The Stigma of a Tech Support Background 613
An anonymous reader writes "Since the last semester of college I've been working as a first line tech support agent. At first it was just a way to earn some extra money; then it became a way to scrape by until I could find myself a real job. By now (almost two years in), it's beginning to feel like a curse. The problem I'm having is that no matter how many jobs I apply for, and no matter how well-written my applications are, I can't seem to get further than the first interview. For some reason it seems a lot of employers will completely overlook my degree in computer engineering, the fact that I can show them several personal projects that I've worked on, and that I can show them that I clearly possess the skills they are looking for. I've had several employers tell me to my face, and in rejection letters, that my 'professional background' isn't what they're looking for even when they've clearly stated that they're looking for recent graduates. In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years. I'm wondering if others have experienced similar problems and if there are any good ways to get employers to realize that my experience from tech support is actually a good thing and not a sign of incompetence."
It's on you man. (Score:1, Insightful)
Given a person with no experience and a degree, and a person with some 'support' experience and a degree, a company is going to normally higher the person with experience.
Perhaps there are other reasons that you are not mentioning or that you don't know of? Do you smell?
"In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years."
I'll just simply say bullshit.
This story smells. You have worked in a call center for the past 2 years? Was 2 years ago your last semester of college?
Maybe in your case you have already stumbled into the Peter Principle?
Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:5, Insightful)
In fact, a few have even told me that they decided against hiring me simply because I've worked in tech support at a call center for the last two years.
Are you a good tech? If so, why haven't you been promoted? Or at least assigned to head tech or second level support?
No offense, but when I did the same thing as you I was in "Team Leader" training in 3 months. All call centers I have worked at (only 2) and most that I have heard of, have enough turn over that by 2 years, a "Computer Engineer" should be moving up the ranks.
I think part of the Peter Principle talks about how lower level or entry level jobs are usually done well by those that wouldn't do well in management or more difficult jobs. Also, perhaps you are not a good tech, but a great developer. This all might be working against you, to no real fault of your own.
Perhaps take a part time job as a developer... advertise that you are willing to work part-time for no benefits and that you know some modern languages; that you are willing to work the night shift doing testing; that you will work for $int_cheap_labor per hour - something to get your foot in the door and working wth professionals.
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs. There must be a little more to it. Try to advance in your current postion, or broaden your *professional work* experience (not personal projects).
Maybe its your interviewing skills (Score:5, Insightful)
Maybe you need a dry run with an interview expert to evaluate/grade your performance.
Its very possible you are committing one or more "interview success killers" and don't even know it. It may have nothing to do with your resume.
The best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
That seems really odd... (Score:5, Insightful)
I am nearing the point in my career where I will have to start *hiring* coders, and one of the first things I am going to look for is a background in bridging the gap between "software systems" and "people"
If the positions you are applying to don't seem to get that then I can only offer 2 thoughts:
1. They don't understand software development that well, so you should probably not work for them.
2. *Explain* what I just said above in your interview.
Re:The best solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Bingo! Remember, you are not required to list every single thing on your resume. For most people an empty two years would be a suspicious hole, but for a recent graduate they wouldn't expect constant working in addition to your school. If they ask you about it, tell them the truth: you worked tech support to make money for school but you didn't put it on your resume because you don't feel it's relevant to your experience for this job.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:3, Insightful)
Fact of the matter is, this guy settled. Imagine someone who went to school and got a masters in some sort of engineering/drafting for bridges, but instead started his first job drawing caricatures at at a carnival. Imagine a PhD is psychology who decided out of school to "Watch my neighbors son on weeknights". Think about the PhD in some sort of super brain/heart/whatever surgery who took a job as a school nurse right out of school.
Sure. MAYBE these people CAN do what they went to school for, but taking such jobs right out of the gate tells me and others that you are incapable.
The real reasons aren't the stated reasons (Score:4, Insightful)
Work on interview technique.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
I agree. I wonder if he just meant that he wasn't promoted into management but he was now higher than 1st level. That question is a very important one.
The other thing I would add is try smaller companies. I don't know who he is interviewing with (Fortune 500s, 1000s, 5000, companies of 100+, etc) but he may get a better shot at a small company where he can demonstrate his skills or they may be willing to give him a 90 day trial period.
An entrepreneur who has had to push past obstacles and may be more willing to give you a shot. Somewhere you may be able to talk to someone other than a middle level HR guy you may be able to argue your case more.
How to get hired in Tech (Score:5, Insightful)
Personally, I wouldn't hire you either - you have no experience.
"How can I get experience if no one will hire me?"
Well, you have an /excellent/ choice of career paths in computers, because you don't need a benevolent company to hire you in order to get experience. In fact, in my own hiring, it's the experience that happens /outside/ of a "job" that makes the most difference. If you really want to succeed, do something. If you are trying to be a programmer, write that project you've been wanting to do; don't wait. Once you have it written, that goes on your resume. I wrote a /HORRIBLE/ stupid graphing calculator for Windows CE and started selling it, and that is absolutely what got me hired as a coder. Don't have the werewithal to make a whole project? Contribute to existing open-source packages, and reap the same benefits.
Or maybe you're looking to become a network engineer instead of a programmer. Set up your own virtual cluster of machines running under KVM, make it do fun things, show off your ability to create a secure environment, and put it on your resume as experience. Even better, when they ask you about it, you can offer them a copy of the entire setup on a DVD, with all the virtual machines...
Either one of those scenarios would get you hired by me, regardless of the rest of your resume -- not only does it show definitively you can do what you want to do... far more important is the fact that it demonstrates you love doing this stuff; you love it enough to do it on your own. That is key.
You're lucky - you've got a field where the cost of doing it "in your garage" is absolutely minimal.
Call center experience /is/ good experience, in my personal opinion. I had early jobs at call centers. I still value that experience as a developer, because it helps me remember that people are idiots who will mess things up if you give them the slightest opportunity. This is critical to keep in mind when developing anything. But it's no substitute for actual experience in programming. I think you can sell your experience in call centers to someone who will hire you to do other things, but you'd best have some additional selling points, because while that experience has some value, it's not a hiring-value.
Yer Doin' it Wrong (Score:2, Insightful)
Find a tech support in the company that you want to work for, THEN when the engineering position in that company opens up, apply for it.
That way, you already have your foot in the door, plus you will already be familiar with the business processes in place, so that gives you an advantage over outsiders trying to get the job.
Who do you know? (Score:2, Insightful)
In your case, your resume and your degree are not going to get you a job, especially if it has been 2 years. If you're more than 6 months out of school, most places consider you an "experienced professional". As far as I can tell, the only way to overcome lack of experience fresh out of school if you don't know anybody is to have a 4.0 GPA.
I'm coming up on 6 years since I graduated with a computer engineering degree, and I'm still working as a systems administrator. The closest thing to CpE I see are crazy perl regex's or the odd Java code when an application on one of my servers "suddenly stops working".
100% of the graduates I know that were employed in engineering when they graduated or shortly thereafter had either experience through co-ops/internships, stellar grades and well known to professors, or they knew somebody who was already working where they were hired on.
Re:Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:4, Insightful)
It is possible that he also works for a piss poor company. Some shops will keep him in that position forever if
he lets them. Much easier to do nothing than promote him and have to train someone else who will likely turnover quickly. If he
leaves then they still have to train someone but nothing lost to the company.
A few pointers (Score:3, Insightful)
If you are getting interviews then the problem is not with the resume, but with the interview.
You may want to check with the school you went to if they have anyone that could help you.
Failing that, you may be able to find resources online with key points to remember on an interview.
Also, many companies do tend to think that anyone that is in tech support for 2 years is because they could not do better, so you may want to look for a small company to work for while you can add some other tittle to the resume.
Specially think of a small ISP, or one where they may let you do other projects in addition to tech support.
In general small companies will have you involved with much more than tech support, even if that is what you are hired for. Larger companies tend to be more specialized so if you get hired for position X, it is little harder to move.
Any small company will, but there may not be as much technology beyond support for you to do. With an ISP there is a higher chance of you getting non tech support tasks.. even on the smallest of ISPs.
Two years in tech support (Score:4, Insightful)
1) You smoke. People who work in tech support smoke.
2) Do you drink and / or drug? My experience with TS folks is that they tend to have a higher rate of both than the norm. Do you happen to fit any stereotypes of either of these? I have long hair for example - people assume I'm a pot smoking hippie.
3) You probably spoke negatively of your current employer. This is because TS sucks. However, this is a huge warning sign for employers.
4) You probably think you are above your current job, and it comes out in the interview process. People don't like people who are like this.
If I am totally off the mark, my apologies. If even one of these sound like you, then you may want to think about what you can do about it.
PS> Being a smoker isn't ever going to be the stated reason you didn't get a job. I don't think it can be, officially. Still, it's the same as showing up wearing too much cologne - people take their sense of smell seriously. Smokers generally don't smell good (too much smoke, overcompensating mint, etc) and it does hurt their odds of success. It's not something I would consider in an interview but I've watched it happen to smart people who should have been moving ahead.
This is Not About Technical Qualifications (Score:4, Insightful)
This problem is not about technical qualifications. In fact, you see this sort of thing in food service, sports, journalism (real journalism, not blogs), photography, building construction... you name it.
You are pretty much screwed. You've been had cheap and people's perceptions are so, so hard to change.
Prospective employers only want you for what you have done and aren't interested in anything else.
I recommend that you omit your employment history from your job applications and resumes. Explain that your parent's financed your education and provided your food and housing. You never had to work.
We're not talking about too much time, here.
Re:Maybe its your interviewing skills (Score:2, Insightful)
Either you're lying on your paper application by saying you have skills and experiences that you don't have, or you're just not selling yourself in the interview. Take the above advice and go through some dry run interviews at some kind of career development center. Some colleges offer such services to their alumni, so I'd look into that, if I were you.
two issues (Score:3, Insightful)
There are two solutions:
1. Leave the helpdesk job off your resume. If they ask why the gap, make something up.
2. So you've been working two years in helpdesk without being offered a promotion? Either the company's promotion process is broken or you are. Where I work, everybody starts out at helpdesk, no matter what position they are applying for. Even if it's just for a week or two, you start out answering phones and move up from there. Some people do, some don't, some actually like helpdesk.
I don't (Score:5, Insightful)
I do have a hard time believing that just becuase you work in tech support in a call center, you aren't getting jobs.
I've experienced a similar stigma working with Big Iron: "Oh, you're a mainframe programmer? Well, we don't do much of that anymore, most of our stuff is object-oriented..." Nevermind the fact that I've been doing C++ for more than a decade. I experienced a similar stigma when I got into embedded development. My degree says computer science, not IBM mainframes.
Some people just can't wrap their head around the fact that you aren't tech support. Personally, I would not put anything on my resume that wasn't career related. The fact that you have tech support on your resume probably makes them think that you think it has something to do with the position offered. They don't need to know you worked as a tech support - sure, you might have to put it on the application, but it should stay off the resume.
The next time it happens, you might want to end the conversation like this:
Them: Well, we're interested in hiring an engineer... Not so much tech support...
You: Have you ever worked in fast food? I thought so! I'm not interested in working for a burger flipper, either...
Believe it or not, I've said worse to an interviewer...
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:1, Insightful)
As somebody who has done phone (tech) support before I can tell you that companies (i.e. Management) will rarely promote people who are not incompetent. This isn't only my opinion, as I've heard it from others here on Slashdot as well who worked in similar roles.
The short of it is that highly technical people who are good at their job are too essential to the daily functioning of the business to move into management. They're the ones who get things done, and they're few and far between, whereas managers are a dime a dozen. Most businesses cannot afford to have their staff stop working and start managing.
Re:Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:4, Insightful)
Sure, that's possible. But then how do you explain this supposed "support taint" on his resume? Which I too find hard to believe. During the downturn a few years back, I did that kind of work to make ends meet. I don't recall it hurting my prospects. On the contrary, a customer-facing job gave me a little breadth of experience I'd lacked before.
I think there are other issues here the guy's not acknowledging. Which is often the case when somebody's having trouble finding work.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
It could also mean that the economy is shit and these were the only jobs they could find.
slight of hand (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Sure. MAYBE these people CAN do what they went to school for, but taking such jobs right out of the gate tells me and others that you are incapable.
The sad thing is that a lot of employers also hold this prejudice. Honest people and intelligent people aren't willing to sell themselves with fake resumes, nor can many people who get out of school with massive student loans afford to wait around for an ideal job offer when there are bills to be paid.
I've always found that people often blame the misfortunes of others on personal attributes, and in their hypocrisy they blame their own misfortunes on other people. It's shameful.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:3, Insightful)
It's unfortunate that you would think that taking this kind of job right out of the gate is bad. Really sometimes it's the only option. Call centres especially incoming call centres like tech support pay higher per hour than most places in the city they are located in, and anyone with higher than average computer skills can easily get a job.
For someone who just got out of school and now has a TON of bills that they need to pay and need to pay now, a tech support job can be landed quick and easily and it pays. That also makes it tough to leave when you just got mastercard to stop calling you daily. Promotion for many people is not an option as it takes a certain kind of person to get a management job at a call centre and I don't mean it as a compliment.
I've done the customer service and tech support rounds for a couple years in the call centres and it was well paid torture.
As for the resume, focus on what it was that _you_ actually did for the company and customers and try for a smaller company that might be able to see past the job title
Re:Maybe its your interviewing skills (Score:3, Insightful)
Yes! I've done a little bit of interviewing for technical positions. If you're interviewing with me at all, then your resume was definitely good enough for me to be spending time on you. I don't think your resume is the problem.
When I'm interviewing, it's really important to me that I feel like I can stand being around you for a large percentage of my week. That means you MUST be able to express yourself, have good personal hygiene, and be amazingly intelligent.
You don't have to be my best buddy, and I'm going to be a little careful avoiding irrelevant biases (I have an unreasonable affection for British accents, i.e.). But if I find something about you deeply offensive (did he just PICK HIS NOSE?!) (seriously, a stained white T-shirt?) (what is that FUNKY smell?) then I'm going to be actively looking for reasons to not hire you. You would drive me and my team crazy, and that would impact your and our effectiveness negatively.
Give your people skills a good, hard examination, and work on improving them.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually I think every developer should do a year or two in end user technical support.
All too often there is a disconnect between those that design and code software and the end user.
If this person worked their way though school doing tech support than that is great.
To be fair, though (Score:5, Insightful)
To be fair, though, why should it matter?
1. Most important of all, you can give the guy a test, you know? _If_ he spews the usual stuff that spells "idiot monkey who couldn't even understand that list right" -- like that rebooting solves most problems, and activating FSAA is a fix for graphics problems (hey, rendering glitches are called artefacts too, and FSAA solves rendering artefacts. Genuine piece of "advice" I've heard.) -- then, by all means, don't hire him. But _if_ he happens to know his stuff, why does it matter what job he had before?
Especially because...
2. In that race to scrape the bottom of the proverbial barrel to save costs, since at least the 90's I've seen less qualified people in all sorts of IT and programming jobs. Some places will not only hire a summmarily retrained burger flipper if he asks for less money, they'll _prefer_ one.
So, you know, wtf? They'd hire someone who worked at McDonalds and lied about having taken a "Java for dummies" course, but they won't even listen to someone who's worked in tech suppport? Something seems amiss there.
3. Don't get me wrong. Yes, probably 90% of the L1 tech support guys are just the cheapest monkeys who can use a phone and read a list. Badly. I'm not saying all are smart and competent, or anything equally silly. But I'm saying there is a variation in competence in any job, ya know? The trouble is the other 10% who just happened to need a job and nothing else was available. E.g., if said person was still in college, I don't see that awfully many other jobs who overlap well with that. You're not really going to take a game dev job and pull 80 hour weeks, for example, when you _also_ have to learn at the same time.
Heck, even as job descriptions go, it varies substantially between companies. You can't paint them all with the same brush. E.g., as ISP tech support goes, I've seen mine go recently from abysmal to guys who can actually solve simple problems without going through that canned list. I know, it's the first sign of the Apocalypse ;)
Even getting a promotion isn't necessarily a given, if all you have is two years. A _lot_ of support and generally IT jobs have been offshored in the last years, so in some places you'd be just happy to keep your job for two years. Because everything above you is also getting reduced faster than normal attrition. Plus, there's just plain old statistical flukes. I've worked (as a programmer) for a small company where the tech support guys just had no path to advance any higher, for example. The only job above L1 support were us the programmers, and as statistical flukes happen with small numbers of people, past a point no more programmers were hired, no more managers were needed either to promote some, and nobody quit for some 3 years at a point.
Re:Maybe its your interviewing skills (Score:1, Insightful)
Maybe you need a dry run with an interview expert to evaluate/grade your performance.
Its very possible you are committing one or more "interview success killers" and don't even know it. It may have nothing to do with your resume.
I am thinking the same thing. You may be fouling up the interview process. You indicate that you cannot get past the first one. If your call center background was the real problem here, you probably wouldn't be getting the first interview.
Consider the local state/county job centers. They should have professionals that could critique resumes and hold mock interviews with you. I have been there and done that. It can be very valuable.
Good luck!
Re:Recommended reading (Score:3, Insightful)
In other words, you were hired for a job that you were woefully unqualified for?
Don't focus on the tech support and they won't (Score:2, Insightful)
My experience getting into my field took a little sidepath as well. I am currently working as a designer, but my last job was as a *cringe* firedog. But when I began shopping myself around after graduation I barely mentioned my time there. Honestly it had no bearing on the jobs I was applying for outside the 'yep this guy understands computers' checkbox. The only reason I stayed there as long as I did was that I was very choosy about the kind of company I wanted to work for. What got me the phone calls with offers rather than letters of condolences was my 7 years as a tour guide. Again the job had no bearring on my actual career, but I did develop excellent people skills. These translated remarkably well into the interview.
Frankly my point is unless you have resume experience as long as your arm, companies will only hire people they like. Present yourself in a polite, responsible manner. Treat the interviewer and their personal space with the upmost of respect. And above all do whatever you have to (short of tequila breath) to not be nervous. Confidence is key. Not arrogance, confidence. Practice your answers to the questions you know will be asked. If need be, be a little dismissive of your time in tech support. Explain that while you genuinely enjoyed the opportunity to help people, your ultimate goal was a position similar to the one you're applying for. And remember still to be yourself, turnover rates for employees that are completely different than their interview personas tend to be above the norm.
Okay I made that last part up, but it sure sounds true!
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
What about FOSS and bounty work? (Score:1, Insightful)
The economy *is* shit. So if the OP (I won't say "this guy" and be yet another person assuming that the OP is male) is willing to do "personal projects" and has passable c.s. skills, then why isn't he or she going to Freshmeat or other places and taking up bounties instead of repeatedly going back to places where they already know that they're not wanted?
Whats that old definition of insanity again? doing the same thing over and over but expecting different results?
I think that is is an important question. Around here many of us are talking a hell of a lot about some wonderful future built around FOSS and/or work done from bounty postings and other non-corporate approaches. Well that's all jim dandy in theory but I have yet to see a single programmer over the age of twenty-three that I've ever known actually turn their back on corporate work to actually try to make a living this way.
Me? I got out of IT completely years back and consider most of those who have stayed suckers unless they're making over $50 K a year and working 45 hours a week or less.
Or, put bck the whole Tech support (Score:5, Insightful)
on what you were doing and demonstrate your troubleshooting skills
I don't how it is in the US, but here in Europe no law will force you to list every single jobs that you have worked on. In fact nobody expects you to. Generally you don't give out an exhaustive résumé, instead you put focus on highlight a couple of entries that you think relevant to the job you're applying for.
So a different approach would be to just remove the Tech Support from the begin of the résumé. Focus more on the academic achievement (Titles, Awards, Publications, etc.). Also on all the various opensource/personal project that you have developed or contributed (specially the ones now in production stage), trying to highlight the diversity of tools that you master.
Of course at some point of the interview the question will come what you have been doing all this time between graduation and the present.
The best is to only mention the job then and explain that you haven't considered your current job worthy of getting mentioned on a CV for that peculiar application (so they understand that you *do* indeed work, you just have something better and more interesting to pitch about you).
Maybe mention then too, that people tend to misrepresent what your job consist and tend to focus on it instead of your actual skill, thus you choose to not mention it in the curriculum. You can subsequently jump on the topic on what you think you've done actually cool that people would misrepresent : mention the tech understanding the out-of-the-box hacking/fixing, etc. so the employer gets the point that you were not a "follow the script" drool-drone.
Re:All your knowledge is 2 years out of date (Score:5, Insightful)
That means that you're essentially the same as one of this-year's graduates, except that you'll have had 2 years to forget stuff and won't have been taught the current stuff that this year's grads.
What current stuff? Have data structures changed much in the decade since I graduated? (no) Have databases changed at all? (not appreciably). The only difference is that some stuff is now java and not c++. Whoopty frigging do.
Re:If you think tech support is bad, try having no (Score:3, Insightful)
If you weren't being hired then what DID you do? Well? If you need experience then you need experience not money. Go work on some open source project, volunteer for some non-profit, find some somewhat related company (then try to wiggle yourself into the proper department/make connections), go to local software events to make connections, meet people who may work in the field, work on your own projects to improve your skills and so on. Of course you should have been doing all of this in college or simply been getting internships so it's really your fault for getting out of college without experience. Remember that in life it matter who you know, what people think you know and what you actually know in that order. Don't obsess about the second of those when it's the first that you really should be thinking about.
Don't complain about not being able to find a job if you're doing little more than sitting on your ass all day.
I'd like to also say I agree with the other reply in that if you have no other options then just "stretch the truth." However if you do that then make bloody sure you actually have the skills to back up your claims or you'll just be digging yourself an even bigger hole.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
In that case I'd say drop it from your resume entirely... If you were in school, you don't necessarily need to explain what else you were doing.
Especially if you have some other projects to talk about
Re:Lack of Advancement, Lack of Experience (Score:5, Insightful)
If I had mod points, I'd mod this up as insightful.
The OP is either the unluckiest guy in the world, or is being rejected for very legitimate reasons.
The OP should take a very close look at himself. I would recommend the following:
1) Ask friends or acquaintances -- who are software developers -- to give you a mock interview. After that, have them give you an objective appraisal.
2) Go get certified in something to do with software development. Computer engineering has little overlap with software engineering. Taking a certification is going to give you a clue as to what you are missing. Plus, it will give your resume a (little) boost.
Going from technical support into R&D is a tough move. But you need to get the advice and direction from people in the business that you trust.
Remember, if you want a different result, then do something different. Seek counsel and advice.
Re:Or, put bck the whole Tech support (Score:4, Insightful)
Not if he just graduated. "I was focusing on my studies." End of question. :-)
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah.. Obviously different companies allow more or less movement from a given team but I'll put myself out there as an example of why seeing someone lived on 1st Line Support for 2 years would be a negative.
My first "white-collar" job (Junior summer of U) I was hired as a Front-Line tech support person. It was at an in-house dev firm and I along with 30 others were the start of their phone-support. I never made it to the call pool. During our week of training my abilities as a burgeoning developer brought me to performing more QA/Tuning functions. At some point, when I had free time, I did spend some time on the phone but at what could best be called 3rd level support (I call you.. you can't call me)
1 week training, 2.5 months as dev-support liason, back-to-school for one last year. I don't want to degrade my fellow starting team but those that stayed in 1st level for any length of time were not destined to be developers. Everyone who had more to offer was given more responsibility (at the very least 2nd level.. most better)
Sitting on 1st-Line phone support for two years can demonstrate: Lack of ability, Lack of drive, Lack of work-ethic, Poor communication skills, etc. Maybe you are not any of those things but you certainly haven't shown that to your current employer so why should an interviewer presume anything different?
Just a thought..
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Caeful on that, though - I'm a vet, and while there are lots of 'non bullet catcher' jobs, there are some caveats:
The needs of the service come before EVERYTHING. Oh, you have a contract? Sue them. Good luck. If you are in the Air Force you might be able to get them to kick you out, but in the Marines (yeah, I know, if you wanted to join for the benefits, you wouldn't go there, I know...) they will put you literally anywhere, doing anything. Smart? Great - you get to go intelligence or public affairs. Not brilliant? Postal clerk, admin or cook - god knows where. Navy? Nice bet, nice culture (in my experience, I was Marines who spent a lot of time on ship) but I hope you really like travel.
Finally, consider what you give up - you will be 'on duty' working EVERY DAY for your entire tour. You will be deployed. You will probably be in either the ass end of nowhere, or in a combat zone. Best you can hope for - a podunk base in the US with nothing but strip clubs, pawnshops, tattoo parlors and hookers, watching your fellow human beings act like asshats. No college? Guess what - you will be enlisted. That means you will be the closest thing to a serf you can be in the western world. You might get lucky and have good leadership, or you might have a bunch of ROTC and service academy grads with Napoleon complexes. God save you if you don't have good Staff NCOs - and you might not, especially if these SNCOs find out you just joined 'for the benefits'.
I joined because I actually wanted to serve. After my tour was up, I got the f*ck out as fast as I could, and when my honorable discharge papers came in, I had my uniforms at the goodwill that day.
Oh, and BTW - EVERY enlistment is 8+ years. Read the fine print on your contract - your 'active' time is the 2, 4 or 6 years, but that is just the ACTIVE duty time. The difference up to 8 years is 'inactive reserve'. They can call you up if there's a need and guess what there is right now - big need. And no, they don't just 'need' combat MOS. I knew public affairs people who were stop-lossed, and that was in 1992. Gotta have those 'reporters' and PR folk, y'know. Its critical to the war effort. Seriously, they have a Table of Organization, and if there's a slot, you will be on it, period. They don't care that you were going to college, getting married, or have just had enough. We used to say USMC stands for 'U Signed the Motherf*cking Contract' and it is true. Don't sign it unless you really want it - do yourself and your fellow potential servicemenbers a favor. No one likes serving with someone who isn't really motivated to be there.
Sorry. Rant over. Good luck.
I'm here to help (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, I hate to be mean but you need to know the truth. If you're getting any kind of interview, the problem isn't your resume it's your interview skills. You wouldn't get an interview if they weren't ok with the tech support background.
The resume gets you in the door, the interview skills get you the job.
OK, let's think about this. (Score:4, Insightful)
"First line technical support". Have you ever called first line technical support? The most common impression of FLTS is they can't manage walking and chewing gum at the same time. I know that's unfair because in almost every case FLTS must follow scripts written more with a view of "idiot customers AND idiot tech" than just "idiot customer" rather than "There's a real problem here that needs to be solved".
First step is to get out of first tier support. Or support entirely, which is what you're trying to do.
There are local charitiable organisations that need tech help and can't afford it. Like your food bank, shelter, red cross, hell, even the BBB, NPR, PBS, or Red Cross. Go to them and offer to help with tech issues. They likely don't know squat about tech, but if you are even half way effective, they'll write a glowing recommendation because you bailed them out of trobles they couldn't solve themselves. You help not just yourself, but others that are in dire straits. For nothing else, that's worthy right there.
Example: I wrote a customer master module to be used in accounting for customers, vendors, shippers, anywhere it was needed to tie a company/person/vendor/whathave you with multiple addresses, purchase orders, sales orders, trouble tickets, history (careful to not over normalize so as to update historical records with current info) blah blah blah. End result, I used this exact module over and over and over again for pledge drives, charity auctions, setting port-a-pottys, vending machines, you name it.
I know a gal that started out as first line tech support. Climbed to managing the help desk, from there, went to web master, and is now a director of IT somewhere else. All in four years. And she's good... really good.
It can be done. If someone wants to type cast you, it's because you let them do it and don't show them why they are wrong... or they are simply grossly stupid and unobservant. In the fist case, you've only yourself to blame, in the second, better you don't work there anyway.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:5, Insightful)
"Actually I think every developer should do a year or two in end user technical support.
All too often there is a disconnect between those that design and code software and the end user"
YES! PLEASE.
I work in tech support, and the bane of my life is application developers who think they're God's gift to the Turing machine and yet don't have the first clue as to how their precious little world-saving application is going to 1) share data with other systems, 2) be packaged and deployed and patched on real-world environments, and 3) be tested, debugged and trouble-shooted by the *users*.
Most application developers seem to have the unconscious assumption that *their* program is the only one that exists in the whole wide universe, that *its* data store is the only data worth considering, and that they, the developers, are the only people who are ever going to need to understand how their program works and test it. Because *of course* it's never going to have any bugs after it's shipped, that's quite unthinkable. And if there are, why, you'll be happy to erase all your data and reinstall from scratch, including Random OS Support Library Foobar version 42.3.1415, precisely, which will never conflict with any other installed version. Because you're just 'a user', and all you get is a black box that either works or breaks mysteriously.
Except tech support people are a programmer's worst nightmare: users who can think, and who need to get at the guts of your software to make it actually *work*.
A programmer who sneers at tech support people is a programmer who quite simply HAS NO CLUE as to how software is used in the real world and the wider context of what they're doing. And that kind of programmer has no business writing software at all.
Programmer arrogance is a huge part of the software quality crisis.
Re:Stop screwing around hoping for a handout (Score:3, Insightful)
Not hardly! The competition for academic positions is insane! It's not like the streets are filled with Ph.D.s in C. Sci. living in boxes, but getting a tenure-track position even at a community college is incredibly competitive.
You dug your own grave (Score:3, Insightful)
Given that your professional background consists of working in a call center, and that you probably aren't applying for call center positions... I mean, you can't see the mismatch here?
Unless I were facing an extreme shortage of applicants... I'd agree with them.
But what you can't show them is any experience, nor can you show them any initiative - having simply stuck with the same very low level job.
First interview (Score:4, Insightful)
If you made it to the first interview then your background (in tech support) isn't the problem. The interviewer's time is worth too much to spend it interviewing the dozens of applicants whose background indicated a problem.
No, the problem is you. Either your presentation is poor (did you dress in a suit? conservative tie? do you smell? have open pustules? how long is your hair?), your mad computer engineering skillz don't add up to what you think they do OR (and this last one is very common) you didn't exhibit a can-do attitude.
Did you disdain your tech support background? It may be that the company is looking for a junior developer to interface with an upscale client, help with the testing, implement a little of the the easy stuff but mostly translate requirements for the senior devs. If you truly have the skills, that's as good a bridge as any. Better really: a cross-disciplinary role puts you in a controlling position, where your talent (if you have it) will shine.
The worst person I've ever interviewed explained that in a systems administration role there should never be a reason why he'd be expected to stay after 5 pm. The second worst explained that he was no stranger to keeping a cot in his office to deal with routinely long hours. The former indicated a bad attitude combined with poor judgment: an unrealistic assessment of a system administrator's job. The latter indicated a fellow who worked harder when I wanted someone to work smarter... a quality sysadmin prevents more fires than he fights. If you're fighting enough fires to need a cot in your office, you're not up to the task.
My favorite line in an interview is: "Point me at the problem that's giving you the most grief. I have a broad range of expertise and I'm ready to put it to use where it will best benefit you."
Yes, there is some reluctance to hire folks outside of their background. I recently made the transition from the systems administration track to software development track, so I've experienced it. Nevertheless, the only interview that didn't generate a job offer was one where the company specifically did not want a software developer.
playing the game (Score:2, Insightful)
A lot of people here have contributed useful advice on the technical aspect of the situation.
One big lesson I've learned this year is *huge* value of personal relationships. I knew it was important before, but now I'm really beginning to appreciate the magnitude of it.
I think a lot of us nerd and geek types grew up independent and idealistic... perhaps not pursuing many group activities because we could sense a great deal of bs required in such things (saying things you don't mean, kissing butt, holding your tongue). We're smart enough to realize what a big silly game it can be. Us geeky types are principle-oriented... we wouldn't want to drawn into playing that game. As an adult, you look around and see that the same thing very much exists there too.
Geeks expect our intelligence and skills to get us everywhere, but personal relationships and how people perceive you are the things that will give you opportunities.
You need to develop all sorts of contacts. Get involved with many different groups. Talk more with the more distant family members (cousins are generally a good one). Don't be shy about putting yourself into situations you're not comfortable in, and don't be shy about asking for something you would like or need. Start doing personal favors for people other than your closest friends. If you're at a party where there are people you don't know, make the effort to start and carry on a conversation with them.
Learn to take genuine interest in others, and they will remember you.
Also, the problem with generalizations (Score:3, Insightful)
Also, there's usually a problem with that kind of generalizations. I mean, by the same logic, someone who's a man will like women, but you'd be awfully wrong about 10% of the population there.
At any rate, as I was saying, they _can_ just give the guy a test, so why is it even necessary to reach for lame generalizations and guesswork there? Instead of guessing whether a guy is competent based on his previous job, star sign, numerology score, racial profile, or any other BS, how about just asking and seeing for yourself? I mean:
- if he's going for programmer, ask him to write a quick FizzBizz
- if he claims to be an architect guru, ask him when he _wouldn't_ use patterns X, Y and Z. Weeds out the Cargo Cult architects like a charm.
- if he's going for DBA, ask him, say, about the auto-tuning since Oracle 10g or whatever apropriate
- if he's going for WebSphere admin, ask him about configuring a cluster and, say, how do you configure an EJB as singleton in the high-availability manager
Etc.
And I'm not just saying that because some ex-L1 monkey could actually be competent (greater miracles have been known to happen), but also because someone coming from some great job could be a Wally. There are entirely too many places where you can keep a job by just having a butt to fill a chair, and even more where a little social engineering is all that's needed. There are people who keep their job by pretending to be the boss's best friend, or the best friend of some nerd who'll then write his programs too, etc.
According to one article I've seen, about 3 out of 4 programmers can't actually program worth beans and actually do more harm than good to the projects they're in. According to another study, a bit over 2 out of 3 didn't know the language they're paid to program in. That bad.
So hiring someone just because he had a job like that, seems stupid.
I could understand it, if guesswork was the only choice. But when you can put the guy in front of a cloned computer and ask him to demonstrate those l33t skillz, why not do just that? You can even have a laptop and a stack of pre-cloned HDDs (e.g., with the same mis-tuned database if you hire a DBA), and just swap them between interviews.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:4, Insightful)
If anything the mass amount of linux users shows just how crappy the proprietary options are, just look are some of the hoops that people have to jump through to use linux yet they contiue to use it...and WHY?
I can't speak for everyone, but I started running Linux back in '99 because it was an entertaining waste of time to poke around, break stuff, find out what I did wrong, etc. I didn't consider myself to be jumping through hoops, but playing with a large pile of Lego/K'nex pieces. Perhaps it's curiosity, rather than disdain for the alternatives, that's driving Linux and other OSS projects.
Re:shaving reduces credibility (Score:3, Insightful)
HR drones are mainly a problem prior to the interview. BTW, I generally bypass them.
At every place I've ever interviewed, my first face-to-face contact after the receptionist was a technical person. (usually the potential manager, sometimes a potential co-worker)
The receptionist asks who you are there to see, calls them, they come get you, etc.
To a certain degree, I actually want to get filtered out by the people that expect a suit. I don't think this has happened to me, but it wouldn't be a bad thing. Such places would be unpleasant to work at.
BTW, it's not a plain white Hanes T-shirt with holes and armpit stains, nor one that advertizes beer!
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:3, Insightful)
As an employee who started out by doing 3.5 years first level support for a host of products at first and then for particular larger accounts, I take offense.
After the first years I rolled into Consulting, meaning implementation, maintenance and enhancement of customers' infrastructure. Then I held a job as a Pre-Sales Consultant for two and a half years, and I was an EMEA Escalation Manager for a year, but in the end I decided I simply like Tech Support so I stepped back into Software L2 support for enterprise customers.
I do this job because I like it better than the others. Furthermore, I am damn good at diagnosing complex systems (I support Linux based GRID computing solutions at present), I excel at communicating with customers in different cultures and languages in such a way that "hot" sites cool down when I step in and I've been at this game for roughly 7 years if you take the above mentioned hiatus into account. I've been with my company for 13 years, and I can't see myself moving in many directions, because I simply don't like them.
This has nothing to do with a lack of ability, drive, work-ethic or poor communication skills. I speak 5 languages fluently, have forgotten more about mass storage devices, software and infrastructure than most of you on this forum will ever bother to learn, and have continuously harvested praise for my work, which I take seriously.
Now the person who posted the original question might have issues in selling himself to potential employers, this is true. But to say that the entire tech support community are Incompetent Disney-script Monkeys rubs me the wrong way. I double dare most developers to manage enterprise customer relationships in the face of critical system down cases with hordes of managers on their backs. I sincerely doubt many developers would have what it takes to perform that particular role, and I take offense at your snooty post.
Just a thought.
PS. No, I do not work for a mom-and-pop ISP that asks you to type cmd and ipconfig on your MacOS/X box.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>"I can't seem to get further than the first interview..."
If the company liked your resume enough to bring you in for an interview, but you still don't get the job, then the problem is not your resume. The problem is your interview skills. I too have a hard time getting past in-person interviews.
So now I do contract work, which only requires a phone interview, a much easier hurdle to jump over. The employers are a lot less picky when they know you're only temporary. Perhaps you should contact some recruiting companies (headhunters) who will hire you as your employee & then "farm you out" on a contractual basis.
Sorry to say, your case is very typical (Score:3, Insightful)
I hope you don't mind if I added you to my growing listing of recent graduates who can not find a job. You are the second person I have added just today. The dice discussion boards are filled with people in the same situation, here is a brief listing:
http://techtoil.org/wiki/doku.php?id=articles:news_and_commentary [techtoil.org]
Can you believe that corporate CEOs has the gall to sit before congress and claim that there are sever shortages of US IT workers? The pop-media is flooded with articles about how IT jobs are recession proof, and the US IT field is red hot and growing faster than ever.
Would should employers hire US IT workers, when offshore labor is cheaper? Both candidates are strong supporters of allowing more guest workers.
Re:Two years in the first line? (Score:3, Insightful)
The original poster didn't say what kind of job he was looking for, so we have to assume it's a developer position based on his CE degree and his personal projects.
In that case, I wouldn't stress anything about his current job, because it's nearly irrelevant.
In fact, maybe that's his problem. Maybe he spends too much time talking about his tech support job, and no time talking about his outside projects.
Why even put the tech support job on his resume? Your resume is supposed to list things you want to talk about, and an interviewer will naturally move the conversation towards your last job if you put it there. But that's not what he wants to talk about at all! He wants to talk about why he chose obscure language XYZ for his last project, or some interesting book he read.
If I were interviewing someone, and they tried to make their low-level tech support job sound like it would help him be a programmer somehow, I would get a negative impression. However, if they realized they were wasting their time during their day job, and spent their evenings working on stuff they found more interesting, I would see that as a positive.