How To Configure Real PC Parental Controls? 618
Orange Crush writes "As the resident computer geek in an office full of accountants, my boss recently asked me how she could reasonably keep her teenage son from using the family computer to 'access inappropriate sites.' I of course responded 'Give up now. There's nothing in this world that can keep a determined teenager from acquiring porn.' Sadly, she was dissatisfied with this answer. I mentioned that there was in fact software available for this purpose, but that all of it was trivially easy to bypass for a clever young mind. I really can't think of another answer. She could password protect the BIOS to prevent booting a different OS, but that's easily defeated with a screwdriver at most. The only solutions I can think of involve upstream firewalls/proxies/etc to which I gleefully redirected her to her ISPs tech support number. As much as I disagree with her reasoning — and ignoring the obvious 'go to a friend's house' loophole — is there really any other way (on a home budget) to netnanny a household computer?"
Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
My opinion is that she should just approach her son and talk to him frankly about any issues that she's concerned about.
CyberSitter (Score:1, Insightful)
I shudder at the lack of trust between this young man and his mother though. If it is justified, he will probably end up in jail once he turns 18 and can no longer be legally restrained.
logging firewall and TALKING (Score:5, Insightful)
Technology is not a substitute for good parenting, but it can be a useful tool for it.
place in public area, remove ram. (Score:4, Insightful)
If you must... (Score:3, Insightful)
firewalls/proxies/etc (Score:4, Insightful)
That is about all I can think of that really works. The other thing I would do is to not actually block anything, but to maintain copious logs and review them regularly. I think it makes more sense to have an open frank discussion with your child than to simply block access. There will always be a loophole to blocked access, but there is no way around a parent who is genuinely interested in their child's welfare.
Edwards' Law (Score:3, Insightful)
"You cannot apply a technological solution to a sociological problem".
It's not exactly true. You can very well do so. To expect a determinable result is to court dissapointment, however.
Training (Score:5, Insightful)
You can't be with your children 24/7, and they will leave the house someday (no basement jokes needed). You need to train them to think for themselves, and how to recognize good and bad decisions before they learn the hard way.
A measure of character is how you act when nobody is watching. Do you want a child that knows he shouldn't be looking at midgets with horses porn, and keeps his own activity in check? Or do you want a child that you have to keep in check using technological measures?
I wonder if people once had the same discussion about chastity belts.....
I think you hit the nail on the head. (Score:5, Insightful)
Any sufficiently motivated teen will circumvent even the best system. You can try to fight human nature, but in the end you will lose.
I'd put my money on the kid ending up even more depraved as a result of such a tight parental grip.
Easy (Score:2, Insightful)
How hard was that?
(and if you plan to respond with why this won't work, don't bother, I have no desire to read excuses from lazy parents)
MyEyes(tm) works wonders (Score:4, Insightful)
Next step is NoFun(tm). Kid gets caught doing someting mommy doesn't want him to, mommy takes away some priveledge.
You can't fix this with technology. Not on a home budget, anyway.
Parenting (Score:5, Insightful)
But this is your boss, and not someone you want to give this lecture to. Just throw the names of some filters and/or logging spyware for corporate intranets at her, and let it go. Do not fight her battles.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
In other words if I was being monitored by my parents I'd have simply found a way to make sure they can't see what I'm doing. At worst I'd have told them to f-off and challenged them to do something about it.
Re:parenting? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:place in public area, remove ram. (Score:5, Insightful)
I've worked at multiple ISP's and it amazes me how surprised parent's are by this answer. They had never considered moving the physical computer an option before I mentioned it.
I agree with the consensus of the other Slashdot posts that no amount of software is going to solve the problem. If the computer is in their room and they have unlimited time to work on it, any software can and will be circumvented.
The best solution is not technical (Score:5, Insightful)
Our daughter (in 8'th grade) is similar but different. Her issue is also spending too much time surfing sites like myspace and deviantart, and IM'ing with friends. Educating her has been a little harder, but instead of blocking her machine, we moved it out of her room where it is easier for us to keep an eye on how she's spending her time. Since doing that, she is gradually learning to balance her time better.
Ultimately, your kids are going to be out on there own, and it is better if they can learn to balance their time (with your help) before they're gone than just block everything and have them leave with no time management skills.
Re:covenant eyes (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:5, Insightful)
So far my kids are 4 and 6. I just use Mac OS X parental controls and they can only visit the sites I book mark for them in Safari. They can't get to getfirefox.com to download it, so problem solved for that.
As my daughter (the oldest) gets older i'll loosen it up a bit for her as they each will have an account on the machine. I'll log IM chats and use it to gauge what's going on but I'm not going to search it obsessively.
I look at it this way, I'm a guy, I've used porn, I found it without access to the internet in the early 80s. All it takes is one older brother, one parent, one shoplifting experience and that magazine will be passed around the school until some moron either drops it while walking down the hallway in front of a teacher or is a freak and reports you too a teacher. My wife and I are not afraid of porn. As long as the US Government doesn't go insane in the next ten years it's going to be something both of my children will find out about it, right about the 11 - 13 range if history holds true. Admonishing them for that lovely hormonal surge that is going to happen whether I like it or not and their exploration of it isn't helpful and creates the puritanical environment we enjoy today here in the states. I still fight my upbringing of being ashamed of the human body and somehow just the site of it is 'evil'. Little thing called intent that needs to be adjusted more than just existing.
That being said, there are several tools available to baby sit your kids computer expierence, pick one and recommend it. I thought there was a windows package that would do similar features that Mac OS X does with the parental controls on IE 7 but i can't find it now that I'm looking for it again.
Re:Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
technology isn't the solution (Score:4, Insightful)
I can't fathom not allowing my teenage son to view porn. It's the one great teenage pursuit. It's more productive than knocking up some 16 year old girl. That would be great parenting!
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:5, Insightful)
In other words if I was being monitored by my parents I'd have simply found a way to make sure they can't see what I'm doing. At worst I'd have told them to f-off and challenged them to do something about it.
You sound like you were a spoiled brat whose parents needed to give a serious attitude adjustment. I would've taken away your computer for a couple of weeks if you spoke to me like that (or if you bypassed my measures), probably along with your cellphone, your ipod and all your music. And if you still had a bad attitude, I'd take your door off the hinges. If you STILL didn't get it, I'd come to school with you and follow you around, making sure your friends saw you, until you begged for mercy.
Re:Not really (Score:3, Insightful)
And that's not counting porn that gets shared privately via personal ftp and websites, or through filesharing apps.
I've pretty much determined it will be impossible to stop my kids once they're that age and are actively searching for it.
PLEASE MOD EINSTEIN DOWN (Score:4, Insightful)
So, let me get this straight: almost every young male who disobeys his mother's command not to look at dirty web sites, will "end up in jail once he turns 18"?
Re:parenting? (Score:4, Insightful)
Indeed. Before the internet, we'd sneak a look at our dad's (or a friend's dad's/big brother's) stash of Playboys.
I'm pretty sure my childhood friends didn't suffer any psychological damage from it.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
See that's what my parents tried, all it did was teach me that parents have a limit and all you need to do is be able to survive past it. You apparently are just like them and don't realize that if you keep challenging your child they will learn how little power you really have.
What I Did (Score:4, Insightful)
I also took to checking the computer for where he had been. I only had to point out 2 times that his attempts to delete all traces of his 2AM trips to the porn sites had missed a few traces (deleted photos. Windows never really erases a deleted file.) He stopped using the family computer for that kind of thing completely. Of course, I still checked from time to time, till he moved out on his own.
A history list that is blank is the first warning sign. A simple search for temp HTML or JPEG's will often turn up the evidence. An undelete utility is handy too. A tool that reports locations where files have been zero'd will let you know quickly if there has been an effort to tamper. It's not too hard to keep a step ahead.
For those times when one of the children try to cover up the screen, I just killed the power to the machine. Worst case, I might have to re-install the software. Lots better than losing a kid to some online pedophile.I had to let the children know that there is no privacy when safety is involved. after a couple of kills, they stopped trying to keep us out.
Watch out for Myspace (and its clones) with young girls, they trust everybody and question nothing (except the parents). The boys are marginally better. Especially after 16 or 17. My favorite news story of the last year was where the 35 year old pedophile masquerading as a 15 year old boy onnline went to the mall to pick up the 13 year old girl he had arranged a 'date' with and found out that she was really a 45 year old cop who was working with the guys probation officer.
Sometimes there is justice.
You see, there is no substitute for parental presence. There never will be. If your boss wants to really protect her children, she needs to be there with them. Not out bossing you. Sorry, that is just reality. She can't have it both ways. None of us can. She will have to pick the one that is important, and let the other one go.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
That is a battle a parent can *never* win against a determined teenager. This is an intelligent human being who lives in your house. Once you take enough away from them that they no longer think they have anything left to lose they'll either completely ignore you or start retaliating.
A much more reasonable solution is to realize that children are human beings and once they start valuing privacy and autonomy it's 100% reasonable to let them have some. Just because you're their parent doesn't mean you need to be administrating their life. Further, if you can't convince them to do what you want there's very little chance you'll productively force them.
Re:parenting? (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, what is she really worried about? Is she questioning her job as a parent and worried the big, bad internet is going to so corrupt her son that all of the important life lessons she has imparted will be pushed aside?
My pups aren't teenagers (which really means anything from 13 to 19 - and can warrant very different actions in terms of guidance), but as a parent who thinks of himself as responsible (and pretty liberal, frankly), let me tell you; yeah. It's pretty much me vs. the world, and I'm constantly paranoid about what other information is burrowing its way into their mind and taking root.
If you've raised kids, you'll know that they are sponges and there's no way to predict what's gonna take hold and what they're going to ignore.
There's a lot more to be cautious of on the internet than porn; and let's not forget that there IS porn on there that is about as far away from healthy sexual curiosity as you can get. There's also scams, fraud, malware, etc, etc, etc...and we can throw in the predator thing - although the media has blown that out of several proportions.
There are many aspects of a child's education that are the parent's responsibility; and do not fall into the normal school curriculum. Media education (including the internet), in my opinion, is HUGE. I'm expecting to spend enormous effort on it. How to perceive television and movies; fiction versus reality, how to look at advertising critically, and now that the news has become infotainment I've gotta try and figure out how to encourage a healthy interest in the world around them while at the same time explaining they can't take anything said by anyone at face value. Then there's the internet, which is a whole other category.
First, I've gotta spend a lot of time explaining how to use it safely - before we even get in to what to do and what not to. Safe browsing's gonna be a little more than just "don't sit so close." Malware, spam, phishing, trojans, cookies, privacy, internet permanence, and explaining there is no such thing as total anonymity -- and we're not even doing anything interesting yet.
So, frankly, if a parent isn't worried - I'm not sure they're doing they're job.
Yeah, obviously responsible people of good conscience will disagree about the appropriateness of a lot of internet material - but there is some stuff that I'm pretty sure we can almost all agree on, and I'd value reliable tools that help me prevent that from exposure. I'm not trying to keep the kid from seeing tits - but I am trying to keep them safe.
My planned approach? Start with pretty locked down access (I've got a router and the skills to more or less pull that off), open it up over time as they learn and mature, and I'm going to monitor what they do. You're freakin' right I am. That doesn't mean I'm going to pour over every mail, and I'm certainly not going to do it secretly. They're going to know I'm watching from the time they start using the internet; I'm going to tell them, and I'm going to tell them it's gonna happen at school and work, and throughout the rest of their accessing lives.
That approach is not to be taken lightly, obviously. I view it like watching the kids at the playground. Watching to keep them safe, occasionally telling them to 'stop that or you'll break your neck', is not the same as jumping in and managing the kids every time they tussle over a toy, or argue about who is 'it.' It can't be a mechanism for trying to make them behave the way I want them to. I'll have to be an adult about it; I can't read every mail, and I can't come down on them because they call me an ass as they IM to their friends. And yeah, there's screw all I can do if they're at someone else's home.
If the woman in question doesn't have the skills or time for that - she can use some software, ask the ISP to block stuff, let the mail provider filter the spam; and she has to accept that it's going to be an imperfect situation.
Re:Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
As for disallowing SSH tunnels -- I don't know where you get "trivial". Port-based blocking is right out, as there's a command line option to bypass that. Even if you had a protocol-level filter on the line that only allowed HTTP traffic, and only allowed valid HTML characters in the HTTP stream, I could still form an SSH tunnel by base64 encoding my SSH traffic and wrapping it in HTTP requests.
If you knew what was going on and were willing to put the time in to it you might be able to stop me, but it's at best an arms race so long as I have the ability to execute programs on a node inside your network, control of some host outside your network, and any ability to form any sort of IP connection to the outside world.
That being said, I agree that the grandparent sounds like a dipwad.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:2, Insightful)
You still assume I have a reason to listen to you other than my own temporary convienience.
No, actually (Score:3, Insightful)
That being said, my parents weren't careful and I did shit they had no clue about (one time they sat me down because they thought I was 'doing things' which they never specified, I showed them my internet history, which was clean... I cover my tracks
Re:Slash-parenting? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
That's what I tell people when I get similar requests. Put the computer in the living room, explain the rules and hope your work as a parent has been effective. All she is doing by attempting to lock out "inappropriate" material is making said material more desirable and at the same time telling her son she really doesn't trust him. It's like asking him to provide a urine sample to prove he isn't using drugs or alcohol, or to take a lie detector test to prove he isn't cheating on his school work. What's she going to do when he starts driving to make sure he doesn't speed? Is she going to accompany him on dates to ensure he doesn't engage in unprotected sex? Is she going to follow him around stores making sure he doesn't shop lift?
She should tell her son that sex is a natural and healthy part of life for adults but viewing pornography on the family computer is not acceptable. And she should realize it is not the end of the world if his curiosity gets the better of him some times. There is plenty of intolerant, racist, sexist, negative imagery and speech on the Internet. I would be more worried about him being exposed to that, but that's just my opinion.
And to the person who modded you Redundant, try using your mod points to promote posts you think are Insightful or Interesting. Save the negative mods for those who are truly abusive.
Re:Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
It might not stop them seeing porn, but it will bloody well make sure that the kid learns how much his parents trust him and respect his choices.
If he's determined enough, give up. (Score:1, Insightful)
If he's clever and determined enough to bypass a siteblocker, keylogger or other monitoring software, then give up. Twenty -ish years ago, I was an thirteen. I was trading floppies of
Got any Victoria's Secret catalogs arriving in the mail? Do you get the Sunday paper with the lingerie ads? Does his school newspaper/yearbook have pics of underage cheerleaders in their short skirts? Your kid will find something to spank it to. Try to focus more on him getting good grades and not turning you into a grandma.
Re:parenting? (Score:5, Insightful)
So you want a domain for all porn sites. Who decides what's porn? The internet covers the planet. Some countries don't have a problem with a womans breasts, while others say you can't look at a womans body at all. Can you define porn? Would you say images of genitalia? What about the statue of David? Where do you draw the line between porn and art? What would happen to someone who posted porn on a non-xxx domain? Who do you want to police the internet?
Comcast doesn't "rely on porn for their profits." They simply provide a service. Internet Access. Nothing is going to block 100% of porn, and that's why they don't offer it as an option. What do you think would happen the first time some holy roller walked in on their son rubbin' one out to some porn that managed to get through the filter? They'd get sued. So they don't try. They leave it up to parents to make sure the kids don't surf inappropriate material.
And the snide remark about their cable lineup? What the hell? They just pick what stations to broadcast in their packages, and that's mostly driven my consumer demand. The stations create the content, Comcast just makes those stations available to you. You want them to drop Fox because there are too many adult situations? Or are you referring to actual porn channels? because last time i checked those had to be requested, they weren't exactly part of basic cable.
ug, you made me defend comcast. i feel dirty.
There is only one answer to this (Score:3, Insightful)
God, I hate people with avoidance issues. Especially when they're raising children.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:4, Insightful)
Actually, it sounds like he'll have a pretty good handle on the real world. He's clearly willing to put up with a lot of abuse rather than buckle under what someone else wants, solely because they have the power to punish him. Secondly, he also appears determined to get what he wants in that he thinks up ways around how others try to restrict him. If you ever seriously followed through on absurdities like following your child around at school or taking a door off, then there would be one of two results. Your child growing up into a timid, submissive adult, or more likely, pushing them to the point where they strike back at you. Seriously, there are plenty of things a child can do to hit back. Not least of which would be reporting you to the social services for (a) removing their door so that they were monitored at all times (b) following them round school, (c) denying their educational needs by preventing them from using a computer at home. Oh, and I think someone mentioned beating the child further up the thread. All that teaches is that when the child is bigger and stronger than you, there is no longer any basis for them to respect you any more. A close friend of mine was beaten a lot as a child. When he was nineteen, he went home and broke his father's jaw and possibly some ribs as well (I'm not sure).
The poster seems to me to have grasped early on a very important lesson. Freedom is a willingness to accept consequences. Took me until I was twenty-four to realise that.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
Since one of the reasons why children don't have full legal rights but are under their parent's power is that they don't have sufficient self-control to use them wisely, I have to question the wisdom of your statement. A month-long detention is absurdly harsh punishment for a mere insult (and a mild one at that), likely shouted out on impulse in the first place, and it won't stop such impulsive behavior in the future, since its cause is organic immaturity of a child's brain.
So basically, it is unjust and doesn't stop such incidents as future, and even if it did it the cure is excessive in relation to the illness, so to say.
Of course it's also possible that you simply happen to be the kind of egomaniacal control freak who gets children in order to have someone to boss around, excercize power on, and inflict arbitrary and excessive punishments upon at the slightest hint of anything besides absolute obedience. In that case, please fuck off, drop dead, and burn in Hell, you sick little freak.
Re:PLEASE MOD EINSTEIN DOWN (Score:3, Insightful)
The ones that try to reenact porn in real life are the ones that would be doing that sort of thing whether they saw it in a film or not.
Re:parenting? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd mod you up if I had the points. That was very well-written.
Appreciated, though when I re-read it, I think I fell into the trap of overusing the word "safe." I stand by what I said about how I plan to handle the internet thing, and safety is certainly an issue - but I meant to talk more about managing the introduction of what's out there, and educating them on how to approach/avoid/process it.
It can be hard for a parent (well, me) to keep objective and separate what is an actual threat to their child from what, frankly, they're just not ready to handle yet...then of course there's what we parents are not ready for them to handle yet. ;>
Putting too much of that material under the category of "safety" is what leads to things like the "thinkofthechildren" meme. Images of hysterical parents condemning everything is certainly fair criticism, but for those of you without little ones, please believe me when I say that it's an incredibly hard job, with more nuance than can realistically be managed perfectly, and you often feel like you've got the whole multi-billion media industry against you.
I want to raise intelligent, critical, reasoned people with healthy egos, tempered consumer appetites, and the skills to thrive in the good times and cope in the bad times. Play about five minutes of television in opposition to that, and please forgive my momentary impulse to board up the windows.
Re:parenting? (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:The short answer is the right one... (Score:3, Insightful)
Wow, how much did you pay for your psychology degree?
The first part of your post is pretty much on the money. Then you got to this point, and totally lost it.
A concerned parent is a GOOD thing, regardless of their technical naivetee. Being later than she should have been (and how much later--is he 13 or 17?) isn't ideal, but she's trying to deal with things. Accusing her of having sexual hangups and disliking porn as a result is total and utter conjecture on your part.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
My parents failed because they thought punishment could induce respect on its own. Rather over many years it eroded that respect to almost nothing.
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
Don't confuse the rules of society with your obsessive parenting. Everyone has to deal with the former, whereas only your unfortunate children are forced to deal with the latter.
Sheltering? (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not really (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:logging firewall and TALKING (Score:3, Insightful)
Actually, no. Impulse control develops as the brain does. No amount of punishment can hasten this process, altought it can instill learned helplesness, which might look a bit similar in the beginning. The only thing consequences teaches is what impulses should be controlled.
Fear isn't respect. Respect can't be forced, it must be earned. Altought I admit that it is a very useful skill to be able to pretend respect towards people who have the power to hurt and/or harm you.
Besides, if you teach your kid to show respect by punishing him whenever he doesn't, won't he simply continue to do what you've taught after you aren't the authority figure anymore, and bow down to anyone stronger than himself - the government, Mafia, religious demagogues, political leaders...? Is that a good value to learn ?
If you want to teach someone respect, show it yourself. Monkey sees, monkey does. But trying to force someone to be respectful will simply teach them that it's okay to hit - methaphorically or literally - those weaker than yourself to make them "respect" you, which is fine if you're trying to bring up future Mafia members but not otherwise.
If you think that "fuck off" is worth a month-long detention, or any significant punishment for that matter, then a sense of proportion might be a value that you haven't yet learned. In fact I'd go a step further and say that treating any show of disrespect as deserving harsh punishment might indicate that the parent himself has some serious issues with his self-esteem or confidence, and is reacting out of fear and pride rather than any rational reason.
And yes, "fuck off" is a very mild insult. It isn't even really an insult, but rather a rude way to tell someone to leave the speaker alone. It is worthy of a lecture on manners, not punishment (besides the inherent punishment value of a lecture from a parent ;).
Re:parenting? (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:Not really (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Not really (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:covenant eyes (Score:3, Insightful)
The other thing, of course, is not to be such a neo-puritan prude.
Re:parenting? (Score:4, Insightful)
You will probably not think that I am doing my job. I have two kids, 15 and 10 and I am not worried in the least about what they will find on the internet. Both of them have run across porn and both of them quickly ignored it. The younger one thought it was gross and the elder one did not wish to see it.
While I am checking their computer for spyware, malware and other baddies, I do look through their browser histories and such but they have no idea that I check such things. All of their online activities are 100% innocent even without the fear of me monitoring them.
I trust my kids 100% but I do know that children can make mistakes which is why I check sometimes. I have taught my children about all sorts of things and let them explain to me how it could affect them. I tell them they can do anything they want and they turn around and limit themselves even more than I would limit them if I were an authoritarian parent.
At their ages, I was always rebelling against my parents. I swore I would never be like my parents and it has paid off in spades. My kids get excellent grades, A- is the lowest for the 15 year old and a B is the lowest for my 10 year old. All of their teachers have always complimented me on how courteous and hard working both children are. Both children are well disciplined and never do anything (major/serious) that I would not want them to do. Most importantly though, both of them love and trust me. They know that they can talk to me about _anything_ even if it is embarrassing or against the rules.
A web filter is bad parenting in my book. The real world does not censor itself and showing your kids a censored world will only hurt them by limiting their view/knowledge. Murderers, child molesters, thieves, etc do not perform their crimes only on other bad people. They perform their crimes on innocent people too. Better yet, innocent people make great targets because an innocent person does not know what to look for or know how to defend themselves. When they run across bad stuff make sure that your kids can, and will want to, talk to you about it so you can provide the knowledge that they need to get along in this world.
Teach your children properly and you will have less to worry about. (kind of like the saying, "do not tell lies so you do not have to remember as much")
strike
Re:parenting? (Score:4, Insightful)