Replacing a Thinkpad?

An anonymous reader writes "As a very happy Thinkpad T20 user (still working after 7 years), I always planned on replacing it with another Thinkpad T-series. However, Thinkpads are now produced by Lenovo, a Chinese company, and I can't quite bear to buy Chinese while the Burmese military are shooting at monks with the Chinese Government as their biggest backer. Maybe this is silly, as whatever I buy is likely to be made (at least in part) in China... but still, what are my options for something as well built as the Thinkpad T-series?"

the t series

[bakamaki]

I've repaired and issued a lot of laptops in my day and I'm not aware of a true competitor to the T series in terms of chassis design. The current T lineup is really nice, but expensive. I'm starting to think I'll get myself a Dell 1420n with Ubuntu for my next box. Granted it's not a rugged laptop but I don't really need that kind of durability. You could consider the Toughbooks, but I really don't have any practical knowledge of them.

Ummmm

[tgd]

You do realize Lenovo is selling the Thinkpads now because... *drumroll* they were the company that made them all along?

check ebay for a used thinkpad

[elwinc]

Check ebay for a used thinkpad. IBM still made them in 2005, though they were made in a Chinese factory.

MPC

[Askjeffro]

Expensive, but well built and assembled mostly in the US to my knowledge. I recommend doing more research and not just taking my word for it. :) Good luck.
http://www.mpccorp.com/ [mpccorp.com]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MPC_Corporation [wikipedia.org]

no, actually your logic is flawed

[Anonymous Coward]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tu_quoque [wikipedia.org]

Re:Ummmm

[OS24Ever]

How do you define 'make'?

Reason I ask is the same building where Lenovo computers are 'made' (IE Physically Assembled) is also the same building Apple, Dell, HP, Acer, and many others are made. The company is contracted out to make just about everyones laptop.

China has taken over the manufacturing of *so* many products that we use day to day in the United States (and every other country) that it would be downright impossible to function by 'boycotting' anything Made in China.

I started to look into it after the tenth toy of my kids was recalled. My son's wooden trains, my daughters dolls. Fun stuff. Not that my kids chew on them or anything but still, figured I'd send em in.

So I started wondering what I could get as far as a toy without Made in China on it.

in Short, you can't easily. A specialty store sometimes you can find things made in maybe Europe somewhere, but US made things are hard to find and anything non-chinese is pretty hard as well. Forget about shopping at Wal-Mart. That's the retail arm of China now.

In this current global environment it's impossible for a company to be cost competitive because as a consumer we've been trained to throw out everything and focus on price. If this toothpaste is $0.50 cheaper than that toothpaste, I'm gonna buy it. Never mind that one keeps a family in the US employed and has strict laws about what can go in it vs. the other guy putting antifreeze in his mixture in china.

What's a person to do? It can be done, but it's not something that is easy.

Desktops are made in Hungary

[REBloomfield]

The last lot of Lenovo desktops we brought were made in Hungary. Get one of them instead...

That's a tough one.

[ErichTheRed]

Very little compares to the durability of the ThinkPads, at least in the non-rugged category. You pay dearly for them, but they last forever compared to other notebooks.

Even Dell's Lattitude business line still feels like a toy. Dell really improved their notebooks over the last iteration, and they're still crap. HP's business line (not the consumer junk with the blinky blue lights and 17" monitors) is the only one IMO that comes close to IBM/Lenovo's case design and construction.

If you really want rugged or semi-rugged, you probably need to look at the Panasonic Toughbooks. They're solid, but they're 20% heavier than they should be and you compromise on case design for durability. (Side note, if you buy the true rugged Toughbook, it's assembled in the US (probably for military contract requirements.) You pay accordingly too...list on some of the rugged models is in the $2000-$3000 range.

Your other choice might be a MacBook Pro, but those aluminum cases don't look like they can take a beating the way the old ThinkPads can.

(By the way, everything's made in China now. If it wasn't, you wouldn't be paying the cheap prices you get for hardware now.)

Singapore, not China

[qw0ntum]

For what it's worth, I just looked at the bottom of my T60 and it's from Lenovo Singapore. Granted, it's made in China, but you'd be hard-pressed to find a laptop these days that isn't.

I love my T60, too, by the way. Runs great with Ubuntu as well.

We use Apple MacBooks at our middle school...

[Anonymous Coward]

We use Apple MacBooks at our middle school and they've held up really well. No one is harder on computer equipment than little kids. The laptops have been real durable. So from personal experience, I'd recommend an Apple MacBook. You might like Mac OS X, but if you don't, you can always load it with Windows and/or Linux.

Re:check ebay for a used thinkpad

[korbin_dallas]

I got my T-40 from this place.
http://www.usedpc.com/ [usedpc.com]
It was flawless, and I buy used laptops exclusively.

I was not aware the the new Lenovos were like the 'T' series, more like the old 'R' series, am I wrong?

Re:You're aware?

[kilgortrout]

What about South Africa? The extensive boycotts there were instrumental in ending apartheid.

Re:clarification

[onemorehour]

According to wikipedia, the Chinese government owns a large share of one of the companies that owns stock in Lenovo, and so it effectively owns 27.5% of the company.

If the original poster is advocating for responsible consumerism, and suggesting that we look up the shareholders of a company and only support the company if we support the shareholders, then I'm all for it. However, it sounded like the original poster was saying: "Lenovo is Chinese. China is bad. Therefore, I don't want to buy a laptop from Lenovo."

Fujitsu

[James Jazz]

First off go to notebookreview.com to see which Laptop suits your needs. In your case, I would seriously look at a Fujitsu Lifebook. They are excellent machines, an E series or S series would be the perfect thin and light for you. But they are assembled in Osaka, Japan and NOT in Third Word mainland China. Checkout Panasonic Toughbooks although they are somewhat pricey. I believe Dell Latitude are assembled in Malayasia. HP Compaq are made in China. I think Samsungs are put together in Korea (although loads of Samsung products, especially Consumer Electronics are made in China). I really hope these Burmese Generals end up in front of a firing squad. I also hope no more monks or civilians get hurt. The way fucking Russia and China have backed the Burmese Junta sickens me. These two countries spawned Stalin (Georgian) and Mao. The biggest butchers in history. They also backed Pol-Pot in Cambodia in the 1970s. Maybe the Russians and Chinese are the greatest threat to the Free World and not some deluded Muslims.

Why cant we mod stories themselves?

[kasek]

I have moderator points, and i'd much rather mod the story as Troll or Flamebait, than go through and mod up all the comments pointing out the flaws in this guys logic behind avoiding lenovo.

Re:the t series

[samkass]

The toughbooks have the mindshare, but the Mercedes of rugged laptops is IMHO the Itronix GoBook XR-1 [gd-itronix.com]. (disclaimer: I work for General Dynamics.) But unless you're planning on taking this aboard a bouncing Stryker in desert heat or into a swamp in combat situations, any "MIL-STD 810F"-ruggedized laptop is almost certainly overkill.

For an office environment, the consumer/business laptops are all basically made by the same people at the same facilities out of the same parts these days. Get whichever one has the features you need at the price you like with the plastic shaped the way you think looks good.

Re:by that logic...

[djbckr]

Agreed. I was a guest of China for a couple of weeks (adopting a girl). My translators (who shall remain nameless) told me how bad/corrupt things are. It was very dangerous for them to even tell me and my wife, but they wanted to make sure as many people as possible knew how bad it was. I fear for their lives.

Re:Ummmm

[mr_mischief]

At one time, they were making them as a contractor for IBM. IBM designed them, and paid people to do that. IBM sold them, and kept the markup. Now the money is going all to Lenovo. Yes, they got part of it before, but part is not all.

When IBM was selling them and having Lenovo make them, the story about Burmese police shooting at monks hadn't really broken yet, which is part of the OP's problem with supporting Chinese companies. Their tax yuan go to support this kind of stuff.

Many laptops are actually made in large part in Japan, South Korea, Singapore, or Taiwan still, aren't they? Perhaps someone needs to have a list of where components are sourced for the different brands and where the different models go through final assembly.

Re:Ummmm

[OS24Ever]

Strange, the 10,000 some employees here in research triangle park, nc would probably disagree with you about their nationality.

Panasonic Toughbooks.

[iOsiris]

Check out the Panasonic Toughbook lineup. Our police force uses these and I assure you they are rugged and they work anywhere. There are different types of ruggedness: like the fully one, I know for a fact works even in -50c, rain, etc. (our police force uses these) and then the semi-rugged kind which may be more practical for an office setting. Although, I think they're a bit expensive, if you were planning on getting a Thinkpad anyways, its build quality is up there. Also, Panasonic Toughbooks are not manufactured in China and are made by its parent company Matsushita.

Re:Yes, you're being silly

[kwanbis]

IBM has 20% of Lenovo, so if you buy from them, 20% goes to IBM (more or less). Besides, what development/r&d you really think Dell does on their laptops? If there are any two companies that do research, IMHO, are Lenovo and Apple.

Possibly Asus?

[Entropius]

You could get an Asus laptop. Owned by the Taiwanese, and made in Taiwan (or at least that's what's stamped on the bottom of mine).

Why just buy from not-China when you can buy from their enemies?

Re:Yes, you're being silly

[Knara]

++ this

Not buying a laptop from a country doesn't hurt the people whose actions you object to, but rather the people who make the laptop (who, by and large, have a way better standard of living working in assembly plants than they did in rural, dirt-poor farms).

Re:by that logic...

[chill]

I was waiting for one of you uneducated morons to pipe up.

The Sudan and Burma are loaded with oil. Burma also has massive reserves of hardwoods, precious gems and several other resources.

These are the reasons China is neck deep in both countries and the primary arms suppliers to both governments. India just signed oil exploration agreements with Burma and Russia is negotiating with them for Natural Gas rights.

Shoes: New Balance

[moosehooey]

Since you mentioned shoes, I'll say that New Balance makes most of theirs in the US (and clearly labels which they are). In addition, they seem to hold up very well. I usually wear out shoes quickly (read: I'm a fat motherfucker) but the New Balance ones seem to last about twice as long as comparable "sweat shop" shoes.

Fujitsu

[Anonymous Coward]

Their T2010 is touchpad-less like ThinkPads.

Racist?

[JewGold]

And attacking a successful "chinese company" because you do not agree with the policies of the (oppressive) government of China is racist

That's quite an assertion there. When you give money to a Chinese company, that income is taxed by the Chinese government and part of the purchase price goes directly to support the atrocities committed by the Chinese government. This isn't speculation, this is fact.

At what point does anybody's race enter into this?

Re:Yes, you're being silly

[1u3hr]

Well, yes, but ALL the money, at least in this case, goes to china

Of course not. Unless you mail order it from Beijing. Where are you going to buy it? In the US. At least half the money will stay in the US. From Wikipedia

Its executive headquarters are located in Raleigh, North Carolina, USA, the home of IBM's former ThinkPad group, and in Beijing, China. It is incorporated in Hong Kong. As of May 31, 2007, 39.6% of Lenovo is owned by public shareholders, 42.4% by Legend Holdings Limited, 7.9% by IBM and 10.1% by Texas Pacific Group, General Atlantic LLC and Newbridge Capital LLC. Because the Chinese Academy of Sciences, a Chinese government agency, owns 65% of Legend Holdings, effectively the Chinese government owns about 27.5% of Lenovo and is the largest shareholder.

Buy a second-hand Thinkpad in the US, then 100% of your cash will stay here.

Re:by that logic...

[confused one]

Assembled is correct. My Dell Dimension came from an assembly plant in North Carolina. The Dell parts, however, are almost all stamped or labelled Foxconn -- a Chinese manufacturer. The drive is a WD (I think); I don't know where that's made. The processor is an Intel, the silicon is processed in a Fab in the US, but is packaged in asia somewhere (Malaysia?) ....

Re:Taiwanese manufacturing in Mainland

[ahfoo]

Well, I don't know what a nice guy like me is doing in a thread like this-- slow news day I suppose. Anyhow I'll go ahead and pitch in a few cents.
        You won't find anything directly exported from Taiwan intentionally labeled as "Made in China". No way. Not by a long shot. The "Made in Taiwan" label is a big deal here. There are ads on TV all the time showing examples of Europeans and Americans using low quality flimsy products like umbrellas that fall apart and then focusing in on the label that says "Made in Taiwan" with the idea that these commercials are meant to shame local manufacturers into improving their quality standards to raise the brand value of the "Made in Taiwan" label. It works. People get pissed when they buy local stuff that sucks and shopkeepers catch hell over it if it says "Made in Taiwan". Generally stuff made in Taiwan isn't as cheap as mainland stuff. For mainland stuff it's expected to be low quality just as "Made in Japan" is assumed, sometimes dubiously, to mean quality. Sometimes in certain product categories nobody cares as long as it more or less works and the price is right.
        There are some product categories where Taiwan is still weak though.Capacitors is one. There are great electronics shops here and you can get Taiwanese caps for a few cents or Japanese ones for about five times as much.Local solder is also like a third the cost of imports even from China. Lots of electronics stuff from Taiwan is just dirt cheap but good luck reading the freakin' manuals. Gotta love a Chinese spec sheet. Even standard units like ohms get translated into characters that mean something totally unrelated but sound like oh mu. Everybody can guess that one right?
        Anyway, back to the thread here. You're right that China Airlines is a Taiwanese carrier and both sides have their own China Telecom and China Rail, China post and other similarly named industry players, but that does not extend to labeling Taiwanese goods with a tag that says "Made in China". That would not happen. Thats not to say that there aren't Taiwanese operated and owned factories in mainland, but if a product is made in Taiwan and exported from Taiwan you can be certain the tag will say "Made in Taiwan" and not "Made in China".

Re:Yes, you're being silly

[ScrewMaster]

BUY AMERICAN ONLY!

I agree with your sentiment, but that is no longer possible for an increasing array of products. China has, deliberately and with malice aforethought, stripped us of much of our key manufacturing capability (much like Japan before it, but only on a vastly grander scale.) China has systematically purchased as much heavy equipment and machine tools from U.S. manufacturers as it can get its hands on ... a lot of it for pennies on the dollar, after the previous owners either sold out to China or went out of business (no real difference there, when you get right down to it.) Much of that hardware we are no longer capable of reproducing. They may or may not have need of it themselves, but because we don't have it anymore we can't make anything with it.

Good for China. Not so good for us. I grew up thinking we were smarter than that ... I'm sorry to find out I was wrong.

Re:Yes, you're being silly

[jamar0303]

off-topic, but I can see the iPod factory from my school classroom window in Shanghai (at least, all my classmates tell me that).