Long-Term PC Preservation Project? 465
failcomm writes "I've been talking with my son's (middle-school) computer lab teacher about a 'time capsule' project. The school has a number of 'retirement age' PCs (5-6 years old — Dells, HPs, a couple of Compaqs), and we've been kicking around the idea of trying to preserve a working system and some media (CDs and/or DVDs), and locking them away to be preserved for some period of time (say 50 years); to be opened by students of the future. The goal would be to have instructions on how to unpack the system, plug it into the wall (we'll assume everyone is still using 110v US outlets), and get the system to boot. Also provide instructions on how to load the media and see it in action; whether it is photos or video or games or even student programs — whatever. So first, is this idea crazy? Second, how would we go about packing/preserving various components? Lastly, any suggestions on how to store it long term? (Remember, this is a school project, so we can't exactly just 'freeze it in carbonite'; practical advice would be appreciated.)"
I've thought about this (Score:2, Interesting)
The best bet would just be to include a laptop and a few solar chargers to power it. If the future world can't power a laptop with light for some reason... they don't deserve to look back into the past.
As for preservation (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm not sure how practical it will be for when it's opened, but it'll suffice for keeping the sucker preserved.
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Perhaps that mineral oil which is used to keep CRAYs cool might work? Maybe just get a barrel of that, drop all of the components in, and seal it up. I'm not sure how practical it will be for when it's opened, but it'll suffice for keeping the sucker preserved.
Mineral Oil works good for cooling, but it will eat through your components after a while, especially after 50 years. About the best thing you can do is seal it in the best vacuum possible. A lack of gas around the components does much better than forcing something in, be it air, liquid, etc.
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Is all that really going to be necessary? People pull old Trash-80's or whatever out of closets and get them to work, and that's been 15-20 years maybe. Assuming the storage is kept cool and dry, I can't see any reason why the hardware wouldn't be usable after 50 years. Maybe throw in some extra RAM and a cloned HD as a just in case (or just two PC's).
As far as power goes, surely standardized power is embedded well enough at this point that at the very least adapters would be available in 50 years. Think ab
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TRS-80s are far less susceptible to atomic-level deterioration (electron migration, etc.) than today's ICs. And I've had plenty of hardware crap out on me after less than 10 years, let alone 50.
Re:As for preservation (Score:4, Insightful)
Wouldn't the capacitors be an issue on a TV that old? It's pretty common for old tube amps and pre-amps to have all the capacitors replaced by the audiophiles that buy them on ebay.
I sold an old tube pre-amp, and the guy said that if they don't replace them outright they'll hook up lightbulbs in series and slowly power up the device, using the lights to verify if the electrolytes are still good.
Re:As for preservation (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:As for preservation (Score:5, Insightful)
lol i think you've missed the point of what the lightbulb does lol
The lightbulb acts as a current/voltage limiter. Picture this:
It's crude, but effective, and a trick electricians have been using for years.
(Caveat: the actual technical facts of the matter are somewhat more complicated than this, but given the quality of your comment I doubt you're capable of understanding them...)
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I've rented houses (that I moved out ASAP) that had the wiring from the 1890s/1900s still there, as well old fuse boxes (with those old twist fuses) that were hopelessly intertangled with new fuse boxes (for some reason they didn't rip everything out) and copper wiring intermeshed with aluminum wiring, and wires shielded with tar paper (
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It's actually 230V in the EU, not sure about anywhere else.
To get the same power, a higher voltage gives a lower current (P=IV). The lower current means wires don't have to be as thick (alternatively you can draw more power for the same thickness of wire).
A normal UK appliance is allowed up to 13A at 230V = 3kW. Stuff like vacuum cleaners and electric heaters might draw this much power.
Re:As for preservation (Score:4, Informative)
um 10 to 20 ha, try 200.
Also just so you know Every house wired in the USA has had 240 volt since the 70's. The average receptacle might be 110, but the mains coming in, every stove, and most electric heaters are all 240 volt. We get the best of both worlds. efficiency for high power draw items, and cord ends smaller than bricks. Also we have more than 3 receptacles in a room.
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The main advantage of 220/240v is that everyone else in Europe uses it. The main advantage of 100/110v is that everyone else in the US/Japan uses it.
Germany standardised on 220v and the US standardised on 110v. Everyone else pretty much followed one or the other. I don't think there was much thought in those days about what the optimum voltage might be.
Re:As for preservation (Score:5, Informative)
There was a lot of thought.
The US standardized at ~110V because that was what basically as high of a voltage as you could put through a ligthbulb at that time (higer voltage light bulbs have more delicate filiments, and therefor arn't as robust). Germany on the other hand standardized several years later, when better lightbulbs were available, so they standardized on a higher voltage which made more efficient use of wire (higher voltage lets you put more power through a given cross-section of wire).
Both made the best choice given the state of technology at the time.
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well, it shouldn't be that hard to switch domestic voltages. Japan is always pushing infrastructure upgrades, like switching from 4:3 to 5:3 widescreen, or from analog TV broadcasts to digital, or being the first to adopt the 3G WCDMA standard.
by including a mix of 240V and 100V in new buildings, and gradually adding 240V outlets to existing buildings, a country that replaces their electronics and appliances so frequently should be able to switch to a new voltage in less than a decade.
i mean, buying a trans
Re:As for preservation (Score:4, Insightful)
People pull old Trash-80's or whatever out of closets and get them to work, and that's been 15-20 years maybe. Assuming the storage is kept cool and dry, I can't see any reason why the hardware wouldn't be usable after 50 years.
The reason is tin whiskers. Electronic devices and components made before RoHS requirements will far outlast anything made since then.
In other words, it's highly unlikely that in 15-20 years, anyone will pull a working PS3 or Xbox 360 (or Core 2 Duo-based PC) out of the closet.
Re:As for preservation (Score:5, Informative)
Have a read at the problems faced in preserving the BBC Domesday project, and that's only about 20 years old.
Re:As for preservation (Score:5, Informative)
No, definitely no vacuum. The pressure difference will cause damage. If you think you need to provide more than a stable, not too humid climate, use an inert gas.
Most components will last 50 years without problems, but the BIOS battery won't. Modern hard disks with fluid dynamic bearings may be a problem. Software should be stored on low density magnetic and optical media: Tapes are still the longest lasting archival format that is directly readable by a computer. CDs are more likely to last 50 years than DVDs.
The best way to keep a system in working order is to use it every once in a while.
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Most every PC I've come across with a bad BIOS battery will run once you've configured the BIOS and will hold the settings until you turn it off again. The best bet would be pull the battery off the motherboard (to prevent corrosion when it leaks), pack the computer with a note on how to configure the BIOS and what kind of battery needed to retain the settings and the specifications for it. They'll probably be able to get a CR2032 in 50 years, as it's an extremely common type of battery, and even if they
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Where will they find a battery for the bios?
That's easy. Just include an extra!
Wait....oh....nevermind.
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mineral oil... drop all of the components in, and seal it up.
Beware, mineral oil as well as some other supposedly inert liquids can act as solvents leaching certain chemicals out of plastics or other components, causing breakdown. You have to be really careful what you use, especially for long term immersion.
I think for a "time capsule" you're better off just storing it in a sealed air container. If you want to get fancy maybe go for an inert CO2 or nitrogen atmosphere.
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It was Fluorinert [wikipedia.org], which is a fluorocarbon-based fluid - and about $200.00 a cup when I admin'd a Cray II back in 1988. Hardly "mineral oil" :-)
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You're assuming that in 50 years:
- the battery will still be able to hold a charge
- there will be no data loss on the magnetic media (hard drive)
- there will be no data loss on the optical media (CD rot [wikipedia.org])
- the soldered components will still work (tin whiskers [wikipedia.org])
- the display will still work (no idea about inactive LCD degradation)
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> You're assuming that in 50 years:
The capacitors have not dried out. Since they use a water based electrolyte, that could be the most critical point. Sometimes they dry out after just 2 years of normal use, due to the higher temperature during operation.
But the most important question would be: why? Do you really think that in 50 years anybody cares about a PC that was mediocre in the year 2000? Very few people get excited about punch cards, and that will be exactly how CDs will feel to someone used to
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But the most important question would be: why? Do you really think that in 50 years anybody cares about a PC that was mediocre in the year 2000?
Time capsules are intended to preserve history for the future. Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
Re:I've thought about this (Score:5, Funny)
Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.
So you're worried that if we don't do this someone 50 years from now will install Windows ME?
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they're just doing it for fun. jeez.
Re:I've thought about this (Score:5, Insightful)
Yeah, but personally relevant and educationally relevant are two different things. Punch cards are something that I would discuss as a historical aside in a high school computer science or programming or technology class, and I might trot some out just to show students how far we've come. That doesn't mean that I still use them to store data, or that I am a punch card fanatic.
Please look at this through the eyes of a teacher; the goal of this project is not to get students using old technology, but simply to give them some understanding of what their teachers had to learn on. I had a teacher in high school who had some old magnetic disks that apparently had to be immersed in a fluid. He showed those to me and some other interested students as novelties.
Imagine how cool it would be if your children or grandchildren could see what you had to live with, technology wise. Wouldn't that teach them something about history, or give them some understanding of how different our culture was compared to their culture? Essentially, is the goal of education to give a student some practical skills and then boot them out into the world, or do we want to give them a context for their skills?
This kind of activity is educationally relevant because it allows students to feel like they've contributed something to the world or done something cool. When it's unearthed it will be valuable because it gives their grandkids an understanding of what was technologically advanced in the past.
Re:I've thought about this (Score:4, Informative)
Yeah, because in the last 50 years, there have been massive changes to the voltage and frequency of electrical utilities. And why protocols? IP is well documented, and any changes would be as well. There haven't been massive library burnings in quite a while, so we should be safe. There have been very few changes in the last 50 years. There is some "quality" change, but the basics are the same. The microwave oven has taken over, and TVs are flatter. Gadgets are everywhere, but no ones that cause problems. Anyone that learned on a 50 year old car could drive a current one with no more than 30 seconds of training, if that.
Also CF Card (Score:2)
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Data on flash cards decay in about 5 years _maximum_. So good CDs are guaranteed to last much longer.
Flash isn't forever, either: ~10yrs (Score:2, Informative)
The information in flash memory is stored as electric charge which slowly dissipates. Last time I checked, it was recommended to refresh it periodically, or the information could be lost in as little as 10 years.
Re:Also CF Card (Score:5, Informative)
Archival DVD rated at 300 years. It might not last 300 years, but hopefully it'd last long enough for this time capsule.
http://www.smarthouse.com.au/Home_Office/Storage/U9P4F7L2 [smarthouse.com.au]
CD-R DVD-R media failure (Score:2)
I do not know the expected lifetime of standard CDs and DVDs, but I have heard several reports of recordable CDs and DVDs getting bit rot after just a couple of years.
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Re:CD-R DVD-R media failure (Score:5, Informative)
Definitely don't use recordable media that are dye-based or phase-change. If you can get the CDs or DVDs pressed professionally, do it - music CDs are made from durable polycarbonate with a layer of silvering applied on the top side, then covered over with lacquer or, preferably, another layer of polycarbonate.
Wrap the discs in paper, then vacuum-seal them in shrink wrap. Seal them in a padded sealed tyvec envelope. Label "Do not open until Christmas 2060" with a Sharpie.
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Last I checked (half a year ago or so), it was not possible to get professionally pressed discs in quantities less than about 100-200. If that's changed, I'd appreciate knowing (for family archival purposes).
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Distribute them as widely as possible. (Score:3, Interesting)
It would be better not to put them all in one place.
If you are going to get 200 CDs pressed, you'd do well to keep a few dozen of them in your capsule, and distribute the rest.
If it's a project at a school, insert a copy of the CD in the back of every copy of that year's yearbook. Make sure to send several copies of the yearbook with the CD insert to all the local libraries in the area. Chances are that will ensure that at least one of them will survive for 50 years. At least in my area, the libraries ha
Virtualization (Score:2, Insightful)
Virtualization gives an easier way to accomplish this (with the caveat of needing a platform able to host the virtualized platform).
You can easily snapshot systems, and have an OS image for each x years rather than a complete new platform each time. Doing this today, you could easily produce snapshots from DOS days up until current systems.
VMware would be easier to create all this with. But, open source Xen would probably be the better choice to ensure future availability.
Re:Virtualization (Score:4, Insightful)
I think you're missing the point of the project. There's far more to computing than operating system and software. If the point was to show where virtualization was now to people 50 years ago, your idea is great, but the point is to remind people 50 years from now what kinds of computers we had that the average person used.
How uncool would everything be if you opened up a time capsule from the 80s and found out that it consisted of a polaroid picture of everything people wanted to put into the time capsule?
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This is true. But, I would hope that unpacking an actual system that is authentic and plugging in the components would be quite an experience. But for all I know, 6-7th graders will be bored out of their skull. Invite their parents along to open it. I bet it'll be the big kids that really dig it.
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This is true. But, I would hope that unpacking an actual system that is authentic and plugging in the components would be quite an experience. But for all I know, 6-7th graders will be bored out of their skull. Invite their parents along to open it. I bet it'll be the big kids that really dig it.
I dunno. Would there be any point in a 2009 PC without a 2009 internet to use it with?
Way too many unknowns (Score:3, Funny)
boot sequence? Re:Way too many unknowns (Score:2)
Making someone go through the tedious boot-up sequence (50 years, Moore's Law, remember?) is a waste
I'm not convinced that boot times have followed Moore's law. It takes my newest computer significantly longer to boot up completely than did my old 286 in the days where everything ran in DOS.
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Even if you went to the effort of saying "The two leads need to be supplied with a sine-wave alternating current peaking at 115 Volts" you have no way of knowing that in 50 years they'll be using Volts, AC, two leads, or know what a sine-wave is.
Um, we're talking 50 years from now...not 500. Many of students who created the time capsule could even be the ones digging it up. There will be plenty of people who understand its power requirements. There will be plenty of people who even know how to operated the thing with proficiency.
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"Much better to give them code samples of your hello_world.c so they can laugh about how stuff was hard in the past."
From the desktop BASIC processor in my 1974 Math lab:
>10 print "Hello World"
>run
Hello World
>
Re:Way too many unknowns (Score:5, Funny)
You overestimate the power of the US education system.
Re:Way too many unknowns (Score:5, Insightful)
Pfft, more like 'Holy crap, this thing is fast! It boots in minutes, not hours! But where is the dna scanner that tells the government who the operator is?'.
Re:Way too many unknowns (Score:5, Funny)
I can hear it now: "It's been three seconds and still no "desktop", whatever that is, the damn thing is broken!"
Given what we know about human nature and trends in technology it's more likely to be "It's been three seconds and still no blowjob, are you sure this thing is a computer?"
in 50 years battery acid damage and bad caps may s (Score:3, Insightful)
In 50 years battery acid damage and bad caps may stop the systems from even booting. Bit rot may mess up the bios code as well.
EEPROM is the clincher (Score:5, Interesting)
Most of the EEPROMs used to store the BIOS code only have a rated data retention lifespan of 10 or 20 years. In 50 years, it would likely not even be able to boot.
But even should your EEPROM remain intact, the other problem is getting that hard drive spindle which has remained stationary for 50 years spinning again.
Don't Bother (Score:5, Funny)
It got damaged in a flood. Even if it hadn't it wouldn't matter. We just use this 20 year old time machine invented in 2039 to come back for our retro-gaming fix. It's a clunker compared to the new time machines, but it was cheap. Actually, probably cheaper than your P4 uses... AND it uses less power.
We actually save power by going back in time and using the past's power anyway. The future is AWESOME. Come join us soon!
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Get off my future lawn!
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I was just freaking out wondering who was using my slashdot account to post nonsense about time travel.
Then I got a call from my future self. I told me that fresh parsley will be the new Salmonella scare of 2009.
The primary problem with your idea (Score:5, Insightful)
NO electronics are designed to last 50 years. If you got basically all the moisture out of the storage facility, everything but the storage devices MIGHT last, IF the temperature were stable enough. And at the end, you'd have a hermetically sealed container full of poison because odds are that the nasty crap would have come out of some of the capacitors anyway, and the plastic would have been offgassing all of this time, and your time capsule would probably be declared a superfund site.
Moral of the story: shoot some digital video of some people using the computers, then pack them off to the recyclers. Whether the exercise is worthy is not really at issue; it's not really a feasible idea anyway. The cost of preserving the machines (are you going to have shielding capable of protecting digital magnetic media over that time scale?) coupled with the risk of the systems not working when you try to fire them up anyway makes the whole point moot for most schools (and most anyone else, too.)
preemptive correction just for the nerds (Score:3, Interesting)
No consumer electronics are designed to last 50 years. Unless you have been computing on a space probe, recycle the computers.
No consumer electronics last 50 years ?? (Score:2)
Re:The primary problem with your idea (Score:5, Interesting)
Maybe they weren't designed to last that long, but they do, anyway. There are plenty of Apple IIs and TRS-80's out there, still running just fine. I have a 30+-year-old computer, myself, that still works. Granted, it's not 50 years, but it's getting pretty close.
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Either way, I would have to think that in the last 20 years hardware manufacturers have figured out how to use materials more "sparingly." I wonder
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When one of today's computers is booted up 50 years from now, a few caps will probably need to be replaced, many of the plastics will be brittle, the silicon will probably be like new; but the fir
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I have a ~25 year old computer that still works. What will happen in the next 25 years that will cause it to fail?
It doesn't matter how long they were **designed** to last - what matters is how long they will realistically last.
Re:The primary problem with your idea (Score:5, Informative)
boron magically electromigrates or keeps on diffusing? Um, I have been doing ultra high reliability electronics for over 25 years and this is total news to me. Don't think so. I know of electronics in geostationary satellites still humming along over 20 years and still going strong. There probably is even older out there, but I wasn't involved, so I cant say.
Suggest:
I would put any and all data storage in multiple formats and multiple copies. Cover your bases.
Find a way to seal the system against moisture. (Airtight containers and Silica Gel packets inside.)
Provide lots of text based paper documenting the system, and all its hardware and software. (information printed on high quality paper)
Multiple disk drives that can be booted from would also be good.
As a side note, the 6800 microprocessor still gets made and used today and thats about 30 years old right now. I have both an Atwater Kent and a Crosley radio from 1928 and 1932 and both of them still run just fine. Not too shabby for 70 year old electronics!
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You apparently have no knowledge of deep-submicron VLSI. Regardless I did not say that the device magically fails at year 10, I said that it might nee
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During manufacturing Boron is diffused into selected regions of purified silicon (doping) to create the transistors....Most CMOS process technologies have anticipated lifespans of 5-10yrs.
Uhh.. I've had plenty of machines that are more than 10 years old that work just fine. I've got one machine that's been running continuously for 6 1/2 years (a few reboots, but no crashes). The motherboard is approaching 10 years old.
Several years ago I had an AMD 386-40, circa 1992. I ran it as my mail server until ma
Will they care? And avoid moisture. (Score:2, Informative)
1. The students won't care. They'll be concerned with whatever popular culture dominates in 2059, not with old tech. Except for the nerds.
2. If you do this, preserve other things as well. Preserve a copy of the newspaper from the Obama inauguration. (Provide instructions on how to open and read a paper newspaper.) Preserve whatever popular culture dominates in 2009. Preserve pictures of the school and letters from the students.
3. Think carefully about whether you'd really like to inflict Windows XP and Comp
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6. Do a hard copy printout of the BIOS. Its flash memory will have become erased in 50 years.
7. Dito for any BIOS in your video hardware
8. Provide a schematic of the PC so they can identify all the tantalum and electrolytic capacitors, and replace them with new equivalents.
9. Forgot it all. Put a packet of cigarettes in there instead. It will be fun rediscovering the habit again.
50 yrs is not that long (Score:5, Interesting)
In 50yrs I think you'd have more problem porting the video out than anything else. Remove the batteries too.
Why not store 3 complete systems in 3 entirely different ways. Hoping that one of them will survive intact. Or components from all three will have enough intact to make a complete system. Let's assume that whoever finds it, even in a century will be intelligent enough to turn it on. Unless this ends up being an Old Man in the Cave [imdb.com] sort of scenario. Then you've no hope anyway.
My uncle still fires up his Apple LISA every few months to do his accounting on it.
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My uncle still fires up his Apple LISA every few months to do his accounting on it.
Which is why he can still get it to fire up. 50 years with no power will probably condemn the capacitors to oblivion. Without proper attention to moisture the disk drive (hard and floppy) heads will have probably oxidized beyond usability. I have a circa 1992 386/20 that is still running but a shortwave radio of about the same time period is inoperative due to capacitors that crapped out since it sat idle for that same 15 yea
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> In 50yrs I think you'd have more problem porting the video out than anything else.
Maybe, but then maybe not. NTSC was defined in 1941, and current TVs are still compatible with the signal defined then. Yes, I know that things are changing: modulators are a thing of the past, and digital is the way to go. But still, compatibility has not been broken over nearly 70 years.
So do not underestimate the inertia of standards once defined. I would not be surprised if USB is around for a long long time, for exam
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> I would not be surprised if USB is around for a long long time
That's what was said about the RS232c interface, Parallel Printer Ports, PCMCIA slots, Firewire connectors, pc game inputs, VGA cables, AGP slots and Scuzzy interfaces not long ago.
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Most likely, the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply and motherboard will dry out and loose their capacitance. At that point the unit will not power up when power is applied.
10 years is probably the best that you can hope for considering the component quality .
Shorter time span? (Score:5, Insightful)
Instead of 50 years, make it 25 or 20. Then their kids can be in middle school and see the computer their folks used to use.
There are plenty of pc's made in 1984 that can still work fine.
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There are plenty of pc's made in 1984 that can still work fine.
..and nobody had to put them in a time capsule for them to work just fine - you could probably grab everything you need to get a 1984-era PC working off ebay today. Which makes this whole exercise seem a bit redundant.
You need to be well-organised (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:You need to be well-organised (Score:4, Insightful)
Another idea... don't put it in an actual capsule at all.
Climate controlled closet, visual inspection of the system yearly, boot test every three years. Also, every year or two, fresh burns of optical media.
As far as making sure it's ready for the future... (Score:5, Informative)
For long time storage, I would suggest taking apart the entire system and giving it a good cleaning to remove any dust, Also inspect all electrolytic capacitors for any leakage or damage, you don't want an out-of-box experience to have to include replacing all the capacitors (although it may end up needing it anyway) This will obviously include voiding the warranty on the power supply to clean it out properly (be careful of the capacitors inside as they could hold a deadly charge, even after 15 minutes if the internal resistors don't work correctly) and inspect it. You should remove things like the CMOS battery, usually a button lithium cr2032, which would leak and destroy circuits on the motherboard, or at least go dead, and you should also pack some spare parts and components with it (at least a spare motherboard, ram, cpu, power supply, optical drive, spare fans, expansion cards, etc) , along with the documentation for them, which might not be available then. Pack at least 2 hard drives, pre-loaded with all the software you want them to see, including iso's of the discs that you will include, as you don't know how long the cdrom/dvd media will actually last.. you might want to include a fully bootable flash drive or two with the software and os as well. Include a complete listing of the bios settings for when they do have to put a battery in... if you can, make a written writing with all the electrolytic capacitors values and voltages, as that might come in handy for later. Include as many operating systems as is possible, to give a flavor of what pc's used to be like and what used to run on them, make sure all the licensing information is both in paper and digital form for any piece of commercial software, as they may need it to run the software, even if the companies who made it are long out of business by then. if the pc uses a standard db15 for vga, you should leave a crt and a lcd if possible, and if it uses a dvi connection you should also leave a DVI-DB15 adapter. Make as many video output options as you can available in case things have changed....
Include a nice strong keyboard (like an old IBM Model M) along with a couple of the other keyboards you have (use different models and brands if possible), as the rubber membrane keyboards will likely not age very well. Include a ball and a optical mouse for snickers, and possibly a document on how each works...
Of my years of collecting old pc's, that's what I've always wished was done for me! =)
Get a netbook (Score:2)
pack away some back up parts (Score:2, Interesting)
a few extra motherboards, most necessarily
it won't get you to 100 years, but assuming you pack away 4, and 2 die in the first 30 years, it will get you past 50 years at least
and, with hard work, and assuming nonoverlap in what part failed, you could cannibale parts to get at least one still working for a very long time
besides, even if they completely stop making capacitors, past 150 years, and all the caps fail, a capacitor isn't exactly a difficult component to troubleshoot, understand, or even make
at 150
It'll be funny when if it did boot (Score:2, Funny)
Wait 50 years, unpack it and plug it in.... Then wait while it downloads 50 years worth of windows updates as it simultaneously gets infected with 50 years worth of viruses, worms and other nasties!
Also a cool economics class project (Score:3, Funny)
Slip in a paper share of MSFT in the time capsule with a note : can you imagine that in OUR time, people would pay seventeen BUCKS for that !!?
Cover the basics (Score:2)
Make sure you've got good watertight, light-proof packaging. Pack it with plenty of desiccant packs. Maybe some oxygen absorber packs too. A big heat-sealed moisture barrier bag would be a good start, if you can get one that big.
I'd be a little concerned about the electrolytic capacitors in the computer. There's probably not much you can do if they're going to leak - maybe you could fill the whole thing up with something absorbent that could be vacuumed up later, but I wouldn't count on it.
Also make sur
In consideration - Historical Archivist (Score:5, Insightful)
After glancing at many of the nay-sayers and upon this posting, I'd like to remind everyone that very few common instruments of man have been created to endure beyond the life of their users, and quite often they are a joy to be discovered, even if the most basic of happenstances occurs to keep them somewhat preserved.
Many solid state electronics last just fine for decades, nestled in their Styrofoam enclosures. I have personally seen a 1981 KayComp power up after being stashed under a desk for 25 years. I have little doubt it could have happily lasted another 25 down there. . . mercury and plastics gassing away.
The important thing is to offer reasonable protection and documentation. Your Media is going to be the first thing to go. . . so try and document how the media would have worked "IF" it works. Use Acid Free Mylar where possible to keep paper and media from reacting as much with the environment. Take reasonable steps to make sure the computers are packed away from light, (UV hasten the decomposition of plastics), dirt and moisture. Make sure they can be accessed without being damaged and create a reasonable storage scheme that is organized, minimal and well documented.
Essentially, do your best. Even if they don't power up in 50 years because they won't accept the wireless transmission of neo-voltage power used in that day and age, they will be marvels to students of that day. And people may figure out new pieces to apply to their lives in the future based on where we were going today. Also, if one "teacher" or child who has yet to be born, wants it bad enough, they'll figure out how to make them work, or have enough data from the specimens you try to preserve to make a model in their modern day.
Afterall, if I could see just pieces of something like Babbage's difference engine, it's a wonderful experience, even if it doesn't have any punch cards to fully work.
good luck
-Scribe of Argos
Re: (Score:2)
OH yeah, while they are at it, they can include a stone with three languages chiseled onto it so researchers in 50 YEARS can decipher the primitive script in the manuals. Yeah, that's the ticket.
Sure, we still know how to use shit from 50 years ago, but you never know about 50 years from now.
It's only 50 years people. Pull the batteries, throw in a copy on all available media, box the shit up in 'airtight' containers, pump in helium or nitrogen, then box that up, and stick in in a closet somewhere. It's
Re: (Score:2)
I have personally seen a 1981 KayComp power up after being stashed under a desk for 25 years.
I think you got lucky. A coworker brought in a Kaypro II a couple of years ago that had hardly been used and stored in his father's garage. He fired it up and let it run for about a hour. Then there was a loud pop, a shower of sparks and smoke rolled out of it. One of the capacitors had blown a hole right through the power supply's circuit board.
Capacitors are your enemy (Score:5, Informative)
The electrolytic capacitors are going to dry out in 50 years and will cease to function. There's a chance they will damage other components when the power supply is powered up again. I've seen it happen with equipment that is less than 25 years old. I don't think there is any known solution to this problem.
I'm currently restoring a 50 year old stereo receiver (Harmon Kardon TA230) and the electrolytics are almost completely gone. Everything else is in excellent shape; the resistors, coils, tubes, even the lamps test good but the caps are all shot. This receiver has a old style transformer power supply, so I can bring the voltage up slowly using a Variac for testing. Your computers are going to have switching power supplies which will not like having a lower voltages applied to them so that's not an option.
I honestly have my doubts that much from this era will survive 50 years. It's all made as quickly and as cheaply as possible with the expectation that it will be replaced in 3 or 4 years.
I currently have an Apple ][ that no longer can read its boot disks, a PC XT that doesn't always recognize one of its ST-506 drives and a few months ago I went through my Amiga disks and found that most of them were no longer readable. All of these are far less than 50 years old and have been stored carefully and well cared for.
However, my AIM-65 made in 1977 is still able to read data from my ASR 33's paper tape reader, which is 45 years old and still working fine.
Yeah, my wife hates me for keeping all this junk.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
I agree about caps.
I once worked at a place that had dumb terminals that were going on five years old that were seriously flaky because of the capacitors. I managed to fix the situation by telling the users that when they turned off the terminal at the end of the day, they should set the entire thing upside down. The idea was to use gravity to redistribute enough of the electrolyte so that the dielectric performance was improved. It worked like a charm, although I got a unfortunate reputation for being
Preservation (Score:4, Informative)
Northeast Document Conservation Center [nedcc.org] is another good resource with guidance pertaining to specific types of materials.
NIST's PDF guide Care and Handling of CDs and DVDs [nist.gov] contains best-practices for optical media storage/handling.
one word of advice... BOOM! (Score:2)
that's what the electrolytic capacitors in the power supply and on the motherboard and plug-in cards will do, go boom.
in the case of old tube equipment, there are two schools of thought on this.
the preservationist school says bring the unit up slowly on a Variac to reform those capacitors that are not fully dried out, say, over 12 to 24 hours. then test the caps, and anything failing needs replacement. issues with your plan are no exact replacements, SMT desoldering and resoldering, etc.
the functionalists
One label is enough for everyone (Score:2, Funny)
The students of the future will figure out the rest no matter how the education system will have been rotten.
Not gonna work.... (Score:2)
Unless you store the thing in a vacuum, some things just aren't gonna last 50 years, and if it works at all when they fire it up it won't work very long. In particular, the grease in the drive's sealed bearing is going to oxidize and harden; the same would happen even quicker to the exposed grease in the DVD drive. You might solve the former problem with an SSD, but I doubt any obsolete school PCs are going to have those. You might be able to leave instructions how to disassemble and re-lube the optical
Why? (Score:2, Insightful)
I couldn't care less about the computers from 10 years ago, let alone any monsters from the dawn of computing.
You may have fond memories of today's technology (probably because you have an irrational attachment after seeing your son grow up with it) - but I have absolutely no expectation that kids in 50 years will care about today's computers.
Assuming your preservation works, this is the reaction that I would expect:
1. Anger at being forced to play with this outdated stuff for a class project.
2. Laughter at
It'll take some reliability engineering... (Score:5, Informative)
You will have to replace every single electrolytic capacitor (in everything - mainboard, PSU, every drive, monitor, mouse, keyboard and speaker amp) with solid-state versions. Electrolytics dry out and it's very unlikely that anyone other than a computer historian would think of this before powering the computer up. Altair 8800s and Imsai 8080s from the late 1970s are now to the point that their power supplies and electrolytics must be replaced for them to work reliably - don't expect your machine to fare any better.
It's also a safe assumption that the lubrication in any rotating media drive will be gone by 2060 - not sure how to deal with that other than providing lube in a hermetically sealed package along with instructions to disassemble the CD drive and apply it.
How are you going to have your data last? Tapes and hard drives will demagnetize by 2060. Flash may have a prayer; Your best bet is to get some extremely long-lasting batteries and interface a microcontroller with a plugged-in thumb drive. Store the data along with error-correction codes on the drive. Have the system wake up every ten or twenty years and "scrub" the drive, reading every block and writing it back. Do the same with the system's bios EEPROM - the system will be useless if that gets killed by a cosmic ray. You should also pay to have data CDs gold-mastered - redundancy is the only way to go here.
The display is another problem. The only technology I'd really trust to just work without needing any repair is an LED display; LEDs can run continuously for decades. After the LEDs, a CRT is probably the best bet (despite a decent one having hundreds of precision electrolytics that'll need replacing) - After all, we've got examples of working CRTs from the 50s and 60s. Newer technologies haven't been around long enough to prove themselves yet.
Get a corrosion resistant, hermetically sealed package for the whole kit and kaboodle and flood it with a dense inert gas like SF6 to keep anything from growing. Thoroughly sterilize every square millimeter with a hard UV light just to be safe. Put the HDD in its own sealed bag full of nitrogen if you include one.
For power, your best bet is probably a primary battery (Mg-Cu) with seperately-stored electrolyte feeding an inverter - The shelf-life is "forever until mixed," at which point the machine will probably have a few hours of power depending on how much you include.
Assume that the people who recover the device will still speak your local language and have libraries where they can look up terms such as volt/byte/etc. If they can't, I doubt there will be enough of civilization left to care about some artifact from before The Fall. I think that it will take far more time and money than you're prepared to casually expend if you want to entomb a computer and have any reasonable probability of it turning on and actually working after 5 decades alone, rather than just popping a PSU capacitor or being a dead relic.
Go 50 years the other way (Score:5, Interesting)
So much of the experience of a current "computer" has nothing to do with the hardware, it's the content. So the virtualization ideas, etc have some merit.
50 years from now, how "cool" is old hardware going to be? Not very I expect. They will have better cheaper computers.
IMHO, you'd be better off including lots of pictures and printed material that will be usable, toss in some hw too, even if it won't work. In the end, I suspect an old yearbook will be more interesting than a computer.
Meh, that's just my 2 cents worth.
Ohh! (Score:3, Funny)
Store copies of the Duke Nukem series on various forms of media and store it with it. Someone will throw it up on the then-ebay and a geek will buy it, the geek being compelled to play the prequels to Duke Nukem Forever the way they were meant to be played.
Re: (Score:2)
Only 44 more years to go!
Re: (Score:3)
That would make it a serious pain in the ass to do time calculations.
Re:Not optical media (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't hard drives decay quickly if unused?
Also, you might want a cracked version of windows, Microsoft probably won't have the activation servers running in 50 years.