Worrying About Employment Contracts?

An anonymous reader wonders: "I was preparing to accept a software developer job at a California company and was put off by the contract which claimed ownership of any ideas I create (on my own time or at the company) during my stay at the company and required me to inform them of any ideas (related to the company or not) during my employment and for a year afterwards. I've found references to a couple of instances where this became a legal problem for the developer. Is this something to worry about?"

Re:Contracts are what the parties involve agree on

[savala]

Don't "ask them". Do it yourself (strike out the offending lines, maybe write in a new clause: initial those changes, and have them initial them as well). By offering you a contract, they have all the power. Treat their proposed text as a starting point, and give yourself back some of that power. You already know they want to hire you: this puts you on equal footing. Use that knowledge. It's in both your interests to come to a agreement that you're both happy with, and a contract is a great tool for that purpose.

Re:Sounds normal to me.

[AuMatar]

No its not. ANything done on company time and/or with company resources is normal. Things closely relating to the company done on off hours is normal (for example, writing a plugin for a piece of software your company makes). Off hours work not relating to company buisness belonging to the company is *NOT* normal. NEVER sign a contract like that.

As an aside- I don't think such a contract is legal in California, the state actually has worker protection laws for stuff like this.

Yes and no.

[jd]

No, it's not "something to worry about", in the sense of looking out for it. There's just no point. Almost all contracts and employment agreements will have such a clause. There's also usually the authority to terminate employment for no reason, which is a great get-out clause for companies that want to violate employment laws. In fact, typical employment contracts give you no rights, no protections and no stability. Your bosses can do what they like and there is nothing you can do about it, even when the law technically says otherwise. There is just no point worrying about conditions you will simply have to accept if you want to continue eating.

Yes, it's something to worry about, in the sense that nobody has any incentive to invent. The employees won't see a dime, if their bright ideas have to be handed over without question. Companies have no incentive, because they should be able to get just as good results for free. Besides, if they ask their new hires to innovate, the new hires will have to give all this neat new stuff to their former boss, not them. R&D has no value, when it is in nobody's interest to carry it out. In their pursuit of instant gratification and the "now" money, the people with business degrees are killing off the people with real knowledge. There is no long-term future for such a mindset. It consumes but never produces. In the end, it will starve itself and all around it to death. Those just graduating damn well should worry that there is a serious danger of there being no long-term future. Not just for a job, but for whole industries.

I WOULDN'T KNOW...

[bratwiz]

I wouldn't know. I don't sign contracts that contain that type of language, except in very specific instances such as being hired to develop something VERY SPECIFICALLY spelled-out. I won't sign anything that says "anything I ever think up or do ever in my life while employed by FUCKWAD INC or not is FUCKWAD INC's property." Anytime an employer tries to stick that type of language in front of me, I either cross it out, re-write the contract, or walk out the door.

What I don't get are pussies who go ahead and sign it.

Don't you have any backbone?? Where are your balls???

(Apologies to folks who actually don't have balls)

Working is a TWO-WAY street. The company needs YOU a lot more than you need the company. But they've brainwashed you (us) into thinking its the other way around. If a company can't hire talent (people who can do things the company can then sell)-- where does that leave the company?

Sure you think, "They'll just find somebody else". And yes, you're probably right-- someone SPINELESS, without BALLS no doubt.

But if everybody with talent just said "NO". I GUARANTEE there would be panic on the 57th floor of every FUCKWAD INC company, everywhere. If you (we) ever really WISED UP and realized that we are FAR STRONGER as a collective than they are as a BAD-ASS MONOPOLY-- there would be a huge reckoning fixin to happen and a new deal to negotiate.

Companies say things like "Well, that's our policy"

FUCK THAT. Policies are words on paper. They're not LAWS. They're not morally GOOD or WRONG. They're just a memo that some pin-headed HR manager cranked out on a Tuesday afternoon in between blowing her boss under the table (or maybe it was his boss) and sucking up. They parade them around like Moses himself brought them down off the mountain-- but they only have POWER if you ALLOW THEM to have power.

YOU (and I) can have policies too. You can deliver them like they're made out of stone too if you want. Try it sometimes, its kind of fun.

Of course, its all about negotiation and who wants what more-- brinksmanship. Whoever blinks first tends to win. You say "I'll do this and that but not these other things". The company says "Its our policy that employees will ya ya ya". You say "Its not MY policy" and tell 'em how many ways they can fold it and where they can stuff it... with FEELING.

Working, no matter how menially, is a CONTRACT between you and your employer. Even working at McDonalds you have collective power if you only choose to use it. If enough people said "We're tired of working for pitiful wages and doing all your lacky work for nothing", McDonalds would have no choice but to work to find other labor-- and if it wasn't available-- they would have to capitulate.

Think about it another way-- next time you go in for a job interview-- hand them a list of "POLICIES"... they'll probably spill their coffee when they get to the one "Everything they've ever invented, dreamed up or thought about, past, present or future, whether you were in the premises or otherwise, now belongs TO YOU".

What an ARROGANT, EGOCENTRIC, TOTAL ASSHOLE thing to demand. They won't like it anymore than you like it. THEY won't sign it, and neither should you.

There are REASONABLE demands that you can choose to agree to (if you want)-- non-disclosure, non-competition-- both for a LIMITED period of time, and in LIMITED contexts-- maybe agreeing not to go work for a competitor withing a REASONABLE period of time. But you can demand stuff too-- like a GOOD WORKING ENVIRONMENT, Access to all of the TOOLS and MATERIALS you need to do your job. A guarantee that some PRICK MANAGER won't try to jump down your shit while you're trying to get stuff done. Solid REQUIREMENTS and REASONABLE DEADLINES. A good vacations and mental days.

They want shit-- you want shit. You look over their terms and say "That's okay, that's not". They'll look over yours and say the same thing. When you're done, if there's a deal on the table you can both live with, then t

Re:validity of agreement?

[HomelessInLaJolla]

It's a question of who has more legal representation. Sure, it's obvious that the federal government has been illegally wiretapping domestic phones for ten years or more, but they have the US Atty General to say,"No. Sorry. Everything we did was a-okay by me."

The average employee who needs a job at the level at which these sorts of agreements are handed out can't afford to hire a lawyer who would be willing to risk his professional reputation riding up against a corporate entity. The fact that it's a corporate entity alone ensures that they will have the legal support of any banks, investment brokerage houses, and insurance companies with which they do business.

In any case, even if the agreement is invalid, what reparations can the average employee hope to claim? These agreements are rarely used directly. They're used more as enforcement measures. A legal battle may curtail one or two specific points of the agreement itself but, within the workplace, the psychological atmosphere created by these agreements is far more pervasive, and damaging, than specific ownership of a few hundred lines of code.

Try telling a Vietnam POW that his imprisonment was illegal and he should've been paid for working in the rice patties. Well, no sh*t, but how is that going to make up for twenty years of being locked in a bamboo cage, in the hot sun, being fed rancid meat and constantly poked, prodded, and beaten by the prison guards?

Re:Yes.

[xero314]

This was, of course, on the first day of the job--after relocating and moving into the new apartment.

I always ask to see the employment contracts before accepting an offer, and everyone else should as well. This has saved me from working for a couple companies who had contracts I didn't agree with. I even had one company change their mind on an offer because I asked to see the document I was agreeing too (there was a line in an agreement that said I agreed to some other document and they would not show me the other document). You can make changes to the agreement as other people suggested, but these agreements are usually reflections on how the company operates and if you don't like there agreements you probably won't like the company.

• DO NOT give up the rights to what you do on your own time, unless it is in direct conflict with your duties or uses proprietary information you received in the course of your duties.
• DO NOT agree to arbitration and losing your legal rights.
• DO NOT agree to any terms that will effect you after the employer has stopped compensating you for your time.