IT Job Without a Degree? 1123
adh0c writes "I have been lurking Slashdot for some time now without registering and I don't think this question has been answered yet. Is it possible to get a good IT job (assuming that there is such a thing), preferably a sysadmin position, without having a BS or other degree? From browsing the job postings on Monster and such, it would seem that everyone wants university papers. Is there hope for computer enthusiasts who didn't go to college?"
Re:Do you live in a van down by the river? (Score:3, Informative)
That's not completely true. You can also do well going to a trade school instead of college.
Re:Do you live in a van down by the river? (Score:5, Informative)
Seconded. I dropped out of high school my junior year, got my GED, immediately started working for a web dev firm doing sysadmin work. 10 years later (Just turned 26) I own my own professional services/hosting firm. Don't let anyone lie to you and say you need a degree, for what you lack with paper you'll just need to make up for with effort.
Re:Of Course.... (Score:1, Informative)
I work for my college's IT department, it's a small shop and my direct boss doesn't have a degree. However he spent quite a few years at a couple different places getting lots of experience and he is now the senior help desk guy and mid-level sys admin. As I said we are a small shop so there is alot of cross over between jobs but not all of the higher level people have degrees.
With that said, without a degree you aren't going to get the top level jobs, my brother has a BS in CS and an MBA and makes six figures as a system administrator. I don't think someone without a degree or a ton of experience has that much earning potential. Though if you've got what it takes and don't mind proving it for a few years I think it's possible to get a career in IT without a degree.
Re:start small (Score:4, Informative)
From what I've seen, and it might not be true everywhere, but people want to see your on-the-job experience. They basically want to see that what you did in your last job is the same as what you will be doing in the new job. And they mean last job, they want you to have experience and they want the experience to be current.
A degree or diploma or certificates are all probably enough - if you've got the experience. None are good enough on their own. The last interview I did the rest of the panel were really blown away by this chick who had no formal education at all, but plenty of experience.
Re:Experiance (Score:2, Informative)
Did your college education teach you any spelling? Or do they stop teaching that in grade school? "Experiance" is not a word.
I love how everyone with a degree thinks that is the only way anyone can get a good job. What you need is the knowledge in your field. If you don't have the knowledge, get an entry level job and work your way up. Learn on the job and improve your skill set. When you can't move up in that company anymore, move on.
Re:Without education, you'll be a poor computer te (Score:4, Informative)
I've had conversations with people that have a "proper CompSci education" and they couldn't hold an intelligent conversation about programming with a monkey.
Re:Do you live in a van down by the river? (Score:2, Informative)
No degree, HS dropout w/ GED. No certs (I'm about to get my Security+ due to job requirements), in 100k /yr sysadmin position. Oh, and I managed to get a Secret Clearance out of the deal too...
Granted, I may have worked harder to get here, but it is possible. Even so, in the environment I'm in, I'd almost rather be in a trade then a Sysadmin type position.
Re:Do you live in a van down by the river? (Score:2, Informative)
I dropped out of High School as a sophomore. I immediately started working in the industry. I started out doing tech support, and eventually moved into network administration. In IT, what people care about is your ability. Companies know that the best IT workers are those that would do it as a hobby even if they couldn't do it professionally.
Yes, yes, yes. (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Everything is a lot easier with the degree (Score:3, Informative)
For a candidate who has a lot of experience and references, it's less of an issue.
I advise that the best thing to do if you don't have a degree is not to list your college level education at all. If you list that you have some higher education but didn't complete it, employers hold it against you. If you don't list your college education at all, they're more likely to either not notice, or assume that you have a degree but didn't list it for some reason, such as that perhaps it's in an unrelated field. (A lot of people who work in computing didn't study computer science.)
One other thing to do if you want to work in IT is get some certifications, in topics that you see mentioned by employers you'd like to work for in their job ads. Certifications absolutely mesmerize many employers. I've been an IT director, and I've had experiences with HR trying to talk me into hiring an unqualified candidate with a bunch of certifications instead of a qualified candidate with a college degree and relevant experience. In fact, in one case HR even pressured me to hire a candidate with a bunch of certifications that <i>weren't even relevant to the position</i> and no relevant experience <i>after</i> I'd already hired my candidate of choice and was satisfied with their work.
A certification will probably cost you a few thousand dollars, but it's a lot cheaper than a college degree, and can get you in the door fast. You'll have to shell out to update your certifications every few years, but if you're working for an employer for whom your certs are relevant, they'll often be willing to pay for the refresher courses and testing.
Re:Not in this economy. (Score:5, Informative)
If you are smart you don't need the piece of paper to indicate such. It may take you a little longer to get moving upwards but experience is really what they want and you only get that by doing. If however you are not able to convince others you have a brain then get a piece of paper as this will help you.
I don't have a degree (in fact dropped out during my second year), but now work for the IT department of the university I went to, and I like to think my prospects for the future are good. But it did take a little while in a shitty job to get some experience to get this far.
Re:dead. end. job. (Score:3, Informative)
anecdotal evidence does not qualify as scientific evidence
If you are very good, you will excel without Uni. Half the reason you go to Uni is to make your mind work in a certain way. It's like doing lateral thinking questions of trivia. After a while you get good at it.
You do math questions your brain conditions it self to think in a particular way. You cannot replace that by reading C++ in 24h
There are exceptions, but the rule is
Not sure about today (Score:1, Informative)
Posted as Anon for obvious reasons.
I'm in IT, and have been since the mid-90s. I have no college education - in fact, I dropped out of high school midway through junior year because I was bored of it all.
To say I took the long road would be an understatement - years of desktop support, mom & pop shop work, etc - the entire time working in my spare time on furthering my knowledge. Certs, proof of concept labs, etc - I did it. I had a network of over 2 dozen servers at one point, all connected with Cisco gear - sounds more expensive then it is, the dotCom bubble dropped things considerably.
Then a friend of mine was doing construction for a finance company, they needed someone so he arranged an interview. That was literally my 'big break'. I went from $32k, 6 months later $53k, and then it kept growing. Now I make over $120k/year as Principle Administrator of a fairly exclusive university on the east coast. Ivy league. So yes, it can be done, but it won't by any means be easy.
A large part of IT is 'talking the talk'. If you're smart, willing to work hard, and don't mind the extra work - you can talk yourself into a position you might not be 100% qualified for. Then you pick it up, fast, as you go and bam - there you go, more skills to add.
Good luck! It can be done!
It is possible... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Don't think so! (Score:5, Informative)
I think the big thing a lot of people seem to forget about college is that it forces you to jump through hoops. Lots of them, every day. Tons and tons of hoops. Hoops you wouldn't otherwise give a damn about, but you do it because you have to.
Proving you can do this, and do it well, is pretty much exactly what I need to know about you. Guess what? Most of any modern job is doing just that; jumping through hoops. Sometimes the hoops in question are complex, and it'd be nice knowing you were able to manage your way through those at some point at a University.
Basically: given two people of equal knowledge, one with a college degree and one without, barring any personality concerns, I'll pick the university degree over the person without one any day.
If you won't even go through the effort to prove to me that you are willing to go through a bunch of bullshit for something you want, then why should I trust you to go through the bullshit that will show up as a matter of course in any job for a paycheck? What is there to tell me that you won't just coast and accept said check and mail it in, day after day after day?
It's not fair to say that you're like that, because it's very possible you're not. However, when it comes down to it, I'm not willing to take that chance.
(Sidenote: I'm not actually a fan of bullshit and jumping through hoops, but to say they don't ever happen is a bit naive at best. Just saying...)
It's still possible, but it may take a while (Score:3, Informative)
Unless you are well connected (a good network), it will be difficult to jump into a sysadmin position without a degree or significant prior experience. You may need to start in an entry level job and pray that you move through the ranks quickly. Alternately, and perhaps a better way for the enthusiast, would be to document all of the significant projects on which you've worked, and then seek out volunteer positions with non-profits. The non-profits will (most often) be more concerned about your skills, and since you won't be paid, they have less to lose in taking a chance on a non-degreed person. The non-profits will then give you those experience items on your resume (like a list of jobs--people perspective employers may call for references).
In any case, be sure to structure your resume to focus on your technical expertise, rather than your employment history. Start with a list of major projects and IT skills, then employment history, and finally education (if you have any degrees or certifications of any type). When preparing to interview, be sure to have stories and illustrations ready that demonstrate your level of skill, and the complexity of the environments in which you have served.
I landed my first two full-time IT gigs without a degree, but I started in support positions. Over time, I went back to school and earned a degree (in business management with an IT emphasis), mostly as a "just in case" degree--in case I ever needed to apply for another job, since degrees were starting to become a litmus test. In time, that degree served me well, and helped me to parley my way into some better positions.
So, it can be done, but it can be a long road.
Re:Experiance (Score:3, Informative)
You get maybe 100 CVs. You have 5 interview slots.
If all you've got on your CV is 'I have a cool qualification' then yes, I'll assume that you're in it for the money and bin it.
If you have lots of experience out of work, have played with Linux, your first computer was a hand built ZX80 *and* you have a cool qualification then you might get as far as interview.
Re:It's necessary, but not required (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure who you are addressing this to. I have a bachelors and a masters degree. Mine are non-technical. At the time I applied, I had a BS and MCSE and CCNA and 5+ years of experience. The HR department refuesed to pass my application on to the hiring department (I presume IT, but for all I know it was a customer service department) because I didn't have a degree in Computer Science. The only degree that counts as a degree was CS. Any other degree was counted as if they were a high school graduate, including if I were to re-apply now that I've completed an MBA.
Had they gone to college, they would have skills like critical thinking, leadership, and the ability to form complete sentences.
Well, I'm presuming from your attitude that you've completed college. However, you haven't managed basic reading skills. I said nothing that indicated someone shouldn't go to college. I indicated that I had gone to college (presumably an endorsement of it) and even after the experience I relayed, I went back for my masters (a further endorsement). And somehow you seem to take my comments to indicate that I'm supporting not getting a degree. I stated that someone may run into places where a degree is required (even when it shouldn't be) and thus will have limited access. However, even without a degree, one can still succeed. Starting off a reply with "sorry, but..." makes it sound like you are disagreeing, yet you said nothing that is in disagreement with what I've said. You essentially said "whether it is good or bad for your career, it is good for you personally." As for certs vs degrees, you are trolling. People with degrees like to claim superiority. However, I've seen nothing that supports that. I would guess that I have more degrees than you and more certs than you, and depending on what you are aiming for, one may be better suited than the other, but none of them are a reflection on the person holding them for anything more useful than sorting resumes. A degree is a cert, like all the others.
Re:Not in this economy. (Score:4, Informative)
Re:Experience (Score:2, Informative)
'Tis a shame the max for mod points is 5.
If you truly value experience over credentials, the experienced non-degree candidate gives you exactly that. In fact, they have nothing else to sell.
There are a few other benefits as well. Thanks to the mechanics of HR departments, the non-degree candidate is not likely to be a job hopper. Their only path to success is to pick up new skills and fully dominate the challenges in front of them. One other bonus: Never having to listen to someone trying to win an argument with the "But I have a degree!" logic. That alone makes the non-degree strategy worth considering.
The only downside is that people learn some useful skills in college. You need to verify that your candidate learned those skills somewhere (preferably at the expense of some other employer).
Considering the increasing number of foreign candidates with bogus degrees, the number of non-degree IT workers is much higher than anyone is willing to admit. The majority of offshore people have real degrees, but fakes are certainly out there. It certainly explains the occasional MSCS with third grade English skills who trips over a SQL select statement. Being a foreigner is not a prerequisite for having a fake degree, but it helps when the school in question has language and time zone barriers that interfere with verification. And of course, technology favors the fakers.
I once worked in government. They were REALLY strict about checking transcripts. About 5% turned out to be bogus -- people whose degree claims could not be substantiated with transcripts mailed from the school. The percentage of fakes would have been much higher, but the verification was limited to finalists -- people who were probably getting a job offer if their references checked out. God only knows how many fakes we would have caught if we considered H1-Bs or did a full verification on all candidates. I was originally hired as an entry-level temp, and reluctantly admitted by the HR department (only after they realized that I had accepted an offer and it was too late for them to say no). Thirteen years and 6 promotions later I still had no degree, but I was much higher in the org chart. As a department manager, I had candidates getting their applications tossed for bogus degree claims, while I had none in the first place. And of course, we hired contractors who were somehow exempt from the process.
If your company's degree verification is anything less than superb, you can assume that 5% of your co-workers have fake degrees.
No matter what a job requirement might claim, employers HIRE experience. Degrees are a screening criteria -- simply a reason to NOT hire a candidate. It allows the HR department to take a large stack of resumes and turn it into a smaller stack. If the stack is already small, the degree requirement is suddenly less important.
Some candidates think they can get hired by eliminating all of the reasons why employers are saying "No". To me, this is impossible. The excuses never end. I think it's much more productive to work on things that make employers say "Yes".
Some fields are truly credentials-based. You get the credential and sooner or later someone hires you. Getting into the field is merely a numbers game -- put enough paper in play, conduct a reasonable interview, and wait.
IT hiring has always been more like the world of dating. No matter what we SAY we want (personality, honesty, compatibility, etc.), the REALITY is different. An attractive person walks into the room and all heads turn. We preach the importance of degrees until a highly experienced candidate walks into the room, causing the discussion to shift dramatically.
For what it's worth: I have over 20 years of experience in practically every job you can get in the IT industry. Although I have no degree, my career has been a great success. Not everyone should follow my example, but no one should be discouraged about the possibilities.
I tell IT people to plan their educ
aisysop (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Don't think so! (Score:5, Informative)
So you're under the misguided assumption that University actually teaches you important skills that are used in the pursued career?
Listen: college didn't teach me anything I didn't already know about software engineering. Mostly it just took up my time and my money. Showing a willingness to jump through those hoops for the end goal (a degree) was apparently enough to interest my employer, who hired me as an intern. I learned more working on the job in my first 2 months than I did the entire 4 years of University combined.
Add to this was our University president, who at commencement stated "Remember: an undergraduate degree does not mean you are educated. It simply means that you are educatable."
The whole point he was trying to get across was that we didn't go for an undergraduate degree to learn the subject matter so much as we obtained an undergraduate degree to learn how to learn.
The thought process is "teach a man to learn, and he will learn his entire life".
Re:Do you live in a van down by the river? (Score:3, Informative)
I have never seen a degree program that could improve the troubleshooting process that goes on inside someone's head. A lack of functional fixedness is a major plus and that can't be taught either.
We tend to laugh at MCSEs and people with Computer Science degrees. They come out of their training with ideas that need to be beaten out of them to make them useful. (Three users on a network! Lets install a domain!!! (GAAACK!?)) We've tried hiring a few people with MCSEs and A+ certs. They are all gone. Degrees and certs do not delineate a person's ability. You are better off asking applicants how they would solve various technical issues so you can see their brain at work.
Lots of customers ask me how their kids/relatives can get into the business. I tell them that a certification might get them an entry level job but the real important bits are how they think and how much experience they have. They need to be the type of person who remembers every bad thing that ever happened to them and what they had to solve those things. Then they have to go out into the world and let bad things happen to them for about 10 years. Then they will be good techs.
Programming is a totally different side of IT. A degree would actually make a difference there. Companies also love to snap up young programmers too.
Re:Not in this economy. (Score:3, Informative)
So what do you call what Cisco hardware is used for? (Hint: the people "networking" was well defined before the computer "networking")