Environmental Cost of Hybrids' Battery Recycling? 520
LostMyBeaver writes "I have been considering the purchase of an electric or hybrid vehicle for some time. The biggest problem I have currently is that both technologies make use of rechargable batteries. The same tree-huggers telling me gasoline is bad are telling me that batteries are bad too. I'm only partially knowledgable in this area, but it appears the battery technologies are generally based at least on lithium ion, nickel metal hydride, lead acid and nickel-cadmium. I was hoping someone on Slashdot would be knowledgable enough to explain the environmental cost of recycling these batteries. If I understand correctly, after these chemicals are 'spent' so the cells no longer maintain a charge, they are not useful for producing new batteries. I can only imagine that the most common method of recycling the cells is to store the toxic chemicals of the batteries in barrels and refilling the cells with new chemicals. This sounds like an environmental disaster to me. Is there someone here that can help me sleep better at night by explaining what really happens?"
Google Much? (Score:5, Informative)
Stolen from Hybridcars.com:
How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?
The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the carmaker.
Battery toxicity is a concern, although today's hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.
There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
Re:$200 bounty (Score:5, Funny)
Great. So now we'll have to worry about people tearing open the backs of our cars to remove our _perfectly good, multi-thousand-dollar_ battery packs to sell them for $200 to feed their addictions (heroin, alcohol, food, gasoline, etc.).
Re:$200 bounty (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
i think you mean catalytic converters (Score:3, Insightful)
I did.
mufflers are pretty much worthless
They're worth more than that. It takes less energy and money to recycle the metal than it does to mine ore and refine it to make new metal.
Falcon
Re:mufflers (Score:5, Insightful)
Are you thinking of catalytic converts? Mufflers generally are not made from things other than stainless steel, steel and aluminum. CCs, on the other hand, have expensive internals.
Re:$200 bounty (Score:5, Funny)
You forgot 8" floppy disks... Can't... Have... Enough....
Re:$200 bounty (Score:5, Insightful)
Thankfully, those batteries are heavy, and located in hard to reach places. The batteries in the latest Prius weigh 45 Kgs and are located in the trunk of the car, partially underneath the back seat.
I don't see anyone spending a good 30 minutes tearing open the Prius with powertools, only to run around with a 100+lb weight. At that point, they might as well steal the entire car.
Re:$200 bounty (Score:4, Interesting)
30 minutes? You have obviously never seen professional thieves at work. On topping a hill on 620 in Dallas once, I saw a van pull over in front of a car parked on the edge of the highway, as it backed up to the car the rear double doors opened and a cherry picker was extended on rails out of the back of it while several people leaped out of it carrying air tools and cutting torches etc and proceeded to strip the car. The van pulled away before I got to the bottom of the hill and the car was sitting on the pavement minus wheels, doors, hood, engine etc. This was maybe 30 seconds of time spent. No doubt they can work out a routine for hybrids. Of course for the small timer, catalytic converters seem to be one of the items of choice atm.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Hard to reach as in it needs more effort than to pry open the hood, disconnect the terminals and lift out the battery. Sometimes, it's good when things are hard. I'd like a $200 item in my car to be fairly difficult to get to if I don't provide keys and a proper garage.
Re:$200 bounty (Score:4, Informative)
Your typical car battery is designed to be a short-lived, end-user-replaceable unit.
A hybrid's batteries are different beasties altogether; replacing them is more like replacing your car's engine.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
I think it's more like replacing your car's fuel tank.
In terms of expense, it's definitely more like replacing the engine. Think ~$10,000 if you ever need to do it.
Of course, it's hard to see why you ever would. A hybrid is not like a battery electric; it uses the same sort of battery technology that's specced to last (typically) 10,000 deep charge-discharge cycles. But you're unlikely to ever see more than 50% discharge on a hybrid's battery pack (probably not even that), so you'll get a lot more cycles
Car's Battery (Score:5, Informative)
As a Prius owner, let me assuage your concerns. There are two batteries in the Prius: the main hybrid battery that provides the power to move the car and a standard 12-volt battery that is used for starting the vehicle, running the radio, and all of the other things you would expect from a normal car battery.
The former has no user-serviceable parts and can kill you if you're careless. The harder to access in this case the better. The latter is easily accessible from the trunk and can be used with standard jumper cables to start someone else's car or similar functions.
If the main hybrid battery needs replacement, you sure as hell don't want to do it yourself. That thing is 330 volts, 6.5 amps, and a hell of lot bigger/heavier than a standard car battery.
Re:Car's Battery (Score:5, Funny)
... you sure as hell don't want to do it yourself. That thing is 330 volts, 6.5 amps, and a hell of lot bigger/heavier than a standard car battery.
pussy
Re:Car's Battery (Score:4, Informative)
330V at 6.5Amps? Are you sure.
Doing the simplest of EE calcs that gives you 2145W of power. Or 2.1kW, that doesn't seem like enough to push a car anywhere.
Also assuming that the battery holds a standard 100Watt-Hours per KG thats 4.5kW hours.
So the battery could push the car (at 2mph) for 2 hours before needing a recharge.
I think 65-100A delivering 21.5kW-33kW at least would be required to push the car around at a decent speed, for few minutes before the engine kicks in to keep the battery topped up. These are not Plug in electric vehicles, they are hybrids.
Re:Car's Battery (Score:4, Informative)
I think 65-100A delivering 21.5kW-33kW at least would be required to push the car around at a decent speed
Probably not, no. At 21.5kW a good electric motor typically delivers something like 100Nm (70 lbs.ft) at 4000rpm (or nearly-proportionally higher torque at lower speeds), which is more than enough to accelerate a reasonable weight vehicle quite quickly.
I agree that 6.5A@330V wouldn't be enough, but I don't think as much as 65 would be necessary. Looking at the specs for the Prius, its motor produces 450Nm at 400RPM, which probably equates to approximately 10kW. The _motor_ (not the battery pack) is described as max 6.5A, which suggests there's a voltage step-up somewhere in the control system.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
"IIRC there have already been fatalities from salvage people cutting into the wrong stuff."
That (like torch-cutting shock absorbers at the fat end) weeds out the incompetent.
The industry is pretty sophisticated and hybrids go quickly at auctions (which is why I haven't scored a wreck to play with).
all batteries can hurt you (Score:4, Informative)
Check out the Prius Emergency Response Guide [toyota.com] for some information on some pieces that can hurt you.
Bruce
Re:all batteries can hurt you (Score:5, Interesting)
Well said Bruce, I remeber back in 1977 when I was at tech school for the local Telco. There was a 50v power supply for exchanges back then, running from a huge battery, capable of 5,000 amps.
A lecturer was showing us some details of a connector strip when he got his gold wedding ring across the battery and earth. It was VAPOURISED off his finger!
I will never forget the smell!
I never wore a watch or ring again at work after that.
Re:all batteries can hurt you (Score:4, Funny)
A lecturer was showing us some details of a connector strip when he got his gold wedding ring across the battery and earth. It was VAPOURISED off his finger!
I will never forget the smell!
I love the smell of gold vapor in the morning. It smells like ... world domination.
- Sauron
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
People tend to dismiss low voltage, while respecting high voltage. But it's not the voltage that kills you, it's the amperage. The only reason you can ignore low voltage is that under about 50 volts, electricity won't break your skin with the presence of salt water. (sweat can sometimes suffice, or some other electrolyte [wikipedia.org]) And while an auto spark coil will often generate 50,000 volts or more, there's not enough amperage to do any significant damage. (you won't forget the feeling, however!)
A car battery throw
Re:all batteries can hurt you (Score:4, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Professionals don't wear rings because those 12-volt terminals are connected to wires, and in various places along the circuit the two connections are brought quite close to each other.
This is serious stuff, be careful not to misinform lest others hurt themselves.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
On a side note, the "normal 12V car battery" can kill you just as easily. If not easier (700+A vs 6.5A). Volts don't kill you, amps do.
If someone drops it on your head perhaps. Seriously though. A 12V battery is pretty safe. That old saying "It's the amps that kill you" is always taken the wrong way. Current flowing is what does the work. That's what the saying means. Except for in cases where your current source is very small (a few milliamps for example) the rating of the battery doesn't make any difference. A 12V battery is pretty much totally safe with respect to shocking you. Any injury they cause is secondary, either from the
Re:Car's Battery (Score:5, Funny)
I = V/R
If your resistance remains the same, 330V is gonna provide a heckuva lot more amps to run through you.
V/I = Futile
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
At least in the 2004 model, you're wrong - the 12 volt most definitely DOES start the car.
Leave the car off with the lights on too long, the 12 volt battery dies, and you WILL be calling AAA to get a jump start. The only trick is finding the terminals to plug in the jumper.
Yes, I have done it.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Whereas a 5.7 litre V8 engine can be lifted out with one hand and just clips into place?
Wow. This is amazing. (Score:3, Insightful)
I've never seen someone excited about their vehicle being hard to service before.
That's something that pissed me off about my 2000 car. I used to change oil and filters and repair my own vehicles. But when I wanted to change oil in the new car, this was in 2001, the repair manual for the car said specialized tools were needed to remove the plug and filter. I could see paying $10 for the filter remover but when I checked on the price of this new one it was a lot more than that. So was the tool for the plu
Re:$200 bounty (Score:4, Informative)
Most of the vehicles have a single battery *pack*. Within that pack are somewhere around two hundred individual NiMH cells* which are each about the size of a D-cell battery. So you could break open the pack and steal the individual batteries, but that would probably entail more effort than just hauling the pack around (the pack contains things like the battery cooling and battery control computer. And you thought batteries were simple...
* Sometimes the cells are bundled together like in RC vehicle packs, so you can't actually get at the individual cells without even more effort.
Re:"Battery" is plural (Score:4, Informative)
Re:"Battery" is plural (Score:5, Interesting)
It actually goes back to the early days of the artillery. A batterie (french, from battre = to fight) consists of two trains of two cannons each together with their teams of loaders, cannoniers and aimers.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It's collective -- it refers to a group of things like "flock" or "bunch". But it's not plural -- batteries is plural.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Ownership (Score:2)
Seems to me that if you're replacing the batteries you're probably going to have the vehicle with them. They're pretty damn weighty, and due to hazards may require a professional for removal/installation. If theft becomes an issue, then they could make it a requirement that the vehicle be brought in with the batteries, in which case they'd have to steal the whole car (and if they can manage that, they'd do so regardless of batteries).
Re:Ownership (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Ownership (Score:5, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I think you should be more worried about anti-hybrid nujobs who will completely destroy your car [edmunds.com] because they think you are "too smug" [priusdrivers.com].
Re: (Score:3)
But with your thoughts in mind the first thing I plan to do when I get the car is remove all Hybrid badging.
Re: (Score:2)
According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
Maybe Toyota ought to get into the consumer AA NiMH battery market. I've got a few stinkers that stopped holding their charge after only about a dozen cycles of light duty operation. (Which is quite a bit less than the "100s of times" touted on the package.)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Try Sanyo Eneloop.
They have slightly less capacity than the top of the line regular NiMH (2000mAh vs 2700mAh), but they can output upwards of 3A with no problem, and are Low Self Discharge cells. They can be recharged >500X, have no memory effect to speak of, and only lose 15% of the charge PER YEAR at 70F.
With Hybrid LSD cells such as these, there is really no excuse to use alkaline batteries any more.
P.S. You can get a pack at Costco for $30 that includes the charger, 2xAAA, 8xAA batteries, plus 2xC an
Re:Google Much? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Google Much? (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Google Much? (Score:5, Informative)
There are a ton of variables that determine battery life, but to say that it relies mostly on your charger is not true when even the most basic charger these days uses peak detection and thermal monitoring to stop charging.
NiMH batteries will _always_ get warm when charging at a decent rate (and most cells like to be charged at a rate somewhere between C/2 and C to get reliable peak detection), because charging them is only 70-80% efficient. The rest goes into heat. If you continue pumping current into them after full, then yes, they heat up quickly.
NiCd batteries only heat up significantly when you continue to charge them after they are full, or you charge them at very high currents.
The #1 killer of typical batteries is letting them sit around dead or pushing them into reverse voltage by draining a pack too far. They like to be stored with at least some charge in them, but too often they end up sitting around for a year or two in between uses and too often they end up sitting dead which kills them. Lithium based cells are so bad that if you drain them completely, you can not revive them, so they typically have a small circuit on them which monitors cell voltage and disables the cell when too low.
There is a ton of information on proper care of batteries including charging here at BatteryUniversity.com [batteryuniversity.com] including information on what types of behaviour kills certain types of cells the fastest.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
I've got a few stinkers that stopped holding their charge after only about a dozen cycles of light duty operation.
Of course. Battery manufacturers bank on people buying replacement batteries, and since so many people misplace rechargeables long before they go bad or simply do not realize they are supposed to recharge hundreds of times, there is no incentive to produce a better product (except in the precision/high-tech market, but that's a different story). Toyota would likely do the same if they entered the AA market.
People would certainly take notice if their cars only went 1000 miles before they crapped out.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Toyota also treats the batteries gently, keeping the charge between 40-80% except in emergencies (like out of gas) where it can drain them to 0%.
Consumer batteries only hold about 60% of the charge put into them, so to hit 100% they take roughly 167% of their capacity. Toyota's batter
Re:Google Much? (Score:4, Insightful)
Ah, but that's why you have to read what they actually said. It states quite clearly:
Your "stinkers" would be considered a manufacturing defect, so even if they replace 5,000,000 crappy batteries every year, their statement would still technically be correct.
Sneaky bastards ....
Re:Google Much? (Score:5, Interesting)
Sounds good... (Score:2)
Which ones do you recommend, and what MPG do they get?
And can they run on vegetable oil?
Re: (Score:2)
http://money.aol.com/news/articles/_a/bbdp/ford-wont-sell-65-mpg-fiesta-in-us/164929 [aol.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Which ones do you recommend, and what MPG do they get?
Old PSA Group ones, so that's Peugeot, Citroen, Renault and some Volvos from about 1995 or older.
And can they run on vegetable oil?
If they have the Bosch fuel pump, yes. CAV or Lucas, not for very long.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
I'm an overweight monk, you insensitive clod!
Re:Sounds good... (Score:5, Funny)
And fat friars are made of delicious, delicious monkflesh.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I have a 2003 Civic hybrid, and right on cue to the warranty on the battery expiring (80k) it's performance dropped fairly significantly.
It's still completely functional, but depletes it's charge *much* faster. My mileage has dropped from about 45-48 to 42-45 as well.
The conspiracy nut in me says they programmed it that way ;-)
in any event it's what they said it would do (80k) so i can't be terribly upset. And it's fully functional and still getting better mileage than most other cars out there.
At this rate then i wonder if it would be worth it to remove the batteries and shed all that weight? Sure the hybrid drive system helps efficiency but when it loses its effectiveness, can that gain in efficiency still overcome the loss from the added weight? That's what i'd like to know.
-Taylor
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
yes, life is dangerous also. so let's just forget about risk analysis.
i think i'll just pop some oxy-contin, muscle relaxants, and sleep pills, wash it all down with 151, then drive down to TJ to have unprotected sex with some hookers. and if i'm still alive the next day, maybe i'll shoot some coke and then ride a motorcycle on the freeway without a helmet.
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:3, Funny)
And they won't. All Toyota have been doing is advising prius owners to use their car as a small gasoline-only vehicle. The devil's in the wording.
FUD.
Do you think all Prius owners would remain quiet about this? If Prius batteries were failing after 8 years, wouldn't more people jump on that news?
Hogwash (Score:5, Informative)
I've got a first-gen Prius, bought in 2000. While I've had to replace the 12V standard car batter, the main hybrid battery's fine. As there are no Priuses substantially older than mine, I'd say that I'm a good example, as are the friends who have the exact same model let alone the later models.
They can be recycled (Score:2, Informative)
http://www.rbrc.org/consumer/ [rbrc.org]
http://www.ehso.com/ehshome/batteries.php [ehso.com]
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
Yes, both Nickel and Lithium can be separated electrolytically, recovered as pure metals, and then recycled as new batteries.
I'm more worried about the Lithium batteries recycling themselves explosively while I'm driving the vehicle!
Toyota Claims It Can Recycle The Whole Battery (Score:5, Informative)
Toyota claims that [hybridcars.com]
Re: (Score:2, Informative)
And those batteries are probably worth more than that $200 in raw materials, and for new batteries, they need the raw materials anyway.
Radioactive Batteries (Score:5, Funny)
The DOOZY I heard the other day from a mechanic, who I believe is afraid his job is disappearing, is that batteries in the Prius are RADIOACTIVE!
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Because going hybrid is going to make all cars instantaneous 100% reliable and breakdown free.
Re:Radioactive Batteries (Score:4, Insightful)
His mechanic doesn't want to re-tool and re-skill. The former is about money, the latter about either laziness or exhaustion.
Re:Radioactive Batteries (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Radioactive Batteries (Score:5, Funny)
Clearly you know nothing... (Score:5, Funny)
It's the muffler bearings that need periodic replacement, and the *blinker" fluid that needs to be replenished from time to time.
Both products can be found here;
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&products_id=10 [kalecoauto.com]
http://kalecoauto.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=6 [kalecoauto.com]
Re: (Score:2)
Great. I wish I had known about this before being charged $160 for new brake grease!
Build a wall (Score:3, Funny)
Re: (Score:2, Funny)
And when the wall is done, we can throw the rest over when no one is looking!
It really depends on many factors (Score:5, Informative)
Caveat - I used to work for Tek Cominco, and have smelted alloys, been a power engineer, and so on.
First, you have to think of the entire life cycle of both production, shipping, usage, and disposal.
Production: depending on the battery used (and there are multiple types being looked at), it may be produced from minerals from say Ontario or BC - in which case it was processed using a combination of methods, some of which use hydroelectric power (green). Acids are used in all metal production pretty much, so you pushing a giant truck down the road involves more acid than the batteries for a plug-in-hybrid which quite frankly has less mass. Smelting frequently uses coal, of course, so it depends on the source and composition of the coal - high-sulfur high-pollution like in China or low-sulfur low-pollution like in Canada. It is NEVER no pollution.
Shipping - again, the parts and batteries will be shipped on a boat using dirty bunker fuel (even in clean ports like LA they only use clean fuel when near the port, a small infinitesimal fraction of fuel usage).
Operation - if you rarely use a car and it just sits there, then your negative pollution cost of operation for batteries is higher - but your pollution of roadways from diesel/gas would be higher still - if you use it a lot it depends on the power source - if hydro, wind, solar and especially if time-shifted so it charges when power demand is low it has lower impact. If you live in a place where electricity comes from coal it's dirtier.
Recycling - if it is - and it will, these are expensive batteries - recycled, the cost of mining and production of the batteries is vastly reduced (anywhere from half to one-twentieth the pollution of getting it again). This is why we recycle scrap from cars and cans, it's cheaper than mining the minerals again.
In general, all things being equal, with typical usage, you will ALWAYS create less pollution with a plug-in-hybrid than with a non-hybrid.
ALWAYS.
Don't confuse battery warranty life with operational battery life, by the way.
Interesting. (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm for a portfolio of changes. Meaning, not one silver bullet (nuclear, wind, solar, geo, tidal, fat people on Stair Masters, etc...), but for the use of all - smartly of course. Just because a technology doesn't make sense now doesn't mean it won't in the future.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
It also depends on where you are and the relative costs and pollution impacts of the fuels you use.
Just look at the different types of biofuels - if we grow switchgrass or algae in areas with sufficient water they can make sense, just as cane sugar biofuel can make sense if we don't burn the crop waste in the fields and use sustainable practices, but in an arid place with high fertilizer usage it makes no sense.
In most cases, a plug-in-hybrid makes sense as at least ONE of the vehicles in a family, preferab
mod this dude up (Score:2)
really...I wish I had the points
Battery life cycle (Score:5, Informative)
Not only do these batteries last a long time, due to careful maintenance by the car's computer and optimization of charge/discharge patterns, they are fully recyclable and less poisonous when compared to lead batteries.
Most people believe the lifecycle of a battery dies when the car is totaled. Not true. Batteries are being salvaged and sold on ebay to continue their services past the totaling of the car. There has also been progress of mixing n matching individual modules within battery packs, to further extend the usefulness of each part of the battery. Hybrid car batteries are made up of many modules. When the battery fails, its only one or two modules that fail, and can be replaced with other modules that have the same charge/discharge characteristics.
These dead modules can then be sent to Toyota to be recycled, the nickel extracted and re-used in new batteries.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
In fact, current estimates [batterycouncil.org] are that 97% of lead used in lead-acid batteries is recycled. 60-80 percent of a new lead-acid battery that you buy is recycled from an older battery. Don't believe the Greenpeace BS - their data is 20 years old, before many laws were passed regulating lead-acid battery recycling.
Disclaimer - I'm a heavy [volt914.com] user [blogspot.com] of lead-acid batteries.
Fuel Cell is the only way to go... (Score:2, Interesting)
No batteries. Makes Hydrogen and Oxygen in tanks for itself from water and electricity plugin then just like a gas gauge can let it set or drive til the tanks are dry before plugging in again.
Now a small nuclear reactor for each township and life becomes cheap again OTHERWISE its the ELECTRIC COMPANIES' TURN to overcharge us instead of the OIL COMPANIES.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Be careful of that. It's important not to confuse point emission with total emissions. Hydrogen has to be made by some process and then transported some distance, and the total emission footprint depends on how this is accomplished.
It takes electricity to create hydrogen, and (I just looked this up) just under 50% of our electricity comes from coal, and only about 7% from hydroelectric, so in most cases you're trading one type of pollution for another. It might be a good trade, because of economies of
I tried t ask about that recently (Score:2)
At the last Maker Faire in San Mateo I asked one of the guys at the hybrid car conversion booth and got some really flippant snide remarks. Not very helpful at all belaying any of my concerns.
Public Transportation (Score:3, Interesting)
If you are truly worried about your impact on the environment, use public transportation.
Summary (Score:2)
"I don't understand battery recycling, are Liberals killing the world with hybrid batteries?"
No.
Buy a bicycle (Score:4, Insightful)
Erm (Score:2)
On a sidenote, is the OP saying that we shouldn't recycle batteries, or that batteries are wrong? I'm a little fuzzy here...
How Tesla's Lithium Batteries are Recycled (Score:5, Informative)
Others have already given a good idea of how NiMH batteries are recycled (and how they are relatively benign if not), here is how Tesla is planning on recycling Lithium batteries used in their electric cars when it comes time to replace them:
Mythbusters Part 3: Recycling our Non-Toxic Battery Packs [teslamotors.com]
While NiMH batteries are what's used in just about all hybrid vehicles on the road today, the industry is slowly moving towards as the advantages of Lithium based batteries (higher power to weight ratio, higher power density) outweighs their drawbacks (high cost), and higher energy density is required to make plug-in and pure electric vehicles usable.
I heard PGE is finding other uses for them (Score:3, Interesting)
It might have been on Slashdot, but I heard that Pacific Gas and Electric is taking batteries that are no longer usable in hybrid cars and applying them as backups in office buildings. The batteries might have had physical damage or some other condition that prevents their use in cars but allows their use in fixed locations.
Also, not all the batteries are NiMH. I think the Chevy Volt will have a Lithium Ion battery, the kind that has caused problems in laptops. I've heard they are working on reliability and safety issues with the batteries.
To recycle one hybrid's battery (Score:3, Funny)
All in all the procedure has negative carbon footprint due to the removal of somewhere around 8 or 10 heavy carbon producing kittens from the environment. I would even suggest repeating this process every 10,000 miles in a daily driver.
good question (Score:3, Interesting)
I think it's positive that you're trying to see the whole picture instead of just the point emissions. How the materials will be recycled is a good start.
You should probably also try to find out the total manufacturing footprint, including how the materials are produced and how far they travel. For instance, if materials are mined in Canada, manufactured in China, assembled in Japan and sold in America, that constitutes a larger total footprint over the life of the vehicle than vehicles manufactured from more local materials.
If it's an electric car, how is electricity produced in your area? Hydro, coal, natural gas, renewable? What is the environmental impact of the electricity you're using? If hydro, what impact to river ecosystems? If coal, what of emissions? Don't forget to take transmission losses into account.
If a hybrid, you should look at what kind of driving you do. Hybrids have a clear advantage in stop-and-go traffic, but lose advantage at high speed over significant time. If most of your driving is on unobstructed freeway, you might consider a small conventional car instead.
What happens when the batteries are starting to go, but aren't yet at the point where you need to replace them? It seems like the engine would have to run longer, or start and stop more often, which probably affects gas mileage. So, over time, the in-town mileage of your hybrid will probably drop. How much I can't say, it depends on the design.
Good luck. The results might make interesting reading.
Solution (Score:4, Funny)
I've found a perfect solution: make the car use tree-huggers as fuel ;-)
What about the polution from the electricity? (Score:3, Insightful)
"The 65 mpg Ford [non-hybrid] the U.S. Can't Have" (Score:3, Interesting)
Interesting article on businessweek.com. Ford is selling 65mpg cars in Europe, but not the US.
"Americans see hybrids as the darling," says Global Insight auto analyst Philip Gott, "and diesel as old-tech."
According to the article, the reason diesel fuel is more expensive in the US: "Taxes aimed at commercial trucks mean diesel costs anywhere from 40 cents to $1 more per gallon than gasoline."
http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_37/b4099060491065.htm?ch [businessweek.com]...
Whatever happened to the true economy car? (Score:5, Insightful)
Even after revising the 1985-2007 mpg estimates to make them comparable to the new 2008 mpg estimates, the 1989 Honda CRX-HF is rated at 41 city and 50 highway mpg.
http://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/noframes/5263.shtml [fueleconomy.gov]
After 20 years of technological innovation, and four years of sky-rocketing fuel costs, shouldn't a new car model get at least 41/50 mpg before that car is considered to be ecologically friendly? Yet greencar.com features the 2008 Nissan Rouge (22 city/27 highway mpg) as a "Top 2008 Fuel Economy Faves." The 2008 Nissan Rouge also has a sticker price of $19,250.
http://www.greencar.com/features/fuel-economy/ [greencar.com]
Seems to me that true economy cars been pulled from the market, and replaces with the new hybrids. Major car manufacturers want us to think that 30+ mpg is something miraculous, and requires an expensive, heavy, complicated, hard-to-maintain, hybrid.
In my opinion there is more to ecological friendliness than just mpg (although the present line-up fails at even that). Hybrids have huge batteries, and disposing of those batteries is never ecologically friendly. Then there is the ecological impact of manufacturing and shipping these huge, heavy, vehicles. Furthermore, recent road tests carried out by Auto Express show that hybrids often have worse CO2 emissions than standard autos.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/environment/article3958376.ece [timesonline.co.uk]
To have a real impact on fuel consumption, and emissions, new vehicles need to be affordable. Hybrids are about the most expensive vehicles on the market. How can hybrids have a positive effect of the environment, if practically nobody can afford the beasts? Even if you can afford the steep sticker price, what about the cost of maintenance? Hybrids have two engines, and use a complicated system to charge their huge batteries. I hate to even think about the cost of maintenance and repair.
It used to be common that most fuel efficient cars also had the lowest sticker price, and lowest maintenance costs. The cars where simply smaller, lighter, and required more manual operations. With smaller, cheaper, parts, and a less complicated design, the cars were cheaper to maintain. When I bought my 1992 Ford Festiva, the 30/37 mpg rating was the least of my criteria, I was also concerned with sticker price, and maintenance costs.
Why can't we do as well now, as we did 16 to 35 years ago?
1973 Honda Civic rated 35/40 mpg
1986 VW Golf Diesel rated 31/40 mpg *
1989 Geo Metro rated 43/51 mpg
1989 Honda CRX-HF rated 41/50 mpg
1992 Ford Festiva rated 30/37 mpg
* I got over 50mpg driving from Florida to New Jersey, while running the air conditioner.
Related:
57 mpg? That's so 20 years ago
Want to drive a cheap car that gets eye-popping mileage? In 1987 you could - and it wasn't even a hybrid.
http://money.cnn.com/2007/12/17/autos/honda_civic_hf/index.htm [cnn.com]
Efficiency? Think Racing Cars, Not Hybridso
A renowned racing car designer has said that car manufacturers should be looking at making cars lighter to improve efficiency, rather than adding complex drive trains.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/7387432.stm [bbc.co.uk]
Hot Cars Best Gas Milage
Welcome to hi-mpg.org. We are automotive enthusiasts and travel aficionados who also love the environment. We appreciate both form and function, all while striving to leave future generations a legacy of clean air, scenic grandeur and a continuum of natural resources. In addition: the freedom to drive.
http://hi-mpg.org/best-cars-with-high-gas-mileage.phtml [hi-mpg.org]
Dear Slashdot (Score:3, Funny)
I was thinking of buying a gas or diesel powered automobile, but I heard that they have batteries that contain lead and sulfuric acid. They have to be replaced frequently over the lifetime of a car, and if the batteries are improperly cared for, they can explode. This sounds like an environmental disaster to me. Can anyone explain the entire lifecycle of car batteries before I make the leap and purchase a car?
What's with all the anti-hybrid sentiment on Slashdot lately? I followed the comments to this article [slashdot.org] last Thursday, and there are a surprising number of people who go out of their way to make up reasons not to get better gas mileage. Hybrids are some of the geekiest and most technologically advanced cars on the road.
I'm all for questioning the environmental impact of manufacturing, but this topic really reads like a troll. Next week, are we going to see "I heard that Priuses kill blind people..."?
Re: (Score:2)
Yes, we need more carbon dioxide to protect us from global freezing.
Re: (Score:2)
Some people say listing a bunch of opinions, stated as facts, without any specifics or citing any authorities on the subject are weasels.
Re:Manufacturing batteries (Score:4, Insightful)
Your right.
I will go back to believing that Corporations have my best interest in mind(more so then myself) and just accept everything they tell me as gospel.
All sarcasm aside, even if carbon dioxide accumulation were NOT harmful, our dependence on foreign petroleum IS. The only reason 100% recycling doesn't work is because some people are too fucking lazy to do their part. Thus, Toyota putting a $200 bounty on their batteries is a great idea. Give the lazy bastards a REASON to help.
Many states and municipalities did precisely the same thing with beverage bottles/cans. Try finding a Coke bottle in the streets of Los Angeles. You can't, because that 5 cent refund makes it worthwhile to pick the damn thing up. Maybe not to you, but certainly to someone.
Re: (Score:2)
China comes to mind, where these are probably manufactured anyway, which gives you a solution to a plurality of issues: the manufacturer takes responsibility and on top of that you can ease your mind by blaming them for polluting us.
CC.
Bad study. (Score:5, Informative)
You do realize that the source study (http://cnwmr.com/nss-folder/automotiveenergy/)has been thoroughly debunked in the same Slashdot discussion that you linked to? If you troll, at least put some effort into it.
Re: (Score:2)
Congratulations. You quoted a Slashdot story filled with cautions about how questionable or reliable the study was, and how they never disclosed how they arrived at the "magic numbers" used for computing the basis for the "fact" you quoted.
If you're going to troll, you should at least google for some stories that don't expose the bias you're trying to hide.
Re: (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:DIESEL (Score:4, Insightful)