How To Handle Corporate Blackmail? 675
An anonymous reader writes "I have been in a software engineering position at a large company for approximately seven years. Recently, for a variety of reasons, I accepted a new job working for a local software company. I have given my employer three weeks' notice, instead of the standard two, as a courtesy.
In return, it has been implied that, in spite my record of above-average performance appraisals and promotions, I will be marked as leaving the company 'on bad terms' if I refuse to extend my departure date further. With only three weeks remaining, I am hesitant to rock the boat by contacting our HR department, but this concerns me and seems like an extremely unethical practice. I live in an 'at-will' employment state, so I know that they have no legal recourse to keep me. I am concerned about the references they could give in the future; having spent a large majority of my career at this company, I will be dependent on them for references to verify my career experience.
Has anyone ever run into this kind of situation before?"
They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:4, Informative)
Very few companies will do anything other than confirm that you worked during period X. Otherwise they are opening themselves up to all kinds of legal trouble.
Check state laws (Score:2, Informative)
There will be no recommendation. (Score:2, Informative)
Don't worry about your recommendation. All a large company will do is confirm that you were employed.
Just go (Score:5, Informative)
If that's the kind of people they are, they'll slag you off no matter how long you stay.
Make sure to keep any copies of performance reviews, etc., but don't give in to that kind of bullshit. Probably won't matter in the long run, anyway - if they're run by assholes like that, they'll be out of business in a few years.
Re:Definitely bring it to HR (Score:4, Informative)
there is no law saying the references you provide have to be in your direct management chain.
That's true, but there are a couple of gotchas. First, the folks in your direct management chain will (typically if not necessarily appropriately) carry a lot more weight with the hiring managers than your peers. Second, at least at my company, there are company policies regarding (and sometimes preventing) official references given from people that you don't have a solid-line connection to on the org chart. Dotted-line connections and peers may give personal opinions on the person they're asked about, but could face disciplinary action if they give professional opinions that may be inferred as company endorsements.
I've always had the opposite "problem"... (Score:2, Informative)
Pretty much everywhere I've worked, I've either been escorted out immediately or within 2 weeks when I've given notice in the past. In fact, for the most part, even if I've offered more time in order to train whatever person is there to handle the work I did, they haven't taken me up on it. Of course, they call 2 weeks after I'm gone with a ton of questions and requests for free tech support, at which point I give them my hourly bill rate and wish them the best.
Never go there again. (Score:5, Informative)
Leave immediately and never go back.
Contact an employment lawyer, and have them write a "lawyer letter" along the lines of "In response to your threat to provide unfavorable references unless our client agreed not to leave your employment on (date), our client is leaving your employment immediately. Any action on your part to defame the character of our client will be dealt with appropriately". Should cost you about $100.
One of the standard legal services is writing such letters. Basically, you can pay a lawyer to write what you want in legal language and send it on the lawyer's letterhead for a modest fee. This is useful when faced with annoying threats or recalcitrant vendors.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:5, Informative)
You MAY wish to obtain copies of your reviews and other praises prior to leaving the company.
I second this. Remember that you have access to your personnel file. Make a copy.
Anonymous Coward (Score:1, Informative)
Carry a tape recorder, and get them to threaten you again. Also return the favor, and tell others what these dirtbags are up to.
Re:Call in sick, now (Score:3, Informative)
I was going to suggest burning any leave you have accrued as your "fourth week," but getting something on file with HR and making a few bridges with colleagues to get you future good recommendations is probably the better plan.
Also, CYA - export your email files, now, to a USB stick/CD/whatever and take that offsite. Set up a cc/forward rule for all email post-export, and take any other relevant docs (signed hardcopies of previous performance reviews, for example) offsite -- best to CYA in case you get escorted out ahead of schedule.
Since you work in tech, you probably don't have a union. They could've helped with this.
Rely on coworkers, not managers. (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Having had this done to myself... (Score:4, Informative)
Depending on where you live, recording a conversation without letting the other party know that it's being recorded might be illegal. If you decide to follow the parent comment's advice, you should probably check into that, and if necessary let the other party know that the conversation is being recorded.
I'd try to get it on paper somehow.
Get out now (Score:3, Informative)
I agree with the other posters who said to get out now.
The worst thing you can do is to start off with your new employer by delaying your start date.
Three weeks is more than enough to be professional about it all, even if the company you're currently at does not reciprocate.
Go to HR and report the manager who threatened you. Ask for clarification: "Is this standard company policy? Are you going to allow it?" Most likely, they will speak to the manager and tell him to back off. Even if HR encourages this sort of behavior normally, they'll likely discourage it in the case of the person who confronts them on it. If they don't encourage it, then you're doing the company a favor by reporting the manager.
Re:Call in sick, now (Score:2, Informative)
Also, CYA - export your email files, now, to a USB stick/CD/whatever and take that offsite. Set up a cc/forward rule for all email post-export, and take any other relevant docs (signed hardcopies of previous performance reviews, for example) offsite -- best to CYA in case you get escorted out ahead of schedule.
That is very risky since most companies set up rules that say that they own anything you write, send, create, etc at work. If you're leaving the company, getting caught exporting company information could get you into big trouble.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:3, Informative)
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:3, Informative)
Otherwise they are opening themselves up to all kinds of legal trouble.
They're right, it's a hollow threat. And a really strange reaction. Document the discussions. Names, dates. places. I use Tiddlywiki [tiddlywiki.com] for that kind of thing. It date stamps everything and displays it all in a nice time line. Keep copies of your performance evals. There's no win in this for them.
If you don't want to raise this issue to HR now, then you'll be left contesting any negative reviews are after you leave. I'd document it to HR now, but you're closer to the situation. I went through a very similar situation at one job a while ago. Documentation is your friend.
My opinion is they're bluffing. And one that's both petty and stupid. No backup plan for losing a key developer? If that represents the caliber of your IT management, I should send them a card.
Re:Definitely bring it to HR (Score:1, Informative)
The other gotcha is that if the direct-line management keeps pulling this kind of bullshit, they won't be there long enough to verify anybody's employment record !
Kind of tough for a potential employer to call a manager who's "no longer with the company".
As for submitting the names of peers or other folks who aren't direct management, there can be exceptions to that rule of thumb. One might be the case where a "peer" also left for a significant promotion with another company - a competitor would be even sweeter. I'm now retired, but I know of a couple of folks who weren't in my specific group (QA) but were lead development engineers who are now senior management with another (and much more successful) company.
Yep, make sure you have hard copies of your entire employment file before you leave. And, in fact, if at all possible, have that request time-stamped (as well as its fulfillment) so that anything added afterwards will be appropriately flagged. You might also want to see if you can document your pay history; a real pack-rat would retain all paystubs Just In Case. However, your W-2s might suffice, but contemporaneous formal letters from HR (if that's how it was done) would be nice.
Good Luck...
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:2, Informative)
I work at a law firm. Our policy is very clear and we had to sign it. Only HR can field previous employee questions. All personell are to forward all calls regarding a previous employee to HR. HR will ONLY verify the previous employment dates. Nothing more, not even of the person would be considered for rehire. Individuals at our company can be used as personal references but not using the companies contact information, you would have to use your personal phone, email etc..
Any boss or employer that actually thinks he/she is getting useful information from the previous employer is stupid. You are calling Joe random and you will get a random answer. For all you know, the person you called had an affair with the employees wife. The person may be new himself and wants to bring in his guy and let the employee go. There are thousands of situations that could go either way and none of them are equal to a good representation of the employee.
Been there. (Score:1, Informative)
I had a similar issue.
I left a position where I had performed above and beyond my entire stay at the company, and my boss knew it. When I gave my notice he:
1. First offered to double my salary.
2. Said he would ruin me professionally.
3. Said he would sue me.
4. Said he would kill me.
I knew there was no merit to any of the four, so I took my leave. When interviewing in the future, I explained in minimalistic details that I preferred not to have the new companies contact the old one. I do not recommend this, but I didn't know what to do at the time (he was the owner and HR department). I found that I made the most progress with companies that put there potential programmers through rigorous person-to-person, technical questioning. I ended up landing another job that did actually pay twice my salary and have lived happily ever after since then.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Informative)
Just make sure they pay for that mile. As in, the contractor rate is 10x the salary rate. See how much they really want to keep you.
As to the question in the original article- I've never had a job last more than 5 years, and I left that employer on REALLY bad terms. I've found that two things are true with respect to long term jobs and references:
1. You can always find somebody outside your chain of command that you did a favor for once who is grateful enough to be a reference, even if they had nothing more to do with your department.
2. Nobody bothers with references further back than the last job anyway.
So therefore, I wouldn't worry about it- get good references from the people you helped, fuck HR, and tell them that if they want you past X date, it'll be $1000/hr.
Re:Check state laws (Score:3, Informative)
In Texas, it's the other way around... [state.tx.us]
As long as you don't lie about the ex-employee, you appear to be covered legally.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:1, Informative)
Wrong.
Most employers will say great things about their former employees if they liked them, because most people would not take a former employer to court for saying positive things about you. Aside from that, if your former employer just says "yes he/she showed up to work and did what was expected" then it's basically a tongue in cheek way of saying "i wouldn't hire them again" and it's understood as that across the industry.
Re:I concur (Score:2, Informative)
Nope, they can fire you right now, for any reason, at any time, in any US jurisdiction that I am familiar with, unless you have a contract to the contrary. That's what 'at will' employment means. This is true for the US, other countries' laws differ.
Re:I concur (Score:2, Informative)
Re:contractor position? (Score:2, Informative)
As long as his contracting period is less than 60 days, he can elect not to take COBRA and then retroactively take it and get full benefits if he needs it.
So if he falls down the stairs and breaks both legs on the 57th day after his benefits are terminated, he can notify his plan administrator on the 58th day that he wants COBRA, submit a check for the premium difference, and his bills from the previous day's fall will be covered.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:4, Informative)
False. The laws vary wildly from state to state. Where I live in California, all parties being recorded must be aware of the recording.
Re:contractor position? (Score:1, Informative)
For that reason most corporations say nothing, except to confirm "yes this guy worked here starting ____ and ending ____". They don't want to get sued so they avoid saying anything negative. I would not be worried.
That is exactly the position my company takes. In fact, if one of our employees says more than that they can be disciplined.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Informative)
I'm not sure what world you live in, but here in the real world car insurance is not for your car, but for the damage you inflict on others. That insurance is there to keep you from spending the rest of your life paying off that debt you incurred because you hit a bicyclist and caused permanent injury.
The same goes for health insurance: if you hit a tree tomorrow with your car, break a few bones and rupture your kidney, you could very easily be looking at a 6-figure hospital bill.
Re:contractor position? (Score:4, Informative)
You won't get it in writing from them, but I doubt you'd need it.
Just go straight to HR and explain that you feel your boss is implying blackmail. Write up these suspicions in a letter and hand it to them so they have a nice neat copy to review...i.e you're holding onto an original.
That should give you some piece of mind, giving you a bad referral would be an incredible risk for them at that point, it's just now worth it to try to pressure you.
But most companies don't even give referrals. Not even good ones(in case you turn out to suck at your new job and the new company blames the previous company for a misleading referral). Nowadays you just get start of employment, end of employment, and pay level from a reference.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Informative)
If my company fired me I'd get way more than three week's pay in the form of a severance package. Really it doesn't seem fair to the company - I doubt they could replace me as quickly as I could replace them.
If it's not written into a contract, and even then it may have a stipulation that you couldn't have been fired for cause, then you may not get anything.
The thread starter should go to HR, tell HR what is up (send them an e-mail and bcc home), keep things documented (even writing names, dates & statements down). And then say "I don't think I can work in a hostile work-place and my manager made it hostile. Sorry I gotta leave early." Also tell HR "Honestly, I was leaving on good terms but now I am contacting my lawyer to cover myself. If i find the company bad mouths me I am going to sue". The manager, if the company is large enough, may get fired himself.
References (slightly OT) (Score:5, Informative)
Actually, the best reference I got from a former employer started out as sounding negative:
New company HR: "What was geobeck like as an employee?"
Former supervisor: "He was lazy."
New company HR: "Um... really?"
Former supervisor: "Oh yeah, definitely. If he had an inefficient process he had to do over and over again, he'd do everything he could to make it more efficient so he wouldn't have to do as much work."
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Informative)
In my case, my really bad terms I WAS the BOFH, and it was management above me that concocted a set of files to "prove" somehow I never slept, was always at work, and was visiting a new website every 2.5 seconds from the firewall logs.
And yet still I had 10 reference letters from outside of my chain of command who were perfectly happy with the job I did for them and would recommend me in the future.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Informative)
>>>here in the real world car insurance is not for your car, but for the damage you inflict on others.
You're wrong. It's both. Insurance is available for both the car and the damage to other. In my case, I insure the other guy, but I do not insure my car. Which is what I said the first time: "Why spend $2000 a year insuring my car?" Please read more carefully before responding. Thanks. :-)
Since I don't insure my car, my rate is only $300 a year; I'm saving around 1700 dollars. It's a hell of a lot cheaper to pay any damage as it happens (or just buy a whole car), rather than give it to the wealthy insurance CEOs.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Informative)
For me every time I've put in my two weeks I've been told not to bother showing back up.
I guess I had some angry bosses. What really ticks me off is that I recently discovered that my state has a law that says basically if you fire someone after they put in their two weeks you have to pay them for two weeks. So basically I got ripped off.
Re:You need to get out more... (Score:3, Informative)
Ask more PCPs, specialists what their rates are for paying cash. You'll often find it's a half, or usually a third of what they bill insurance. My wife gets chiro. To pay out of pocket? $45. With insurance, $30 copay on a $140 bill to insurance (and yes, I know that the insurer doesn't pay that full amount, it's usually negotiated down, in this care, probably to $100) - that money is still coming from you, just amortized. It's a fucking racket where you are bent over and smacked, hard, for the "privilege" of amortizing your healthcare. Here's another hint: why do most healthcare plans not cover preventative medicine? Show me a single health insurance policy in the US that covers gym membership, but not weight loss surgery, rather than the other way around.
It doesn't cost $140 for my wife to get chiro. It didn't cost the ER $5,000 to treat your son, but they are so accustomed to the gravy train that they'll do anything to claim it does.
Re:Don't count on HR (Score:4, Informative)
Oh God dude, NO HR department person is on your side. Anywhere. Start with that assumption and you'll get along just fine.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Informative)
This is illegal in some states, including California. While many (most?) states require only one party to a conversation give permission for a recording, Some states require all parties to give consent.