletes to skate through education because of their financial contribution to the school, and you have a recipe for disaster.
We need to return to elementary schools that teach the basics, and REQUIRE a certain level of aptitude before graduation.
We need to have a post-secondary system that doesn't require the first 2 years to be remedial college-prep education.
We need to have colleges insist on a specific canon of educational requirements for all students, and dispense with the boutique specifics that suit some tenure-protected professor's ideological goals.
Then, perhaps, in 20-30 years we can rebuild a working democracy, with an enlightened electorate capable of making intelligent choices.
Re:Government legisation (Score:3, Insightful)
No benefit (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm working in Canada now. Despite the fact that their government forced metric units on them, do you realize that virtually everyone (well, immigrants from metric countries notwithstanding) continues to use Imperial units (in this case, they are Imperial units -- 4.4L/gallon, etc) in their daily life? It's 82 outside, not 28. I weigh 190, not 86. I had a fever of 101, not 39.
What's really strange is working in Mexico, where they never officially use US units. Milk is sold in galones (gallons, yup, right on the label). Talking about small measurements is quite often done in pulgadas (inches). They don't use millas (miles) in normal conversation, but they all seem to have a general sense of what they are. Yardas may be well know because of American football, and Fahrenheit makes no sense to them, but they're fairly well versed in libras (pounds).
Me? I like the metric system, and use it where it makes sense to use it. But going through the expense of wholesale conversion to the metric system makes no sense and will cause more problems than it solves. Think of the sheer amount of measurements that would have to change. There's the mundane -- 37" TV's will have to change. But what about construction materials? Plumbing? Lumber? Fasteners? What about highway sytems? Exit signs, mile markers, speed limit signs, maps, documentation? The US survey system, then? Acres, townships, counties, baseline locations, meridian locations, title and deed documents? What about food packaging? Why eliminate US measurements when metric measurements are already there?
Interstate 19 between Tucson and Nogales, Arizona is labelled in km/h for some inexplicable reason. Is there a benefit to anyone there?
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:5, Insightful)
I like in England, where we're mostly metric (although a lot of Imperial units are still used), but ALL scientists use metric for everything. It's not because of some magical superiorty science that normal people need either, it's mostly because multiplying by 10 is a lot easier than multiplying by 12 then 16 then 8, or whatever!
The Celsius scale is a bad example. (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm in agreement on use of all other metrics.
American scientists use metric (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't know where you work, but as an American scientist/engineer myself I always use metric in my professional work. Meters, kelvin, kilograms. In school (chemical engineering) we often worked with pounds and gallons since they're common in some industries, but we were thoroughly drilled in how to convert between units.
I honestly don't see the problem with using Imperial units in daily life as long as professionals use metric in their work. In many parts of the country, roads are spaced one mile apart. Converting to metric won't change that. Refrigerators are designed to hold a gallon of milk. Converting to metric would mean either misfitting jugs or odd quantity containers.
Let the public use Imperial units. They happen to be useful for human-scale measurements. Just be sure to teach students that metric is the professional system.
AlpineR
Re:It takes a full generation to switch (Score:3, Insightful)
Why, exactly? Other than you want us to.
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't think you cannot do the same with the measurement units, since you also already *accepted* them years ago.
Re:Government legisation (Score:2, Insightful)
ISO 8601 is clear and logical. YYYY-MM-DD, in order of most significant to least significant just like normal decimal numbers.
Incidentally, Sweden where I live use 8601 dates for everything.
Re:Why change.... (Score:5, Insightful)
What, that's it?
We're getting along fine, our units of measure are, by definition, exactly as accurate as SI units. SI doesn't have a monopoly on using either decimals or prefixes, so even decimalization isn't a particularly compelling reason. There is no technical reason for a compulsory switch.
Re:great arguments... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:great arguments... (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Funny, but lame (Score:4, Insightful)
Oh please. I agree with the rest of your post, but you can't argue that imperial vs metric is about diversity vs uniformity. It's quite clearly being argued because of the difficulties in conversion, not some assault on the brave USA, willing to stand alone from the metric crowd of sheep.
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:No benefit (Score:4, Insightful)
Well, yeah, that's my point. I'm an engineer, and my American (global) Fortune 5 company is completely metric in its operations. So as a scientist (you) or engineer (me) we see the value of and use the metric system. There's no US law prohibiting us from doing so. Why, then, should we mandate that the country switch to the metric system? You and I already use it; why make Joe Blow purchase lunch meat priced at $x per 100/g?
Simply, what's the cost-benefit analysis of changing our society to the metric system?
Re:School districts votes to require 'Cubits'. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'll let you into a secret about Britain (Score:2, Insightful)
While it is easier, as someone above stated, to multiply and divide by ten, systems designed around the number 12 are more divisible. There is a reason why there will never be a metric clock, and there will never be a 500 degree circle. 360 is divisible by 1,2,3,4,5,6,8,9,10,12,15,16(nearly - 22.5),18, and 20 and on and on. By comparison 1000 - a much larger number, is divisible by 1,2,4,5,8,10,16(nearly - 62.5), and 20. 360 has 14 factors under 20, while 1000 has only 8. There are reasons to use base 12. The pyramids were built in imperial, and there ain't a lot wrong with them. Just my 2 cents.
Re:Simple answer (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I'll let you into a secret about Britain (Score:4, Insightful)
Alcohol is still sold in standard amounts in bars in metric countries too and that's what you ask for; people buy as much fruit as they need/want not a specific amount as they're sold in both bags of apples (which are neither 1 pound or 1 kilo) or loose so you can buy what you want; people order coke in cans because funnily enough you can't buy it in anything else but cans or bottles. The development of the language had nothing to do with imperial measurements; someone somewhere had to define what a pint/pound/inch actually represents and guess what it was this [wikipedia.org] in the UK.
Get a Grip (Score:3, Insightful)
There is no doubt that if you are designing a system from scratch, the metric system is superior.
There is also no doubt that if you are in science and engineering, you should be using the metric system.
But for every day use? It does not matter one tiny bit. Whatever accurately supports commerce is really all that matters. And the Imperial system works in the US.
Some dirty secrets for you all who think the rest of the world has adopted: a lot of the Commonwealth nations have adopted the metric only in an official capacity. Go to the UK and see how often you see Imperial units.
Tradesmen VASTLY Prefer imperial units (Score:3, Insightful)
So let my summarize by saying "Who will think of the rulers!" (And steel mills and pipe fittings and rolling mills and everything I'm ignorant of)
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, most of the world measures fuel economy in liters per 100km. So that should be:
40 (rods / hogshead) = 118,548 L / 100km.
Re:Funny, but lame (Score:5, Insightful)
Bullshit. In almost every metric country, type is measured in points. Certainly from my personal experience, Australia, Hong Kong, Thailand, India and the UK, which are all metric in most respects. There are proposed metric units to measure type, but they are not offically part of the SI. And the idea of a font "size" is actually fairly arbitrary and fuzzy. It's generally defined as the smallest line spacing so that the descenders of one line do not collide with the ascenders of the line below. But there are many cases where this rule is violated. Consider it more like women's dress sizes rather than relating to a specific dimension.
Of course, we can thank Adobe for embedding their definition of the point = 1/72" in PostScript (which is slightly larger then the older traditional point.) Page sizes however are often quoted in mm.
However, I suspect you are trolling. If so, well done. I also have to suspect that the site linked in the summary , http://www.freedom2measure.org/ [freedom2measure.org] may be a parody.
Could anyone write that stuff seriously?Re:What's stopping you? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Get a Grip (Score:3, Insightful)
That leads to a schizophrenic situation. Science and engineering _is_ the "every day". If Joe Sixpack goes to Home Depot to buy building materials for his house he expects his nuts and bolts and tools to be in inches but Jane The Engineer of course designed them in a metric system. So Mr. Sixpack gets bolts that are 41/89 of an inch long or something like that. Same goes for cars, are they part of the "every day" or part of the "science and engineering" the list could go on but you get the point.
Sure the kids can learn the imperial system, then learn the metrics system, then spend even more time learning how to convert between the two, during this time children in countries with normal measuring systems can learn something useful , like the Ohm's Law for example and so on.
Re:I'll let you into a secret about Britain (Score:3, Insightful)
All of these things have already occurred. (Score:4, Insightful)
Textbooks in the United States already use metric units, and have now for decades.
If the kids grow up learning metric terms, they'll see the benefits of simplicity, easier unit conversion, and so on.
Everybody in the United States under the age of forty grew up learning metric terms. Virtually nobody in the United States under the age of forty, unless such person has some specific technical reason for doing so, has any interest in using metric terms in day-to-day life.
It must be a legal requirement that wherever an amount is shown in Imperial, it must also be shown in metric.
This is already the case. A can of cola in the U.S. reads "12 fl. oz. (355 mL)". A bag of microwave popcorn states "1.5 oz. (42.5g)". A snack bar reads "1.59 oz (45g)". No consumer product is sold without both Imperial and metric measurements.
Then comes the tricky part: legislation. The resistance from the lazy public and business will be incredible - it'll be seen as one extra unnecessary expense - but it has to be done.
If the public doesn't want it, and business doesn't want it, then who exactly is supposed to benefit?
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:5, Insightful)
both are illogical even (Score:5, Insightful)
Furthermore, there is nothing nice about the sizes of metric units. Nice units are ones that eliminate pointless numeric constants. Using natural units [wikipedia.org], e=mc^2 becomes e=m. Using natural units, the ideal gas law loses the R constant. Isn't that way better?
Metric is nothing special. For example, the meter is based on an erroneous measurement across France. This bad measurement was used to estimate the size of the Earth so that the meter could be claimed to have a tie to the size of the Earth. (which isn't unchanging anyway, even if it were perfectly round!) We might as well use a foot defined as the distance traveled by light in a particular amount of time, with that time amount chosen so that a foot just happens to match King George's foot.
Base 10 isn't special either. Binary is special, and trivially convertable to the more-compact hexadecimal.
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Metric Imperialism - Globalisation the goal? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:I'll let you into a secret about USA (Score:3, Insightful)
But, what many here don't seem to realize: we also use metric for science and engineering.
Also, we are taught the metric system in school.
Cultural preservation (Score:5, Insightful)
Seeing Imperial units die out in the U.S. would be as sad as watching Welsh die out in Wales. (Knowing the sorts of people here, I imagine many of you wouldn't give a damn about either.)
Re:Canada. (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:I'll let you into a secret about Britain (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:4, Insightful)
It's not because of some magical superiorty science that normal people need either, it's mostly because multiplying by 10 is a lot easier than multiplying by 12 then 16 then 8, or whatever!
It's not easier if we were using a base-16 numbering system!
Ok, but seriously, it is an issue of context. If you're a scientist doing scientific research, by all means, use the metric system. However, for some purposes, the metric system isn't superior.
The easiest example I can think of is temperature. I've been told by lots of people that we (I'm American) should use the Celsius for temperatures. They tell me, "It makes a lot more sense, and it's more elegant. 0 degrees is the temperature that water freezes, and 100 degrees is when it boils. Think of how nice that is. It makes so much sense for cooking and scientific experiments..."
Well, that's fine, and so I support anyone who wants to use Celsius measurements for cooking or science. However, think for a second about the Fahrenheit scale. The range of 0-100 degrees is roughly the temperature in which human being can live. The exact range that's comfortable for people depends on various things, including the specific person, clothing, wind and humidity, etc. However, somewhere 100 degrees Fahrenheit is the temperature that people need to be careful about heat-stroke, and around 0 degrees is where people are in danger of freezing to death or getting frostbite, even if they're wearing warm clothes.
So while Celsius makes sense for some scientific purposes, I think Fahrenheit is where it's at for talking about weather. Likewise, if I need to estimate the length of the room and I don't have a measuring device, do you know how I do it? I walk, one foot in front of the other, and see how many steps it takes. My feet are each just about 1 foot long, and it works pretty reliably. If you want argue that meters are better for scientific purposes, manufacturing, or even construction, then by all means do so. However, different units are more appropriate for measuring different things, so don't try to tell me that I can't use Imperial units where it makes sense.
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:5, Insightful)
You're saying that because you grew up with it, but ask anyone who uses the Centigrades and they'll be able to tell you what temperature they are at (ballpark number, at least).
The units are not "Too big" either. Can you use decimal points? 22.5C
To me, Farenheit units are ridiculous and nonsensical.
Re:What's stopping you? (Score:3, Insightful)
When things get converted to Metric, it gets confusing because you don't have that internal referent.
It's like when I got some xrays done a year ago. I asked the tech how much I was getting, because I keep mental track of that because going to different doctors, I can't always be sure that everybody's
gotten a look at my chart and knows how much of a dose I've had over the last year. So, I tend to think in terms of rads or other old familiar units of measurement. When I got a figure in Milisieverts, that told me worse than nothing, because I was quoted a unit of measurement that I couldn't relate to anything at all.
And that effects other things as well. If you're working on equipment that's on the old National Standard or even the old British Imperial Measure, (a Woolrich thread on a screw has a different pitch than a US equivalent, and that's just one example) jumping back and forth between systems is asking for it.
The thing that you've missed, over all, is that the US National Standard System which derived from the old British Imperial Measure, is a system. Lots of people hold it in common. Technical standards based on that system are what you're dealing with whether it's a complex machining job or the blueprints for your house. And getting the kind of confusion that NASA had when they lost that satellite because of a confusion in systems of measurement, can be both expensive and in some cases deadly.
Sooner or later the US will change over, but it will be from economic pressure rather than political mandates. But it's not going to happen overnight as much as you'd like it to. Figure about a century,
simply because manufacturing has shifted. The US is a technological power but no longer an industrial one, and China has become the preeminent industrial power on the planet. They make most goods and when you're buying, especially on the basis of cost, you buy Chinese and the Chinese use metric. But that's going to be a slow conversion and mandating it from on high will cause you and everybody else, no end of grief.
Re:Metric Imperialism - Globalisation the goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
You say that as if having twice as many tools doesn't cost anything and doesn't take up twice as much space.
Also, how many bolts have been stripped because someone wasn't careful and tried to use an SAE wrench instead of a metric one? How much time has been wasted trying to figure out if you need SAE or metric?
But there is a huge advantage to going with only one rather than both - and since everyone else in the world uses metric, why not use it too? And actually there is a pretty big advantage to metric - you don't have to remember that there are 12 inches in a foot, 3 feet in a yard, and some other random number of yards in a mile. Pushing a decimal around is just so much easier.
I don't expect us to ever switch, but much more because we're obstinate than because of any sort of rational cost-benefit analysis.
Re:Metric Imperialism - Globalisation the goal? (Score:5, Insightful)
1. You, the engineer needed to buy two tools to do the same job.
2. Somewhere in a factory far far away, someone needed to develop two molds, one for the metric set, one for the imperial set and all the other overhead involved with selling two different products.
I agree the most Americans wouldn't want to learn something new and would rather begrudge the rest of the world (as per the norm) by doing things your own way. Think of yourselves as the Sony of countries. You only inter operate when its in your best interest.
Re:Euro-homos (Score:4, Insightful)
I think that is the one that would bother me the most!! I know how to dress if it is 32F, or 40F, or 99F.
I'd be lost with whatever the equivalents in C are...(yes, I'm too lazy to look up a converter). But really...most people in the US seldom have a need for accuracy needed in science. For daily life...the mile, mph, mpg...temperature in F is all way too ingrained into the culture and just isn't going to change anytime soon. Most people in the US have very little if any contact with any else in the world besides possibly a chat room on the internet....so, no one here generally sees any reason to change to 'go along' with the rest of the world. They don't see or touch the rest of the world, so, it pretty much doesn't exist to them.
Re:Euro-homos (Score:4, Insightful)
Supid, it is not what SI is about (Score:3, Insightful)
It is about almost not needing any calculation at all, since the few fundamental units is a basis for everything else.
How much energy does a 100 Watt bulb burn in a minute? Immediately it is 60 kilojoule, since Watt is defined as "Joules per second".
How much energy does the same bulb burn in a minute for calories? C'mon, imperial people, bring out your calculator, punch fast, and check twice!
Re:Metric Imperialism - Globalisation the goal? (Score:4, Insightful)
I live in the United States and learned the metric system in elementary school in 1975. My two children learned the metric system in elementary school just a few years ago.
Americans know the metric system. We see the units used on almost all food packaging, too. I have lived in Japan for 9 years and never had a problem with measurements there, either. I also learned SI units for physics class.
The hardest part of the metric system to me is not converting measurements, it's the intuitive feel for a liter, gram, or kilometer. My biggest hang up is temperature. I know that degrees 72F is comfortable and know that a 24C degree room is comfortable, too. However, I will always think internally in degrees Fahrenheit till the day I die. It is what it is.
Please, do not insinuate, however, that Americans do not know the metric system. You can learn it in about 5 minutes. You come off in your post as a bit arrogant and mis-guided.
Re: School districts votes to require 'Cubits'. (Score:4, Insightful)
Even if all the world standardized their feet on being a U.S. foot, that problem wouldn't disappear.
Re:Metric Imperialism - Globalisation the goal? (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you'll find that your mind is surprisingly flexible.
Personally, I started with the metric system but moved to the US when I was ten. When I left the US nine years later I was just like you - using SAE because it felt right. I've now been in Europe for four years and I've completely switched back to the metric system.
It's all a matter of what your surroundings are measured in.
Jw
Re:There are a couple of points (Score:1, Insightful)
You're not the first person to address the submitter and say, "USE THE METRIC SYSTEM". Well, d'uh. The submitter never said he didn't, so I'm going to assume that he does.
The problem is, and I run into this as well, if your organization doesn't use metric here in the US, you still have to convert everything back to Imperial.
I work in the auto industry, for a German auto manufacturer. All of the documents we receive are written with metric units. All of the documents we send out to Europe, Canada, Mexico, or almost any other country, must be done in metric. Any measurements we send out to US companies must be done in imperial units, because that's the standard of measure that any US company we deal with expects & uses. It's insanely frustrating, especially because you have to do it on a near-daily basis. The submitter wasn't "moaning", I'm venturing a guess that they favor uniformity and standardization.
Furthermore, your claim that we should just do the conversions and move on is comical, because that's obviously what is already happening. The companies that do need to convert do the conversions, and those that don't, don't. But it's a waste of time & energy to maintain two units of measure when the entire world uses one, and we insist on not converting. You said it yourself, there are thousands of US companies that use metric, so why not make that the standard?