Do Nice Engineers Finish Last In Tough Times? 613
jammag writes "As the wave of pink slips is starting to resemble Robespierre and his guillotine, the maneuvering among tech professionals to hang on to their job is getting ugly. IT Management describes the inter-office competition between the manager of a server farm and the supervisor of networks and security. One was nice, giving his team members credit, taking responsibility when something went wrong. The other was a backstabber who spent plenty of time sucking up to the management. As the inevitable cuts came, who do you think hung on to their job?"
In the words of Malcolm Forbes... (Score:5, Interesting)
Being a backstabber doesn't work. (Score:5, Interesting)
Of course you can always find an anecdotal counterexample, but the one time I decided I wanted to get someone out of a management position that was interfering with my job, it wound up backfiring hugely (the situation was *worse* after I succeeded) and on a personal level it's something I regret to this day.
On the other hand, every time I've come into a job situation and behaved with honesty and integrity, it's worked out well for me. And I get to sleep at night.
So take your pick.
Re:Garbage rises (Score:4, Interesting)
The sad reality is that it's both- but for different types of garbage.
With capitalism, the liar rises regardless of whether or not times are tough.
With bureaucracy, the brownnoser rises regardless of whether or not times are tough.
Thus if you're an honest individual who doesn't give a shit what people think of you, you'll always end up unemployed.
Re:It's a fact of life... (Score:5, Interesting)
Hunh. That must explain why I'm living on the streets instead of in a nice house in a nice neighborhood. Oh, wait! No! I am living in the nice house. And I didn't stab anybody in the back to get it. Nor, for that matter, is my business acumen the reason I'm in the nice house - in fact, it's basically just good fortune.
I'm not saying that there's no value in hard work, or in any of the other things we do on the job. But I'm sufficiently ancient at this point to have seen a lot of comings and goings, and the fact is that prosperity and [insert name of business tactic here] are largely orthogonal. If you don't have any talent, sure, maybe being an asshole is your only hope. Or maybe you should just go do what you really want to do and stop screwing around in a job you aren't suited for.
Re:Jobs Aren't About Education, Skill, or Experien (Score:4, Interesting)
I hear this repeated over and over.
I'm sorry, but "networking" is not the ticket to success in a technical career. In a technical career, knowing your shit is simply far more important.
If you count "networking" as your most important skill, you probably work in management, sales, or some other NONtechnical position.
Re:You might want to think about something here (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree with parent, if the management is good enough, they should follow well enough to know who really deserve a promotion and who is just doing enough to have enough time to ask for a promotion 10 times a week... Sadly, there is very few employers who can do that...
OK, so here's an idea. Maybe manager Kelly, when she was approached by Doug and heard his case for staying on, should have requested a meeting with Stuart to hear his side of the story. She could have explained that she had a decision to make and that Doug had raised certain issues with regard to his performance.
I mean, what if Doug was out-and-out lying? And to take the word of a single subordinate as the basis for staffing decisions ... just, wow. Does this company not do annual performance reviews? I sense a certain amount of org-chart politics in this, but to my mind, for Kelly to initiate a layoff based on a single, closed-door meeting with a subordinate seems like very poor management, indeed.
Of course I don't know the real facts, but I agree with the grandparent ... this does not sound like the kind of company where I would like to work. I know it's tough times and all, but in tough times would you rather work at a company that's liable to fire you at any minute or at one that at least respects your contribution enough to not let subjective evaluations of your personality decide your future?
Re:In the words of Malcolm Forbes... (Score:5, Interesting)
Forbes was an idiot then, in a world of 6.5 billion people, there are at leas 6500 one-in-a-million geniuses out there,
And statistically less than 300 of them live in the US. Toss out those who are too young, old, lazy, socially inept, ill, incarcerated, or comatose to hold down a job and you probably have about 7 employable one-in-a-million geniuses in the US, and you can be pretty sure that they already have jobs.
Re:In the words of Malcolm Forbes... (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:If that's how they lay off people at your job.. (Score:5, Interesting)
Having been on a few sinking ships, I haven't found that to be the case. What I've seen, oddly, is the opposite. People get nicer once the realize there's no future in it for anyone. At that point, it becomes about who remembers you and how, and whether they can get you into wherever they land next.
At a certain point, it just becomes collecting your paycheck until its your turn. No point in being a dick about it.
Re:Work is overrated (Score:3, Interesting)
Advice from a nice guy: lie, cheat and steal (Score:3, Interesting)
I was in a contract with a great boss where I had to educate someone as a backup and knew he would eventually become my replacement. Now I could have stonewalled and tricked him, but being a professional I documented everything to a high-standard, walked him through and mentored him well. I figured I'd already proved my worth to the firm, and anyway jobs weren't that hard to find.
So took an pre-agreed holiday, came back and was told my contract was canceled. As it turns out, jobs are no longer easy to find.
So I'd never do that again. It sucks, but if you have to choose between "doing the right thing" and survival, always choose survival.
Re:why is deflationary a bad thing? (Score:2, Interesting)
but it is far harder to stay in such a deflationary loop than it is to stay in an inflationary loop. This is especially true when our leaders like the populace foolishly conflate the medium of exchange with the resources being exchanged. It leads to massive "stimulus" packages that enrich cronies and further impoverish the average person by misallocating labor.
It also leads to burning produce whilst people starve to create a false scarcity to prop up prices. perhaps if there hadn't been so much government intervention to drive up production of food for WWI, there wouldn't have been a perceived need to intervene again to "fix" the problem.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agricultural_Adjustment_Act [wikipedia.org]
And I can't find it online just now, but my high school us history book had a picture of an orange crop being burned during the depression.
Re:What? (Score:2, Interesting)
Figure that one out.
Re:Jobs Aren't About Education, Skill, or Experien (Score:4, Interesting)
This kind of reminds me when a dorky buddy of mine suddenly became an expert in "The Game". He went from tolerable dork to "call the cops" creepy in a matter of weeks amongst female company. I can imagine a similar technically proficient but socially mal-adjusted IT guy making a similar transformation when they try to apply their engineering problem solving skills to office politics.
I used to feel like this (Score:4, Interesting)
But think I started valuing *myself*.
Look, there's quite a difference between being assertive and being an ass. Being passive and being nice is also not the same.
Communication skills are very important in the modern company. I don't care who you are---the days of the lone wolf are long gone, if they ever truly happened in the first place.
Be willing to stand up for yourself. Treat others with respect, and take pride in your work. Make sure others know who you are and your value.
It's not backstabbing. It's healthy human interaction. And it'll lead to you having more respect higher up and among your peers.
The nice vs. mean question is a false dichotomy, and being strong doesn't have to imply you're an ass.
The power of accepting blame (Score:4, Interesting)
One of the things ascribed to the "nice guy" that is presumed to hurt them is that they take responsibility for failures.
A lot of organizations with political problems have a sort of "blame-oriented" culture. When something goes wrong, someone has to be blamed, and that person must be made to suffer. This is, of course, bad, because it focuses on punishing someone rather than solving the problem.
Sometimes in such an organization, you can actually gain power by accepting blame. When a problem is brought up and the group is obviously going on the hunt for a scapegoat, sometimes you can stand up and say "I'll take responsibility for that," define the problem as you see it, and spell out what you intend to do about it. This can be so shocking to the other people that they don't know what to do about it, and thus there's no punishment. This is particularly true if you do this in a context where it's clear that you're not actually to blame for the problem, you're just accepting responsibility for it anyway.
This can have several positive effects:
1) You are seen as someone who isn't afraid to stand up and be responsible, a leader.
2) You are seen as a force for positive action, a bringer of solutions.
3) You get to be in charge of whatever it is, even if you might not normally have been in charge of it. If you want to do so, you can expand your realm of authority in this manner.
Sometimes when you do this, one or more people who are particularly blame focused will notice you said you're "responsible", not "to blame", and start questioning you to determine if you actually caused the problem or someone else did (maybe someone who works for you) so they can try to find someone to blame and harm. When this happens, I say something like "The important thing here is not that we affix blame and punish someone, the important part is that we solve the problem for the organization so we can move on and stop suffering the consequences. If you want someone to blame, blame me. I care more about getting the job done than about my image." If they try to pursue it, it makes them look like a fool in front of everyone else. If they try to go after a member of my staff, I say something to the effect of "I am responsible for my team, so if this problem is their fault, it's my fault. If I feel that any member of my team is failing to perform adequately, I will take care of mentoring them, helping them, or firing them as necessary. It's not your responsibility, and none of your business. I don't tell you how to do your job, please stop interfering with mine." I've never had anyone stupid enough to be willing to push it beyond that.
You can probably get away with all of this, IF:
1) You are willing to be bold about it. Timidity will just get you stepped on.
2) You're high enough placed in the organization that upper management knows you.
3) You've already built some respect with some successes, so upper management knows that when you say you will do something, you mean it.
4) Most importantly, you MUST have a solution to propose IMMEDIATELY when you say you are going to take responsibility. That solution doesn't have to be comprehensive, you can propose to have particular people study the problem to determine what the next step is, but have SOMETHING to propose right away.
Re:Nice guys finish last (often) (Score:3, Interesting)
It's not about falling back to "some wussy, wimpy old self" it's about falling back to being "a real man with integrity and backbone", you just put on a bit more of an asshole exterior when trying to get them to fall for you. You need to act like you seriously doubt that they're worth your time, for some reason a lot of women still haven't figured out that just because a guy behaves like he's too good for them it doesn't say anything about how good he really is.
/Mikael
Re:You might want to think about something here (Score:2, Interesting)
Most people living in a state of near slavery is another debate all together, and one that I don't entirely disagree with. Worse yet is the slow slide into real slavery that we see happening regularly. Things like "Required Volunteering".
I would go with Stuart (Score:2, Interesting)
I know I am not the norm, I have had six jobs in my 15 years of real job experience. I just don't see sticking with a company unless it is worth it, heck call me disloyal. I really wouldn't call it that, if companies treated their employees the way they should, most people wouldn't become job gypsies, LOL
I recently graduated and trust me if I don't find a job I really want right off the bat, I will take something I have to take and keep looking for the "long term" job with a growth pattern and a decent salary. I did it during my college years and I will continue to do it until I find the right place for myself.
Nice everybody finishes last (Score:3, Interesting)
That's what being nice is -- finishing last. If you're an asshole and able to get away with it, people assume you're important -- at least more important than the people you're being an asshole to. And if those people let you get away with it, they are conceding that you're more important than them. Being an asshole all the time doesn't work (unless you really are the man on top), as if you're an asshole to someone who is more important and knows it, you'll be out on your ass. But being nice all the time is another way of saying "I'm on the bottom of the hierarchy, shit on me".
(what, cynical, me?)
Re:This is just bad management. (Score:3, Interesting)
I don't think bad management is all that prevalent. There is also no shortage of it either.
I think this is mostly in larger companies that can live with the inefficiency. If this happens in a small company, then that company will be dead in short order.
Anyhow this story is about a single instance. Hardly enough to draw out some statistical conslusions. I am sure it's happened in the past too and will continue to happen in the future.
Consider that some times being an Asshole and bossy are more important then technical competence. Think Drill Sargent.
They kiss managements ass, sort of an emperors wears no cloths deal. They tell management what they want to hear, where the more competent engineer is more accurate but may lack tact and tactics. I know I've walked in to that one a few times.
There is a sort of used car sales men skills required not to spook customers or investors.
For example, I had a friend who sold 1U servers, that were the best. When I was at some company and we needed about 100 of these servers, I recommended him as first choice.
While on the phone with purchasing, he started to go in to how he doesn't have the fans, and it will take x long to get them. Then something about the special screws. He gave them an honest of a 1 month delivery time.
He spooked management, "What's with this guy? He's not professional.- It sounds like it's risky that he may not come through"
So they ordered with Penguin Computing, instead. They promised 2 week delivery. Well 6 weeks later we get them, most aren't even assembled correctly. Like Internal serial ports were on case, but not plugged in to the MB. So we spend a hard day of opening every case to plug in that connector.
Personally I'd take the honest engineer, and listen to him whine about needing to get the right fans. This is far better then be told a load of bull from some sales guy that is willing get that order at any cost.
But who made the money? At the end of the day isn't that all that really matters?
If you say No, then you don't realize that who get's the money, get's to expand their business.
This is why Microsoft still dominates!
They will try to sell us on Vista no matter how crappy it is, and probably will succeed. With time we will forget how much crappier it is then XP or 2K.
Short term contract jobs (Score:2, Interesting)
As for the Anonymous guy who has a thorn in his side about IT pros calling themselves engineers, well true not everyone one of use could be considered that, but the good ones can. We are given problems every day that we need to "engineer solutions for."
Re:What? (Score:5, Interesting)
P.S.
I ran into this at work. I was given a completely unrealistic goal to create a schematic in ONE week, for a project that I knew nothing about. I worked 80 hours in that single week, missed the deadline (no surprise), was threatened by my boss "If you can't do the job, I'll find somebody else who can" to which I replied, "Okay." He suddenly backed down because he didn't have anybody else, and I completed the schematic.
Long story short, I got the job done in 1.5 weeks, but the management still wanted to blame someone, so my boss took a "me first" attitude like the Doug in the article. He told everyone I was a lousy engineer and bad-mouthed him (false, HE badmouthed me), and that it was my fault the schematic did not get done in one week's time. (The fault lies with whichever idiot created the schedule, not the engineer). Anyway I got laid off on January 5. The asshole boss got to keep his job, and I, the guy thrown into a project with only one week's notice, got axed.
Yeah. Being a nice guy at work, like dating, often means you finish last. You gotta be an ass if you want to score.
Re:Only the Meanest Engineers Survive Out There! (Score:5, Interesting)
The top boss was nutjob, constantly yelling at his people, belittling them and generally being an idiot. He was given a copy of the Jack Welch (the former CEO of GE) and in that book he talks about ranking his employees, and getting rid of the bottom 10% every year (the deadwood).
So of course around this time, sales went in the toilet, and there had to be layoffs. After 10+% of the employees were let go (which sucked for me the IT guy, because I knew it was coming and who they would be before it happened, but that's another story). The survivors were called to a Town Hall meeting to discuss the layoffs. Everything was going well with the Boss's speech. You know, crap like cut off the arm to save the patient. With less people we're all going to row harder to get to the finish line. Then the jaw dropper:
"I'm going to rank all of you, and post that list in the lunch room. You had better find someone above you on that list, get on their shoulders and push them down (using a motion like he's drowning someone in a pool)." We all were dumbfounded.
The first thing that went through my mind was: who's tires can I slash so they don't make it to work on time
I finally smartened up and got out of there.
Re:You might want to think about something here (Score:4, Interesting)
Something similar happened to me. Only that it was the other way around, a key worker quit because he couldn't work toegether with another person on the team (which, btw, nobody else really liked either). Said person had better suck-up ties with management, though, and soon the person that we all liked, loved and trusted quit (or rather, "was asked to leave because he upsets the team"). We followed. Including the CTO, CISO and a few other very important people (it was a company dealing with IT-security products and services, just to indicate why a simultanous quitting of CTO and CISO is not a good combination for it).
Fortunately for the company it in turn sucked up quite successfully to an important client and they still buy their product. Because, well, there ain't much of a product left now...
Re:What? (Score:5, Interesting)
"Engineer" predates locomotives. The first "engineers" were military engineers, who made siege engines. The second "engineers" were civil engineers (to distinguish them from the military ones); they built buildings. Other sorts of "engineers" came later.
The boss understands how the game is played (Score:3, Interesting)
Look after the boss' interests and he'll look after you.
Don't confuse the company's best interests with the boss' best interests.
Re:What? (Score:5, Interesting)
That's a leftover from when train engineers really were engineers. Coal fueled engines needed to be carefully regulated or they could explode.
As for the "Network Engineers" at least in Canada it's actually against the law to call yourself that. The engineering association in Canada put their collective feet down a few years ago about the whole MCSE thing. Microsoft of course pretends it didn't happen but just tells people to call themselves an MCSE and not spell out what it means.
Re:Only the Meanest Engineers Survive Out There! (Score:1, Interesting)
Sociopaths generally don't get along with other sociopaths since they don't *like* other people getting in their way. They want to be at the top, all on their own, not with another ruthless bastard using the hand up they gave them to turn around and knock them off the top spot.