Dealing w/ Relocation Package Bait and Switch? 443
An anonymous reader asks: "I got a R&D job offer with a large company in Philadelphia area last week. It includes a relocation package that they told me was standard for my position. After I accepted the offer and made plans to terminate my current job, the recruiter handed me off to their relocation department, where I was told that my relocation package is significantly less than what I was promised. The relocation manager tells me that whenever there is conflict between their relocation policy and the offer, their internal relocation policy supersedes. Is this type of switch-and-bait common practice in corporate America? If you have gone through this nightmare before, any advice on how to respond to it?"
Seriously consider not taking the job (Score:4, Insightful)
FWIW, I took a job cross country about a year and a half ago that included a relocation package. They handled it very professionally, and followed through with everything that they had promised. So far, it's been a good company to work for.
new one on me (Score:4, Insightful)
1) take the job
2) start job-hunting immediately
3) see if this was an anomaly or business-as-usual for a company without a moral compass.
If it's business-as-usual I'd jump ship as soon as I got another job.
If it's an anomaly I'd work from within to make sure this never happened to anyone else.
Stock reply to almost all Ask Slashdot questions (Score:5, Insightful)
In writing? (Score:3, Insightful)
Can't be trusted, hope you havent quit the old job (Score:4, Insightful)
Talk to the person who offered the package (Score:5, Insightful)
Contact the person who originally told you about the relocation package, and tell them that the 'Relocation Manager' isn't offering the same thing. Ask them to deal with the issue, or make a counter offer and tell them what you're willing to take in exchange for the lower package (eg, higher pay, alternative benefits).
I've gotten the bait & switch on jobs before (my second day on the job, job responsibilities changed dramatically)-- my suggestion is deal with it as soon as possible, but don't become adversarial with the HR department -- have the person who hired you deal with them.
Re:Stock reply to almost all Ask Slashdot question (Score:5, Insightful)
Uhm (Score:3, Insightful)
So why not try talking to the hiring manager first? It could be that someone doing the relocation is just taking their duties a little too seriously.
Speak personally to someone senior (Score:5, Insightful)
There's more to this: (Score:5, Insightful)
If you don't have it in writing, talk to the person that extended you the original offer. Depending on what they do, you may or may not decide to take it/stay. Make sure whatever you agree to is in writing. Basically, any company that did something like this would be way in the hole and would have to work to keep any reasonable person.
If you haven't quit your old job, or you gave notice but haven't left and they're really sorry to see you go, indicate you might be interested in staying. This would involve playing the "what can you do for me" game. You certainly don't want to be honest about why you're reconsidering. Say something to your boss along the lines of "I would have liked to have seen project X to completion. It is going to be great!" or something like that. Perhaps they can sweeten your current job and you can both save face and your sanity by "accepting" the offer.
Re:You do (Score:2, Insightful)
The only way to prevent this kind of crap from continuing and spreading (c'mon, do you really think there aren't HR people reading this right now and drooling?) is to make it public. Maybe after they have a lot of problems getting people to even interview with them they will rethink their policy.
I urge the original poster to publish the name of these asshats!
Re:You do (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:new one on me (Score:2, Insightful)
As long there's no term of service clause. Meaning, unless you work for the company for X amount of years or months, you have to pay back the moving expense or a pro-rated amount.
Watch out!
Don't Forget (Score:4, Insightful)
In any of these questions there are not enough facts to really figure out what happened. Yes, while this person accepting the new job may get screwed don't jump to the conclusion that the company is backstabbing and that the new employee should quit. This just might be some dumb manager who doesn't have a clue--or maybe a smart manager who didn't get the email on what the standard relocation package is now. There is way too much missing information.
Legally, there may or may not be a contract. You can have a verbal contract which is binding, however, the hard part is proving the existence and details of the contract. Also, the newly hired employee might have a claim for induced reliance--the company induced him to quit his or her old job (maybe, because we really don't know when things happened) and because of that promise of relocation money he is out of a job. There is a potential claim here, but there is so much more that is needed before the new employee heads off to court.
Like someone pointed out he should go back to the hiring manager and find out if they can do anything. But the real lesson is that you don't quit your old job before you have all the details of the new job worked out first.
Run. (Score:4, Insightful)
This kind of bullshit is endemic to a company, if you have to deal with it here, you'll have to deal with it once you get there and start working. This is how you end up stuck in a job you hate, and stuck in the city they moved you to.
From a contract point of view, his claim is utterly false. It dosen't matter if it's not in writing, since you relied on the promise, it was reasonably foreseeable that you would do so, and this has harmed you - but that means suing your employer. That never ends well.
Seriously, don't work for these people.
-GiH
Re:No No No (Score:3, Insightful)
thats simply not true. typical liberal entitlement mentality
It's wrong to think that you're entitled to something that somebody, reasonably empowered to do so, told you were going to get, in writing? Can you please explain that logic to me? Apparently somebody else agrees with you too, as you're currently +1 Insightful.
If a liberal mentality means refusing to be screwed over by an employer that can't get it's representatives on the same page with regards your compensation, then I'm happy to be a liberal. I guess conservatives are happy with being compensated at less than the agreed on rate? Or was I simply trolled?
Re:Talk to the person who offered the package (Score:5, Insightful)
I second that motion. While this certainly smells bad for the company as a whole, it's quite possible you've just got a jobsworth or jackass in HR dealing with you, so don't write the whole company off just yet. HR never made a penny of profit for any company, their job is to save money by ensuring staff retention and quality recruitment. In this instance, they are not doing either and are just getting in the way, so bypass them. Speak (as in phone, not email - practice what you need to say and make notes if you're not great on the phone) to whoever actually wants you to work at the company - the person who gave you the technical interview. Let them know you're unhappy with the situation (you evidently are) and how significant a factor the relocation package was in your decision to take the job (it evidently was significant), then give them some time to deal with the situation. Expect to have to negotiate to some extent - the person who hired you will likely be negotiating within the company too (it may have been their screw-up giving you incorrect information or exceeding their power).
I'm assuming, as you've posted to slashdot, that this is a technical job. If it's HR or admin take the job anyway - you'll have more power than you deserve and will enjoy weilding it! But let us know where it is your new job is, so the rest of us can avoid it :)
Re:No No No (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You do (Score:2, Insightful)
Oh? You wanted the complete offer in writing? I'm sorry. You must accept and sign that offer in one week or it will be retracted. We're sorry. We can't make any changes to the language of the offer. That's dictated by the legal department. Would you like to be homeless instead? That's the only offer you're getting.
Maybe you've never been screwed. Maybe you've always been handed a prime piece of pie. The fact is this: companies love to play hardball to screw employees especially when it comes to NDAs, pre-employment agreements, and relocation packages.
Uh, Hanlon's Razor? (Score:5, Insightful)
Uh, did everyone forget Hanlon's Razor?
Make a polite phone call to the person who made the original offer and tell them what happened. Maybe they can straighten things out. If they can't fix it, or they don't admit they promised it, you have learned something useful about a possible future employer with no risk to yourself or reputation.
-Jeff
You forgot to add (Score:5, Insightful)
Call list (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 2. Call the HR Director, tell him you're hopping mad and you expect him to honor the relocation terms specified in the job offer. Wait 24 hours and spend the time tracking down the phone number of the relevant office at the state corporation commission for the state in which you were to have worked. Call and get the name of an actual case worker there. If the HR Director does not have good news, advise him that you have spoken with so-and-so at the state corporation commission and intend to file a fraud complaint.
Step 3. Beg your current boss to keep you on for a while. You'll still have to find a new job pronto but at least you'll keep the paychecks coming for a while.
Step 4. Call your would-be boss again. Advise him that you rescind your acceptance of the offer due to fraud on the part of the HR department.
Step 5. Spend $200 with a lawyer to see if you are entitled to any damages as a result of the company's fraud.
Step 6. Post a hate-page on the web, but stick to the straight facts so they can't sue you for libel. Step 6 is optional but it feels so good.
Note that if they refuse to honor the terms of the offer they made you, the job is lost. I know you don't want to give up on it but do yourself a favor: walk away. If they'll screw you this blatently at the front end, they'll screw you far worse down the line when you're already moved.
It doesn't matter whose fault it is (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:You do (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You do (Score:5, Insightful)
Sometimes your new manager will intervene, but the main thing is to make sure the person you are working for is given a chance to help.
An external recruiter may possible have mis-interpreted the information, or may be using old information.
Finally, were you so interested in a new job that you did not hear or read? It could be your own fault if you were listening and not reading the information from the company.
Re:You do (Score:4, Insightful)
Employee: wait! the hiring manager said the relocation benefit would be $X! This says it's only $Y.
HR: It's company policy.
Employee: but I have it in writing. In Writing!!
HR: But there's nothing to say we still have to give you the job. If you want to be pedantic we'll hire you for 5 minutes and then fire you. Now do you want the new deal or not?
Employee: but I already quit my job and sold my house!
HR: just sign on the dotted line.
Re:You do (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:You do (Score:0, Insightful)
I'd ask for couple of DAYS to review it. Don't rush it. Make sure it's what you want!
Here's what to do (Score:3, Insightful)
At the same time, tell your current employer that you may be available for contracting.
If the hiring manager doesn't fix it, or tells you that they can't, then look for work elsewhere. Getting a promise pulled out from you during the *offer* period is surely an indication that you'll get more of this once you're hired, and are less likely to leave. Life's too short to work for a place like that.
Good luck with this, and remember to be polite but firm, and start lining up other interviews now in case the offer isn't resolved.
--Pat
Re:Seriously consider not taking the job (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm glad I did. The international relocation was a good deal.
I would seriously consider not taking the job if they don't try to fix it quickly.
On the other hand, I did apply for a job at one place (local) and was hired and was to report Monday morning. I arrived Monday morning with my toolbox and was informed it was not to start work, but to be interviewed by the department head. I let them know I had been hired and was ready to start work and they had serious communication issues. Then I left. I kept track of them and they failed a short time later. First impressions go a long way and are often right.
Re:You do (Score:5, Insightful)
So then don't take the friggin job. (Score:5, Insightful)
Unemployment does suck, but relocating to a new city with no support system (family, friends, etc.) and into a job where they are doing this kind of thing the first day sucks more. You think you're going to have any kind of job security there?
-j
Thank you Dr Cynicism (Score:4, Insightful)
I know I may come across casual and naive, but years of experience working in and with companies has told me that if they are screwing you at day 0, then every day from that point forward will be misery. In a way, your cynicism is well placed - something is wrong here. But to roll over and present your genitalia without stating something just screws you in the long run. Better to have a clear contract upfront and know where the lines are, instead of having some bureaucrat use their discretion.
The thing is, there are people and places that are fully above-board. Even in corporate America. Even corporations. The problem is when people use their psychological contracts instead of real contracts. Business is business,and you should never expect more than a written contract asserts. If all you have is someone's word, you don't have anything. If their word is truly good, they won't have a problem writing it down.
Why are you even asking this? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm surprised you're even bothering to ask advice about this situation--it seems like a no-brainer to me.
Moving across the country to accept a new job involves significant risk. You are taking a leap into the unknown. You might decide that you really hate your new location, or that you can't find a place to live at a price you can afford. You might find that the job is not to your liking, that your boss is an abusive jerk, or any of a long list of other possible negatives. Plus there is the possibility of financial loss, and the certainty of high stress involved in making any geographical move. If you have a family, the risks and stress become much greater.
The only factor to counterbalance all these negatives is your faith in your new employer: you are trusting them to deliver on the promises they made to you with respect to your job duties and working conditions--and with helping to compensate you for the financial cost of moving, as was promised to you.
The key word here is trust. Sometimes, you just have to go with your gut instincts, and trust people. But trusting people whose actions show a lack of good faith is a dumb thing to do; it's like asking to be abused.
It may be that the headhunter knowingly made false promises to you so that he could get his commission. But the headhunter represents the employer, not you--he is their agent. Depending on exactly what happened, the employer may very well have a moral obligation to keep the headhunter's promise to you--but even that isn't the heart of the issue. The bottom line is this: if these people really wanted to hire you, then they would go out of their way to make you happy, to make you feel good about taking this job. They haven't done that, have they?
As for legalities, like "get it in writing, stupid", they're irrelevant in a situation like this. A deal is a deal, whether it's written on paper or spoken. If the other party breaks the deal before you've made any real investment in it, walk away. It really doesn't matter if the law is on your side or not. The law won't buy back wasted time, suffering or broken marriages. This is not a legal matter, it's a matter of common sense.
I hope you don't feel any moral obligation to take this job. You have been released from any such obligation by their show of bad faith. Write a letter to the employer's HR department telling them politely that you are refusing their job offer and why; be sure to cc it to the CEO and the headhunter.
I hope you haven't already given notice to your present employer. If you have, do anything you must to get them to let you stay. Chances are that you are a valuable employee, and they will be glad you're not leaving.
Re:new one on me (Score:4, Insightful)
1) take the job
2) start job-hunting immediately
3) see if this was an anomaly or business-as-usual for a company without a moral compass.
If it's business-as-usual I'd jump ship as soon as I got another job.
This would be an appropriate course of action if relocation wasn't an option. But relocating 2x possibly across the country each time back to back sucks.
In this situation, I would go back to my old job and ask them if I can stay. The last 2 jobs I resigned from offered me counter offers when I resigned. I don't know what this guy's situation is like at his old job, but he may be able to renegotiate with them at least until he finds a better job.
reflections (Score:5, Insightful)
Work with your hiring manager... (Score:4, Insightful)
Your hiring manager is your champion. They are the one that justified your extravagant salary to the higher-ups. They are the one that made HR find you. They are the one that wants you and not those other scrubs that applied and even interviewed. They know the ins and outs of their company and can get the right wheels greased in seconds. Just give them a call and tell them there is a snag on their end that you would appreciate some help with.
Be reasonable, but firm and insist that they correct this and stick to the agreement or you are going to be in a very awkward position. While already quitting your current job may make it feel like you've lost leverage, you are still in a strong position because you haven't started working with the new company yet--they don't want to lose you! Especially over something they already said you could have.
As a regular hiring manager, I've seen my share of great candidates get lost because of HR's mistakes. One of my peers lost a great candidate because HR stood too firm on the salary offer, when he called the candidate to find out what happened he discovered that they guy only needed $2K more to say yes!! For some reason, HR failed to discover this and had too much ego to make the deal happen, sending this hiring manager back into the process over $2K.
Call your new boss, he'll sort it out. If he doesn't, walk--you didn't want to move anyway.
it's obvious (Score:1, Insightful)
What every reply so far is missing is the part about "they have a policy that the relocation policy supersedes any offer". If they *have a policy* about it, this is common and is probably done intentionally to sweeten the offer.
Re:You do (Score:3, Insightful)
I've noticed that persons with the title "recruiter" tend to stretch the truth more than most. Just an observation.
DO NOT accept this offer (Score:3, Insightful)
Imagine how it will be on day two, month six, year one. It can only get worse.
Decline. And do them a favour - do it in writing, and tell them why.
Re:You do (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, an offer by a company is a legally binding contract and if they fire you without cause that is illegal as well. And there is a huge difference between not keeping the promises of someone who is not an employee and breaking promises the company put in writing.
I think this is a simple case of the scumbag recruiter making promises the company is not aware of. And the company feeling bitter about you being stupid enough to use a recruiter. Freelance recruiters are evil. They make hiring you more expensive when you should be perfectly capable of finding these employers yourself. Also if the company is desperate enough for new hires they use recruiters, there is probably a reason they have a hard time keeping people. Lastly, you will always have a black mark on you from HR's point of view, as the person so stupid they couldn't find the company in the phonebook. And they will be reminded of your stupidity every time they cut a fat cheque to the scumbag recruiter who is exploiting your stupidity.
Finally, I have to add that a company that employs a full time recruiter on staff is an entirely different story. That is just a professional approach to the situation by the company, which shows intelligence, and doesn't have all the downsides of freelance recruiters.
Re:You do (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:reflections (Score:3, Insightful)
It is a little unclear if it was the recruiting agency that is being shady, or the company itself. If it is the recruiting agency, maybe you can shake it off (while still being pissed about eating those costs). However, if the company itself is being shady, I would continue looking for another job, either while you are at the new place, or just staying where you are.
This is a BAD sign of things to come. I am interviewing right now, and I have a test I give to companies I interview at. I give them a very reasonable salary range 10k wide, but if they don't come in at the highest end of it, I don't accept the offer. Why? They either didn't like me enough to really want me on the team (I might just be filling a seat needing to be filled), or they are cheap, and every salary negotiation you are going to have in the future is going to be a battle, and similar to squeezing water out of a rock. The market, at least in my niche of the software world is very good, and I can afford to do this. I also take the risk that by not reaching a little bit, I might be cutting myself short by 5-10k or so, but I make a comfortable living as it is.
Remember the company is getting interviewed also. That interview continues until you are sitting in their chair. If during the interview they offered you a free coffee and then charged you for it on the way out, would you even consider working there?
Missing suggestion (Score:3, Insightful)
Most companies large enough to claim that kind of intransigent policy also have an ombudsman. Find out who it is at the new company, and discuss the matter with him (or her). If there isn't one, consider it strike two against ever taking a job with them. If there is, discussing the matter indicates a willingness to work to solve problems from within. In some cases, the ombudsman may have enough authority to solve the problem on the spot; if not, they can almost always make those involved (the HR rep, your hiring manager, and the headhunter) all line up and get their stories consistent, and probably in writing.
I'd make the headhunter the next focus. Make it clear that you understood such-and-such to be the offer, and he now not only needs to resolve the apparent discrepancy, but explain to you how and where the "confusion" arose so you can determine not only whether to back out, but whether the company, the headhunter personally, or both should be avoided in the future. The phrase "litigation is not a preferred option" may make a nice mantra. Try to avoid burning bridges, but be prepared to hold a lifetime grudge with clean conscience.
And, speaking of the future, add to your permanent list of dealbreakers: personal copies of all company policies that will apply to you at the start of employment must be provided to you in printed form for your review (with legal counsel) prior to final acceptance of employment, with a cover letter listing the policies by name and assuring completeness of the list. Make sure all aspects of the offer are in writing. In important non-dealbreakers, you now may want to put identifying the ombudsman on your pre-acceptance checklist as well, and consider paying a lawyer to review employment offers for booby traps.
Most important, take this as a learning experience: possibly painful, but non-fatal.
Re:You do (Score:3, Insightful)
Those who do system implementations or web development or database administration are generally employees in a non-IT industry. Like healthcare, or oil & gas. Yes, there is technology, but in general, we follow the processes that are used by the rest of the employees in our company.
Those who do software development [a smaller percentage than you'd expect] generally follow an accepted methodology, their code is reviewed by their peers, and is tested for quality. Those who develop micro processors are forced to follow the rules of physics, as well as maintain compatibility with a stringent criteria. These are people in the 'fledgling' IT industry.
The fact that you are having difficulty finding work in your field in the city / town that you reside in is not representative of all industries across all locations. You may need to be re-trained to have market value in your industry. Those of us with IT roles in non-it fields are constantly in need of re-training in order to remain competitive.
The world does not stand still.
Re:You do (Score:1, Insightful)
If I were homeless - even in La Jolla - I'd be spending every waking moment getting a job or inmproving my situation in some other manner. And when I did have access to the net, I' be scanning the want ads and pushing my resume.
Please, either quit complaining about being homeless, or do something to fix it.
Re:You do (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You do (Score:5, Insightful)
ALTHOUGH...
As I understand the law (not being an attorney myself, of course), you do have some legal recourse... anyone that makes an offer (written, verbal, or otherwise) that you have accepted and relied on (to your detriment if they don't hold up their end of the bargain) has entered into a legally binding contract, and you are entitled to hold them to the terms of the original agreement. The person who first made you the offer was acting as an official representative of the company, and you were negotiating in good faith relying on their promise. They are obligated to give you what they promised, or you can sue.
But really now, do you honestly want to work for a company:
-that can't keep its hiring practices straight?
-where one hand doesn't know or care what the other is doing?
-that has to lie to you just to get you to accept the offer?
-is willing to renege on even the most simple of promises?
-thinks you're not worth dealing honestly with BEFORE you're an employee?
If you answered "yes" to any of the following questions, you should just accept the new offer and accept your honorary 'Dilbert' pin.
I read the relocation package- (Score:3, Insightful)
Then there was the fees for the houses, and the clauses for required realtors (point shaving). Then the additional fees that were covered (mortage insurance thru special lenders) that were 50% above the going rate.
It's not as if having it in writing by the base company is something particular- it is probably farmed out to the cheapest group that's going to find every opportunity to tack on fees (sticking it to your new employer) and possibly (*worst case*) impacting your mortgage rates.
Good luck- I don't see alot of remedies in this situation EXCEPT to contact the original offer-er and ask him to have his super work something out with HR on this. If you're that good, they'll swing it. Otherwise negotiate for another week of paid vacation and consider it a learning experience.
Fucked up blame meme (Score:3, Insightful)
"You should just expect companies to do anything at all to make more money. It was your fault for expecting ethical behavior, not their fault for [lying/stealing/polluting/killing foreigners]."
Yes, it sure as hell IS someone's fault if they behave unethically. Sometimes it is ALSO your fault for believing in them when you had good reason not to. Both can be true at the same time.
But regardless of anything else, it is absolutely that politician, CEO, stockbroker, etc.'s fault when they behave like an ass. Work on the problem from both ends by recognizing that they will sometimes act like the crooks they are, while at the same time holding their feet over the coals for their specific malfeasances.
Re:You do (Score:3, Insightful)
Nothing in the world makes me trust an opinion about the law than someone who can't use an ellipsis correctly. (Every single one the parent has used in this article should be a comma.)
For anyone else reading this: if you want to try self-incorporation, hire a tax law attorney. You'll be subject to at least one of fifty distinct legal structures (more, if your work crosses state lines), in addition to the IRS, and you'll need to navigate each and every tax law code with enough due diligence to survive an audit.
If you don't think it's worth it to hire an attorney just for one of you, pool your services with a few co-workers you trust and form a single S-Corp (or other recommended structure.) You'll cut your bookkeeping costs, be able to be more flexible to your clients, and be significantly less likely of having your S-corp invalidated for tax evasion.
There's a reason lawyers get paid the big bucks.
Repeat After Me (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't put up with that crap. When you get that vascillating prick on the phone and he spews superseding reprioritization of denatured pre-hire compensation, you can say, "Well, that is very interesting to know. Will you please communicate to the hiring manager that I can no longer accept the position because you, Mr. HR Monkey, saw fit to breach good faith and contradict the offer that the manager made and reduced the relocation package that I was relying upon in making the decision to sell my home and relocate to your state? Yes, please do go ahead and explain that to him. I'll let him know to expect your call. Good day."
Then you hang up, and shit gets fixed.
Five Minutes? (Score:4, Insightful)
Pah, another amateur lawyer. Legally, firing somebody is not that simple. Yeah, technically you can fire folks for any number of reasons. In the real business world, firing people is not something you do if you can avoid it. For one thing, it's is expensive, because you need to document that you did everything correctly. If you don't document a termination carefully, you could end up getting in legal trouble for what someone claims you did, and have no proof that you acted correctly.
(I'm actually speaking from personal experience, and no, I'm not going to share the details.)
The fact is, this dude's problem is not "bait and switch". That's when somebody knowingly makes a substitution. No sane manager is going to start a new hire out by screwing him: it's formula for disaster. What obviously happened was the manager making promises that the HR department doesn't feel bound to honor. The left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing — not an uncommon thing in large organizations.
Confrontation is a lose-lose here. If the potential employee goes in thinking, "They're out to screw me!" it's going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy: either he'll walk away from a job he disrupted his life to take, or he'll start a new job totally pissed off at the people he works for (not a formula for professional success!). For their part, the company has invested a lot of effort into hiring this guy, and made business plans on the assumption he was going to start work. They have a vested interest in making him happy, even if they show the usual bureaucratic stupidity in fulfilling their own interests.
So forget about who's the good guy and who's the bad guy. The dude needs to express his disappointment, respectfully but firmly, to both the HR bureaucrats and the manager that made him the negated offer. Everybody here has motivation to work out a comprimise; nobody should waste time being self-righteous.
Remember... (Score:2, Insightful)