Tricked Into Buying OpenOffice.org? 543
mldkfa writes "Recently I told a friend about OpenOffice and how it was a great alternative to the big name pay office suites. She went home and searched on Google for it and thought she found the website, filled typical registration information, and downloaded OpenOffice.org 3.0. The next time she opened her e-mail she found a request for 98 [Euro] for her 1-year subscription to OpenOffice.org 3.0 from the company that she downloaded it from. Apparently the EULA stated this cost and here in Germany she is required to pay up. So I thought I would ask Slashdot, should she pay? On the OpenOffice.org German website there is a warning of these schemes being legal. Shouldn't Sun change the license of OpenOffice.org to protect their fans or are they doing this to protect someone else? It has really made me think about recommending it to any more friends." Below, read Google's translation of the warning; it wouldn't be the first time that open source software has been lightly repackaged and sold in ways that should raise eyebrows among anyone familiar with the wide, free availability of the same apps.
Google translates the warning message thus: "WARNING before downloading from any third party: The download of OpenOffice.org is free from this page possible. These are not personal data. In recent times, however, we can reach more complaints about companies that the program for a fee for downloading. Among other leading search engines to search for OpenOffice.org to pay "download subscriptions. We want to emphasize that we have these offers are not affiliated and is not responsible. Due to the open-source philosophy allowed our license, but also the sale. When you download OpenOffice.org under no circumstances disclose your personal information!"
What's the German Word for "Boned?" (Score:5, Informative)
Shouldn't Sun change the license of OpenOffice.org to protect their fans or are they doing this to protect someone else?
First of all, it's the general public that doesn't understand open source that need protection--highly unlikely a 'fan' would buy OpenOffice.org or even download it from a third party.
Second, your friend is boned [gnu.org].
Does the GPL allow me to sell copies of the program for money?
Yes, the GPL allows everyone to do this. The right to sell copies is part of the definition of free software. Except in one special situation, there is no limit on what price you can charge. (The one exception is the required written offer to provide source code that must accompany binary-only release.)
Unless she downloaded it without being notified upfront of the cost, she ain't going to win this one. If they even host a binary distribution from their site they can claim the bandwidth you used was worth whatever you have to pay. If they aren't also offering you the source code [openoffice.org] or haven't given it to you of that distribution, you could maybe send the EFF after them and try to escape via that route ... although I've seen lawyers work their magic & you could still end up paying.
... because maybe it's an integral part of our product?
Third, they aren't going to limit or restrict selling their software because this could turn into a scary thing for companies. I write proprietary software for my job. I use code licensed as open source. I make available the source to my customer and they pay my company quite well so that we can adopt and add to that code to specifically suite their needs. It's fairly close to 'software as a service.' Now, assuming I used some library (I can't think of anything off of OO.o that I would use) but my company's law-talkin' guys would be scared as hell if it said I couldn't charge money for it
Do your friend a favor: sit down with her and talk with her. Explain to her that not every piece of software requires you pay out your ass to use it. In the United States, I would call the Better Business Bureau and let them know about this company you speak of. I don't know a lot about your rights or organizations that will help you in Germany but I wish you the best of luck.
Bottom line: For the sake of and proliferation of open source, please don't argue for a fork of the GPL or even for stipulations on charging to be worked into it.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
That depends on what the submitter means by "typical registration information". To me, typical registration information means a name and an email address, but there are plenty of sites, particularly download sites that specialize in "free trial" type software, that will take a lot more information such as name, address and phone number. If they got that information, they could easily get enough information on her to ding her credit. At the very least, they could harass her until she gives up and pays them.
This is why you always give a fake address when asked unless it's a (reputable!) company where you're actually paying for something at the time or if it's a (reputable!) company which is actually going to send you some physical object.
Allowed not only in Germany (Score:5, Informative)
Selling (L)GPLed software is authorized by the license (and even encouraged apparently). See http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/selling.html [gnu.org]
However in your case the price was probably not apparent at the time of sale (or else you would'nt complain now I assume), and thus the sale is illegal under European law. So don't pay.
Re:Erm? (Score:5, Informative)
My best guess is she went to openoffice.com, and clicked the link to download OpenOffice there.
It takes you to a website [download-new.com] that does indeed let you download OpenOffice.org - but you have to sign up to be a member of their download service first.
So she didn't actually get charged for OOo, she got charged for the privilege of being in their SOOPER-DOWNLOADERZ club. Sleazy, but caveat emptor.
Right to return wares (Score:4, Informative)
I think there are laws in Germany (and all of the EU) that state that when you buy something over the Internet, you can return the product within a few weeks (at least 2) if you are not satisfied. Google for Widerrufrecht.
If they did not tell her of this possibility, they are hosed. Not sure what are the penalties for not telling the customers about it, but they must be pretty stiff since every time I order something (yes I live in Germany) I get lots of information about it.
Do this, and do it *FAST* (Score:5, Informative)
2) After having consulted with the lawyer, "return" the software. Delete it or similar...
The point is that german law requires everybody who sells anything on-line to take back the merchandise on the request of the customer within 2 weeks. It's a kind of a safety net against exactly this kind of scams.
Now I don't exactly know how "returning" would translate for software, but that's exactly she needs to talk to a lawyer about, and she needs to do that *fast*, in order to be able to answer before the two-weeks-deadline passes.
However, I wouldn't respond to the e-mail of the scamers directly. Someone here on
If they try to scare her off, in Germany she even has the possibility to file a negative clearifying charge (it's called "negative Feststellungsklage", I don't know the exact english legal construct for this). The charge is aimed at clearifying in front of the law whether she is or is not guilty of whatever they will try to accuse her. The nice thing about this charge is that it's her call, not theirs. So they *need* to prove that they have a valid case, or else they loose. If they loose, they pay (up to several thounsands of euros). It's another protection gimmick of the german law system against scamers
I'm from Germany and had similar issue (Score:3, Informative)
This is a scam that you should ignore or better, contact your local "verbraucherzentrale". Here are some info http://www.verbraucherzentrale-bayern.de/UNIQ123205386511451/link462241A.html ;)
For my case I just ignored them and they gave up. If they did not, my next step would have been to send them a scary (aka lawyer talk) letter written by the verbraucherzentrale
P.S.: the consultation with the verbraucherzentrale costed me 10 euro.
True.. but the solution is more simple. (Score:3, Informative)
They'll go away. If they don't they'll have to take her to a small claims type court, and that will cost them money. She won't lose this case. She can say that she never downloaded it and it was someone else that did (I sort of doubt this company would get a subpoena for the ISP to get her IP address information..) or she could say the software was listed as free.
I doubt it would go to court.. these people are just slimeballs looking for easy dollars, not hard dollars.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
This particular scam is popular in Germany in different guises. I can't remember the details of how the person I read about handled it, but I do know that ignoring it is NOT the correct answer. Which is one reason why the scam is popular. If someone is truly motivated, check out the expat forum toytowngermany.com, I'm sure the thread is still there.
We saw the same thing (Score:5, Informative)
When my son got a laptop for college, he went to download OpenOffice instead of paying for Office and called me asking for a credit card to pay for it with. Reading the fine print I saw that the site was charging for the download of the software from their servers, but for any problems you were supposed to contact OpenOffice.org.
There are a number of legally gray sites doing similar things. I know of one that has a page that previously came up high in Google rankings because of adwords for you to order particular documents. The site charged you to "explain how to order" then when you went to get the documents, you were routed to a legitimate site that sold the documents and then you were charged for the docs. Many people called the legit site asking why they were being charged twice.
This is apparently legal, so long as there is a disclaimer on the page. Turns out in this case the disclaimer was very small print, but still there. The legit site started monitoring the referral header so they could let the visitor know they had not yet actually purchased anything, but it still caused calls to the legit company's help desk and complaint lines.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
Germany can be pretty screwed up in some respects, especially if you're used to living in a fairly "loose" system like the US. Still, Berlin's great. Low rents, cheap food, good beer, and incredible nightlife. And plenty of cute girls in Kreuzberg. It's not quite New York or Paris or London, but for 1/4 the price, I'm sure as hell not complaining.
Standard (Score:5, Informative)
Hi,
happens quite often, but usually you can refuse payment and would win any lawsuite. I've done a lot of consulting to victims of such traps. None of them payed anything and none was ever forced to pay. There was a lot of "shock and awe" legal letters but it turned out all to be smoke&mirrors and never any court was involved. If any one wants to know what to do in such a case (in germany) or needs any letter examples to respond to invoices, contact me.
Regards, Martin
Re:Why is this awful? (Score:3, Informative)
Yet another reply...
Here [www.chip.de] is a link to the first unknown site to me ("unknown" means not wikipedia and not openoffice.org) from google.de search for "openoffice." here [google.de] is the search. Still having a hard time finding a scam.
This guy [ztw3.com] apparently did find one: openoffice-suite.com [openoffice-suite.com] and also www-openoffice.com [www-openoffice.com]
Re:Some companies are charging people for CD-ROMs (Score:3, Informative)
I've heard of a company in the U.S. that is selling CD-ROMs containing OpenOffice for ~$10.
What's wrong with that? In the late '90s, I bought several Linux distributions on CD-ROM sets, since I had a slow internet connection and no CD burner. There used to be a lot of places selling CD sets for reasonable prices (a couple dollars per disc, plus shipping).
These days, almost every computer has a CD or DVD burner and broadband internet is ubiquitous, but for those who don't have those things, $10 for CDs of OpenOffice doesn't seem unreasonable to me.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
In the UK, even if you agree to buy something online you have a seven day 'cooling off' period in which to cancel. If she agreed to purchase OpenOffice from these (cretinous) people in the UK and didn't cancel within that time, she'd be liable to the charge.
Obviously, if they're going to lengths to make it appear as though it is a free download but in reality you have to pay it would be fraud.
Remember, the GPL allows you to resell the software. I doubt many people would like to see the GPL changed to mandate free (as in beer) sale of all software distributed under that license.
Apologies for the rambling nature of this comment, I'm quite drunk.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:2, Informative)
It's wabbit season.
Re:It is not legal to "sell" GPL software, but ... (Score:2, Informative)
Re:Never Pay (Score:2, Informative)
No, they are selling her OpenOffice.org 3. Which is perfectly legal. Even though she could have gotten it for free elsewhere.
Is it worth what she is charged for it? No, but that goes for quite a lot of goods.
Don't pay and call a consumer association! (Score:2, Informative)
So what I'd do would be to call the legal service of my consumer association now
Re:Erm? (Score:3, Informative)
Yup. Search Google for "openoffice." The first result is for "OpenOffice 2009 Free" (a google adwords ad, of course, but many people sadly don't know the difference). The link takes you to some official-looking website, openoffice-software.com, which in turn links to some sleazy pay site.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
I'm in Belgium, if somebody sends you something, then asks you to or send money or send it back, you can instead keep it and not send money. Equal laws exist for internet shopping.
On a sidenote, you can get azureus in Italy with some commercial shops in it luring you to buy download stuff there, and it was the top hit in google. I use linux and OSS since last century and was fooled in installing it for a friend (on windows of course, no apt-get). These things can look really legitimate. Let's hope the 'vote it down' possibility added to google makes these sites less prominent.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
There's no problem with selling Open source software... I've even run into boxes of repackaged OpenOffice at the grocery and office supply stores in the US. But that's the point, you get to buy a box and you know what you're paying up front unlike this story.
This story is really about German law allowing all sorts of scammers. They are one of the countries that allows all sorts of junk in EULAs as "binding contracts" over and above even the US. And don't they also have those "identity" laws that make using fake names/info for online registration and actual crime? As well as the forbidding of anonymous email addresses and such. Combine the two and you have the perfect storm where people can "purchase" things just by going to sites... even though their consumer retail laws are quite the opposite.
Sublicensing? (Score:5, Informative)
8. You may not copy, modify, sublicense, link with, or distribute the Library except as expressly provided under this License. Any attempt otherwise to copy, modify, sublicense, link with, or distribute the Library is void, and will automatically terminate your rights under this License. However, parties who have received copies, or rights, from you under this License will not have their licenses terminated so long as such parties remain in full compliance. [emphasis added]
Selling a copy of the software—with an up-front price, like you said—would be one thing, but it appears that they are trying to impose a secondary license agreement (the EULA) on top of the LGPL that contractually binds the user to some payment after the fact. The license, and all other versions of the GPL and LGPL, forbid that outright. In fact, that company may now be forbidden from distributing OpenOffice.org to anyone at all, since they voided the entire license for themselves. (Not a lawyer.)
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
Well, I am German. In Germany there is an well defined process on how you collect your money.
1) Rechnung (Invoice)
2) Mahnung (Informs you that you are late paying)
3) Goin to court and getting the permission to get a court order, which will be executed by the state
Just doing nothing can easily end up in 3). I would suggest, if the situation in unclear, to go to a lawyer. My experience pretty much says that in Germany most scammers back off. Usually when people trying to fuck around with you get a nice letter from a lawyer they stop statistically is does not pay off for them.
But m,ore could only de said if somebody would post a link to the specific company in question, so that we can read their AGB (Something terms of service)
Re:What was she googling for? (Score:3, Informative)
Contrary to the belief of many on /., a lot of people simply have no clue how to use the Internet. This makes sense when you consider the level of computer understanding among the general public before the Internet. What made you think they'd understand the Internet properly?
They have, however, noticed that "(company name).com" generally works.
Do that with OpenOffice and see what happens.
Re:Cost in the EULA? (Score:1, Informative)
If you're talking about the GPL, no, it's not a "typical" EULA - you're not required to agree with it or even read it to use the software, just to distribute it. Also, the charge is theoretically for providing the service of distributing the software. So (IANAL of course) I don't think you could invalidate the purchase or the license by deleting the software.
Re:What's the German Word for "Boned?" (Score:5, Informative)
Just because it's legal for someone to demand money (selling free software is certainly allowed in Germany), doesn't mean you have to pay what they demand. A payment demand hidden in a EULA or AGB (Allgemeine Geschäftsbedingungen) does not mean you've entered a legally binding contract when you clicked on "download". That doesn't mean the scammer is violating the law, unfortunately - but neither do you have to pay.
In general the way to deal with these sites is this: do not react on them contacting you - an IP number and data entered into a web form is not enough for them to get their claim accepted by the court. However if you do respond and admit you downloaded from their site, then they have some more ammunition - not enough, but don't give it to them, anyway. For the IP number to be correlated to your address, they need a German judge to issue an order to your IP provider. Of course the judge won't don't that - these scammers have tried to get orders like that many times, and they've always been unsuccessful. Scammers are not very popular, judges usually don't go out of their way to help them.
So don't communicate with the scammers - wait for the court order (gerichtlicher Mahnbescheid), if they bother to go that far. Once you get the order, tell the court you object. That's it, it doesn't go further than that.
On youtube check out katzenjens, he made a few videos on the matter: http://www.katzenjens.de/abzockinfos.html [katzenjens.de] (German language, only). Here is a good one: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbZzRJm-3_4&feature=channel [youtube.com]
Re:Sublicensing? (Score:5, Informative)
The way almost all of these scams work is that the EULA is not on the copyrighted software, but on the download mechanism. They are charging her for use of their download service, not for use of OpenOffice.
It's nitpicky, but it's an important distinction, since the donwload service EULA does not modify or sublicense the OpenOffice LGPL.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:3, Informative)
In the UK, even if you agree to buy something online you have a seven day 'cooling off' period in which to cancel.
This is the Consumer Protection (Distance Selling) law. It now seems to have been adopted in Europe too, so maybe the German woman can use it.
It applies to any purchase at a distance, it was originally meant to protect against telephone salesmen talking people into signing up to stuff.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Protection_(Distance_Selling)_Regulations_2000 [wikipedia.org]
Apologies for the rambling nature of this comment, I'm quite drunk.
That's OK, you're British ;-)
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
Not quite. It is a crime to use your fake name and such, but unless the cost is stated very clearly on the page (and not just in line XYZ of the EULA or something like that) it counts as an attempt to mislead the customer, or as the heading said, tricking him into buying.
There have been a lot of sites like this (IQ test, friendship test blabla) and in pretty much all cases the court told them to shove it... The point is, those who run the sites know it and will most certainly never go to court.
If you want to get rid of them real quick have a lawyer answer the mail for you. Or go to the "Verbraucherzentrale", they will tell you what to write.
So it ain't THAT bad.
Re:Sublicensing? (Score:2, Informative)
By clicking "Yes", you agree to be bound by GPL v2.0 License....
Re:Can't return the download service (Score:2, Informative)
Cedega is not subject to the GPL, the BSD license is less restrictive, AND the company doesn't sell it under the "Wine" brand name, the principal is different.
This is about an for-profit effort selling an Open Source product and using the Open Source project's brand name in the marketing material.
Neither the GPL nor the BSD license grants trademark rights to sell a for-fee version of the product and using the same name and marketing so as to create consumer confusion.
In fact, many OSS licenses require your re-packaged or re-sold version to not use the original creator's trademarks. Firefox even displays the restrictions in the form of a EULA during installation.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:5, Informative)
"On one hand if you agree to a contract, then it's binding."
It's binding as long at it is legal. You have this even on the USA (as you already stated you cannot contract yourself into slavery): remember all those clauses the kind of "to the extent allowed by local laws" and "this clause being found unforceable doesn't void the rest of the contract". In Europe all these things go into the "abusive clause" field and are unforceable (of course that doesn't mean on party cannot try -specially telecoms are known for it, it only means that if you are prepared for a long years battle to go to the highest courts on the basis of principles for those lame 100 you will win 100% of times).
And then, in order to "agree to a contract" some contract is needed. A contract needs to be clear, legal and based on good faith. Of course what "clear, legal and based on good faith" does exactly mean is up to a judge to decide but using other's Trade Mark and hiding the fact that there are unexpected and up front undeclared costs involved doesn't usually fit on the definiton.
Re:What if she doesn't want to break the law? (Score:2, Informative)
A quick google search came up with several US companies that are pretty much doing the same thing, but they get your credit card or pay pal info before allowing you to download open office from them. One wants $49.95 a year!
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:3, Informative)
Plus, there is one special additional returns policy in Germany for anything done online or over the phone:
The contract can be canceled within 14 days by the customer, then from the laws point of view the contract did never happen. (Even if it was originally a valid offer, which this was most probably not anyway, since the price was not made absolutely clear beforehand.)
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:3, Informative)
In Germany you have 14 days in which you can return anything you bought online. In addition to that any offering that didn't make it obvious that you have to pay for it is void to begin with, having a 'please pay us 98 EUR' somewhere hidden deep in the fine print isn't a valid contract.
MOD PARENT DOWN INCORRECT INFORMATION (Score:1, Informative)
Real information how to handle this can be found here (in German):
http://forum.computerbetrug.de/allgemeines/54304-opendownload-de.html
Please mod all the uninformed clowns down who spread bullshit here.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:3, Informative)
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:1, Informative)
gp was modded up when parent posted to clarify
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:3, Informative)
It's in Sweden:
http://sv.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urkundsf [wikipedia.org]Ãrfalskning
With jail time up to 6 months or 2 years depending on how serious it is.
The wikipedia entry do mention that you can't be accused for it if the forgery is so lame that no-one would believe it to be true though, so I wonder if typing Donald Duck or something such would be safe?
Weird remark since an "electronical contract" so to speak will accept any submissions.
Re:Delete it & forget about it (Score:3, Informative)
She shouldn't forget about it, definitely not. She lives in the EU, so the Distance Selling Regulations apply. Under the terms of these regulations, she has 14 days after the purchase during which she may inform the vendor that she wishes to cancel the contract at no cost to her. She should take advantage of this.
IANAL, so talk to one before doing anything.