Is Cash No Longer Legal Tender? 719
An anonymous reader asks: "I attend the University of Illinois at Chicago. Last semester my housing arrangements went smoothly. I put down my application fee, and my deposit just fine, got a room for the semester and life went on. This semester, because there was supposedly a large number of students who did not check into their rooms last semester, we were required to make a $100 prepayment, in addition to the application fee and deposit. No problem, I think, I see the university is trying to make a quick buck off people who don't follow through with their plans. Now I do NOT have a checking account, a credit card, or anything. I don't trust the banks, or the credit card companies, so I am one of the few people who do EVERYTHING in cash. However, they refused to take the cash. Is it legal for a state-owned university, let alone any business to not take legal tender?"
The housing department also will not charge my university account (so I can pay the bursar or whoever I need to) in cash, and they want a check or money order. Nowhere in their letter did they say that. I fear out of technicality I am going to loose my housing since I cannot get them their money on time because they do not take cash.
What can I do?"
What can I do?"
In some cases.... (Score:5, Interesting)
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I believe I've heard somewhere the theory of "Ok, yes, we have to take the cash, but I also don't have to make change for you." This may make it highly annoying to use cash in some situations.
Re:In some cases.... (Score:5, Funny)
Re:In some cases.... (Score:4, Interesting)
I don't know if that's legal in the US, but here (Scotland) one can refuse cash payment if the amount of change given is unreasonable. I think there might even be a legal definition of what "reasonable" is.
Re:In some cases.... (Score:4, Interesting)
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They can always waive a posted rule -- they cannot always impose it if it isn't posted.
I work at the IRS (Score:5, Funny)
Back in the day, we had a pissed off taxpayer and his wife bring in several thousand dollars in pennies. At the time, we had real teller functions in most cities and they took their money-handling chores seriously and by-the-book. All cash payments were *required* (no exceptions) to be counted out twice in the presence of the person paying.
The manager saw the situation, got approval to put a teller on overtime, and started counting. They stressed to the taxpayers that they *must* remain present during the count. This was fairly early in the morning. After a few hours, some things began to change. Everytime the taxpayer needed to go to the bathroom, the count had to stop and everyone left the room. No lunch. No breaks.
Asshole taxpayer got bored. Then he got tired and cranky. Then he and his wife got into it. A screaming match ensued with the wife berating her husband for his stupid idea. "Yeah, you really showed them, didn't you?!" By that evening, she ripped the car keys out of his hand and left, telling him he could get a cab home. This was in a large, non-compact city with poor public transport and, at the time, only a shell of a taxi system. Telling him to catch a cab home was the equivalent of telling him to burn in hell.
Around midnight, the count finished. The jerk was shellshocked. He called a cab and proceeded to go stand out by the highway and wait for it. I don't know if it ever came.
I feel certain, however, that Mr. Idiot never tried another stunt like that.
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Re:In some cases.... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.treas.gov/education/faq/currency/legal
Only creditors have to take legal tender, so if you pay first, they can place restrictions on form of payment.
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IANAL, of course.
I actually had the inverse problem some years ago. My landlord got burned by bounced checks (not from me), so he accepted nothing but cash. Every month, I had to go to the ATM
Re:In some cases.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Cash is nice and untraceable like that
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Really BAD Idea (Score:5, Informative)
What you describe is extremely counterproductive for landlords. Where to begin?
- As a landlord, you don't pay much tax on your buildings. Because you're only paying tax on your profits, and expenses are astronomical in the rental industry, and you are allowed to depreciate your property for tax purposes, often landlords will show a tax LOSS (or a modest profit), even while turning plenty of profit. Even if you underreport your income, you won't decrease your tax liability by much or anything at all.
- When you are applying for a loan or attempting to sell a building, you want to show that building to be operating as profitably as possible. Non-residential real estate is priced based on a multiple of the building's earnings (as opposed to comps), so if you are only declaring 50% or 75% of your rental receipts, you have just decreased the value of your building! Also, you will make it much harder to get a loan because banks want to see earnings. And yes, they absolutely do look at your tax returns.
- When deciding where to be, erm.., creative on your taxes, always remember the following maxim: If you're caught overdeducting, you pay a fine. If you underreport income, you go to jail.
- You open yourself up to fair housing problems. Picture this: a tenant doesn't pay his rent, so you evict. Nothing fancy there. But let's say that this nonpaying tenant is black, and wants to mess with you because he's mad that you evicted him (or he really feels discriminated against. Doesn't matter.).
Bottom line, this is really the wrong industry to underreport your income in. This is why, even with all of the shady landlords out there, you never see landlords being busted for underreporting.Example. Many landlords like a unit to cash flow $100/mo after expenses (mortgage, taxes, insurance, repairs, maintenance, advertising, vacancy, collections, credit loss, etc.) That $100/mo can easily be swallowed up by depreciating the building. Of course, depreciating the building will lower your cost basis and increase your capital gain when you sell the property, but google "1031" for more information on how to fix that little snag.
He calls some infomercial contingency-fee lawyer, sues you for fair housing violations, and during discovery, finds out that ALL of your tenants are underpaying. By 25-50%! But a quick glance at the court records reveals that you did not evict all of them. Why did you single out this one tenant, hmm? Oh, you are in for a costly court battle, settlement, and/or judgment now. Unless you are prepared to testify under oath that you belong in jail for underreporting your income. (And prepared to pay your attorney $10,000.00 for the privilege)
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Well, there's also money orders....
Wow... (Score:5, Insightful)
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It may not be a lot, but the $7 they hit me with once was a lot in the "no cash college days".
Re:Wow... (Score:4, Interesting)
$0.01 to $500.00 - $1.05
$500.01 to $1,000.00 - 1.50
which I'm sure can fit into anyone's budget. Although I guess if a person doesn't trust banks then why entrust your money to the government or quasi-government agencies.
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Re:Wow... (Score:5, Funny)
By the way, when paying bills by means of a cheque in the post, never, ever put a stamp on the envelope. Just write "RECIPIENT TO PAY POSTAGE" on it. BT used to write "Royal Mail will not deliver unstamped items" in the "stamp" space on their envelopes. I used to write "Oh yes they will!"
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You forget that this is a public university. Not only are they petty enough to demand the buck fifty, but they'll put holds on his registration to do it! They don't have to go after him; he'll come crawling back when he can't register for classes.
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Re:Wow... (Score:5, Interesting)
I'm just saying...
Minor Nit (Score:2)
That being said, your advice is indeed the most prudent course of action for the original poster.
Well good luck with that (Score:5, Insightful)
- get a grown-up job that doesn't pay in cash
- get a loan
- get a mortgage
You will need bank accounts down the line (and a credit score!) so why not get one now? Even if you leave it empty and top if up for special occasions like this.Staying off the record if you like. (Score:5, Insightful)
If you need a credit card equivalent, try PrivaCash. I heard about it on a privacy website. It's basically a pre-paid debit card that isn't tied to your name. You can pick up preloaded cards in stores, but if you want to reload them, you have to deal with the bank that backs them. You can't do things like rent cars or do other things where access to a debt source is used in the place of a deposit, but you can make purchases online.
Really, though, unless you are planning on living completely off the record as much as possible once your stint in a university is done, go for a credit union. It's like a bank, only not evil (or at worst significantly less evil). Avoiding a bank is very, very hard in modern life. For more details about what you lose in terms of privacy and how to protect yourself to a limited extent, check out the book "How to be Invisible" by C.C. Luna.
Re:Staying off the record if you like. (Score:5, Insightful)
Renting isn't always a bad financial choice. (Score:4, Interesting)
I'll have no part of that for a few reasons:
- I live in the city. All the even close to affordable houses are well outside what I consider a reasonable commuting range.
- It's just plain cheaper to rent. Sure, I'm not storing up equity, but really neither are a lot of people on subprime mortgages. At least the money I'm saving is being put into investments.
- I predict that once the baby boomers get a decade into retirement (with no kids in the house and failing health) a lot of them are going to start moving out of houses; many of them will be moving into "assisted living" centers. Houses in areas near good schools are going to get a LOT cheaper in the next ten years. At that time, I'll reevaluate whether owning a home is a good thing or not, but unless you can solidly plan to put down roots for the next 30 years where you are right now, owning a home might be an unwise investment.
Leasing is silly if your end goal is to own.So? What makes owning such a great goal to have in the first place? If your privacy or your paranoia is so important to you that you'd go through life without a bank account, then going without owning the house you live in isn't so bad in comparison.
Frankly, I'm paying about 1/2 to 2/3 what I'd pay for a mortgage on a home or condo in my area. My insurance is significantly cheaper, and I wouldn't have enough deductions to qualify for a tax break anyway.
Consider this wise or unwise as you wish, but I was able to live for half a year without a paycheck to go volunteer in the local election last year, and I had no fear of losing a place to live. I know that I'm fortunate to be in a very high income bracket due to my choice of careers, but I could get by comfortably with a third of my income because I live below my means.
Home ownership is overrated, if you ask me.
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Buying/owning a home isn't any more of a rat race than buying a car. Buying more home than you can afford is. Most people buy way more than they can afford.
Re:Renting isn't always a bad financial choice. (Score:4, Interesting)
Rents go up, mortgages don't. My dad is currently paying 1/4 to 1/3 for his mortgage what it would cost to rent a house in his neighborhood, and 1/2 what a small apartment would be. That's because he's owned the house for years.
Mortgages are horrible at first, because they take up a large chunk of your money. After a while, you get raises and your mortgage stays the same. Checking out my old apartment, it's already gone up $200 since I moved out, and another $200 (maybe 2-4 years down the road), it will be equal with my mortgage.
Yes, there are cases where it may be better to rent than own, but there are probably more cases where it makes more sense to own.
buy a money order. (Score:4, Informative)
Doing everything in cash, imo, is sort of retarded. I don't particularly trust banks either, but when inconvenience impacts me regularly, I make concessions.
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They prabably find that cash dissapears too quickly or some administrative BS like that.
Just ask them why whould they not take cash?. If they dont know, walk up the chain of command. someone should be able to come up with a valid reason other than its policy.
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It's Your Choice (Score:5, Insightful)
These days credit is more and more important. If you don't have it, many places won't give you a chance to get it because you have no credit record. While I'd like to say I admire you for sticking to your beliefs, you're going to have to make a choice: you can stick by your position and lose your room or you can work out a compromise. If you elect to stay firmly in your position, I seriously doubt the University will be upset. It's a bit what Prosser said to Arthur Dent: "Do you have any idea how much damage that bulldozer would suffer if it were to run over you? None at all." They have nothing to lose here and you have everything to lose.
Overall, not building up credit, learning to deal with banks and credit card companies, and staying on an all cash basis is unwise in this culture. If I stuck to that policy, my net worth would be much lower because I would not have had a credit rating that allowed me to borrow when I needed it so I could build up my business.
While it's just my opinion, I can only wonder if a large part of your reluctance is more fear and unwillingness to understand how to use "the system" to your benefit and that you cover for this fear by claiming it is an ethical issue.
Re:It's Your Choice (Score:5, Informative)
The funny thing is, I don't want it. Credit is really just newspeak for "debt". The only debt I ever want to have, and I don't really want it very much, is a mortgage. Credit cards are useful occassionally - my fiancee and I use hers maybe three times a year - but I'd much rather use my debit card. Aside from anything else, my debit card doesn't pretend to be giving me something.
As for borrowing: get a loan from a bank. Borrowing on a credit card is madness, interest-wise.
TWW
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You do realise that you can use a credit card as if it were a debit card? I do, works perfectly fine. At the end of the month, I pay what I owe them and it's all done. Just don't use credit cards for loans, as you say yourself. Us it as a convenience.
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If I buy anything under a few grand I'll pay for it then and there instead of using store
Re:It's Your Choice (Score:5, Informative)
The problem with this is that it can be very difficult to get a mortgage if you have no credit history. Unless you have borrowed money in the past and paid it back on time banks have no way to gauge whether you are likely to pay your mortgage. It is only by borrowing every increasing amounts of money and paying it back reliably that you can increase your credit rating.
Just to add a bit of anecdotal evidence: My sister has never had a credit card or used an overdraft facility, she viewed this as being financially responsible. When she came to apply for a loan to cover a year studying abroad she was refused on the basis that she had no credit history.
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Does it matter that I saved 1/3 of my gross for two years? Does it matter that I paid every bill on time for about three? Does it matter that the mortgage would be less than 1/6 of my gross even at a high interest rate? No, no, and no. I've even been t
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"Branch managers aren't allowed to make judgment calls anymore." i.e., They're not going to call in the cavalry for one small mortgage.
I did do what Ramsey described (though it wasn't called that). My "financial situation" is pretty simple: stable employment, no other debt, lots in mutual funds, no other obligations, no judgments, no liens, no bankruptcy, loan for about 2x yearly gross. I explained this to their "special situations expert". The result:
The very best they
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Having a credit history isn't a bad idea, unfortunately.
Re:It's Your Choice (Score:4, Insightful)
Say you have $1500 worth of purchases every month that can be made via credit card. If you pay the credit cards off in full every month, you have the use of an extra $1500 at no cost until you need to pay your statement. You can make money off that $1500 if you want, say by purchasing a CD.
Not borrowing, when you can easily get a return significantly higher than the interest you need to pay, is madness.
Re:It's Your Choice (Score:4, Insightful)
You can also lose money by not having good credit. Many insurance companies use your credit score to adjust how high a premium you must pay. If you eventually need a loan and are able to get one, your interest will be substantially higher if you have bad or no credit. Certain jobs require a good credit rating to ensure you are financially responsible; if you are not financially responsible, you are considered to be more of a theft/embezzling/bribery/security risk.
Everyone has a credit rating, whether they want it or not. It's a tool that may be used to your advantage if used properly. Ignoring it cannot benefit you, only harm you in the long run.
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Not really.
There are many no-annual-fee cards out there that charge no interest if you pay it off every month.
So in fact, you MAKE MONEY using a credit card for regular purchases, because your money is sitting in the bank gaining interest through the whole month.
And 'debt' is only an issue if you spend more than you have currently.
Secondly, if you have a pocketful of cash you are mugging bait, and if you are robbed you lose.
If you have a credit card you
Re:It's Your Choice (Score:4, Interesting)
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Here you go... (Score:5, Informative)
world's smallest violin.... (Score:2, Insightful)
What is it exactly you don't trust about banks? I mean, money is a number, and if it goes up in one place it has to go down someplace else, just check your bank statement each month, what exactly is going to happen?
As for your dilemma, have your mommy write the check, or buy a fucking money order. They don't have to accept cash.
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Christianity has proscriptions against usury, but no problem with investing and trade; see the parable of the master and three servants.
Islam has some requirements, but there are Sharia-compatible banks and mortgages and what not. They're actually getting pretty popular amoung non-Moslems in North America as well.
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Also, 'usury' refers to charging unreasonably high interest rates, not just charging interest.
Jesus Christ (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't trust the banks, or the credit card companies, so I am one of the few people who do EVERYTHING in cash. [..] I fear out of technicality I am going to loose my housing since I cannot get them their money on time because they do not take cash.
Do you know few of the things you CAN do with cash?
Get a cashiers check.
Open a checking account.
Just go and do it, don't just put your entire savings in there if you're so paranoid, put the amount that the university will charge you.
Do you honestly are telling us that you'd rather *lose* your housing than open a checking account and put $100 in it?
Re:Jesus Christ (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Jesus Christ (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally I can't remember the last time I touched a bank note - I do everything on credit or debit cards (or online, natch). I have a small pot of change for carparks etc. but that's about it.
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Re:Jesus Christ (Score:5, Insightful)
"Dear Slashdot - I'm having trouble opening a jar of pickles. WHAT DO I DO?!"
"Dear Slashdot - my mom won't let me have boys over unless we stay in the living room. Any advice?"
I mean, the guy is in college and rather than solve a trivial problem on his own, he needs to ask the fucking Internet?!
Here's my helpful suggestion to the person asking the original question: Just give up. Seriously. If you can't figure out how to do something simple like this on your own, the rest of life is going to steamroll you.
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You can't get a money order? (Score:2)
Get a money order and be done with it.
No one wants to deal in cash any more (Score:2)
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When I lived in Japan it was pretty cash based too, though between when I lived there in 2003 and when I went there in 2006, the number of places th
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Trust (Score:5, Funny)
FFS (Score:2)
Ever hear of a Money Order?
I don't trust them either... (Score:2)
I don't trust them either. So I check the balances online, keep the printed copies (and decline online-only records), and keep deposit receipts.
Really, you're going to have to get one eventually, and if you are clever enough to work the system you can get all sort of cashback rewards and the like.
It isn't that difficult, they make easy enough cash off the genuises who carry $10K balances
So... you only have cash (Score:3)
You'd be a lot easier to steal from than somebody that uses bank accounts.
FDIC (Score:2)
Sure cash has no transaction fees like credit/debit transaction fees, and doesn't require verification like checks (or
I'd avoid cash as well (Score:5, Funny)
Re:I'd avoid cash as well (Score:4, Funny)
This reminds me, I too had trouble putting down a deposit for my college dorm room back in 1999. Would you believe that they wouldn't take beaver pelts? I even threw in some iron pots and a musket. They treated me like I was crazy! Does no one take beaver pelts as legal barter anymore!?
And cash can be counterfeited (Score:2)
here's what you do: (Score:5, Insightful)
And how the heck do you plan on saving money? Put it in a shoebox under your bed? What if your place burns down in a fire, or what if someone breaks in and steals it? Insurance companies won't replace lost or stolen cash. If your credit card or bank card gets stolen and used for fraud, you almost certainly will get your money back -- that's the beauty of little electronic footprints and camera footage.
Two Points (Score:5, Insightful)
Two, you are an idiot if you pay cash to the university. You don't trust banks but you are willing to trust a university? Your trust issues are more then a little fucked up. If you pay cash to a university, you have one less piece of a paper trail should the university turn around and screw you... and screw you they often do. Universities are notorious for piss poor management, lost bills, and all other manner of headaches. Despite the general incompetence of most universities, the one thing you can always fall back on is that if they charge you electronically there is not only their receipt, but a transaction from your bank as well. When you go to dispute your bill, you will be armed with a very clear record of how they fucked up. Your trust priorities are a little confused if you think that a bank is more likely to screw you then a university.
I highly suggest making friends with money orders, refillable credit cards, or some other method of paying besides cash. Only using cash will keep you from doing some very simple things, like ordering stuff online, sending checks in the mail, etc.
I am not sure if you are paranoid, trying to dodge taxes, or just are not happy with the crop of crazy groups available at universities and decided to start your own but you are likely to find the all cash world not worth whatever you are getting. Sure, you might dodge a few taxes, but the amount you pay in pain and the inability to easily use basic services is likely to be far worse then Uncle Sam's FICA taxes. If you are just paranoid... well, I suggest seeing a doctor with the power to prescribe medication. Uncle Sam really doesn't give a shit that you had to pay a school deposit. Really.
Good luck (Score:2)
Do you trust the Federal Reserve ? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Do you trust the Federal Reserve ? (Score:5, Funny)
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Legal tender laws (Score:2)
Very dumb way to live. (Score:5, Insightful)
It's regrettable, maybe (certainly I think so), but it's also damn tough to live any other way in the end. A life without credit is a life with many fewer opportunities and many fewer potential relationships. Not just slightly fewer, but fewer to a crippling extent.
But credit is not something that exists here, now, it is something that exists through your own financial history of using it. That is to say it's circular: you get a little, you use that little, then you get a little more, then you use that little more, etc. You only get Credit (big 'C') by using your credit (small 'c') responsibly over time. The later you start, the later you'll actually get there.
If you're over 20 and you haven't started already, you're way behind the game. By the time you're 30 and haven't started, most institutions won't extend you any anymore. They'll just paint you as "different." They don't care whether you're different in a bad or good way for not having credit; they just don't want to do business with people who are "different." Because "different" people might respond to responsibilities in "different" ways from the ways in which members of society typically do.
My advice: go open a bank account and put some money in it. Leave a balance of a few hundred dollars there for a few months, then get a credit card with that bank. Use the damn card. Pay off your balance. Even if you just do $20 a month, i.e. toilet paper and granola bars, on the card. Just to get a credit history going on.
And later on, if you find yourself in this situation again, you'll have a bank account that you can quickly deposit some cash in and use a Visa/Mastercard debit card against.
Pound Notes are Pound Notes (Score:3, Interesting)
It's a bit like the case of the student who got a wealthy lawyer to sponsor his university education in law, on the basis that he would hand over the entire proceeds of his first case by way of complete and final recompense. Immediately upon receiving his degree, he signed on the dole and made no attempt to get a job as even a minor partner in a law firm. His sponsor took him to court for breach of contract; the graduate represented himself. Either his sponsor's payoff would amount to nothing (because he had lost his first case); or the decision of the court would be that he didn't have to pay his sponsor anything (if he won the case).
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Re:Very good question. (Score:5, Insightful)
One of the main functions of college is to prepare young people for the Real World(tm) -- a place where you will often face people and entities that are not the slightest bit interested in what you want. Considering the needs of others, and not just your own desires, has a name: Maturity.
Not so hard in Chicago (Score:3, Insightful)
-GiH
Re:Very good question. (Score:4, Informative)
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Most of the time it boils down to liability and proof of identity. Let's say I rent a lawnmower for the day for $5. It's picked up an never returned.
Let's say I rent an apartment, dorm room, hotel room and get no ID. After a week stay I find they had 500 cats and no litterbox and didn't use an ashtray so there are burn marks on the counter in the bathroom. They pack up and leave me the mess.
With a credit
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While it's not in the US, Ottawa will no longer accept cash when used to pay for taxes.
Also, in the U.S. there is no law requiring anyone accept cash as payment. I know Heinlein thought otherwise in some statements in "Time Enough for Love," but it's not true. For a little more, read this [typepad.com]. As someone else pointed out, the legal tender issue will only work for paying debts incurred, not ones about to be incurred.
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In the US, the IRS is required to accept cash.
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I've heard that story a dozen times in my life. But in most countries, the creditor could refuse to accept them. Eg, in the US 1 cent coins are only "legal tender" for amounts not exceeding 25 cents.
In Hong Kong lots of shops are refusing 10 and 20 cent coins ($1US = $7.8 HK), because the banks charge a handling fee to deposit them. Stored payment cards are in common use, for almost all public transport, now being
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However, as a side note, I once suggested as a small child (perhaps 7 or 8) that it only made sense for the world to go completely to electronic currency. I kept trying to convince adults that physical currency is not only inconvenient, but it is easier to steal, and harder to track.
If those concepts are readily apparent to a child, why hasn't anyone actually suggeste
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I saw video of it on CNN. Actually, technically I believe it was on their Headline News network, but I did in fact directly see video of it.
However, as a side note, I once suggested as a small child (perhaps 7 or 8) that it only made sense for the world to go completely to electronic currency. I kept trying to convince adults that physical currency is not only inconvenient, but it is easier to steal, and harder to track.
If those concepts are readily apparent to a child, why hasn't anyone actually suggested it on a very serious level?
Because those concepts are readily apparent to anyone. Phyiscal currency is harder to track than electronic currency, and many people are concerned about the privacy implications of electronic currency.
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Luckily the UK is a bit smarter and coin is only valid up to a surprisingly low amount.
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A bit? Don't be modest.
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Luckily the UK is a bit smarter and coin is only valid up to a surprisingly low amount.
Yes; in England and Wales, only UK coins of £1 and above (i.e. £1 and £2) and Bank of England notes (i.e. £5 and above) are legal tender for unlimited amounts.
Interestingly, in Scotland apparently only Bank of England notes *under* £5 and coins in varying amounts are (strictly speaking) legal tender. Since there are no longer any Bank of England notes under £5, this means that only £1 and £2 UK coins are legal tender for unlimited amounts(!).
That is misle
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There are many holes in the way law enforcement tries to catch illegally acquired cash at the moment. If they try to close those holes, it's quite likely that using cash for large transactions will become illegal. Or even using cash at all; Dutch banks alread