Environmental Cost of Hybrids' Battery Recycling? 520
LostMyBeaver writes "I have been considering the purchase of an electric or hybrid vehicle for some time. The biggest problem I have currently is that both technologies make use of rechargable batteries. The same tree-huggers telling me gasoline is bad are telling me that batteries are bad too. I'm only partially knowledgable in this area, but it appears the battery technologies are generally based at least on lithium ion, nickel metal hydride, lead acid and nickel-cadmium. I was hoping someone on Slashdot would be knowledgable enough to explain the environmental cost of recycling these batteries. If I understand correctly, after these chemicals are 'spent' so the cells no longer maintain a charge, they are not useful for producing new batteries. I can only imagine that the most common method of recycling the cells is to store the toxic chemicals of the batteries in barrels and refilling the cells with new chemicals. This sounds like an environmental disaster to me. Is there someone here that can help me sleep better at night by explaining what really happens?"
Re:They can be recycled (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, both Nickel and Lithium can be separated electrolytically, recovered as pure metals, and then recycled as new batteries.
I'm more worried about the Lithium batteries recycling themselves explosively while I'm driving the vehicle!
Re:Google Much? (Score:5, Interesting)
Fuel Cell is the only way to go... (Score:2, Interesting)
No batteries. Makes Hydrogen and Oxygen in tanks for itself from water and electricity plugin then just like a gas gauge can let it set or drive til the tanks are dry before plugging in again.
Now a small nuclear reactor for each township and life becomes cheap again OTHERWISE its the ELECTRIC COMPANIES' TURN to overcharge us instead of the OIL COMPANIES.
Public Transportation (Score:3, Interesting)
If you are truly worried about your impact on the environment, use public transportation.
Re:Battery life cycle (Score:1, Interesting)
Actually Lead Acid batteries are HEAVILY recycled, in fact they are one of the easiest and most often recycled items out there.
My dad worked for a car battery company... ;)
Sides, you get like $10 for the old battery if you bring it in for a new one. That lead is valuable.
Re:Google Much? (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a 2003 Civic hybrid, and right on cue to the warranty on the battery expiring (80k) it's performance dropped fairly significantly.
It's still completely functional, but depletes it's charge *much* faster. My mileage has dropped from about 45-48 to 42-45 as well.
The conspiracy nut in me says they programmed it that way ;-)
in any event it's what they said it would do (80k) so i can't be terribly upset. And it's fully functional and still getting better mileage than most other cars out there.
At this rate then i wonder if it would be worth it to remove the batteries and shed all that weight? Sure the hybrid drive system helps efficiency but when it loses its effectiveness, can that gain in efficiency still overcome the loss from the added weight? That's what i'd like to know.
-Taylor
Ok, metals are poisonous... (Score:2, Interesting)
I heard PGE is finding other uses for them (Score:3, Interesting)
It might have been on Slashdot, but I heard that Pacific Gas and Electric is taking batteries that are no longer usable in hybrid cars and applying them as backups in office buildings. The batteries might have had physical damage or some other condition that prevents their use in cars but allows their use in fixed locations.
Also, not all the batteries are NiMH. I think the Chevy Volt will have a Lithium Ion battery, the kind that has caused problems in laptops. I've heard they are working on reliability and safety issues with the batteries.
Re:$200 bounty (Score:4, Interesting)
30 minutes? You have obviously never seen professional thieves at work. On topping a hill on 620 in Dallas once, I saw a van pull over in front of a car parked on the edge of the highway, as it backed up to the car the rear double doors opened and a cherry picker was extended on rails out of the back of it while several people leaped out of it carrying air tools and cutting torches etc and proceeded to strip the car. The van pulled away before I got to the bottom of the hill and the car was sitting on the pavement minus wheels, doors, hood, engine etc. This was maybe 30 seconds of time spent. No doubt they can work out a routine for hybrids. Of course for the small timer, catalytic converters seem to be one of the items of choice atm.
Re:$200 bounty (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you should be more worried about anti-hybrid nujobs who will completely destroy your car [edmunds.com] because they think you are "too smug" [priusdrivers.com].
good question (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it's positive that you're trying to see the whole picture instead of just the point emissions. How the materials will be recycled is a good start.
You should probably also try to find out the total manufacturing footprint, including how the materials are produced and how far they travel. For instance, if materials are mined in Canada, manufactured in China, assembled in Japan and sold in America, that constitutes a larger total footprint over the life of the vehicle than vehicles manufactured from more local materials.
If it's an electric car, how is electricity produced in your area? Hydro, coal, natural gas, renewable? What is the environmental impact of the electricity you're using? If hydro, what impact to river ecosystems? If coal, what of emissions? Don't forget to take transmission losses into account.
If a hybrid, you should look at what kind of driving you do. Hybrids have a clear advantage in stop-and-go traffic, but lose advantage at high speed over significant time. If most of your driving is on unobstructed freeway, you might consider a small conventional car instead.
What happens when the batteries are starting to go, but aren't yet at the point where you need to replace them? It seems like the engine would have to run longer, or start and stop more often, which probably affects gas mileage. So, over time, the in-town mileage of your hybrid will probably drop. How much I can't say, it depends on the design.
Good luck. The results might make interesting reading.
Re:all batteries can hurt you (Score:5, Interesting)
Well said Bruce, I remeber back in 1977 when I was at tech school for the local Telco. There was a 50v power supply for exchanges back then, running from a huge battery, capable of 5,000 amps.
A lecturer was showing us some details of a connector strip when he got his gold wedding ring across the battery and earth. It was VAPOURISED off his finger!
I will never forget the smell!
I never wore a watch or ring again at work after that.
Re:Car's Battery (Score:2, Interesting)
The standard 12-volt battery is not used to start the car: the main hybrid battery does that. It is used to drive one of the two electric motors, which through the planetary gear system, causes the internal combustion engine (ICE) to turn over, at which point fuel is injected and the ICE starts.
The 12-volt battery is solely for the accessories. Notably, you can use it to jump start another vehicle, but you cannot use another vehicle's 12-volt battery to jump start a Prius.
Re:$200 bounty (Score:2, Interesting)
so....i doubt that in particular is the reason...
also, if a battery is going to pass through the rear seat (wouldnt such force shatter it upon hitting the dividing seat/wall?) and into the interior, i think you're fucked anyway.
although, there is nowhere dangerous to go since it's essentially above the (and behind a bit) wheel...
"The 65 mpg Ford [non-hybrid] the U.S. Can't Have" (Score:3, Interesting)
Interesting article on businessweek.com. Ford is selling 65mpg cars in Europe, but not the US.
"Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."
According to the article, the reason diesel fuel is more expensive in the US: "Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?ch [businessweek.com]...
Re:"Battery" is plural (Score:5, Interesting)
It actually goes back to the early days of the artillery. A batterie (french, from battre = to fight) consists of two trains of two cannons each together with their teams of loaders, cannoniers and aimers.
Re:Car's Battery (Score:3, Interesting)
On a side note, the "normal 12V car battery" can kill you just as easily. If not easier (700+A vs 6.5A). Volts don't kill you, amps do.
If someone drops it on your head perhaps. Seriously though. A 12V battery is pretty safe. That old saying "It's the amps that kill you" is always taken the wrong way. Current flowing is what does the work. That's what the saying means. Except for in cases where your current source is very small (a few milliamps for example) the rating of the battery doesn't make any difference. A 12V battery is pretty much totally safe with respect to shocking you. Any injury they cause is secondary, either from the weight (drop on foot), burns from shorting/improper hookup of jumper cables, Acid splashing from battery overheat/bursting due to improper hookup of jumper cables/charger. Whatever. a 300v battery, even if only rated for a couple hundred mA will give you a painful, and potentially lethal shock. a 12v battery, even one rated for many thousand amps (or billion amps for that matter), will not have the voltage to push any significant current through you. as others have mentioned, it's ohm's law. V=IR Making the assumption that your body's resistance is constant (not strictly correct, but close enough in this instance), and voltage is a known 12V you can calculate the current easily. The battery's amperage rating doesn't ever come into play.
Re:Car's Battery (Score:3, Interesting)
"IIRC there have already been fatalities from salvage people cutting into the wrong stuff."
That (like torch-cutting shock absorbers at the fat end) weeds out the incompetent.
The industry is pretty sophisticated and hybrids go quickly at auctions (which is why I haven't scored a wreck to play with).
Re:Car's Battery (Score:3, Interesting)
At least in the 2004 model, you're wrong - the 12 volt most definitely DOES start the car.
Leave the car off with the lights on too long, the 12 volt battery dies, and you WILL be calling AAA to get a jump start. The only trick is finding the terminals to plug in the jumper.
Yes, I have done it.