How To Handle Corporate Blackmail? 675
An anonymous reader writes "I have been in a software engineering position at a large company for approximately seven years. Recently, for a variety of reasons, I accepted a new job working for a local software company. I have given my employer three weeks' notice, instead of the standard two, as a courtesy.
In return, it has been implied that, in spite my record of above-average performance appraisals and promotions, I will be marked as leaving the company 'on bad terms' if I refuse to extend my departure date further. With only three weeks remaining, I am hesitant to rock the boat by contacting our HR department, but this concerns me and seems like an extremely unethical practice. I live in an 'at-will' employment state, so I know that they have no legal recourse to keep me. I am concerned about the references they could give in the future; having spent a large majority of my career at this company, I will be dependent on them for references to verify my career experience.
Has anyone ever run into this kind of situation before?"
Definitely bring it to HR (Score:5, Insightful)
As for which references you choose, if you've been working there as many years as you say then there are probably lots of colleagues who can vouch for your performance on projects where you've worked together
Leave now (Score:5, Insightful)
Call in sick, now (Score:4, Insightful)
Negative references aren't the nightmare you might think them to be. Few companies will call former employers as the reply will be very generic or just plain misleading.
Let them rot, I say.
Action - Reaction (Score:2, Insightful)
One company I worked for marked me 'Do not rehire' when I refused to extend my notice. Which is weird since I gave them the same notice I received when they terminated my contract the first time I worked there (2 weeks).
Walk. (Score:5, Insightful)
Most common advice (Score:5, Insightful)
Remember: get everything in writing and recorded. That includes statements and discussions about this "you need to extend your leave or we might not be so friendly". In an extreme case only, I would suggest stating that you are recording all conversations as is your privilege, and then do so (say with a digital camera or something). Refuse to have conversations that do not have other people with you, and absolutely refuse to have a 2v1 scenario (2 management plus you)...that is quite deliberate as a legal maneuver for workplaces so they can choose what to deny/accept as fact.
I'd be calling the ACLU among other places and start talking to a lawyer and getting advice in case they do pull something. I think you just found your sign of a bad employer.
Either way, get more info. This just reeks of "not enough info".
Corporate Blackmail (Score:4, Insightful)
In my situation, it was a smaller company (50 employees, give or take), and it came from the top. I ended up pulling my contract and backing the employer down, simply by pointing out that my contract required 30 days of notice, and I provided more than that. I had also let them know I was looking before I found a new employer, and already had a glowing letter of recommendation from the company, so I had proof that any negative feedback was biased and silly compared to the official recommendation. Did you provide your notice in written format, and keep a copy? Did you sign a contract when you started?
Dumb "thinkforyourself" tag (Score:5, Insightful)
Three weeks schmee weeks (Score:5, Insightful)
With only three weeks remaining, I am hesitant to rock the boat by contacting our HR department
Think of it less as "rocking the boat" and more as "making it clear that blackmail will not work".
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:5, Insightful)
This is exactly right. There are quite a few precedents regarding employers doing anything other than confirming objective information in regards to an employment inquiry.
As an aside, it is quite possible that no one above your manager (presuming it was he/she that threatened you) is aware of this stupid intimidation tactic.
You MAY wish to obtain copies of your reviews and other praises prior to leaving the company.
Re:Definitely bring it to HR (Score:4, Insightful)
Would you be willing, and would your current employer be willing, to stay on a few weeks longer as a contractor at a higher pay rate? Would your new employer allow you to change your start date?
which I think you might offer to your, soon to be ex, employers. Good luck with the new job...
Leave sooner. (Score:5, Insightful)
Leave sooner.
They have threatened you and have created a hostile work environment. No reason to 'suck it up'. Just leave. Feel free to suggest to them that if you even hear a hint that they badmouthed you to any future employer, or potential employer that you will seek compensation.
What I would do (Score:3, Insightful)
I would contact my future employer and notify them of what my current employer is doing. If they are understanding of the situation I would quit immediately. For future jobs refer to the new company and have them vouch that the first company tried to blackmail you.
You don't need a reference from current employer (Score:3, Insightful)
You don't need a reference from your current employer if you already have accepted another position. So what are you worried about? Seriously.
The more crap you put up with, the more crap you get. If you let this employer intimidate you, prepare to be a doormat in your next job, too.
How exactly you want to handle your departure depends on the kind of person you want to be. Ignore the threat, give an angry counter-demand, sit down with your boss and try to talk about it like reasonable people, ask HR to mediate, hire a lawyer... you have lots of options. Do whatever will be best for your self-respect.
Re:Leave now (Score:5, Insightful)
This was my initial thought, but ultimately any enjoyment you get from knowing you made life harder for your old company is likely to be short lived. However unlikely it is that this will come back to haunt you there just isn't a compelling reason to risk it.
I would however ensure you get a copy of anything and everything the company has said about you from past appraisals etc, and I would certainly suggest formally bringing this issue up with HR.
Talk to HR and only use HR as a reference (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm assuming this is your manager making the threat and there is a separate HR department. If so then go to HR with your concern and only provide the HR person as your reference (which you should do anyways).
If not then I'd ask your new job if you can start sooner and explain the situation. You don't NEED to work a 2 week notice, it's nice that you are willing to do so but if they are not going to be happy with just a 2 week notice then give them nothing. I'd certainly not ask the new job to delay your start date, your obligation is to them now ,not your old job.
Re:Leave sooner. (Score:2, Insightful)
Tit-for-tat is satisfying but it's probably better in the long-term to be the professional here. If he does get a negative reference, and sues for libel, it will look a lot better for him if he gave fair notice than if he just left. At the very least there will be no awkward questions about why he didn't work his notice.
I concur (Score:5, Insightful)
I understand he has since been fired.
You can't trust someone who is going to threaten you.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Definitely bring it to HR (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:This may not be possible (Score:2, Insightful)
That's why you should keep in touch with your contacts through non-corporate channels. Never leave a company without having traded personal email addresses and cell numbers with colleagues you got along with.
Re:Call in sick, now (Score:2, Insightful)
Also, CYA - export your email files, now, to a USB stick/CD/whatever and take that offsite.
Don't do this. It's probably against company policy as email is generally considered property of the firm.
Since you work in tech, you probably don't have a union. They could've helped with this.
The only people unions help are ones who on their own can't keep a job.
Re:contractor position? (Score:4, Insightful)
If they insist, take back the inch. Give them two weeks notice.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:4, Insightful)
Which is why you NEVER list references without checking them out. have friends LIE and call as if they are company XYZ asking for a reference.
NEVER EVER give your boss as the contact for your last company, give them HR and the HR number. If you want to list your boss as a reference then do so separately.
Re:Definitely bring it to HR (Score:4, Insightful)
I don't think this will effect your recommendations as much as it will effect severance or unemployment benefits. If this small company failed or you get laied off or fired because you weren't a good match. They will say you left on bad terms which may make getting unemployment benefits much harder. For a large company that means they will still need to pay for such benefits. All these HR Regulations are a feeble attempt to make a company responsible for the employees however all it does is force companies to use the loopholes which end up screwing the employee more, to protect themselves from extra liabilities.
Most of the laws are for the employee but due to politics the "Bad Employee" gets less rights. As no one want to pay taxes to support the lazy bum who jumps from job to job and does nothing.
A lot of these laws were based a generation ago where people were expected to do the same job for life. There is little change to todays echonomy where people are expected to be in the same company for 10 years or so max.
Comment removed (Score:3, Insightful)
Talk to HR now. (Score:5, Insightful)
Ask them what the company policy is regarding giving references. Explain you are worried because of what your manager has said.
HR exists to protect the company. Your manager is jeopardising the company since any unfairly poor reference would leave the company open to legal action. HR won't like his actions.
Re:Definitely bring it to HR (Score:5, Insightful)
If the company just wants you around to be their go to person, then good references may be a moot point. I assume that you are leaving to expand your horizons. It could be that management still sees you a s the person you were when you started at the company, and they don't want to lose you, or have some misplaced parental feelings. Who knows, but if they want to keep you just to have you around, then there are likely to be negative feelings. Going to HR may just compound those feelings. Despite this, it will probably be necessary for you to put a letter in response to any negative letter put in because of your leaving. As was mentioned on the recent farewell letter thread, it is better to be as positive as possible. For instance, focus on your record, that you are leaving to expand yourself personally, and that you will never be able to repay the thoughtfulness and help of the people you have worked with. You know, the standard bull shit.
The lat bit is probably the best advice as far as I am concerned. Many of references have been peers, as my peers tend to know my real skills while my supervisors simply know that I finish work quickly. I wonder if any of you other coworkers have left, and therefore will make good references as they are no longer part of the office politic.
Re:There's more than 1 way to skin a cat... (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd do it the other way.
contact new job, "Can I start today instead?"
if yes, go into old bosses office tell him to shove it up his ass sideways, you're filing a lawsuit on him if he says ANYTHING other than that you worked there, and walk out right now with zero notice.
Catering to an asshole empowers the asshole. Smacking an asshole is just plain old fun.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:5, Insightful)
As an aside, it is quite possible that no one above your manager (presuming it was he/she that threatened you) is aware of this stupid intimidation tactic.
This is very true. This happened in my company, also in a software group, also in an at-will state. The person affected fortunately liked his coworkers but just hated mgmt and wanted out. Fortunately he also had a GF in the same company (in my group), and she leaked out what was happening and our own manager said that's against company policy and grounds for dismissal, that he should go to HR. They aren't his friend, but they exist for this purpose.
Well it turns out this was just a desperate manager, at the end of her leash. She was not fired, but was removed and her bluff called.
My opinion is to discuss with HR, but give them the 3 weeks you promised them, and leave. It's unlikely they'll report any of this to people asking about your references (at least in the US), and you clearly need to leave that company anyway.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:Check state laws (Score:3, Insightful)
Unlikely. The reasons companies often won't give a bad reference, even if deserved, is that they don't want to get sued. There isn't a law about that enables employees to do this, per se, it's just asserting slander/libel.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Insightful)
Two weeks? If someone pulled this shit on me, I'd tell them "Gee, then I don't see a reason to give any notice then" and walk out.
Re:Call in sick, now (Score:0, Insightful)
The only people unions help are ones who on their own can't keep a job.
Spoken like someone who a) has never been in a union
and b) doesn't understand life.
In cases where an adversarial relationship exists between employer and employed, a union is a force multiplyer.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Re:I concur (Score:3, Insightful)
If it's "At will", then it's "At will", meaning they can surely do this.
Your response is to inform your co-workers that giving 2 weeks notice results in immediate termination.
The company will then discover that they don't get notice, and realize why it's bad practice to immediately terminate an employee who gives notice. Smart companies will accept notice, pay you your 2 weeks, and may or may not have you report to work for those 2 weeks.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Insightful)
Step 2) Keep a copy of it's response. If they say "hey we want you to stay longer" great. Send yourself a copy.
Step 3) In the future when a potential employer says "why don't you want to use these guys as a reference" show him the letters "hey they did like me, they wanted me to stay more then three weeks notice".
Employment at will also means you can quit whenever you want. You fired your company and gave them 3 weeks notice. If they fired you would you get 3 weeks notice?
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:3, Insightful)
quote the applicable statute and paragraph
I would not resort to this part of the process unless they first said "No". You don't want to initiate a hostile attitude. Just send an e-mail "would you please provide me a complete copy of my employee file... thank you". If they say no keep the e-mail and respond with the statute. If they say no again sue them.
BCC all letters to your home address.
Re:Check state laws (Score:2, Insightful)
Really. Can you cite a source? I've seen this stated time and again and after an exhaustive search I cannot find any state that makes it illegal to disclose true and factual information about a previous employee.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd say do this. Forcing people to accept and further their bluff is a completely legitimate tactic.
If the new employer will take you sooner, you should tell the boss that if you're getting a bad review anyway, you'll just leave tomorrow and they'll be screwed all around. Tell him and HR that, given his threat, you want it in writing that you'll get an appropriate review in the future or you're walking tomorrow.
They will have to respond in some sense, because unless you're useless they need you or they lose money.
-- business owner. Trust me here.
Good luck with that,
-Josh
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Insightful)
Or just go home at the end of the day, and don't come back
Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
or he's very politically connected (which is unlikely if he's stupid enough to try a move like this).
The large majority of the most successful people I've seen in the corporate world are stupid, egotistical, loud-mouthed bullies who live their lives without an ounce of introspection or regret. Mostly due to the complete and total lack of repercussions they receive for being so.
You send out that email and he'll probably get a promotion.
I don't understand it either - but I've seen things go that way often enough to understand that that's the way it works.
Re:References (slightly OT) (Score:3, Insightful)
>>>"He was lazy. If he had an inefficient process he had to do over and over again, he'd do everything he could to make it more efficient so he wouldn't have to do as much work."
That's my entirely life in a nutshell. Even as early as 4th grade, I was always looking for ways to get my math problems done as fast as possible (i.e. looking for patterns), so I could do it in half the time, and go back to watching Tom & Jerry or the Stooges. In fact I think "he was lazy" is the motivation behind most inventors. They want to find ways to minimize work.
What's annoying is when corporations Don't let you improve process. "You must do it this way, even though it takes 6 hours, and you found a way to do it in 1." It's stifling.
Don't count on HR (Score:5, Insightful)
Never mind that it is an asinine strategy... it actually does work for positions like cashier, because they can always grab another person off the street, give them a day of training, and voila... a new cashier. Trying to tell them this strategy does NOT work with educated & certified techs fell on deaf ears.
So, guess what? We had a slow couple of months. And I made the most money in my department. So I was called in one day to the manager's office, where I was read a list of completely bogus complaints from other store managers: not just exaggerations but things that never actually happened. I was told these complaints were going in my employee file and that if I wanted to stay on with the store, I would have to take a $6/hr. pay cut.
I was furious. By law in my state, I have the right to examine and reply to anything that is in my employee records. So I went home with a copy of these "complaints", and wrote up a detailed and carefully worded reply, including solid evidence that 2 out of the 3 complaints were completely false, and casting doubt on the 3rd. It was false too... I just did not have much evidence to back up my side of the story.
I took this in to the manager's office, and demanded that my reply be put into my employee file. He told me okay (as he had to, under law). But... I got access to my file a month or so later, and my reply was not in the file. It had "mysteriously disappeared".
A week or so later, we had a visit from the corporate HR person. Very nice lady. Always "on our side", etc. After the formal meeting I went to her with my story, told her that I had a copy of my reply to the complaints, and I would like to make sure it got in my file. She told me to give her the copy, and she would see to it personally.
Yeah, right. Of course it never made it in there.
I quit not long after that, for a better job. But I learned: don't rely on HR. They can be slaves to the people who pay their checks... it is a position that is very close to having a built-in conflict of interest. No doubt some are legitimate, but don't count on it.
Just as an aside: after I left, that manager was caught embezzling. He had created fake employees and was somehow managing to put their paychecks in his own bank account(s).
Re:contractor position? (Score:2, Insightful)
Of course, contractor rate has to be at LEAST 3x salaried/hourly rate, just to keep your take-home amount up. As an independent contractor, you get the joys of paying the employer's share of various taxes.
Then there's the skim needed for being a contractor and having to plan for down time between jobs. Call it another 3x (6x total), in this economy.
Anything on top of that is revenge money. But you're already going to cost the company a lot more simply due to YOUR business case.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Insightful)
I wouldn't go to HR without going to a lawyer first.
Your essentially telling the company that you suspect wrong doing and possibly illegal behavior from the management directly over you and that you demand proper action.
The problem with that is you have brought up a legal threat to them that comes from you personally. Their first reaction is probably going to be to forward the letter to a legal department or a supervisor over them who will and then the company will attempt to protect itself from "you" suing them. Instead of you just being a "whistle blower" in this case, you are or could be the hostile party from their perspective. They will have to make a choice, cover their asses from liability or support you and hope you don't sue. There's probably a few other choices too but their fist inclination is probably going to be self preservation which means amassing a ton of information against you to paint you as a disgruntled employee upset with something else with an objective that may be to financially harm the company by fraudulent statements. At this point, any disciplinary actions they take against the manager in question will support your position so expect it to be you gone with him staying until they can find another reason to punish or fire your supervisor.
Speaking with a competent lawyer first could secure an accurate and proper copy of your record which heads off this burnt bridges campaign when they figure your intentions out. It will pretty mush leave them with the only appropriate action to be supporting you instead of the company. However, the lawyer will know better the we do on what is at stake and how to proceed. Reporting something like this can have legal ramifications for at least on of the parties and legal benefits for you so exploring those issues in order to limit destructive behavior is more then appropriate. Even if they stand on your side of things, after five years or so, the manager may be in a better position to react to a grudge over the demotion he received or the promotion he never got because of that shit.
Get A Lawyer, right now you idiot (Score:3, Insightful)
What they are doing is called blackmail, and it is also an attempt to enslave you. Yeah, being forced to work for someone against your will is *slavery*.
Grab every bit of documentation you have and take it to a *lawyer*.
You do not want to talk to HR until you get a lawyer. You want your lawyer with you from now on every time you talk to any one in management.
Why are engineers and scientists such cowards? If a manager tried that tactic on a lawyer or an MBA they would *own* the company in a couple of weeks.
Get a Lawyer.
I am not a lawyer, but I have learned when to call one.
Stonewolf
Re:Call in sick, now (Score:4, Insightful)
The only people unions help are ones who on their own can't keep a job.
Spoken like a true ankle grabber. Heard of Chesley "Sully" Sullenberger, the highly praised pilot of that US Airways flight that made an emergency landing on the Hudson river? Not only is he a member of a union, but he was the safety official for the union [cogitamusblog.com] and pushed for safety training for pilots. And just about everyone else involved in the near-perfect rescue operation was a member of a union - from the flight attendants to the flight controllers to the tug boat operators that fished passengers out of the water.
If you oppose unions and are a business owner, you're acting in your own self interest. If you're a worker and oppose unions...you're a damned fool and a tool.
Professional athletes, writers, directors and actors are rewarded for creativity and success, and can make fantastic sums of money - while being part of a union. There is nothing preventing you from being in an IT union and making that 6 figure salary you've always wanted - except your outsized ego.
And if a company/industry fall on hard times, unions can and do take cuts in order to save jobs. The aforementioned Mr. Sullenberger has seen his wages go down by 40% and his pension slashed. So stop hating workers, and start organizing.
Re:contractor position? (Score:2, Insightful)
But that isn't the point. The point is to improve the morale of the person performing the beatings...
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Insightful)
I'll agree.
If you have your new employment in the bag already I would say ditch the current outfit ASAP. If the new company is will is willing to take you right away do it and leave them in a lurch. You'll probably be with the new company for 1-5 years. They will more than likely be happy to give you a reference when you're done working with them from the sound of it.
Particularly if the current company you are working for is full of douchebags.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Insightful)
If you took a job where working around the laws of thermodynamics was part of the job description, you deserve to be fired.
yeah but how often do you sign up for a job where the actual role is exactly described by the job spec?
Re:Call in sick, now (Score:3, Insightful)
I don't see how the union weighs into that -- people who want to do a good job often do anyway.
Old and established unions, like any other established institution, eventually end up focused on their own continued existence. They will create conflict if needed to make themselves seem "relevant".
Re:contractor position? (Score:4, Insightful)
Companies no longer give references in many cases. All they do is record years of service and pay. They have enormous legal exposure for doing otherwise.
That is not necessarily true. In some states, if you do not give a proper reference for someone who steals from you and that person steals from his or her new employer, that employer has grounds to sue you.
I did a bit of my own research on this several times over the past several years. This included state employment websites and a number of lawyers.
The bottom line is simple: ANYONE can sue you for ANYTHING, but your defense is the truth. So long as you stick to the facts, your ass is legally safe. Many companies, however, have adopted policies to reduce risk of lawsuits which limits information provided to work dates and if the employee qualifies for rehire. In some cases, the last bit is not allowed, but again, only by policy.
The problem is no one has spine enough to stand up to worthless fucks. Some places will not prosecute theft because of the trouble involved. Screw that. You steal from me, your ass is going up in front of a judge. If you have a legal record, then I do not have to give you a negative reference, anyway. Problem solved.
I have seen too many cases where an employee is fired for theft, but not prosecuted or even noted in employee files, and then qualifies for unemployment. We let too many bad people get away with too many bad things.
Ugh.
Re:Really? (Score:5, Insightful)
Oh yes, absolutely. I'm especially fond of the Robert Frost reference - he's a favorite of mine.
And although I don't understand it - I do have a theory on why those types do well.
Stupid people excel at taking because greed is a very base desire. Three year olds understand it perfectly. Mine! Mine mine mine! And business responds well to those to take. Because business is about taking. Taking opportunities, taking your competitor's marketspace, taking in money...taking.
These people are takers, and business is about taking.
And back to your point - that's why these people have driven the economy into the ground. It's the financial equivalent of overfishing. [wikipedia.org]
They've depleted the free money in the economy by overharvesting it. Now there's not enough money in the pool to "multiply" and sustain the economy at its current level. Hence the crash. Housing prices falling, Dow Jones tanking, gas dropping from $4/gal back down to $1.60. It's just the ecosystem righting itself.
Also why I think the bailouts are such a bad idea. The system needs the feedback to correct itself. Some of the predators need to die off so the smaller lifeforms can flourish again. Too many sharks in the ecosystem.
On a gut level most people understand that. That's why when you see stories about how factories lay off thousands and then give the execs a raise [statesman.com] rub people the wrong way. Deep down, even the execs know this is bad for the system. But they're stupid takers, and consequences are just something they're not good at thinking about.
Re:contractor position? (Score:2, Insightful)
Me likey. But it takes a certain coolness to wear a wire... I'd have to also take beta blockers before that meeting!
But my philosophy is that you only feel screwed if you thought you weren't already screwed... which you were as soon as you accepted the employment relationship.
I'd just stick by your 3 week offer and walk away... no lawsuits... no lawyers (life is way way too short)... no conflicts.
If you are working for a company that is so dickish that it won't accept notice and will choose to screw you on future recommendations, then you are working for a company that is so dickish that there may be nothing you can do to please it or get your recommendations... indefinite extensions of your work on their terms won't help you.
That's employment in America. You give them your work (the years of your life!), they give you your monthly compensation... their recommendations are completely voluntary.... as I understand it.
Besides you have a new job already. It's really your last employer that matters for recommendations, not the one before that. Leave it alone. Go in peace. Avoid conflict. Live well. Don't hold anger. Walk away from assholes. It's a way of life.