Can Open Source Give Comfort To the Enemy? 532
zlite writes "We make open source Unmanned Aerial Vehicles (drones), mostly for geomapping and other amateur uses. One of our problems is that most people think of UAVs as Scary Things, and despite our efforts to prove otherwise there's always the risk of regulatory crackdowns. We have amateur UAV participants from around the world, but now they've been joined by an Iranian in Tehran, who has made a UAV in the colors of the Iranian flag. My instinct is that we should welcome everyone, everywhere, but I'm sure some in Washington worry that this looks like helping an 'Axis of Evil' country make advanced weapons. They could shut us down with the stroke of a pen. My question: is there ever a case for letting national security issues dictate the limits of an open source project?"
Doing the government's work for them (Score:5, Insightful)
If you want to do the government's work for them, sure.
If you are shutting down a project based solely on the fear that your government may shut you down in the future (and not for a valid reason), you are only saving them the trouble, and making it that much worse for the next controversial open-source project that comes along.
Open to all (Score:5, Insightful)
In any case, something tells me no open source UAV software will ever be capable of running a weapons platform without significant contributions. If a country can build a UAV capable of military grade recon or even able to field weapons, they won't have any problem writing the software.
Re:Give the (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't bite the propaganda of AIPAC or Dick Cheney! Israel is the nuclear armed agressor in the Middle East.
Persian culture, by way of contrast, produced the world's first assertion and declaration of Human Rights, and is responsible for the foundation of modern mathematics.
You want ethical and humane living? Read the Avesta of Zoroaster. Unlike the rabid Old Testament, it pleads that humanity have good thought, good speech and good deeds, not casting it's neighbors as "abominations" and wishing them plagues.
Technology doesn't matter in the long run... (Score:3, Insightful)
Then you will laugh when the next Ice Age comes.
And cry when the next asteroid hits...
The only "hope", if there is a point, is to get geographically diversified. And by geographically, I mean light-years.
Anyone Still Listening? (Score:5, Insightful)
Is anyone still taking these guys seriously? I mean, the "Axis of Evil" was coined at the time when the whole cast was performing a play where they convinced the USAmerican public that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction and posed a great threat to the USA. Now that has been exposed for the load of bollocks many of us already saw it for at the time. The whole "Axis of Evil" concept was invented to scare the American public into thinking there was a conspiracy against them, but, in all the time since then, none of the countries on this supposed axis have actually attacked the USA. The only aggressor in this whole stage play has been the USA itself, with the demagogues leading the violence somehow escaping scrutiny. Sure, Iraqis are killing US soldiers _now_, but, well, can you blame them, after said soldiers plunged their country into an anarchy where it's news if there is a day _without_ bombings? And the same guys who came up with the "Axis of Evil" told you that the US soldiers would be received as heroes and bring peace and stability to Iraq.
And now you are saying that X is a good idea, but we'd better not do it because the "Axis of Evil" guys may not like it? I'm not saying the idea is good and you should do it, but _not_ doing it because of those demagogues seems about as bad an idea as they get. They've done enough damage already!
Re:The Answer is Yes (Score:3, Insightful)
It is unbelievable propaganda to equate Iran to Nazi Germany. Israeli disinfo and psyops (MEMRI) [guardian.co.uk] deliberately mis-translate stories, and the lapdog media in the US and UK eat it up.
Here is the country, and the people [flickr.com], that you smear as "enemy".
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
Technology is not inherently wrong/evil/whatever. Technology is just technology. And if an Iranian kid finds some peaceful apps for technology, good for him, hope he inspires the hell out of his friends to do the same.
Let's face it, you can use a baseball bat to play baseball. Or, you can use it to beat somebody to a pulp. Going to make baseball illegal cause somebody might pick up a bat and hit somebody? Same principle.
Reality Check Required (Score:5, Insightful)
The Iranian Government currently has the technology to produce:
And you think that stopping a not for profit, model aircraft UAV building group is going to limit their ability to produce a military UAV.
So how many other open source projects may have secret Iranian participants, shall we shut them all down.
How about shutting down Linux because it can be used by the Iranians to build super computers like they do in the west to test bomb designs.?
Lets ban all knowledge because the terrorists may get at it.
Re:The Answer is Yes (Score:5, Insightful)
If Iran can build a nuclear reactor (Score:3, Insightful)
creating a UAV without assistance? Having spent a fair amount of time in the middle east I can tell you that their population in many cases has better access to technology than we do here in the states.
I think if they have the smarts and capability to build a reactor that a UAV would not be real difficult for them.
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't bite the propaganda of AIPAC or Dick Cheney! Israel is the nuclear armed agressor in the Middle East.
Huh? Aggressor? Last I checked, it wasn't Israel who was swearing to wipe out other countries, nor do they send suicide bombers to blow up buses of children. Israel is certainly not squeaky clean, but having enemies around you screaming for your destruction tends to make a country trigger happy. The ledger of atrocities is about 10 (if not 100) to 1 in favor of Israel.
Persian culture, by way of contrast, produced the world's first assertion and declaration of Human Rights, and is responsible for the foundation of modern mathematics.
Those civilizations are long dead -- unfortunately for the people of the middle east.
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
While I somewhat agree with that sentiment, we need to recognize that Iran isn't exactly the same Persia that we know and love. A lot has changed over the years. Persia finally succumbed to Islam; around 90% of Iranians follow the various Islamic faiths, and there are very few Zoroastrians hanging around. Sure, ethnically, the people are mostly the same as they were during the Empire years, but to say that culture is still pervasive? I don't know about that. Also, you can't berate people who follow the other Abrahamic religions, and then praise a modern country filled with people who also follow an (in my eye) equally stupid, but somewhat different Abrahamic religion. What sense does that make?
I've no doubt that the Iranian people are generally, and individually, great people; still, they're under the influence of assholes. It's no different than the US. Their government lies, our government lies, their leader has a screw loose, our leader has to have a screw loose-and unfortunately he has control over the bombs. Israel is the same way. It would be nice, however, if Ahmadinejad didn't periodically call for the elimination of Israel. Instead of defusing the situation, all they do is throw another stick of dynamite on the pile, and it doesn't further their cause in the international arena.
Re:Since when did Iran become your enemy? (Score:3, Insightful)
The problem with that statement is that the rulers of Iran:
1) Have said that they want nuclear weapons, and are actively pursuing nuclear technology
2) Have said that they want to wipe Isreal from the map
3) Seem to be spreading fear through their military and covert actions
While that does not make me hate Iranians or anything, that may lead to the US being forced to intervene no matter how we judge the rest of them - which would certainly make most Iranians hate us...
It is a very difficult problem. What do you do when a country is stable, but dangerously aggressive? Is it better to leave it alone, and sometimes get a Pearl Harbor, or kick over the hornets nest and get Iraq? No matter what you do, you have a bad outcome. And of course, the Iranians are not going to rebel against their government - they have the guns.
As technology increases, this problem will get worse - for two reasons. First, the power goverments have over people will increase - think of the progression of knives, guns, tanks, ???. Second, the Pearl Harbor or first strike outcome gets far worse - what if Bin Laden had waited until after they aquired thermonukes? In the next century, a terrorist could conceivably kill every american in the opening shot...
I so want off this planet!
Re:Modded as troll - nice (Score:3, Insightful)
Sorry that your facts are unpopular here...
Re:Flag?! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Doing the government's work for them (Score:5, Insightful)
This isn't the situation where they send you a DCMA notice and turn your website off. This is where they show up with a warrant, search your house and incarcerate you with a million dollar bail because they are charging you with violation of the arms export laws of this country. This isn't the kind of thing you fool around with, if you think there is a possibility that the UAV project you are working on is being copied by a foreign military or anyone within a country on the export list you could be in serious trouble for continuing. Regardless of how you feel about the politics, if you don't want to go to jail, you implement controls on the information you are providing (to prevent access by countries on the weapons export list) or you get someone outside the US to head the project and control the website. That is, if you care about spending the next 25 years in federal prison.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Give the (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Flag?! (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
Right - like the war in 1948 where Arabs were massacred or ethnic-cleansed out of their villages... that wasn't aggressive. And nor was the unilateral "preemptive" strike on the Iraqi nuclear facility. Oh, and lets not forget the unprovoked attack on the USS Liberty (how many Americans were killed in the "accidental" attack that lasted several hours?). Oh, and the invasions into Lebanon... how many times now? Nope, no aggression there.
Coca-Cola Co. is a traitor then too! (Score:3, Insightful)
So does that mean that Coca-Cola Co. is lending aid and comfort to the enemy??
Re:Give the (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
You never hear anyone who speaks loudly condemn both sides for their ethical failures over the years. Why does everyone have to declare one side or the other innocent of all crimes?
Why don't we just look at the facts: Israel exists in a sea of Arab countries, some of whom consistently announce their intention to wipe them from the face of the Earth. This tense climate has made both sides afraid, and people who are afraid make bad decisions. Because of these bad decisions, the Muslims in Palestine have become more marginalized and more radicalized. The Israelis have become more aggressive.
This does not exempt either side from culpability, and it also does not make either side the clear moral victor.
The only way peace will be accomplished in the Middle East is if both sides learn to move past their grievances and realize that the past has no rational relationship to how they should proceed in the future. The past is all sunken cost. Both sides need to say to themselves: How do we prevent further death?
Re:Doing the government's work for them (Score:5, Insightful)
Gamble his freedom? If he can't talk to whoever he wants on the internet without fear of government agents kicking in his door while he sleeps, his freedom is already gone.
Re:Give the (Score:2, Insightful)
But only one side is carrying on a 40 year illegal occupation.
>This does not exempt either side from culpability, and it also does not make either side the clear moral victor.
Moral victors are those trying to gain their independence from an occupying force.
>How do we prevent further death?
Start by ending the occupation. Pull back to the 64 borders, build a wall around yourself, let the UN patrol the other side of the war. Never ever deal with any muslim country again.
Re:Since when did Iran become your enemy? (Score:2, Insightful)
When people say "Iran" in this context they're talking about the Government, not the people. Up until the revolution in 1979, Iran was a friend and, as you might have noticed, many Iranians have attained high levels of respect and power in America.
Anyway, I'd say the US government has considered the Iranian government an enemy in one way or another since this [wikipedia.org] happened.
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
The Native Americans are allowed to become full American citizens. Palestinians are denied citizenship by Israel. Native Americans are offered economic autonomy, ie casinos and tax-free shopping, while Palestinians are suffering while Israel closes the borders and blocks commerce and electricity.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
Oh noez!! I haz a pair of ducks![*]
The only thing that's relevant to any discussion of any contemporary political regime is how they act today and the recent past. Pining over long dead civilizations and trying to impart a few choice characteristics some idealized version of them on to their contemporary decendents while ignoring all intervening history is extremely sophmoric.
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[*] Thank you. Thank you. I'll be here all week. Two shows on Friday and Saturday: 7 and 10. No kids at the 10. It gets a little blue.
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
You never hear anyone who speaks loudly condemn both sides for their ethical failures over the years.
Wrong. Lots of people do. But those who do are despised by BOTH the sides (instead of just one of the sides) so they get much less media coverage. SO it ends up that anybody that talks against Israel's landgrabbing is labelled antisemitic (which is ridiculous if not else because the Palestinians are as much semitic as the Israeli, and actually often more semitic because most of Israeli are Jew but with lots of caucasic blood in their veins, so even from a purely racist point of view the label doesn't even make sense), and anybody that talks against the Palestinians terrorism acts is labeled as 'sold-out to the Israelf-US capitalistic landgrabbing agenda' or whatever.
Also, the main problem is that people keep talking about culpability instead of thinkin in terms of find a solution. This is exactly the same reason why most vendettas go on for centuries. (Plus, if we have to talk about culpability in the Palestine case I would go for the UN, which almost literely threw the Jew colonists to the lions, by supporting the creation of the State of Israel despite the clear and loud voices against it from the neighbouring nations. And please nobody mention the Belford declaration, that was before WWII and the promise to wipe Israel out of the face of Earth if it got founded was declared right after WWII, and before the foundation of the State. As for the right of a nation to have a State, that goes for lots of persecuted nations around the world, but nobody gives a shit about them so that's quite obviously not enough of a reason.)
So the solution has to rely on a current analysis of the situation, and the current analysis is that Israel is still landgrabbing, using the settlers (or squatters, depending on the point of view) outside of its borders as an excuse to extend its control over Palestine. Until they dismantle those settlements (that serve no purpose but landgrabbing) and fully retreat within the UN-declared borders they simply have no right to complain about the Palestinian terrorism. Likewise, Palestine should officially and once for all acknolwedge the State of Israel (within the UN-declared borders) and cease all hostile activity against Israel.
Of course, it's not something that I foresee happening anytime soon.
Iran UAV today IRAN terror weapon tomorrow aftern (Score:0, Insightful)
Iran UAV today IRAN terror weapon tomorrow - tomorrow afternoon
Regulatory Bodies (Score:3, Insightful)
I think you misunderstand the problem. In the US we have multiple branches of government. The laws are written by one branch, and enforced by another. Of course, every person in the government has their own political agenda. This means that when an agency is looking at enforcing a law, they don't ask "what did the writers of this law intend" instead they ask "how can this law be used to further my agenda". I am not being cynical, I don't think there's necessarily anything wrong with things working this way. Indeed, if enforcement agencies always set about enforcing the spirit of the law, it would give legislators far too much power.
I think you'll find that regulatory agencies' interpretation of the law makes a lot more sense when you consider the agencies' basic goals.
Re:Give the (Score:1, Insightful)
As for the invasion to Lebanon - I think last august proved that it was (and still) needed, as it's still a hostile country that attacks and provokes when the opportunity arises.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
It's only baseball, and if the players want to take those personal risks..let them-it's their health/career.
You should stick to bad car analogies until it's time to get rid of your training wheels, kiddo.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
The ledger of atrocities is about 10 (if not 100) to 1 in favor of Israel.
It's this type of thinking that truly galls me (as well as helps what's going on in the Middle East to continue). There's no "scorecard" to look at, and there's no such thing as, well, these atrocities are not as bad as those ones, therefore we should side with these guys. In case you haven't noticed, both sides are equally guilty of atrocities; both are just as bad as the other based on the measurement that they are atrocities. For every atrocity someone picks out about one side, there's certainly something equal to find from the other.
So, let's look at your claim: "10 (if not 100) to 1 in favor of Israel". Let's assume, like you do, that there is some sort of scorecard you can use to support this. How do you measure this?
Number of civilians killed? Israel has certainly killed more.
Number of times innocent civilians are targeted intentionally? Israeli Chief of Staff Mordechai Gur admitted in 1978 that Israel intentionally targeted civilian populations. Israeli military analyst Deev Schiff remarked on the comments at the time saying: "In South Lebanon we struck the civilian population consciously, because they deserved it ... [T]he importance of Gur's remarks is the admission that the Israeli army has always struck civilian populations, purposely and consciously ... the army, he said, has never distinguished civilian [from military] targets...[but] purposely attacked civilian targets even when Israeli settlements had not been struck." The same pattern was again repeated in the most recent Lebanon invasion, echoing the comments of Abba Eban's "rational prospect ... that afflicted populations would exert pressure for the cessation of hostilities", terrorism in ever sense of the word.
Number of civilian targets and infrastructure destroyed? Just counting the recent war with Lebanon would put Israel in a clear lead.
What about terrorism, or genocide, or ethnic cleansing, or other human rights measurements such as torture etc.? Is that a measure of how bad an atrocity is? Do some reading about what Israel actually did to the civilian population during the first Lebanon war. For example, most men between 16 and 60 in Southern Lebanon were rounded up and imprisoned without any reason. Countless numbers were tortured, beaten, starved, and killed, quite intentionally, with the laughter and racist insults of their captors ringing in their ears. Or perhaps go further back and look at what Ilan Pappe (Israeli historian) calls [upi.com] "The Ethnic Cleansing of Palestine", detailing quite accurately how the plan to forcibly transfer the Arab population from their land "was a clear-cut case of an ethnic cleansing operation, regarded under international law today as a crime against humanity."
And what about being an aggressor? You imply they've always been on the defence, which is untrue. The 1956 Israeli-French-British attack on Egypt was not defensive. The 1978 invasion of Lebanon was not defensive. The 1973 Arab attack was an Israeli defensive war in that they were defending territory that they occupied. Even the 1967 war is not conclusively one of Israeli defence: Menachem Begin remarked that "In June 1967, we again had a choice. The Egyptian Army concentrations in the Sinai approaches do not prove that Nasser was really about to attack us. We must be honest with ourselves. We decided to attack him."
The point I'm trying to make here is that blame is not a zero sum game. Until there is some sort of even handedness against both parties - in other words, until there is an embargo against Israel on a par with what has been put in place against the Palestinians - there is simply not going to be peace in that region until one side is exterminated, and at the moment that is likely to be the Palestinians.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
That's the lousiest excuse I have ever heard for apartheid.
>blowing up civilians in big numbers doesn't count as fight for something right in my book
Sounds to me like you are perfectly fine with it when israel does it.
>Don't want to sound like troll, flamer or something,
And yet you sound exactly like a troll and a flamer.
>And that worries me most. It is clear that they don't know what are good for them. They simply refuse to live in this life without conflict and seeks very antagonistic attitude.
This sentence applies to the israeli side more then it applies to the palestenian side.
But I know what you will never admit that. You have already made an excuse for 40 years of brutal occupation of 3.5 million people.
Re:Since when did Iran become your enemy? (Score:1, Insightful)
When people eventually say "bomb Iran" in this context, though, they're talking about bombing the people, not the government.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
Whoa there!
Is the West Bank and Gaza occupied territory or is it a part of Israel?
If the Palestinians become Israeli citizens you have to make the assumption that they are a part of Israel which is completely wrong.
I'm all for Israeli withdrawal from Gaza and the West bank and letting the Palestinians have their own state and be rightful citizens of their own nations.
But if you are to confer them Israeli citizenship you no longer admit them to have their own free country and that those occupied territories are just an extension of Israel proper (which most Palestinians would say they are not). It would be like telling the Bosnians that there are going to get full citizen rights as Serbians.
So lets talk about given the Palestinians sovereignty rather than a foreign country's citizenship shall we? I'm sure they feel the same way.
He didn't call for the elimination of israel... (Score:3, Insightful)
http://commentisfree.guardian.co.uk/jonathan_stee
Of course it's handy to paint the guy as more insane than he really is. It makes invasion much more supportable.
Do what your lawyer says and nothing more (Score:2, Insightful)
Then follow his advice.
Re:Give the (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Give the (Score:5, Insightful)
That is a load of bullshit. I'm not a Muslim (well technically I am, but only by the definition used in the Quran, not by the definition used in this conversation), but I have read the Quran and the quotes you provide are taken woefully out of context. The Quran is a philosophical and enlightening book and if you pay careful attention to the context, not violent either.
The fanatical lunatics who terrorise civilians and who drag the Prophet's Name, Peace be upon Him (although he probably ends up rolling in his grave every time they defile His name with their acts), through mud at every chance they get are no more faithful Muslims than the Spanish Inquisition were loving Christians.
Feel free not to take my word for it, but rather than visiting some anti-<insert religion here> site, go to the source and read their holy scriptures with an open mind. Also do not forget to bear in mind the time and place they were revealed, that help explain some of the more interesting laws.
As far as translations of the Quran go, I've been given to understand that George Sale's translation is very good.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
But can you say that the US (or any other country for that matter) mass media does not wear the same blinders of a different sort? His view are no more or less distorted than that of the average popular opinion piece.
Everyone has their own blinders. But it's a question of degree. His views ARE far, far, FAR more distorted than the average opinion piece. Just because everyone has bias doesn't mean everyone's opinions are equivalently valid.
And secondly, he doesn't argue from honesty. I don't know if it's deliberate, but he's infamous for quoting out of context and oversimplifying to the point of absurdity. I tend to think that he's not dishonest, but he does have some psychological problems.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
Palestinians are also denied citizenship by all Arab states, due to an Arab League decision of NOT allowing Palestinians to be absorbed by any Arab country (thus keeping the pressure against Israel).
Re:Since when did Iran become your enemy? (Score:2, Insightful)
1) Have said that they want nuclear weapons, and are actively pursuing nuclear technology
2) Have said that they want to wipe [the government of country Y] from [history]
3) Seem to be spreading fear through their military and covert actions
And how is this different from US actions and the statements of US politicians?
(Point (3) is particularly ironic since it is US covert actions that toppled the democratically elected government of Iran in the first place.)
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
But anyways, history shows us that the Palestinians were the first aggressors. And this aggression dates back before the 1300's. The ottoman empire sold the jews the land around Israel, there have been squawks between them for ages. After WW1 this flared up again and now Israel is an independent state and Palestine is still a territory making bad decisions. Israel was originally intended to be open to all without regard to their religion. Under the Balfour proclamation, this was supposed to be the way. With Israel getting attack and successfully defending herself, that is gone.
Palestine started a war they couldn't win and they lost land in the process. Every time Israel intends to give the land back, and they have made more then enough concessions, the Palestinians attacked Israel again. They make it clear they only want th land to launch ranged attacks at innocent civilians. I don't see why that is acceptable to some. But if Israel really had issues fermenting from religion, they could easily just wipe all the palastine people out and be done with it.
Re:Give the (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:"Give the" a break... (Score:3, Insightful)
It doesn't matter, Russia has used the Tech they got from Americans indirectly and because of some rogue scientist to supply other nations with the tech. The entire middle east would be a different landscape, Vietnam probably wouldn't have happened and so on. There are a lot of things that came out of the cold war that directly influence stuff we are seeing today. If you cannot see that, You probably not looking. ITAR was born out of necessity even if some have used it for profit.