How Do I Secure An IP, While Leaving Options Open? 281
Tiger4 writes "Let's say I have a photograph, or a television script, or have finally perfected the water-to-gasoline conversion process, or some other piece of non-software but copywritable or patentable IP. I know I want it secured in my name, on this date, in a provable and verifiable way. But being an Open Source, free-to-the world sort of person, I'm willing to share my knowledge to the world, as long as all credit points unambiguously to me. Any attempts at theft could, would, and must be immediately rebuffed by my offer of proof from when I first secured the IP. What, if any, tool or method is available to me in the digital world? MD5 and the like are available to show that copied files are the same as the original source, but they don't show time of authorship unambiguously. The same with Public Key crypto. I could lock it up with a time stamp, but what prevents me from faking the stamp that locks the file? Is there a way to homestead a little chunk of time with my IP's name on it?"
Use a digital timestamping service (Score:4, Informative)
I found this in 30 seconds through Google, did you even look before submitting your question to Slashdot?
Copyright Office. (Score:5, Informative)
Use your lawyer (Score:3, Informative)
When you;re fighting copyers, you can have this opened in the presence of a lawayer or court, have everything verified and checked and then have it re-sealed in the same venue and have all proceedings officially recorded.
Patent it (Score:5, Informative)
The downside is that getting a patent can be a bit expensive.
Publsh it (Score:4, Informative)
Call a notary (Score:4, Informative)
If you don't have a personal lawyer and don't want to mess with the copyright office, you may also have a notary public [wikipedia.org] sign and date a printout of the document. Be sure that the law in your state allows notaries to act in that capacity; I don't think they can i New York, for example.
Advantages: cost and convenience - you might very well know one or have one on staff at your office.
Re:Copyright Office. (Score:4, Informative)
Which is probably why you don't realise that most other countries don't have a copyright registration system.
Re:Use your lawyer (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Use a digital timestamping service (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Copyright Office. (Score:4, Informative)
This is one of those few government services I believe to be legitimate.
-Peter
Notarys... (Score:5, Informative)
You give them a piece of paper, they sign it and keep a copy. If you ever have to go to court they appear as a witness with their copy of the paper.
Re:Self addressed envelope, and 41cents... (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.snopes.com/legal/postmark.asp [snopes.com]
Re:Mail still cancels stamps with a date (Score:3, Informative)
Confer:
Re:Just mail (Score:5, Informative)
http://www.snopes.com/legal/postmark.asp [snopes.com]
This solution is way too easy to fraud. As a simple example:
Have notary notarize several basically blank pages (fill in only as much as you need to convince a notary to mark it).
Mail an unsealed envelope to yourself.
Fill in your 'discovery' 'borrowed' from someone else on the notarized pages years later.
Stick in envelope, seal, sign over seal.
Done!
Re:Use your lawyer (Score:2, Informative)
If you want to protect the functional aspects of your idea (i.e. things within the realm of patents) rather than just the way you expressed it in code (copyright only protects the form of expression, not the how-it-works aspects), then look up "Statutory Invention Registrations" with the US Patent and Trademark Office. They're relatively inexpensive and will act as prior art to anyone subsequently trying to patent exactly the same thing. There are also commercial services that provide similar services for creating so-called "defensive publications."
Re:Notarys... (Score:1, Informative)
Re:Notaries... (Score:5, Informative)
I think this is a state by state thing. I was a notary in Vermont for a few years and I did not keep a copy of what I notarized. I did log the signings that I did, for my own benefit, but there was nothing in the laws governing notaries saying I would have to do so. Basically, the laws in Vermont said that if you notarize something without using proper diligence to make sure that the person signing the document is actually who they say they are, you'd be liable. So it was in the notary's best interest to only accept official identification and try and spot counterfeit ID. However, unless there was a problem, nobody came around to check these things. I just had to swear to the state that I wouldn't knowingly notarize false documents.
DON'T mail it to yourself - and a better alternate (Score:3, Informative)
As others have pointed out, this is a useless tactic. Yes, when you mail something to yourself, it gets date stamped. Great, wonderful. But there's no onus on the post office to ensure that you have properly sealed the envelope in anyway. You could leave it completely open and empty, and they'll mail it to you. Later on, at any time, you can put something into the envelope and seal it.
But what if the post office insists on datestamping over the enclosure of the envelope? Then it MUST be sealed. Sure-- or at least that end of the envelope does. Some envelopes can have two openings, because of the way they're folded. Have them timestamp over the second end. Or unseal the second end and reseal it later.
Or steam open the envelope, and very carefully reseal it afterwards so that the timestamp matches up.
Or use a plain white envelope, and a pair of chopsticks. Roll your document around the sticks, then stick the sticks into the envelope through the bottom where it isn't QUITE sealed along the fold.
There are so many ways to tamper with it. And you forget there's also the question of chain of possession. Who has actually had the envelope from the time it was stamped until the time you present it to the courts?
And what about a biased source? You're suing someone because you claim you own what they're say they own. Your proof? "Because I said so."
The main issue here isn't proving that you own something. It's that you own it, and that you came up with it, and that you came up with it first. As others have mentioned, use the patent office. Use a notary. They're all trusted third parties who can verify the when of it.
And to prove that you actually came up with it-- simple. Show your work. Keep every rough draft, concept sketch, hand-drawn Rose diagram, cvs revision and so forth. If someone does steal the final product, it becomes a huge advantage to you. The other guy says "This is my idea". You say "This is my idea, and here's fifteen boxes of evidence that demonstrate the process I went through to create it." Who do you think the judge is going to believe?
Re:Use a digital timestamping service (Score:5, Informative)
Stop and walk away (Score:2, Informative)
Second, if you're still reading this, there is no such thing as "IP" in the law. There are copyright, patents, trademarks, trade secrets, and possibly a few other things. They are not the same, and disclosure has radically different effects on them. The laws vary from country to country.
Third, it sounds like you're talking about a patent. If so, whatever you do, do not disclose any of it or show work derived from your neato idea until you have talked to a lawyer. Timestamps are the least of your worries, what you really need to care about is killing your chance at the patent before you even get out of the gate. The rules vary by country, and the standards for disclosure vary by country.
Re:Use a digital timestamping service (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Ask a Lawyer (Score:2, Informative)
The UK Intellectual Property Office implies here [ipo.gov.uk] that although posting something to yourself (by Special Delivery) and not opening it upon receipt doesn't prove you created it, it does give you proof you held that information on that date.
From a California Notary Standpoint: (Score:3, Informative)
Simply put, a Notary Public in the United States verifies Identity, not ownership of IP and as such can not usually and damn well better think twice about it; notarize anything that is not a written document with a signature on it. Things like Contracts, Afidavits, Acknowledgements and so on that indicate some type of written response with a signature is required.
Re:USA is different... (Score:3, Informative)
1) Perform signature acknowledgements (verify a document is signed by the person it says it was by requiring the personal appearance of such person with proper ID. A common example of this is real estate mortgages as you alluded.
2) Administer oaths for sworn statements (jurat/affidavit). A common example of this is sale of a vehicle where you are required to swear that the information on the ownership title is correct.
Some additional duties can include: administering the oath of office for elected officials, making certified copies of documents that are not subject to public recording, etc.
Re:Copyright Office. (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Copyright Office. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Use StampYourDocuments.com (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Patent it yourself, or forget the whole thing (Score:3, Informative)
Look, you either have an object, which is patentable, a work, which can be copyrighted, a symbol, which can be trademarked... or you have an idea, which is only protected until you tell somebody else. If you don't want to share, don't.
I'm afraid that objects are not patentable, it is the design of the object or process the object implements that is patentable (an invention). The point behind a patent is not to keep something to yourself, it's to license the process/design/etc to someone else. The licensing aspect is what makes it property.
In that vein, I'm not really sure what the submitter of this question intends to do, so it's hard to give advice, but here are some rules of thumb:
If it's something you want to publish the expression of an idea (in words, music, video, etc), copyright it (with the copyright office)
If you want to license the idea itself, patent it.
If it's a logo or name that you want to use to sell something else, trademark it.
If you want to just keep it secret, just don't tell anyone; or do the appropriate NDAs, etc as a trade secret.
And I have to say, IP in all its forms (copyright, patent, etc) does exist. Just ask a musician (recording artist), author, or inventor how they make their money.
Re:WGA Registry better (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Use StampYourDocuments.com (Score:2, Informative)
While certainly not technically accurate, I think it is a good approximation of what a hashing algorithm does. Remember, most customers do not know anything about computer science.
> Second, they do not provide you with cryptographic proof of registration. I don't see what the point of such a service is if they don't provide you with that. Even there "registration certificates" don't seem to actually certify anything since they don't contain their own signature.
StampYourDocuments.com used SHA-512. If by crypotgraphic proof, you mean something like signing your document with their private key, then you would have to share your document with them, which would defeat one of the main advantages of StampYourDocuments.com. They certify that a certain piece of data existed at a certain date and time, that's it (and that's all they promise to do). By the way,
> This would be great proof if there was some way to access those signatures if needed. They don't say that there is.
First, you could ask StampYourDocuments to turn over the information they supplied to the Copyright Office, or you could have StampYourDocuments testify. If, for some reason, you can get SYD to turn it over, subpoena it from the Copyright Office. Remember, if you really NEED the info directly from the Copyright Office, you are already in a lawsuit.
> For example, there certification letter contains a timestamp in Pacific time.
Based on the date and time of the stamp, you could convert any time to UTC. They are based in Los Angeles, so they observe daylight savings. They have to pick one time zone to store in their database, so Pacific Time is as good as any (I would think UTC would confuse many people).
> Since most of the actual verification exists only on their servers and you pay a yearly fee, it would appear that if you terminate your service, you lose all your timestamps. They don't say otherwise, and that *really* concerns me.
First, see the subpoena from the Copyright Office above. This pretty much moots your argument. Second, they have a lifetime membership option. From what I understand, when your membership expires, you only lose the ability to generate new certificates (and to view your stamps in one convenient place). You could always print out your stamps from the document log (plus, all the stamps are saved on your computer).