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Education Math Science

Have Mathematics Exams Become Easier? 853

Coryoth writes "The BBC is reporting on a recent study in the UK that found that the difficulty of high school level math exams has declined. The study looked at mathematics from 1951 through to the present and found that, after remaining roughly constant through the 1970s and 1980s, the difficulty of high school math exams dropped precipitously starting in the early 1990s. A comparison of exams is provided in the appendix of the study. Are other countries, such as the US, noticing a similar decline in mathematics standards?" Readers with kids in school right now may have the best perspective on changes in both teaching and testing methods -- what have you noticed?
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Have Mathematics Exams Become Easier?

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  • Pay teachers more (Score:5, Insightful)

    by kramulous ( 977841 ) * on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:09PM (#23659045)
    Clearly this is happening ... in the western world anyway. It's the only way that schools can keep up with the shear numbers of parent classified geniuses.

    We've noticed this 'dumbing down' (thanks Idiocracy) for a while now at Uni. The newer mathematics students enrolling in first year are lacking some of the basic skills. Example: a couple of years ago, trigonometric functions and identities were completely removed from the high school syllabus. It goes back all the way to year one at school.

    I don't think teachers are being paid enough and they are certainly not valued enough by the community. Once upon a time, the best and brightest minds went into the teaching profession; it had respect and was highly valued. Now, it's whoever wants to become one, winner by default. The best and brightest need to be attracted back. Why would somebody who has the ability to earn more than four times the national average wage go into a job that earns less than the average wage?
  • by spir0 ( 319821 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:10PM (#23659055) Homepage Journal
    we don't want to upset the poor children or make their lives too difficult. their parents might sue.
  • Finally (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Zelos ( 1050172 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:12PM (#23659109)
    I'm glad somebody finally pointed this out in black and white. I remember lining up A-level (UK age 18 exams) maths papers from the 80s and 90s, you could see the questions get easier almost year-by-year.

    Yet every year the exam results get better and the government congratulates itself on improving standards while denying the exams are getting easier.
  • by amrik98 ( 1214484 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:12PM (#23659113)
    There is strong pressure on the education system to "improve"; and these improvements are measured by tests. Students are generally not going to get smarter, so why not make the tests easier to make it seem like you are doing your job?
  • by Ynot_82 ( 1023749 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:14PM (#23659137)
    This is trotted out every single year

    pass rates go up - exams are getting easier. education system in decline
    pass rates go down - teachers not able to communicate with students. education system in decline
  • scalability (Score:1, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:20PM (#23659227)
    In 1950, the world needed on 1-2 percent of graduates. The businesses and lifestyle was geared that way. Only few engineers were needed for railroad, aviation, shippig, auto, tv and construction.

    Today, you need some mathematical background knowledge everywhere. This means that you have to lower the exam standard and let people move on. Today's automobile engineer doesn't sit down with complex geometry solving. Good computer skills with less mathematical knowledge is acceptable too. Such person would have been useless in auto engineering division in 1950.
  • by Kohath ( 38547 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:22PM (#23659259)
    No one is going to say that the teachers are doing a better and better job every year. No one is going to say that the students are held to higher and higher standards in math and that they are achieving those standards more often than before.

    This is because it would be false. You might get arguments about the extent of the change, but none on the direction.

    And nothing in education will ever improve in the US as long as the system is union-controlled.
  • General request! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by xaxa ( 988988 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:22PM (#23659267)
    Could everyone put their country in the comment, if applicable? It saves people arguing back-and-forth about the same point, when both are correct for their own country and experiences, but on opposite sides of the world ;-).
  • Re:tools (Score:3, Insightful)

    by xaxa ( 988988 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:28PM (#23659371)
    And you carry your TI-93 round with you? I don't, but I still use very basic maths at the supermarket.
    Brand X: "Buy one, get one free!"
    Brand Y: A few pence cheaper, and a larger pack too.
    Brand Z: "25% off!"
    How many people today can't work out which is best?

    (UK supermarkets even do most of the work for you, below the price for every product is printed something like "1.50 per kg", so it's very easy to compare prices -- you only need to work stuff out if there's an item on multi-buy promotion, in which case the 'per' price will still be for a single item.)
  • by hairykrishna ( 740240 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:28PM (#23659379)
    I know that this story gets touted around every year but I think there's some truth in it. I tutor some 1st year physics students and their math skills are shocking. They can follow 'recipes' well enough to solve questions they're used to. However, present them with a problem where they have to actually think and they're stumped.
  • by shadowkiller137 ( 1169097 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:29PM (#23659381)
    instead of a dumbing down I would say that there is more of a split happening between the people in advanced courses and those in the lower level courses. those in the lower courses are not being taught as well and like you said basic concepts are being removed but those in the higher level courses I think are being taught more advanced concepts than previously at that level and age. The standardized tests however must be able to access the whole range of people taking the test so they must be made easier because if the people with the lower training in math got all 0's on the test it would not show at all what they learned, in their own basic way.
  • by sedmonds ( 94908 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:29PM (#23659391) Homepage

    I don't think teachers are being paid enough and they are certainly not valued enough by the community. Once upon a time, the best and brightest minds went into the teaching profession; it had respect and was highly valued. Now, it's whoever wants to become one, winner by default. The best and brightest need to be attracted back. Why would somebody who has the ability to earn more than four times the national average wage go into a job that earns less than the average wage?


    Not only do teachers not get paid enough to attract and retain the good ones, but teachers unions and the fear of lawsuits make firing the awful ones nearly impossible.
  • by Manip ( 656104 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:32PM (#23659435)
    I think that is more likely the case of pushy parents.

    Education is turning into almost a two tier system. There are those kids which are pushed by their parents and aim to succeed and then there is everyone else.

    The kids who push hard all fight over a small handful of places in top schools fighting off with multiple public and private schools (who often are rubbing the Uni's asses).

    It does amuse me that we have these moral panics about exam difficulty without really addressing the key question - Does it teach then what it intends to? And are the subject's goals in line with what is needed?

    Looking at grades as an answer to either question seems about as intelligent as asking the cows about the weather.
  • Re:tools (Score:3, Insightful)

    by everphilski ( 877346 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:34PM (#23659473) Journal
    WalMart here in the US generally has the price per unit marked.

    And yeah, I do carry my TI-89 with me, but I'm an Aerospace Engineer. Without that, my mechanical pencils and my ID card I'd be naked! :P
  • by homer_s ( 799572 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:38PM (#23659545)
    ...can keep up with the shear numbers of parent classified geniuses.

    Clearly, your English teacher wasn't paid enough.

    But other than that, the problem I see in this country is that the consumers of education have no choice. And like in any other monopoly, the provider gets away with poor quality.
  • Re:Finally (Score:3, Insightful)

    by afidel ( 530433 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:40PM (#23659581)
    Yeah, I'm sure you would see a similar result in the US. The reason being that you now have to pass the exams to even graduate and simple jobs like working at McDonalds require a high school diploma so making the tests too difficult for the majority to pass is simply unreasonable.
  • by Sycraft-fu ( 314770 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:52PM (#23659769)
    Also, in general, we are slowly getting away from this idea that memorization is what is important and what makes you smart. Part of that is simply that these days it is much less useful, but there has also been development in educational theory. We do not need or want our children memorizing tons and tons of facts. That really isn't helpful. If I need something remembered, I'll have my computer do it. It's way better than you. We need them learning how to think.

    Well, since education used to be so much heavier in the memorization it is no surprise that the tests are "hard" for people today. I remember getting in to this argument with someone I knew. They'd found a test posted online that was a highschool graduation test circa 1900. They used it as an example of how much "harder" school was then and how I couldn't pass it. Well, turned out I could, but only because I'm a trivia junkie. I know lots of useless facts, and there was a whole lot of the test that was full of it. The geography and history sections were nothing but. Things like matching capital cities to states.

    Ok, well that's neat and all, but it is quite thoroughly useless. There is no reason to know that. If you want to, great, but don't pretend like it is useful knowledge or that you are smart because you can do it.

    So ya, people today had trouble passing the test, but that doesn't mean the test was hard, it meant the test was different.
  • Re:tools (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Coryoth ( 254751 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:53PM (#23659787) Homepage Journal

    Slashdotters are an anomaly because our careers and interests require us to do maths all the time. If the future historians are allowed to slack off on their trig tests, so what? They weren't going to be engineers anyway.
    It's interesting you say that, because the actual report was noting the economic impact of the lower numbers of students actually going on to complete higher level mathematics (in part, they claim, due to poor preparation based on lower standards). Apparently there is actually quite a demand for the skills that mathematics education can impart; high enough demand that employers in the UK are noting the lack of suitably qualified candidates (apparently financial insitutions in the UK are looking to France these days, since they produce more and better mathematicians).

    Sure, not everyone is going to go on in mathematics; some will be poets, some will be historians, and so on. It is also true, however, that most people don't have their future that well written by the age of 16, and having a solid enough background in a variety of subjects, including mathematics, literature, and history, to be able to keep future options open to exploration is important.

    doing the math is going to be easier, even if they didn't ask harder questions. However, the amount of automation these days means that most people aren't ever going to have to do the harder math in their daily lives.
    No, doing the mathematics is not going to be easier; sure the computational grind is easier, but mathematics is not arithmetic. Constructing rigorous logical chains of argument, and symbolic manipulation within formally defined systems; understanding how abstraction can be used effectively, and how it can be taken too far; and being able to think coherently and correctly about abstract entities -- these don't magically become trivial given a calculator. Personally I think part of the problem is that we've lost sight of what mathematics is, and what mathematics is not [stuff.gen.nz]. Modern mathematics courses are simplifying away what matters in favour of shallow coverage of surface material.
  • by thtrgremlin ( 1158085 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:53PM (#23659799) Journal
    I know my fellow coworkers would crucify me for this, but I think the biggest problem with teachers getting a fair wage is the Unions. Are teachers at private schools getting screwed over so bad? I have been working in public education for 7+ years, and the unions have fought hard to ensure that kindergarten and high school teachers of any subject all get the same pay. And what has happened as a result of that? In the democratic process of wage negotiation, few grammar school teachers really care a lot more about teaching than getting paid. With the smaller class sizes necessary for grammar school, there is disproportionately heavy representation for these teachers that "aren't in it for the pay". They have spouses that make all the money they need. These are also the same teachers that have the time to go to all the union meetings while the 20's something, single high school teacher is home grading papers and working on the next weeks lesson plan. I am all for "Same work, same pay", but you just can't say that a high school advanced math teacher does the same work as a grammar school English teacher. I am not going to say one is harder, cause that isn't the point; just let them negotiate for their fair wage separately by supply and demand.

    Hope this isn't too far off topic, but what I really think needs to happen is that there should be incentives for people to become math and science teachers. Specifically, let prospective math and science students pay off government loans with years of teaching in public school. This brings more opportunities to poorer students by reducing the up front cost of getting such degrees. While likely many may leave, the public school system would benefit greatly. There must be some figure of tuition costs v. years of teaching in public school that would be mutually beneficial and bring more geeks into the classroom.
  • Re:First post! (Score:5, Insightful)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @05:55PM (#23659839)
    You're modded Funny, but that's worryingly accurate. Today's kids like being told they're number one, and if they get dragged down for poor marks, they'll just complain to their parents, who'll complain to the schools, who'll start making cutbacks for other similar children until everyone is told they're outstanding when they clearly are not. I can't talk, though - that sentence was huge. Sigh.
  • by thtrgremlin ( 1158085 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @06:12PM (#23660137) Journal
    I don't necessarily get the compulsory education to 18 thing. Get everyone through 8th grade, and if they don't cut it let them go. Work with the kids that want to be there: Want to be there, not necessarily those that get the highest grades. However, off set this with these same kids getting a future opportunity to go back t school when they are older, you know, like after they have learned their lesson that maybe they should have paid better attention in school. Give these misfits an opportunity to do things their way and possibly fall on their ass and learn their lessons. When they want to get their act together, have good opportunities in doing so. The system isn't designed for everybody. Alternatively, kids that aren't so hot in academic courses, let them go to a trade school. Sanitation is a whole lot more recession proof than IT, not to mention there are really great opportunities in those industries for the extremely bright. Construction, demolitions, customer service, automotive repair, and many other fields don't require quite so much general education. IMHO, I think a forcing every student to learn things that are not going to directly influence their economic value in the work force is a major contribution to political and academic apathy. Enough students do not see the value in what they are learning. That doesn't mean the information would be any less valuable IF they learned it, but what is the risk in letting people learn what they want. For those that don't want to learn, save the money to give those same people an opportunity to use it when they get things straight in their head, versus spending it all now when they don't want it. I think all people would benefit, would take greater pride in their education, as well as their chosen career.

    I would really like to know what others think. Btw, I am in the US (as one poster asked people to add)
  • by jonaskoelker ( 922170 ) <`jonaskoelker' `at' `yahoo.com'> on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @06:21PM (#23660307)
    There are problems beyond math.

    The biggest is that the school system is not a great way to learn stuff. I remember (but bear in mind that I'm your average slashdotter, not your average person) at a fairly early age drawing 6x6 grids which taught be that 7 has probability 1/6. I remember my father drawing circles in the sand with dots in the center, explaining the basics of chemistry (and he's not a chemist), and me completely getting it.

    I remember at age 14 (laughably late by slashdot standards) that a person I knew had written a program that played chess. Being a moderately skilled chess player at the time (1390), I thought that was awesomely cool and wanted to do that myself. That got me started writing C (I had dabbled in .bat "scripting" and javascript for ~2 years before that).

    Where am I? Studying CS & Math. Doing the things I chose to study in my own time, not the things I discovered in school.

    Contrast this with school. You're forced into confinement (it wasn't until grade 6 or 7 we were allowed to leave school grounds unsupervised) with a bunch of people that mistreat you horribly and wish you the worst, and another bunch of people who really don't give a rats ass. You're bored out of your mind in the classes that interest you because the material is easy and progress through it is slower than your pace. You're bored in the rest as well, because they don't interest you; the disinterest may arise merely from the fact that they are being forced upon you.

    And I went to a private school... with the things my mother has said about public schools (and she's worked at one), I think I should be glad to not have attended one. On top of that, I hear the danish school system is better than the one in USA.

    More edibles for cognition: John Taylor Gatto (English teacher [johntaylorgatto.com]) says that we he finds companies that don't mind having the kid do some work, the kids do more and better work than the paid staff. My ex-girlfriend (okay, so not completely an average slashdotter :D) has had the same experience (with her being the "kid", age ~15 at the time). This at least tells me that kids have an inherent drive to not waste their time. If that's true, then why are they so unmotivated to do schoolwork?

    Not wanting to be completely off topic, the article says that work needs to be done on making math chic. The question is: who has the credibility and influence with kids to make math cool? For young kids, the parents have some influence, although not much in the "cool" department. For teens, it's mostly the peers (not the kinds who reset the connection). That's a network effects problem you have to solve. Who else? Rock stars? Quaterbacks? Miss teen south carolina (everywhere such as maps)? I mean, having math be the Hot Stuff wouldn't be bad, but it would imply (not just suggest, as the decline in maritime piracy has) the existence of the flying spaghetti monster.

    (for those not picking up logician's humor, everything follows from a contradiction).
  • by Smurf ( 7981 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @06:23PM (#23660343)

    Mensa won't take SATs from later than 1/31/94 as an indication of your IQ. That says something about changing test difficulty...
    It sure does.

    On the other hand, they should be smart enough to know that the SAT was never meant to measure your IQ. In fact, they should be smart enough to know that IQ tests themselves only measure certain abilities, and are not really a good measure of intelligence.

    I normally score around 135 in IQ tests (of course it depends on things like time of the day, quality of sleep on the previous night, BAL, etc), and in my opinion IQ tests and Mensa-like organizations are only good to inflate egos, as they have little relevance to real life.

    By the way, did you know that "mensa" means "fool", "stupid", or "jerk" in Spanish? [wordreference.com] How fitting...
  • by Kopiok ( 898028 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @06:29PM (#23660441)
    It depends on what a relevant degree is, and if that even matters. My AP Calculus teacher was an ex-engineer, and she was fantastic at teaching the subject. Knew what she was talking about and made the class interesting. On the other hand, my ex-engineering Pre-Engineering teacher was a joke and couldn't teach his way out of a paper bag. I believe they were both certified for education. It all depends on who the teacher is, not their credentials (though those certainly help).
  • by pongo000 ( 97357 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @06:33PM (#23660497)
    As an engineer today however, I have zero need for knowing trig simplification identities, calculus proofs, and the like beyond a high conceptual level, but I have far more need and usage of logical and discrete math fields, programming concepts, vector operations, statistical methods, and other "math" topics that are still completely absent from any high-school math curricula that I've seen.

    And I'm afraid that you are, indeed, a victim. You see, the reason why you learn geometric proofs and calculus proofs is to assist with developing problem-solving skills that require an individual to reason a problem from start to finish, much like real life. It scares me that you claim, as an engineer, that all you need to know are the rote mechanics of math (and yes, that is what you describe: number crunching as opposed to critical problem analysis).

    Unfortunately, at least in the US, proofs of any type are becoming rare to non-existent in many curricula. I see the direct result of this every day I'm in school and a student stares at me with a blank look on his/her face when I ask him/her to analyze and determine the best course of action for solving for some quantity X given Y and Z.

    You didn't mention what type of engineer you are. Computer/software/hardware, perhaps? Then yes, I'd agree that programming logic, vector operations, and the like are probably a valuable intellectual commodity. But I know many engineers who work day in and day out designing things, and this takes more than a simplistic knowledge of how to perform statistical computations.

  • by Timothy Brownawell ( 627747 ) <tbrownaw@prjek.net> on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @06:34PM (#23660527) Homepage Journal
    Because "inappropriate" and "illegal" are always the same thing...
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @06:58PM (#23660887)
    One part of the problem is that society (at least in the US) wants/expects more and more kids to finish high school and go on to 4 year universities. Decades ago only a smaller percentage finished high school and an even smaller percentage went on to college. So generally speaking you had a "smarter" population taking these tests.

    Today it's not just the top 20%-30% of students taking geometry. It's not just the top 10% going on to college. This fact brings with it certain undeniable circumstances. The major one is a "dumber" average high school student and a "dumber" average university student. It also means to keep society happy schools have to bend over backwards to help everyone "achieve".

    The first sad fact is many kids don't have the genetic predisposition and/or the proper environment to "achieve". All of us fall into a bell curve when it comes to "smarts". You can't just wish that away or force kids to learn.

    The second sad fact is that pushing kids to "achieve" is not working. I for one support bring vocational programs back into high schools and vectoring the lower "achieving" kids into vocational tracks by their sophomore year. And stop the insanity of pressuring kids to go to 4 year universities. The majority should be going to 2 year vocational associates programs (assuming they don't get the vocational training they need in high school).

    There are plenty of good paying vocational-level jobs out there. Ones like electrician, plumber, welder, and HVAC repair are skilled vocations that pay quite well and will NOT get offshored ever! Even many/most programming jobs really just need a vocational level of training. I don't know of any programmer at an insurance company or bank that needs to worry about automaton theory, compilers, etc.

    We need less "achievers" and more people that can earn a survival living.
  • by Coryoth ( 254751 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @07:00PM (#23660909) Homepage Journal

    The newer example questions seemed more rationalized, they test whether you know the theory or formula needed to solve the question without throwing you a curve ball.
    More specifically, they test whether you know the formula. That is, they test whether you have memorized the appropriate recipe. They don't test whether you know mathematics, they test whether you know facts about mathematics. The earlier questions require you to actually put together a multi-step process to get to a result rather than hand-holding you through it. They also tend to require you to actually lay out the line of reasoning you had to use. That actually requires some mathematics -- actually using and mentally manipulating abstract objects in a logical fashion; constructing lines of reasoning yourself to solve problems rather than just using fixed recipes. I'm not saying the early exams are perfect, but they do have a very distinct requirement that the later ones do not -- they require you to actually think and reason. The later tests are akin to history tests that are nothing but questions like "In what year did Columbus sail to the Americas"; they only require you to be able to regurgitate facts. Now such history exams exist, but they suck too. A real history exam should test your understand of meaning of events (both contextually at the time, and for us today), not just raw facts about events. Likewise a real maths exam should ask for more than just regurgitation of facts about mathematics.
  • by Solandri ( 704621 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @07:05PM (#23660993)

    I don't think teachers are being paid enough and they are certainly not valued enough by the community. Once upon a time, the best and brightest minds went into the teaching profession; it had respect and was highly valued. Now, it's whoever wants to become one, winner by default. The best and brightest need to be attracted back. Why would somebody who has the ability to earn more than four times the national average wage go into a job that earns less than the average wage?
    Not only do teachers not get paid enough to attract and retain the good ones, but teachers unions and the fear of lawsuits make firing the awful ones nearly impossible.
    Another consequences of the "not paid enough" line of reasoning is that if we did raise teacher pay, we'd have to fire most of the current teachers and hire new ones. The teachers unions get in trouble with this double-edged sword since ultimately their goal is to increase pay for the current crop of teachers, the ones the pay increases are supposed to filter out by attracting more capable teachers.
  • Re:tools (Score:3, Insightful)

    by professionalfurryele ( 877225 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @07:14PM (#23661137)
    Calculators are good, if you can already do the sum you want to do in your head.

    I know that 1234+2345 is ball park 3500. If I grab my calculator and get something that is about 3500 I'm happy. The point of doing stuff without a calculator is so that you don't depend on it. It is way to easy to make a mistake using a calculator, and if you cant at least estimate the right answer then you have no way of knowing if you operated the calculator correctly.

    This skill becomes even more important in physics later on, when you want to neglect terms but cant work out their exact contribution without solving the very problem you want to neglect them from.

    A student should be able to ball park the square root of 10 in their head, or work out the sine of 0.1 radians, or estimate what the sum of some set of numbers is in their head because they can simplify the problem to the point that they know they have the right answer.

    Then you use a calculator to get it precisely.
  • by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @07:15PM (#23661147)
    Well... I don't know how is been changing the maths difficulty in México, but just a few days ago a school mate told me that his little brother in junior high(about 14 years old) was asking him if he knew integrals... we thought this was kinna crazy, its hard enough for kids to deal with trigonometry, imagine him dealing with integrals... although im sure they will be more prepared for high school lvls

    ok
  • the learning ramp (Score:2, Insightful)

    by bugs2squash ( 1132591 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @07:18PM (#23661193)
    So these are exams for 16 year olds; what is a 16 year old supposed to do with this education ?

    I was educated in the UK, and I left school at 16 to start an apprenticeship - I'm not sure that there are many of those left.

    If I had stayed at school I would have done "A" levels - the (at the time) horribly hard exams designed to stop people from going to university.

    I'm not kidding, the public wanted value for the money they spent on university education and A levels were a way to screen out those that might struggle to make it. In some ways they help make a "4 year degree" only take 3 years to obtain in the UK.

    If I had done the A levels and not gone to university I would have been considered an academic oddball, who really did not fit into the scheme well.

    So there were two streams of people doing exams; the university-bound and the apprenticeship-bound and the exams were tailored to those needs.

    Needs must have changed...

    1) UK and other nations want to encourage further education, not put a barrier in the way

    2) Many of the traditional forms of employment for 16 yr olds have gone, 16 years is a waypoint in a normal schooling to 18 now.

    3) Universities have welcomed "nontraditional" academic backgrounds for years, and indication to me that the old way of doing exams was not considered optimal.

    I think it's inappropriate to expect the exams to stay the same when their context has changed.
  • by vidarh ( 309115 ) <vidar@hokstad.com> on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @07:20PM (#23661215) Homepage Journal
    Nice try. In the UK at least the various ethnic groups have been jockeying for position as the "worst" group for a long time. A few years ago it was west-indian black boys that did worst. Lots of effort was put in to improve the situation, and then white boys suddenly did worst.

    So "they" had a choice, and blaming minorities is just a way of deflecting from lack of investment in combating the real problems: Poverty - because the common theme when it comes to who underperfom is social situations, not race -, and too little investment in education.

  • by Malekin ( 1079147 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @08:20PM (#23661697)

    We know that schools run by unions and state government (with strings being pulled by the federal government) don't work.

    But why don't they work? I don't know where you're from but around here one of the major reasons private schools get better results than the neighbouring public school is that most of the private schools have the ability to select the students they take. They take the bright kids and these kids do well. The little shits who don't want to learn / ate lead paint for the first six years of their lives end up concentrated in the public schools which can't refuse them.


    All your solution does is increase the education gap between the high-achieving kids and low-achieving kids. I think that goes against the whole point of compulsory education, which is that a rising tide lifts all boats.

  • by hedwards ( 940851 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @08:54PM (#23662109)
    I'm not sure about other areas, but around here we switched to integrated math at the start of the 90s, and you'd be lucky to learn anything like that.

    Rather than algegra, geometry, etc., as discrete courses, they get jumbled together and reintroduced each year through 3 years. The problem is that there's never enough of it at any given time to actually stick, so you get a lot of students who are going through the motions.

    On top of that you get a lot of group work, which basically ends with the one or two students that actually get the course material providing answers to the entire group.

    In an atmosphere like that, where the basics aren't really ever taught, I'm not really sure that most students could cope with anything particularly challenging. And that's not even bothering with the switch from more more theory and analysis to more focus on useless proofs.

    Proofs can be valuable, but only when the students are being taught to understand the reason why certain corollaries, postulates and theorems have been put forth. Mindlessly regurgitating them without an understanding of the implications isn't particularly worthwhile.
  • by billcopc ( 196330 ) <vrillco@yahoo.com> on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @09:28PM (#23662443) Homepage
    I used to think that way, I briefly experimented with teaching, early in my career. What I realized is there's no amount of wisdom that's going to un-fuck the educational system. The pay sucks, the students mostly hate you (because _they_ suck), and the whole system is not designed to improve, but merely to survive financially.

    I wasn't exactly in the public sector, but it was one of the cheaper and thus more popular private vocational colleges. My already modest expectations were far beyond what this enterprise was offering, which is probably why all the grads wound up either in brainless government jobs (lucky them), or call centers.

    The day we rid schools of the financial burden, is the day they will start churning out smarter grads.
  • by cvd6262 ( 180823 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @09:52PM (#23662663)
    Many people in the US equate the college degree with getting a job. They take the "right to work" and backtrack to "right to school after high school" because you need college training to get a good job. The New York State Teachers Union newspaper recently featured a picture of a rally with a sign reading, "Keep SUNY [the state university system] open to ALL!"

    Huh? Since when did university become a right rather than a privilege one earned? Oh, that happened a few years after we decided that everyone had to finish high school and made high school a college prep program.
  • by kestasjk ( 933987 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @09:55PM (#23662685) Homepage

    We've noticed this 'dumbing down' (thanks Idiocracy) for a while now at Uni.
    Right, evolutionary pressures have become so relaxed that students can become noticeably less capable within a single generation..

    Some people take Idiocracy way, way, too seriously.
    When civilization has to concern itself with what might happen in the next few hundred thousand years, when it has been shown that stupidity is actually favored (despite modern hazards like cars and common day-to-day requirements for math, etc), and that it will be favored for hundreds of thousands of years into the future, only then can we think of this as a potential future problem.

    Until that time it's just a nice way to feel smug and superior, and I think that may be all this article is.
    Everyone likes to hear that standards have dropped and that much more was expected of themselves, but the report compares different syllabuses and exams that are taken at different ages.

    This report is comparing individual exam questions even when the syllabus has been changed. As it says in the article "The content became broader and shallower"; a wider range of maths is probably a good thing.
    Also aside from all the politically motivated bashing and calls for a "cultural revolution" they sneak this past people:

    Ucas figures show the number of people who took up places on full time maths degrees has gone up by 9.3% on last year.
    So more people are taking up maths than ever, a wider range of maths are being covered, and more emphasis is placed on calculator use and having a wide variety of skills than prioritizing for fast mental arithmetic and specialization in a few areas.
    What a disgrace! Down with Brown!
  • by RockModeNick ( 617483 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @10:35PM (#23663027)
    While I agree with the sentiment, I don't like the word broken. Broken implies they aren't doing what they're intended to, but I don't think thats the case. They're generating the needed numbers of Walmart clerks and other low wage workers, which is success if preparing students for their most likely future occupations is the goal.
  • by Brian Gordon ( 987471 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @11:14PM (#23663343)
    I looked at the sample questions... Is it a bad sign that I don't even understand the old ones but the 90s ones and beyond were elementary-school level? The first 70s problem was written in such vague language I feel sorry for all the students who found that on their homework. What is it even asking, it seems like 2 unrelated questions?
  • Bludge? (Score:3, Insightful)

    by sjbe ( 173966 ) on Wednesday June 04, 2008 @11:59PM (#23663619)

    Anyone who thinks teaching is a bludge, doesn't know anything about teaching.
    I know plenty about teaching but can you teach me what the heck a bludge is? Is that some sort of mythical fairy creature? Or something you pound someone else with? Have you been reading too much Harry Potter?
  • by jlarocco ( 851450 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @01:11AM (#23664077) Homepage

    My favorite idea for "fixing" schools comes from Milton Friedman's book "Capitalism and Freedom". The basic idea is that the government would subsidize education and set some minimum requirements, while the actual schooling would be done by competeing private companies. Parents (or students) could choose which school the kids went to and, if they wanted, could add money on top of the subsidy.

    It would solve the quality problem because schools would be competing with other schools. Nobody wants to send their kids to a bad school, so the schools would get better or they'd go out of business. It would also fix the teacher salary problem because better teachers would go to the better schools where they could make more money (hint: that would make them all try harder to be better teachers).

    Before anybody yells about poor people getting screwed, look at the current system. Right now poor neighborhoods tend to have worse schools, and the parents in those neighborhoods have no choice but to send their kids to those schools. Under this plan there would always be the option of sending the kids to a better school across town if the nearby school got too bad.

  • by zooblethorpe ( 686757 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @02:36AM (#23664517)

    My favorite idea for "fixing" schools comes from Milton Friedman's book "Capitalism and Freedom". The basic idea is that the government would subsidize education and set some minimum requirements, while the actual schooling would be done by competeing private companies.

    Let me start off by owning up to my bias -- actually, twofold. First, my wife is a middle school teacher, and I have volunteered in many different ways at her school as both elective teacher and simple extra pair of hands. Second, I have found very little in Milton Friedman's writings that I can wholeheartedly agree with. The man seemed to think that private enterprise was a panacea for all of mankind's various ills. He somehow seemed to miss the problem that the underlying profit motive is often at cross-purposes with many of the not-really-business areas he advocated for privatization.

    To extend this and dig into the meat of your post, let's look at your postulation. Schools are, ostensibly, there to provide a public service. There is some real debate at certain levels in education circles about how much that public service really has to do with teaching, and how much has to do with daycare. No, I'm not just being cynical -- a large part of why schooling in the US plays out the way it does is because, historically, mandatory schooling for certain age groups was instrumental in allowing for the 9-5 working day for both men and women, which became very important during WWII.

    So let's say we assume that schools are there to provide the public service of actually teaching kids, with daycare as a nice side-effect. Fine.

    Now let's look at the theoretical private company under Friedman's model that would step in to fill this sudden demand for private education. It would ostensibly be a for-profit corporation, given Friedman's leanings, which means a number of things. For starters, the corporation's management is under a legal obligation to ensure that the company makes as much profit as possible -- by deliberately taking in more money than it costs to do business. This is diametrically opposed to how not-for-profit corporations (i.e. most private schools that I'm aware of) operate -- by deliberately spending all funds alloted in the budget for that year in order to ensure that the services provided are the best possible.

    With those *very* different directives, a few moments' thought should be enough to show that any for-profit entity operating in the field of public services is going to provide the least possible service at the highest possible rates. We've seen that time and again, in country after country, in sector after sector. Medical services in the US? Check. Water utilities in the UK? Check. Power companies in the US? Check. Major ISPs in Australia, Canada, the US? Mobile communications services just about anywhere? Check.

    Fobbing such services off onto the private sector produces other problems as well, as corporations are by their very definition protected by legal limits on their liability. Given the intimate roles that teachers play as in loco parentis, it is important on many different levels that parents have a serious say in what happens at schools -- which is where PTAs come in. I could well be wrong, but I strongly suspect that no for-profit company would really allow a PTA to have much authority over what goes on.

    Part of the problem in the Friedman model is the simple issue of motivation. Why would companies suddenly spring up to take over the role of schools? Private schools that exist at present are there in large part because of an organic need in the community, combined with the presence of people with the motivation to be teachers. The Friedman pipe dream instead seems to be based on the profit motive, which is, as noted above, largely incompatible with public services. His model is also flawed in ignoring the very real geographical constraints of schools -- even assuming real market-style competition

  • by AK Marc ( 707885 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @02:38AM (#23664525)
    the majority of people teaching mathematics aren't experts.

    Um, So? Why should a teacher master differential equations to teach algebra? I'd rather have a good teacher that knows enough math, than a great mathmetician that can't teach. When you require degrees, you restrict more than you enable. My high school physics teacher had a biology degree (and wasn't the biology teacher, but did teach chemistry) the French teacher had an economics degree. The economics teacher had a masters in political science, but no high school diploma or bachelors from college. Oh, and the political science teacher had a degree in education, not political science. Amd they were all good at what they taught.

    Throw in the fact that mathematics is one of those subjects where a student can be permanently set back by just one bad teacher and you have a decent part of the problem.

    Which is why you need a person at the front of the class that connects, and their knowledge of the material is secondary. I know from personal experience tutoring, that I've actually tutored someone successfully in a subject I had no knowledge of. I talked them through, asked them questions, and they were able to learn what they needed with direction, but not someone just giving them answers. Math teachers eed to be teachers first, and mathmaticians low on the list, at least until up until the last coule years of high school and beyond, where the math gets more complicated.
  • by Opportunist ( 166417 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @03:10AM (#23664715)
    I could see a few problems.

    1. Transport. You just know that "poor" schools will be in poor neighborhoods. Now, poor people don't tend to have the money to drive their kids to school (they most likely have to leave their house before their kids even to get to work somehow), so poor kids would have to either go to those schools or be transported somehow to the "better" ones. How do you plan to solve this problem?

    2. "Money on top" from the parents. What should this money pay for, if there is already a standard set? Additional credit? Better teaching material and/or teachers? No matter what that money pays for, it gives the children whose parents can pay some sort of advantage. How does this not disadvantage the children of poor parents?

    3. Is an extension of 2: If there is a standard set, why should anyone have to add something on top of it? There are only two possible systems, either the standard is so low that this is necessary (which basically means again that you have "rich" and "poor" schools, because no poor person could afford topping off the governmental funding, thus having to resort to cheap (and bad) schools), or the standards are adequate which in turn raises the question what the money should pay for.

    Basically not a bad idea, but you just know how it will turn out: Good schools will require you to fork over extra money, so they can hire better teachers and get better equipment, which no poor person can afford, and the dregs will be left over for the poor kids. That won't change a thing.
  • by jimicus ( 737525 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @04:18AM (#23665115)

    (ohh.. and just for kicks.. 90% of the worst students are pakestani.. while they make up about 3-4% of Oslo in total..trying to teach them anything is basically a crash-course in becoming a racist)
    It's racist when you discriminate against someone for no reason other than their race.

    It's racist when you massage the numbers to make it look like 90% of the worst students are Pakistani.

    However, if that genuinely is the case then IMO it's not racist at all. There may be underlying reasons for it that are racist in origin, but if you refuse to acknowledge the problem you're never going to find those underlying reasons.
  • by dk.r*nger ( 460754 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @06:46AM (#23665813)

    But hey, I'm open to persuasion, provided the argument made is solid enough.

    I've tired to answer some key points, but it's nowhere as elaborate as your post..

    [Milton Friedman] seemed to think that private enterprise was a panacea for all of mankind's various ills. He somehow seemed to miss the problem that the underlying profit motive is often at cross-purposes with many of the not-really-business areas he advocated for privatization.

    As I understand his theories, they were actually misunderstood by the politicians implementing them as a panacea to all thier ills.
    The trick is to align the profit motive with the actual task at hand. When private companies are paid to run buses in Copenhagen, they are (as I understand it) required to run certain routes at certain frequencies. They are not required to run a service that customers will want to use. Thus, bus service is plentyful, but sucks, and most people will rather bike 15 km in the rain than set foot in a bus.
    Similarly, if you subsidise a school according to grades (e.g. you're only paid for >B average students), there's a motivation to neglect the ones that take too much effort to pull above B, or to pressure teachers to over-grade. If you subsidise per student-attendance-day, well, then you create a motive to be a great day-care center.

    Medical services in the US? Check. Water utilities in the UK? Check. Power companies in the US? Check. Major ISPs in Australia, Canada, the US? Mobile communications services just about anywhere? Check.

    These are all very high barrier-to-entry industries. A private school can be six kids around a kitchen-table and their parents taking turns as teachers, so while your reservations hold (mostly - most private telecommunications businesses are orders of magnitude more customer-aligned than in their government-past) true for the mentioned businesses, they don't for schools.

    Part of the problem in the Friedman model is the simple issue of motivation. Why would companies suddenly spring up to take over the role of schools?

    Because they can operate the same service at a lower cost, which means money in the pocket.
    The more money a business pockets (or sinks in inefficient operations), the more likely it is that a more efficient competitor will appear.
    The idea it to create true competition, and true competition means that a loser will lose something real, and the winner will win something real. In a public pseudo-competition, the fight is only for prestige, in private it's for actual money, and people tend to be a bit more rigorous with their money that with their prestige.
    ("MY school has a superior athletics program" - "Oh yeah, MY school has a better library" - "Oh look, our salaries are exactly the same" - "How about that, let's play golf")

    Schools already compete like this. Neighbourhood housing values are already influenced by the quality of local schools; as land values decline, so too does school funding (in most states).

    Way to sustains a negative spiral. In a private system, parents, not conjunctures, decides funding.
    If you're living in a neighbourhood where the land value declines - if the school is good, you'll keep your kids there, and the school will keep it's funding. If it's struggling, you might even make a donation with the money you saved from property taxes. Now there's a cheap neighbourhood with a good school => more kids => more money.

    ... I completely fail to see what benefits could be gained by using private companies as opposed to public institutions to run schools. In fact, private companies appear to inject significant risk into the equation, and remove responsibility.

    Competition. Real competition. To win, you must continuously improve yourself. Significant innovation and progress is risky, and is generally awarded.
    Responsibility and accountability comes when irresponsibility means losing your job tomorrow, not in four years, and then only if someone will run against you.
  • by Jason Levine ( 196982 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @09:42AM (#23667265) Homepage
    That "teachers don't work much" sentiment irritates me too. I'm not a teacher, but my wife was. I say "was" because she's currently a stay at home mom. Her pay was never that great and when our second child was on the way we crunched the numbers: Her salary minus extended day care for our older son minus daycare for our second child would have left her with $3,000 per year. Yes, only three grand per year! And that's not taking out gas costs or any other expenses she would incur. For the hours she was working, she literally could make more money flipping burgers at McDonald's than teaching.

    And she would have gotten a lot less stress too. I can't count how often she had to stay late to help a student (sometimes only to have that student not show up) or how many times she had to deal with an irate parent. ("What do you mean my kid didn't get an A? I want my kid to get an A! It's your fault my kid didn't get an A.") She was in a private school and many of the parents seemed to think that, because they paid for school admission, they owned her and were entitled to have their kids on the honor roll. Yes, being on the honor roll was thought of as automatic by parents, not something students earned through hard work and good grades.

    She got out just in time too. Apparently, a couple of teachers (good ones, mind you) have been let go because that same group of parents decided to organize to "get rid of" teachers they had a beef with. My wife, on a visit back to the school, overheard some parents discussing which teacher to go after next. When teachers face working conditions like you described, lousy pay, students who don't want to learn, and parents who could care less so long as the teacher gives their kids A's, of course the good teachers will wind up leaving. I'm really fearful about the kind of education that my kids will get. I can only hope that they either wind up with new teachers (who have not yet been beaten down by the system) or are lucky enough to get those rare "diamond" teachers who seem to stay great no matter what pressure the system heaps on them.
  • by cecille ( 583022 ) on Thursday June 05, 2008 @01:00PM (#23670199)
    This is actually something that universities often complain about. I live in Canada, so the majority of the money a university receives is from the government. However, tuition fees are becoming an increasingly significant portion of the funding, and tuition fees are on the rise. Students begin to view the degree as an end product rather than as a learning process. In essence, they are paying for a degree from a reputable university, learning be damned. This brings with it a number of difficult to solve problems namely:
    1) grade inflation - the customer is always right, and students are education customers, so to keep them pleased we give them all A's and B's. There is documented evidence that the average grades given out in university classes is on the rise. If you have time and you care to read it, there's a book called "Ivory Tower Blues" that gives far more detail than a slashdot post ever could. (Be forewarned - for a book written by two academics I was expecting something a little better written and researched, and a little less biased towards their own university, but it's a start I guess. )
    2)Students working and spending less time on school work. This would probably be less problematic in high school, but might affect poorer students who want to attend a higher-cost school.
    3)The reputation of a school being tied to price. No jokes, one of the arguments the president of our university gave for raising tuition fees was that students, particularly out-of-province or international students without direct knowledge of our university funding system, would assume we were a wal-mart university if we kept costs low. We had to raise them to look like we were the same caliber as other universities in the area. On the flip side of that, another university in our area had a extremely well-regarded engineering program, so they just raised the fees for engineering students because they could. Every year the fees went up, but with very little to show for it. It becomes this insane cycle of raising fees to look good, then raising fees because you look good.

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