New Motherboards Disallowing IDE Booting? 183
wattsup asks: "It seems that bootable IDE ports are disappearing on newer motherboards. I recently purchased an
MSI G965M-FI motherboard for a system upgrade. Overall the board is pretty good with lots of features, but it had one unexpected 'feature' that I didn't know about when I bought it. The PATA100 IDE port won't allow you to install an operating system from an attached CD-ROM. Does anybody know if this is an issue that can be fixed by
upgrading the BIOS, or is this hard-wired into the IDE controller?"
"While its on their website, MSI doesn't tell you this on the retail packaging, until you break the seal on the static wrap and look at the motherboard. There, with a tiny label placed over the IDE connector, they inform you 'This IDE
does not support OS installation in hard drive'.
This made my out-of-box experience rather maddening, as I had to get a USB based CD-ROM to install a fresh copy of XP. This seems like a pretty lame way to save money, disabling functionality on an IDE port that's included. Some research shows me that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. Why?"
This made my out-of-box experience rather maddening, as I had to get a USB based CD-ROM to install a fresh copy of XP. This seems like a pretty lame way to save money, disabling functionality on an IDE port that's included. Some research shows me that other manufacturers are doing the same thing. Why?"
Ah, the JMicron IDE controller. (Score:5, Informative)
Warning: JMicron inside. (Score:5, Informative)
I recently tossed a pair of USB external HD enclosures, with JMicron chips on the bridge boards, in the trash. Under heavy load the USB device would just drop off the bus. Warning: JMicron inside.
Me, throwing away hardware - that's pretty rare (ask my wife - the one time I throw away hardware it's because they hosed her photo album - she can't win). Also, lesson learned: don't run RAID on two of the same bridge chips - they're likely to fail at the same time.
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The lack of PATA support in the ICH8 chip normally paired with the 965 is what leads to addition of the JMicrom IDE controllers for PATA.
If a board can't talk to the PATA drives without added drivers,
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I have an Adaptec SCSI card and an SATA card in one of my machines (the latter because the mobo had a POS Sil 2114 that causes massive dta corruption), and it can boot off of those just fine. They are effectively random hardware dropped into the box, and the machine boots from them (ABit NF7-S v2)
I had another machine that could boot from both devices as well. I don't see why the fact that the controller is not built in
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Question for 200 (Score:2)
Bonus for another 50: If people go cheap on the mainboard, you think they have extra money for new hardware? Or why do you think they took the cheaper mainboard in the first place?
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So if you don't care about $10, why don't you take a $10 note from your pocket now, and throw it in the bin?
The truth is, a PATA optical drive is cheaper than a SATA one, and just as good. So the extra $10 buys nothing of any value to the customer. If we all spend $10 on something useless, the hardware industry makes millions selling us useless junk. Why should we allow them to do that?
The new chipsets (Score:5, Informative)
As most boards are configured, the bios could boot off of an ide based DVD drive, but when the modern OS gets control, it will not see the ide ports since it isn't part of the chipset. Just like scsi needs drivers (or modules) loaded, the new ide will need these too. Ultimately, intel made the decision to use the pins needed for 2 separate ide ports for many more sata ports.
What about Game DRM? (Score:2, Interesting)
Well SATA CDs are SCSI too (IIRC). What happens as games refuse to recognize your perfectly normal SATA DVD drive? And, of course, the game publishers response will be to go F' yourself
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Next question.
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Huh? IDE's IDE. Doesn't matter whether it's part of the chipset or not, the OS will probe the standard range of ports for the controller (0x1F0 - 0x1F7, 0x170 - 0x177) and if it is there, it will find it.
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No, not in all cases. The most common chip [jmicron.com] attaches to the usb bus. It is not configured by standard port I/O, thus the whole problem of not being able to boot PATA devices.
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This is one of the main things that made linuxbios possible! The amount
You're IDE is on your USB (Score:4, Informative)
1 IDE port by JMicron JMB20335."
You can locate that part on JMicron's website [jmicron.com]
I haven't found a datasheet on it yet, but my assumption would be that chip doesn't allow booting. Essentially what you have is an MSI board without IDE support. Because that sucks, they integrated the JM20335, a USB to PATA bridge chip, much like what's likely used inside your USB CD-Rom drive. Unfortunately, it would seem this USB chip is non-bootable, like many USB Flash drives... Remember, I'm speculating on that outcome as I haven't found a datasheet.
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But wait, what's worse is that that is a USB-to-IDE interface, which mean
Why? (Score:5, Insightful)
(Which is understandable given that they need to maximise profit and removing features that are almost unused in their target market is a good way to do it. Real engineers don't overspec!)
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Or maybe it's a security feature designed so that, when deployed in a work environment, employees can't boot Linux distros off of CDs?
Then it should be an option in the BIOS's configuration screen, or at least a jumper that can be turned on or off. There should be a way for IT personnel in a work environment to initially install Linux distros for the use of employees, and there should be a way for employees in a work environment whose business is reviewing Linux distros to start these Linux distros.
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If it can't boot off an IDE CD, so can't the tech who should fix it.
If they put a SATA CD in, so the tech can, so can you.
What CDs should the average non-tech worker insert into a company computer anyway?
It simply makes no sense.
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Intel removing 'legacy' interfaces (Score:3, Informative)
The answer is simply that the P965 chipset has no native PATA controllers in it and so motherboard manufactures provide support for these legacy interfaces (decided as legacy by Intel) through a 3rd party controller chip which is not controlled by the BIOS and requires device drivers to be used. Motherboard manufactures have realised the continued need for PATA ports which is why they are kind enough to provide the extra chip. So no BIOS update will fix this and yes it is a trend, pushed by Intel (and potentially other chipset manufacturers), which will continue. It could be considered that Intel's decision to drop PATA was a little premature due to the relative lack of SATA DVD drives, but DVD drive manufactures have said that the majority sold with finally be SATA by the second half of 07.
Re:Intel removing 'legacy' interfaces (Score:5, Insightful)
Yes. It's definitely news for nerds. I'm a pretty big nerd, and I wouldn't have known about this had it not shown up on
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If you goto the technical specs for this board they say
Special note: The JMicron IDE port does not support OS installation on IDE hard drive. A system/primary drive connected to the IDE port will not be bootable.
Re:Intel removing 'legacy' interfaces (Score:5, Insightful)
I believe it should. Reading all the comments so far, I've found out there's a feature-lacking controller chipset that at least one motherboard manufacturer uses without labelling this boot "feature" in a clear way on the packaging (without having to break the seals). I do buy motherboards on occasion, and I sure would have been frustrated to find this out on my own. If this is a new trend, then I prefer to hear about these kinds of issues beforehand.
Many times, what one thinks is a trend or a common way of thinking is news to everybody else. I had one slashdotter reply to me not long ago saying that IPMI was a standard now. Funny how that is, since I deal with Sun, HP, and IBM servers, and none of them use Intel's IPMI spec, at least as far as remote management is concerned. I don't think he meant to troll, I just think he got caught up in his own corner -- as probably happens to me in other areas too.
To me, this type of discussion is valuable. Many (most? almost all?) people still use PATA devices, and PATA devices are still being sold right alongside the SATA devices (and still possibly in greater quantities for PATA). There are a lot of people affected by this "trend" and possibly directly affected by this chipset.
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Yes. Given how DRM continues to become more and more invasive in everything we try to do on our PCs, and the legality of shrink wrap and click through contracts not concrete yet, I find hardware makers quietly and arbitrarily removing features people expect on products a very big deal indeed.
Can you not see a TCPM tinted future where your very storage devices refuse to accept data for writing that contain copyright flags?
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I boot from a Compact Flash card that is plugged into the IDE port via a small simple adapter. It's simple because the CF interface *is* an IDE interface, plug extra lines for power. So if the IDE port is not longer a bootable interface, how to boot from CF in the future? Will there be a SATA to CF interface?
BTW, booting from CF is nice. It's fast, and you don't have to worry that the OS won't come up due to some hard drive failure. It also provides a nice place to stick in some read-only filesystem s
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I'm getting a bit elderly here and maybe my memory isn't as good as it might be. But isn't hiding implementation details like whether an IDE interface is on an auxiliary chip pretty much why we have BIOSes in the first place? Seem
Use a dongle? (Score:3, Informative)
Did the website update? (Score:2, Informative)
which is the same thing the posted indicated was on the sticker.
MSI didn't just update because of a
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This would kill my use for the board as a server for example, as I like to boot my servers from a small (otherwise unused) HDD or CF card, using the big drives for storage instead. I refuse to have storage on my system root drive, and why waste the space of a large capacity drive?
-nB
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If you really want to do this then I would suggest a USB flash drive instead of the CF or a SATA to IDE adapter.
Yes it would be great if this board would boot from the IDE but it looks like that is currently impossible.
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BartPE is good but it's no server. Damn PITA.
-nB
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Windows costs money and linux and bsd work just fine from USB and is free as in beer and speech.
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Going to the tech page on the board gives a Special note: The JMicron IDE port does not support OS installation on IDE hard drive. A system/primary drive connected to the IDE port will not be bootable.
You know what else doesn't work? The B drive! (Score:2, Insightful)
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Just, not in the floppy drive.
Poor orphaned letter B (Score:2)
hehe was actually planning on setting one up this way.
But, yes, the B-drive went away some time ago. No idea why they stopped supporting 2, they still have a connector/controller for one so they can't be saving anything.
The ones that only recognize one drive will recognize the old floppy-based tape drives given the 'right' drivers and programs (that they took out of windows XP) Hehe, impressed myself by getting the old tape to work under winXP then I (me myself and I, not MS) deci
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Backwards compatibility (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not pick up a SATA CD/DVD drive? You can probably get an unboxed OEM for about $30. You might also be able to get a SATA -> IDE adaptor, but I don't have any experience with them.
It's very difficult to be backwards compatible with everything. Ignoring cost, it adds complexity and difficulty to the development process; and could potentially reduce reliability. As another poster in the thread added, Intel decided to go for more SATA ports in the chipset.
Let's face it, it's 2007, and IDE is quickly on its way out. Why should we hamper a chipset with functionality needed so that you can save $30?
I do empasize with you. This weekend I picked up a Mac Pro, and much to my surprise, I can't run dual monitors unless both are digital. (I can't bear to part with my 17" CRT.) I tried transfering my PCI video card from my old desktop, but it seems that the Mac Pro doesn't use PCI.
Now if I could only get Windows Vista to run on my P100!
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It didn't help that most of the commonly used SATA chipsets were horribly buggy when SATA first started to get popular. That had to discourage ATAPI device manufacturers (who have a tendency to bring out bugs in whatever they're attached to) from adopting t
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Looks like I have exceeded my upgrade window...
IDE Zip 100 - Virtually useless (of course the same holds true now)
3.5" Floppy - Virtually useless (no one uses floppies anymore)
200 GB IDE HD - Useless (SATA needed now)
ATAPI DVD Burner - Useless (SATA ne
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Because as of right now, they're hard to get hold of. My usual supplier, a well-known UK mail order supplier, has a grand total of 6 SATA models, 4 of which are out of stock, compared to a total of 76 models in PATA. The cheapest in-stock PATA model costs about 1/2 the price of the cheapest SATA one. If you're looking for DVD+-RW, the saving is only about 25% for going SATA, but it is still cheaper.
The question is, why
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If IDE is on the way out, what will the next generation of Compact Flash cards use for their interface so they are bootable? Currently, they do IDE. If they would do SATA, that could be very cool because there would be a lot fewer pins to break.
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I don't expect them to be backwards compatible with everything. I do expect them to be backwards compatible with a standard that the majority of people are still using. We aren't talking about support for 5.25" floppy drives here, and we certainly aren't talking about trying to run Vista on a P100.
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Good. Now try using that dongle with TWO monitors, like the guy said.
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Yeah, I figured out how to use the dongle. The computer can't handle analog side-by-side with digital. (But if I boot with just the CRT, it works fine.) Odd, huh? Maybe the update that came in last night fixed it...
The good news is that I now have my desk back!
Use a floppy (Score:2, Informative)
Smart Boot Manager (Score:4, Informative)
SBM pulls up a nice list of every bootable device on your system (including ones that aren't supported by the BIOS), and lets you boot from them.
use AMD / ATI or nvidia chip sets (Score:2)
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On the other hand, I believe Intel has done a better job than nvidia of releasing hardware documentation for their video chips, so if you're getting a mobo whose onboard video you're planning to use, that might be a reason to prefer Intel. (I don't think Intel sells separate, retail-packaged video cards.)
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Why won't my MFD drive work!? (Score:3, Funny)
Honestly here, IDE(PATA) is a dieing format. It has a competitor that is just as cheap and even better performing. A new 250GB SATA hard drive and SATA CD/DVD burner can be yours for just over $100.
-Rick
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That does work but SATA may not. (Score:2)
I mean, I've had this 20 meg MFD drive for like 15 years now, why can't modern computers keep up with something so simple!?
The last time I tried that, the 2.2 kernel saw and used the drive. I'm glad it did, because that made the final backup a single 20 mb file instead of a bunch of floppies.
I don't mind hardware makers abandoning hardware, so long as they are not secretive about the new hardware. Unfortunately, SATA makers have been not shared and there are many problems with SATA for GNU/Linux. Thi
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Thanks!
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From my usual supplier:
PATA DVD-RW drive: £17
SATA DVD-RW drive: £23
Advantage of using SATA for connecting an optical drive: zero.
Whilever there's a price difference like this, you'll find a lot of people don't think PATA is dead. I just bought a new shop-built PC that came with PATA hard disks and DVD drive. OK, it was a low end model, but while new machines are being supplied with an old technology, that technology isn't dead.
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Except that new motherboards coming out do not support bootable PATA. That's a pretty big advantage if you ask me.
"...but while new machines are being supplied with an old technology, that technology isn't dead."
And as long as English is commonly spoken, it is not dead either. That's why I said it is a "Dieing" standard, as in it is depricated, being fazed out, being given the boot, it's been sacked, it's a has been... It's not dead, but there
Re:Why won't my MFD drive work!? (Score:4, Funny)
English may not be dead yet, but you and those infamous "loosers" are making a good attempt at killing it
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Dying != DEAD. You don't remove backwards compatibility until 99% of the old hardware is gone.
You see those serial, PS2, and parallel ports on your motherboard? They're dying too, but I'd be mad if they were removed in the next few years.
SATA isn't as cheap as IDE. The different, last I looked, was 10-$15. On drives that are expensive to begin with, they might just hide that ~5% price differe
MFM, not MFD (Score:2)
-Rick
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-Rick
About time (Score:2)
As for those who choose to insist on nursing obsolete drives; older designs will continue to remain available for what should be su
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Been looking forward to boards that don't have obsolete parallel connectors all over.
You then go on to suggest a parallel PCI card. Doesn't that also qualify as an obsolete parallel connector? :-)
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They still aren't. None of my local shops or usual mail order suppliers stock SATA DVD- or CD-ROM drives. Some of them have writers available, but not all, and the writers they do have are more expensive than the PATA equivalents.
A board with NO PATA? (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:A board with NO PATA? (Score:4, Informative)
Is the board cheaper by not having PATA?
It's the 965 (Score:2)
You can get around this with the F8 key on your keyboard and a floppy disk drive and the right drivers for the JMicron controller.
Or, if you're using Vista, you can use a USB thumb drive for the drivers.
If it's like the MSI board I just fought with ... (Score:5, Informative)
This may not work with your board, but might be worth a try.
Workaround (Score:2)
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Re:On a related but different note... (Score:4, Informative)
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It's still horribly stupid. There are SATA optical drives but there is no particular reason for a normal pc user to use them. Or to use SATA for that matter. Most people only have one HDD and one optical drive, you don't really benefit from SATA under those conditions. It's especially annoying because most boards only give you two SATA ports.
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The SATA devices have achieved and in some cases surpassed the price-performance ratio of PATA devices, and they have a smaller cable. That alone is reason enough to go to SATA.
But as I am sure you will agree, that doesn't help or make you happy if you have a bunch of PATA devices you want to move into a new system, and have to go out and buy a PCI PATA card because the onboard stuff has less fun
Re:Airflow: SATA PATA (Score:2)
Unless you are overclocking it really doesn't make a difference. You can run a modern processor on a stock fan without a chassis cooler and everything will run within acceptable operating temperatures.
Besides, those who say that SATA cables are smaller and better for airflow may be forgetting that you need twice as many cables with SATA.
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SATA: small, narrow cable that supports one device per cable.
Re:On a related but different note... (Score:4, Informative)
The cost?
Roughly $30 to $40 for the low end models and around $100 for the high end.
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-Rick
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Re:SATA CDROM (Score:5, Informative)
Or for a whopping $9.99 you could buy an adapter and use whatever IDE drive you like:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N
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Regardless, MSI should have put this warning right on the front of the box in large type. People don't look in the fine print for confirmation of what is considered basic functionality.
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Huh? From what I understand, SATA (at least to software) looks almost exactly like IDE. The innards of a DVD drive should also look the same, except for the actual IDE interface. One of the driving forces behind SATA was to maintain backward-compatability, and to change as little as possible in order to make it easy to make changes to your design. How can going from PATA to SATA defeat copy protection?
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