Experience with Fighting Domain Farming 259
Lost_my_regs writes "I had a .com domain name relevant only to me, no legal trademark, registered and hosted at a provider that went bust. When attempting to re-host the domain I discovered, to my unpleasant surprise, that the domain is now registered by a domain farming company (name removed). My question is: Is there any way to claim back my domain?"
In a word, no (Score:5, Informative)
Re:In a word, no (Score:5, Informative)
If the registrar was ICANN certified, the domain registration should have reverted to ICANN or another ICANN provider when the company went bust. If the company was a subsidiary of another, the registration reverts to the parent. You do not lose the registration, you just get moved to a different registrar (though there can be some period of time while it all gets worked out). Sounds to me like you failed to follow the transfer or failed to pay when it came time to renew. Perhaps your spam filter shitcanned their instructions on how to start using the new registrar.
The relevant ICANN policy
SLD is second level domain.
ICANN policy [icann.org]
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If the registrar was ICANN certified, the domain registration should have reverted to ICANN or another ICANN provider when the company went bust. If the company was a subsidiary of another, the registration reverts to the parent. You do not lose the registration, you just get moved to a different registrar (though there can be some period of time while it all gets worked out). Sounds to me like you failed to follow the transfer or failed to pay when it came time to renew. Perhaps your spam filter shitcanned their instructions on how to start using the new registrar.
The relevant ICANN policy
SLD is second level domain.
ICANN policy [icann.org]
Very good find and post here. You should have logged in so people would see it.
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If people don't read AC posts that's their own problem. Read at -1, Nested!
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-- Pogo
Re:In a word, no (Score:5, Interesting)
I've always used a separate registrar from the hosting co's. The sad fact is every jerk in the world is a hosting provider nowadays, but you know some hosting co's and registration co's aren't going out of business any time soon. Sometimes that means spending $10/yr instead of $6/yr for the domain, and then do your bargain hunting for the hosting. The name can be important... where it's hosted is a much more flexible affair.
So to the poster... make it a lesson learned, you're not getting the name back.
The most important part, perhaps, is that there are reasonable ways to make sure this doesn't happen... WE DON'T NEED MORE RULES AND REGULATIONS!
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The other issue is do you know what happens if/when you move your site to a different hosting provider ? Will you encounter resistance, either in the form of a blanket policy restrict
Re:In a word, no (Score:5, Insightful)
Take GoDaddy.com, a domain registrar who fairly often blackmails their customers for hundreds of dollars on domains they keep that should have been allowed to expire and been available publicly again. ICANN should warn them, and revoke their license if they continue in anti-trust behavior. It shouldn't be allowed in the first place, I'm saying, and ICANN should make sure it doesn't happen secondly.
Of course 'the market' should stop going to GoDaddy and thus 'the market' should decide, but that shouldn't prevent ICANN from implementing something effective to stop problems at the source.
Registrars in the habit of making you check a box agreeing to a service arrangement with a clause basically giving them power of attorney 'on your behalf' should find in court that such a clause, at least, is void. Likewise, GoDaddy's clause that they will keep a domain you do not renew 'on your behalf' but ask for exorbitant fees for doing so should been seen for what it is.
And if GoDaddy was forced to release expired domains back into the public pool there would still be this problem of domain snipers picking up the domain from the public pool to do that same exact thing. Just because someone else will do it doesn't mean GoDaddy should be allowed to. I do wonder how one could demonstrate that domain squatting is what is occurring without squatters finding a loop-hole or way to appear legit, or otherwise what rule would help solve this problem, but that doesn't mean none exist.
You YELL that we don't need more rules and regulations, but the majority of domains registered today are squatted hoping to make money on advertising from inadvertent visitors or selling the domain to someone who wants to use it, actually, for real. This is a shit-situation that should be counter-acted.
If you let your domain expire, it should go back to being available to the public. The fact that it doesn't go back into the public pool makes me sick, and more-over hurts the public while being illegit. Half of the domains I want to register have place-holder pages as they wait to ask hundreds of percent of the registration cost for the domains use. That fact indicates their is something broken with the domain name marketing system.
The stock markets may be much more detrimental and there are probably some larger issues there, but they do occasionally convict for insider trading, and ICANN should take a tip from that and not allow domain sniping. If you know that someone is potentially interested in a domain available to the public and you go and register that name in order to get that person or entity to buy it from you, that's wrong and should be illegal. What reason do you have for saying we shouldn't have a process for resolving the illegitimacy of that action?
As for all the squatters betting on domain names that have general appeal, it's true that this is just as illegitimate, but at least it doesn't target individual persons or entities. I'm not convinced that you should be able to hold on to a domain name (reserve it) for longer than a year without having a particular use for it. This is a less black-and-white situation though.
It's true that we've heard horror stories from the days of supposed trademark holders taking away legit domains from legitimate domain holders - let's learn for those lessons, and from lessons of today, and create namespaces (fix the ones we've got) that have more common sense and repel more detrimental registrations...
Re:In a word, no (Score:5, Interesting)
If I let one of my domains expire, it's really none of my business who or why it gets picked up afterwards. All I need to know is that I let it expire.
If I don't like that GoDaddy picks them up after expiration... then I shouldn't use GoDaddy. If I use GoDaddy, and it gets picked up by them after I willingly let it expire, it really isn't your place to complain that you can't have it. It was never yours, and you're not entitled to it. Sorry.
The fact that someone bought the domain you want and put ads on it may tick you off... it's happened to me... but I don't think it's illegitimate. So long as they're paying for the name and hosting, I don't get to cry foul. Similarly, if I buy a site and put a lame site up that maybe only three people in the world are interested in, tough... that's my business.
Again, we do not need more rules and regulations.
One way to get it back.... (Score:4, Interesting)
A lawyer friend sent a letter to the new owner, basically saying the obvious: you have no use for this domain, and you need to give it back or we'll come after you.
The company returned the domain to her instantly, with apologies for their "mistake".
I'm sure the letter arriving on stationary from a huge, powerful international law firm didn't hurt.
Anyway, what they are doing is obviously cybersquatting, which is illegal. And if they're trying to make a quick buck here and there, they certainly can't afford to defend themselves against thousands of lawsuits.
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The new owner should have thrown the letter into the recycle bin, as your friend knew that not paying would cause her domain to be released for re-registration.
I don't like domain squatters any more than you do, but I like "look at me, ME ME ME ME FIRST!" I'm-entitled-to-everything jerks even less.
Re:One way to get it back.... (Score:4, Interesting)
If she wanted to be able to whine that her stupidity lost her her domain, she should have registered it as a trademark. If it had been registered, that would have been mentioned in the post (although if I'm wrong I want to know; but in that case, a trademark law firm would have been sending the letter).
Don't want to lose your hard work?
Don't do something stupid like forget to pay your bills.
Don't like it?
Don't be stupid.
(Yes. I have done very stupid things before, but I knew the rules applied to me too. I dealt with it. I didn't become an entitlement whore who expected other people to give up things that were rightfully theirs).
Re:One way to get it back.... (Score:4, Interesting)
Funny you should mention this because Microsoft did indeed forget to renew microsoft.com a few years ago. Some guy bought it and pointed it back at the servers so microsoft.com would keep working and then called MS and said.. uhh.. hey, you probably want your domain back.
As far as I know, MS paid him for the registration fee and maybe a small amount as a thank you for keeping microsoft.com up and running but that was about it.
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Here is the story on the register [theregister.co.uk]
Enjoy!
Re:One way to get it back.... (Score:5, Interesting)
A lawyer friend sent a letter to the new owner, basically saying the obvious: you have no use for this domain, and you need to give it back or we'll come after you.
The company returned the domain to her instantly, with apologies for their "mistake".
I'm sure the letter arriving on stationary from a huge, powerful international law firm didn't hurt.
Anyway, what they are doing is obviously cybersquatting, which is illegal. And if they're trying to make a quick buck here and there, they certainly can't afford to defend themselves against thousands of lawsuits.
I can register any domain I want (and do look at the recently available lists most registrars offer to their clients) without any legal ramifications... The only time it's illegal, as I understand the rules, is when a domain is grabbed up with the intention of profiting off of someones trademark and bad faith registration can be demonstrated (I remember the Mike Rowe Soft thing from a few years back... He was fine until he offered to sell the domain to Microsoft, at that time, the extraordinary fee (Several grand for the domain I believe) was proof of bad faith...
Re:One way to get it back.... (Score:5, Informative)
If it included her distinctive name and business, the squatter is liable. And regardless, even assuming he wasn't, the squatter would need to contest a subpeona that's likely in a different state, after consulting a lawyer, et cetera, et cetera.
The marginal cost for bulk domains is something like 20-50 cents per year. One lawsuit which costs a thousand dollars to have dismissed costs the squatter thousands of names he could otherwise potentially profit from.
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Find them... (Score:5, Funny)
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a) Repeat the above after it expires and some other automated domain farm snaps it up
or
b) spend the next 25-to-life* being careful about not dropping the soap
I guess killing the domain squatter may have its momentary element of fun, though.
* Apologies for the Americanism
Sum it up... (Score:2)
Unless your are big with lots of money and lawyers, it is not going to happen. You will have to buy the domain back from them, that is how domain farmers stay in business.
Ever hear of auto renew? Standard option on any halfway decent domain registrar.
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Getting Your Domain Name Back (Score:2)
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Trademarks (Score:2, Interesting)
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For a trademark to be valid, you have to declare that its a trademark. You generally do this by placing the letters "TM" after the mark or R in a circle if you've registered the mark. If you just use the name and don't include that notification then it's not a trademark and you have no protection under trademark law.
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If I open Bill's Diner and register the trademark, no one else can open a Bill's Diner anywhere in the US that there isn't already a Bill's Diner. If they do, I can sue and win.
If I open Bill's Diner and place a "TM" after it, no one else can open a Bill's Diner nearby. By placing the TM after it, I have claimed the trademark even though its a relatively generic name.
If I open Bill's Diner and do nothing, someone else can open a Bill's Diner a block aw
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A further ovresimplification. Most trademarks are not national in scope, they are state-by-state. Most companies register their trademarks with the Secretary of State in the states in which they do business, not at the federal level. It's usually about 20x cheaper (some states charge as little as $10 for five years).
If every company's trademarks were regist
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Here's a link to the Secretary of State's application form for registering a trademark in Illinois to get your started in recovering from your snarky dumb-assedness: http://www.cyberdriveillinois.com/publications/pdf_publications/c2466.pdf [cyberdriveillinois.com]
Yes, you can register trademarks state-by-state. You're the one who needs to do some research.
Keep Offering (Score:3, Insightful)
No, go lower on the counter offer. (Score:5, Insightful)
I would say start lowering it. They come back with $5,000: come back with $50.
Those people are out for easy money. Easy money should be peanuts or less.
Be prepared to walk so that they'll lose and they'll lose because the domain name is only good to the person who's responsible for this article. Meaning, after they're registration time is up, they'll abandon it themselves. Paying them is to only get it back sooner.
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Believe it or not, those people are human beings too.
That is unlikely. The kind of creature who does this, knowing that they will at best be taking advantage of another party's reputation and at worst actively damaging them to make a profit, is probably a lower life form. Even if their actions are technically legal and, at least for now, permitted by the domain registration authorities, those actions are still unethical at best. In other contexts, analogous behaviour would be bordering on criminal.
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If you disagree with that then I have a bridge on sale that you might be interested in, you dimwitted fuck.
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No they're not. The biggest question when dealing with them should be whether the assault charges are leveled by the police department or PETA.
Sue (Score:5, Funny)
Great Idea (Score:2)
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Was it not yours? (Score:2)
In future use the trade mark rules (Score:5, Insightful)
The domain now has no value to another as they cannot use or sell it without violating the trademark. You also have a much stronger position in the various appeal processes.
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Doesn't quite work this way, as the article submitter indicated that the domain name is meaningful only to the submitter. Might I suggest a more authoritative source, such as this link [uspto.gov], instead of depending upon Slashdot for legal advice?
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First, never let a web host be all the contacts in a domain registration. It's hard to prove you're the registrant, admin, or billing contact when you're not the registrant, admin, or billing contact. Register the domain yourself, and configure the DNS to point to your web host's servers. If they don't like that, then move on, as many other big boys are okay with this.
Registering your trademark or servicemark (for services) with the USPTO helps, as long as someone else doesn't already have the domain in
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Sorry, but your advice is not good advice for the masses.
Get a trademark (Score:2)
Please Clarify (Score:2)
Is that what you are saying?
domain name squatters (Score:2)
I may be wrong but I think as long as the domain is kept current the registrar is owns the domain and nobody could take it, even if the host goes bust.
FalconBuy domains directly from registrars (Score:3, Insightful)
Things like this are why all the domains I've bought in the past have been bought directly from a Registrar.
Hosts going out of business is not the only danger with domains. There's also the practice of hosts keeping the domain if you ever choose to switch hosts.
As for registrars, the only advice I can give is to avoid GoDaddy [slashdot.org], as they cave to big corporate interests.
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Good domain registrars:
Gandi.net [gandi.net]
DynDNS.org [dyndns.org]
Not the cheapest, but both are Good Folks(TM).
This recently happened to me. (Score:4, Interesting)
This was upsetting enough by itself, but what really caused me to become enraged is that the same company that bought it and sold it back to me [i]IS A LICENSED REGISTRAR[/i]. Granted, they do it under a couple of different names, but it's quite clearly all the same operation, or at least willing co-operation. The fact that this sort of thing is allowed to go on shows that either ICANN allows it or is completely inept in regulating it. The only question is whether they are incompetent or swayed by money at some point in the process.
Think bigger (Score:2, Funny)
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My first reactions to that are "yuck" and "ouch".
How it happened makes a huge difference (Score:4, Insightful)
Wait! Patience! They may be a "taster".. (Score:5, Insightful)
Wait. Don't contact them. Don't make any waves.
Often - very often - a domain farmer picks up the domain for just a week or so (no matter how long the WHOIS says it's really registered for) - and waits to see if the pay-per-click ads generate enough revenue to make it worth keeping. So often the best thing you can do is...nothing. Don't visit the site (generates traffic), don't contact them (tells them they have a chance of milking you for $), don't do anything - just sit and wait. Often the name will get dropped and another farmer will pick it up immediately - but if you're patient and check back in with the WHOIS, you should eventually see it free again for long enough to grab it.
This may sound ridiculous, but it's how the domain name economy is currently working, courtesy of weak ICAAN rules. Make it work in your favor - you want that one name, but they want 100,000 that generate enough revenue to make up the low ($3.50/year? can't remember) ICAAN fees necessary to hold on to it. (They know WIPO arbitration is going to cost you $1500+legal fees, so in that route the numbers are on their side.)
This has worked with the .com versions of two different domain names held by non-profit clients of mine just this year. Good luck.
mod parent up! (Score:2)
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If you can make these squatters think your interested in some pointless domain, they're more likely to hold on to it for longer and try to sell it back to you for an extortionate rate.
So we find some worthless domains, offer well below what they want, and when their counter offer comes in just say you'l wait for it to expire... Get them to renew the worthless domains for a few more years.
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When it expired, it was immediately converted to a ad/spam/link farm type of page. After several weeks it was released and I was able to get it back.
I am not sure how businesses deal with this. O
Re:Wait! Patience! They may be a "taster".. (Score:5, Insightful)
I was able to pick up a domain that I wanted this way recently. I knew that the domain would not be renewed (defunct company) so I put an order into goDaddy's domain backordering service. Someone else snagged the domain, but after a week, it was available again and I got it.
This works because of a huge hole in the registering process -- the registrars have 1 week to pay the fee or give up the domain. Thus a registrar can "test-drive" a domain for a week. If ICANN got rid of this ability to return the domain without payment it would go a long way towards removing registration abuses.
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I let it lapse, and within 48 hours it was picked up by a farmer company, and still is to this day, four years later.
I like their webpage. "This domain name has just been registered for one of our customers. If you're interested in purchasing this domain name please contact..."
Please Clarify (Score:5, Interesting)
If that was the case, when your site was registered was it in your name or the ISP's name? Who was Technical contact, you or the ISP?
If it was in the ISPs name and they went defunct and were bought, then you're screwed.
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That would depend on the agreement between customer and ISP. I.E. Whether the agreement b/w ISP and customer states that the domain belongs to the ISP or the customer.
Or whether the ISP is merely acting as an agent or bailee of the customer in registering and managing the domain on their behalf.
I guess if the ISP has already been liquidated; the time for the customer to file any necessary legal paperwork to claim THEIR property in possession by the company being liquidated has probably come and
who owned the domain? (Score:3, Interesting)
If they can't show it, then threaten to sue and then sue.
Registars need a signed transfer document from the owner to transfer domains. However if the domain was never on your name anyway then your shit out of luck.
A few months back this even got stricter because domain squaters where sending out transfer forms to companies with a bullshit letter that they should sign it. (it still amazes me that that actually worked) So now a days you can also lock your domain name, which means that before the domain can get transfered even more hoops have to be jumped. And i believe depending on where you are, theres a quarantine time, before the name can be released again.
Process Issues for Registrar Bankruptcies (Score:5, Informative)
This account seems somehow wrong. Did you leave out some material information from the story?
Did this happen to you on a yearly boundary? If not, and if you had a registration on the domain that was good for a year, why couldn't you just go to another domain provider and identify yourself for a transfer? Was the account in good standing? Am I confused, or is this information not a matter of public record that extends beyond the end of your term of registration? Is the registrar at which you bought it the only source of record for such information? That would sound terribly dangerous as a single-point-of-failure for the web in the case of any kind of disaster, much less bankruptcy.
Additionally, did you get no notice? Did you just come in one day and find that your domain no longer responded and that all domains at that registrar were up for grabs? If so, that again seems very weird. I thought a bankruptcy required some court intervention at least for the purpose of asset divvying, and the notion that the registered domains were not an asset that required deliberative action seems odd to me. Possible, certainly--I'm not a lawyer and don't know the process. But odd nevertheless.
Did you act at the moment of the bankruptcy--or did you wait? That is, was your problem the result of the bankruptcy or your failure to act quickly? I realize these issues are probably sad and embarrassing, and I'm not meaning to rub salt in a wound. But Slashdot articles inform people about how the world works, and in exchange for the attention and good advice you offer, I think it's good to offer a complete accounting of the story.
Are you sure you're not leaving out some information? Perhaps the left-out information is not relevant to the question you were asking, but implicit in the question you were asking is alerting people to something that might happen to them. And I'd like to understand better the process by which this could happen to someone else so that we all, as a community, might understand if there's a process issue that needs fixing to assure proactively, rather than reactively, that this shouldn't happen in the future.
Sorry about your problem, btw. Losing a domain happened to a friend of mine by the more usual means of just failing to pay for it for a while. Someone scooped it up and they were left paying a couple hundred dollars to get it back. I agree that's a nuisance, but it does argue for keeping payments up to date on things you care about.
Obtaining a new domain? (Score:2)
4Chan had this happen last night (Score:2)
Types of registrars (Score:5, Informative)
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Sure, there are differing levels of customer service, but o
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I transferred all my domains away from them a few years ago. Their systems were primitive; their processes were set up to make it as hard as possible to make changes, particularly any change like "transfer a domain away from them".
And they're very expensive. It's not about being stingy, it's about not getting value for the $35 a year or whatever it is they charge, when other registrars will provide better service for $8 or less.
I know how he feels (Score:2)
Sincerely,
Mr. Apple X. Ibm
Registering Your Domain Through Your Host (Score:2)
What I described above is always a bad idea. Register your domain through a st
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The UDRP is much more streamlined and cost-effective than other methods of dispute resolution such as going to court. Complainants often win even weak cases because many respondents do not even try to dispute the claims. Only 14% of UDRP disputes that have been decided were decided in favor of the respondent.
The poster does not even need a lawyer to proceed with a UDRP complaint (it might help, of course). Information about the process is available from ICANN [icann.org].
Re:Buy it (Score:5, Informative)
Even so, I'd try everything I could before resorting to paying the leeches. It's just too distasteful for words.
Re:Buy it (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree this is the crux of the problem. I wish Google would move against domain farming, but as parent points out, they're the industry leader.
Had a similar thing happen to me with a domain which I was using much like the OP. I had the
Re:On a related note... (Score:4, Funny)
Let me guess, your last name is mylastname? Unique, definitely, but unfortunate I'd say.
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So that's how they register all of these expiring domains: well trained and literate monkeys that are shackled to computers and then forced to read lists of expiring domains before repeatedly filling in the form required to register them!
Don't waste your spare monkey - set him folding, or running SETI or something!
Re:Ask nicely (Score:5, Interesting)
I did what you suggested, asked nicely, offered to double his transfer expenses, explained that I was setting it up for some friends doing a circus.
He was a total and complete jackass. Hurling obscenities, suggesting unreasonable prices ($100,000). I gave up. It wasn't worth the effort or the agony. I did manage to call his mom, who had the phone number that the account was registered to - the guy was in college and didn't have a phone. The poor woman sounded like she had had this conversation dozens of times. "Please, I don't know why my son is doing this, can you speak to him and ask him to stop, I'm getting so many calls, he's just out of control..." Eventually he anonomized the whois.
That domain name is STILL hosted by a domain name farmer - don't know if it's still him. I expect whoever it is uses some metric of number of hits to determine how valuable a name is, so listing it here might bump up its value.
Domain name farming should be killed. If you're actually using a domain, fine. But if you're just holding it waiting for someone to pay an unreasonably high price, someone with a legit claim (say, the previous owner) should be able to snipe it back.
"NO PARKING!" (Score:2)
Domain name farming should be killed.
How about a parked-site blacklist? It could be implemented by a Firefox plugin, or an app that modifies the hosts file for users of other browsers. I can imagine it wouldn't be hard to convince even the least IT literate user that this is a Good Thing.
HAL.
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While you're at it, you should try to save some time and just do away with all types of speculation (real estate, stocks, arbitrage, gold, coins, stamps, art, etc.). Or maybe there's some significant difference between domain name speculation and other types of speculation (all of which are quite legal, BTW)?
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Re:Ask nicely (Score:4, Insightful)
Real Estate - you can buy it, improve it, sell it on to someone who is unable to improve it themselves
Stocks - you buy it and a company gets an investment to spend and improve their business
Gold - meh, we don't need it, everything is based on 1s and 0s. No-one misses it if you 'buy' some and it remains sitting in some bank vault somewhere
Coins/stamps - Millions of almost identical ones. To most people they don't have much value or use.
Art - it was designed to be collected and displayed
Domains - squatters (which is what they are) don't improve it after they buy it. In real estate terms they leave it to rot with minimal attention and invest nothing in it. In terms of stock then no-one (except the registrar) sees the benefit of an investment, and they're getting bulk purchasing so it isn't as much as it could be. In terms of gold then people actually need domain names, since the only other alternative is IP addresses and folders that aren't portable. In terms of coins and stamps then each is unique and they have value to the masses that want to visit. In terms of art then they were created to access a website, not a load of adverts, and they certainly weren't designed to be collected.
So I think there might be one or two differences there.
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Or, you can hold on to it, prevent it from being used by anyone else [aol.com] in the hopes that its value will appreciate or that you will gain some indirect benefits.
Stocks - you buy it and a company gets an investment to spend and improve their business
A publicly-owned corporation does not benefit directly from the machinations of the stock market. When you buy a stock (except in the case of an IPO or reissue), y
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Point is proven.