How To Handle Corporate Blackmail? 675
An anonymous reader writes "I have been in a software engineering position at a large company for approximately seven years. Recently, for a variety of reasons, I accepted a new job working for a local software company. I have given my employer three weeks' notice, instead of the standard two, as a courtesy.
In return, it has been implied that, in spite my record of above-average performance appraisals and promotions, I will be marked as leaving the company 'on bad terms' if I refuse to extend my departure date further. With only three weeks remaining, I am hesitant to rock the boat by contacting our HR department, but this concerns me and seems like an extremely unethical practice. I live in an 'at-will' employment state, so I know that they have no legal recourse to keep me. I am concerned about the references they could give in the future; having spent a large majority of my career at this company, I will be dependent on them for references to verify my career experience.
Has anyone ever run into this kind of situation before?"
contractor position? (Score:5, Interesting)
Would you be willing, and would your current employer be willing, to stay on a few weeks longer as a contractor at a higher pay rate? Would your new employer allow you to change your start date?
Test the theory (Score:3, Interesting)
After you leave, have somebody posing as a fictional tech company call for a reference. If they make blatently untrue statements, it might fit under some defamation law and be worth a little extra lawsuit money.
This may not be possible (Score:3, Interesting)
In many companies, rank-and-file employees can be fired for saying anything positive or negative about a former employee other than confirming dates of employment. So much for relying on soon-to-be-former coworkers.
Former coworkers who have since left the company are fair game.
Similar thing happened to me (Score:5, Interesting)
I got fired from a company I worked for for two years because my boss found some emails I'd sent to a friend of mine (who worked at one of our suppliers) calling him a complete asshole.
This obviously put me in a bit of a tricky situation with references, but luckily the general manager of the company was a good guy and knew that the guy in question indeed was an asshole, so agreed to give me a reference.
Your case is even more clear-cut than mine, in that you have obviously done nothing wrong. Given that some people in your company are obviously acting in a completely childish manner, can you find a sympathetic individual - who's not your boss but is someone high up enough - who can give you a reference?
As a final point, most companies shouldn't give good/bad references for exactly these reasons - they can be used to distort the truth to benefit the company in question. A lot of places just give a standard statement confirming that the employee worked in the specified role between the specified dates - this should be standard.
Re:Most common advice (Score:2, Interesting)
The above is excellent advice - always record what's going on.
I've had the same extortion racket happen to me before as well: "If you don't stay on, we'll give you a bad recommendation to future employers. Oh, and by the way, we're out of money so you need to work for less, and those hot checks we wrote you? Yeah we're not going to pay you for those.".
Go to your local electronics shop and pick up a cheap digital audio recorder, and when they say something incriminating just record it. Get a copy of your reviews from HR as well. If a company is serious about hiring you and they tell you that the previous employer gave you a bad review, give them the evidence.
You really should ask a lawyer though.
Corporations are not people, they have no feelings (Score:5, Interesting)
I've moved an left a few jobs, I've been fired from one. In the course of job doing data management, I found the general manager of the company embezzling $20,000 per month. I contacted HR & legal discreetly. Its a publicly traded small company ($150MM market cap). Doesn't matter. The GM fired me shortly thereafter.
Its a small industry, and when people call for references, they say bad things. "Doesn't follow through", "lack of focus", "wouldn't show up". General bullshit. I've lost several good jobs because of this.
Here's the shitter: I HAVE NO FUCKING RECOURSE. I fucking stumbled across some BIOTCH stealing, tried to do the right thing, and now I'm fucking paying the price for it. I've been out of work over a fucking year, and can't get a fucking job to save me. I've burned through ALL my life savings (I'm 38), and have no prospects for work. My wife is stressed and I have young kids to take care of.
So, I don't know what to tell you. Its very possible to get very screwed through no fault of your own.
Remember this, though: Nobody is looking out for you but you. NOBODY. There is no honor at company. No ethics, no morals. NOTHING. If you don't sleep under the same roof, expect nothing of people.
yes, I'm bitter and jaded. And I've earned it.
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
When I worked in HR calling references, more companies than I would've thought will badmouth you.
Sure it's against the law, but I'm not going to tell the applicant, "We aren't going to hire you due to a shit reference and sure, I'll gladly use my vacation days to go to court with you".
Instead your app gets filed away until it gets old enough to shred.
Re:Corporations are not people, they have no feeli (Score:2, Interesting)
It may be a bit late to help you, but publicly traded companies fall under the purview of Sarbanes Oxley.
When I worked for a publicly traded company a couple years back, a letter was included in my new hire packet that provided the phone number of a third party I could call if I believed some kind of fraud was going on within the company.
See if any of this helps you too - http://www.sox-online.com/act_section_806.html [sox-online.com]
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Check state laws (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Interesting)
I agree.
In this situation I would take the "me me me" approach and weigh respective salaries. If the old job pays more than the new job, then I would extend to my notice from 3 to 4 weeks and pocket the extra cash. If the new job pays more, then I'd maneuver into the new job as soon as possible, rather than stay in a toxic environment. See more below.
>>>it has been implied that I will be marked as leaving the company 'on bad terms' if I refuse to extend my departure date further.
Implications don't mean much. You need to have it in writing. So if this person "implying" a bad reference is your asshole boss, I would ask him for clarification; maybe he didn't mean what it sounded like. If he confirms he did mean it, ask for it in writing (or capture it on tape) and forward a copy to HR to see if they concur with that manager's assessment. Could be that the manager himself will soon be fired.
And as for bad references, I've known many employees who sued their previous employers for giving bad reference. For that reason most corporations say nothing, except to confirm "yes this guy worked here starting ____ and ending ____". They don't want to get sued so they avoid saying anything negative. I would not be worried.
Hit by the bus???? (Score:2, Interesting)
Re:There will be no recommendation. (Score:3, Interesting)
Don't worry about your recommendation. All a large company will do is confirm that you were employed.
In large companies they don't know who works for them, unless they are high up on the payroll ;)
Re:They're setting themselves up for a lawsuit (Score:1, Interesting)
I worked for a place and went way beyond my pay scale to do stuff. I told the guy who interviewed me that I would work there one year. As I found out after he quit, he was telling both sides what he figured they wanted to hear. At that point, I realized why he had quit so I didn't remind them that I was leaving after a year until that year was up.
At first they offered me a pay raise to stay since they were happy with my work and I said no. They then got pissy. I would figure any reference from them would say I sucked.
Re:Call in sick, now (Score:3, Interesting)
>>>I was going to suggest burning any leave you have accrued as your "fourth week,"
That won't work. At Lockheed Martin they consider your last day to be the last day you appeared in the office, and will not pay any vacation/sick days past that point (i.e. you can't take vacation your last week). I imagine most corporations follow the dame policy.
So if you do decide to take a vacation, do it immediately. Or just take the cash payout for the unused days.
Re:Definitely bring it to HR (Score:3, Interesting)
I'm posting anon for obvious reasons. I worked two months shy of four years at one company. It was doing badly and I decided it was time to start looking for other work. I found another job and by that point layoffs were announced. My bosses all the way up to the subordinent of one of the vice presidents were doing very questionable things to get me to stay. I am not going to detail that because it would identify me, sorry.
Because of this whiff of no good I got from management I told the places I was looking in to that I do not want them to contact my current employer since I feared repercussions if they learned I was looking around for a new job. Most places agreed and contacted only my prior references after I sent them a pay stub to show that I actually was employed where I was claiming to be. I actually liked that since I was very well paid and it curtailed a lot of the BS I had gotten when I was looking for work before.
I called HR and they told me I did not need to give any notice but that 2 weeks was customary. I gave a month. Then I got the verbal warning from my manager, his/her boss, and the subordinent of one of the vice presidents that they would tell anyone that asked about how I was a bad employee. Then they tried to guilt trip me to stay (how they expected that to work after threatening me first I never understood), but I believed that the prospects for the company were very poor in the next few years.
I ended-up contacting the state AG (CA), they ended-up sending a letter to me and the company notifying them about various laws that they could be breaking if the allegations were true. By then my month was up and I was gone.
Then I kept in touch with coworkers of mine at the company, within two years (it surprises me to this day that the place is still around) all of those people in management were gone. Now I am confident that if I look for new work I would list that company and they would be contacted and simply state that it is true that I worked for the period stated.
If I had needed to look for work before then, that letter from the AG, my explanation, and the fact that I had worked there for nearly four years would have gone a long way I am sure (it is hard to explain why the company would keep a bad employee around for so long). In any case I do think that your managers are simply trying to scare you, just like they were me, and in reality they realize that they could get into a world of trouble (basically they fear losing their jobs) if they actually said anything negative about you. If they know that you have a letter from the AG, that will help convince them as well.
Re:Corporations are not people, they have no feeli (Score:3, Interesting)
You caught your manager committing a crime?
And HR and legal BOTH put up with it instead of investigating?
Ok, your manager is a shithead, and HR and legal both either got their heads up their butts, or are in on it.
Since it's a publicly traded company, you may also want to escalate this internally. Tell the board of directors about BOTH the embezzling AND the fact that HR and legal didn't do squat about it.
Lastly, if it's not past the statute of limitations for embezzling, I would suggest you report this as a criminal offense to the local DA or SEC.
Re:Corporations are not people, they have no feeli (Score:3, Interesting)
You have recourse and need to talk to a lawyer.
"The Corporate and Criminal Fraud Accountability Act is part of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act of 2002, enforced by the Department of Labor. It protects employees of publicly-traded corporations from retaliation for reporting alleged violations of any rule or regulation of the Securities and Exchange Commission, or any provision of Federal law relating to fraud against shareholders. Not only does this landmark Act criminalize employer retaliation, it also requires publicly-traded corporations to create procedures for internal whistle blowing. Additionally, it requires attorneys to become internal whistle blowers."
Advise H.R., leave, and follow up. (Score:1, Interesting)
You absolutely need to let H.R. know the situation. Otherwise the company has a valid 'bad apple' defense -- that your manager was a bad apple and if only you had brought the issue to management's attention....
Continue to work for as long as they want, up to the three weeks you specified in your letter of resignation. In any case they'll have to pay you for all three weeks.
Then, have a friend call the company posing as a potential employer and ask for a referral. (If your state allows it, record this call.)
Either you'll have nothing to do as a result, or you'll have a very compelling case against the company.
Oh yeah, IANAL
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Interesting)
Firstly,
Capture their communications saying they would give you a bad rating for leaving on 3 weeks notice.
Then take the notice down to 2 weeks as the parent poster suggests
Secondly
Companies no longer give references in many cases. All they do is record years of service and pay. They have enormous legal exposure for doing otherwise.
Thirdly,
If they are really pissy, I'd say "you know... I feel really ill today". You probably have 2 weeks of sick time. Come in late... leave early. For bonus points, Gut a fish on your desk.
Fourthly
Your *real* references come from work friends and managers who you were on friendly terms with. Get their names and numbers. Screw the company. It may not even exist in 2 years.
Re:contractor position? (Score:4, Interesting)
Why not? I was able to document my last boss' actions in writing ("if you can't do this job, I'll fire you and get somebody else who can"), simply because he was stupid and used email for all his communications. I was able to take that email to HR, whereupon the boss was forced to attend sensitivity training, and I was reassigned to a more friendly project.
And then there's the other option of getting an MP3 player or tape recorder, so you could capture the bosses' threats. Yes it's sneaky, but he's an ass and I think it's justified. You need proof not just implied threats. Something you can show HR.
Re:Hit by the bus???? (Score:1, Interesting)
Very good advice, thank you (this is the OP). I made the offer to stay on as a contractor and was told there is no way they could hire me back at T&M after leaving; their only option is to extend my leave date behind the scenes and keep paying me a salary for the duration. When I joined the company, I signed an agreement not to work for any other IT company during my employment. Since my boss says this would have to stay just "between us", I feel this is unethical, since I would essentially be collecting two full-time salaries, from both my old and new employer, after signing agreement to not do such a thing. I refuse to compromise my integrity by breaking my a signed agreement, even with my boss' knowledge, since it is not sanctioned my our HR or legal departments.
In addition, I have been begging for a backup to train for 3 years, and was always told that the resources were unavailable. I do not want to leave them high and dry, but I feel I've done my due diligence in highlighting the concern I had with backup coverage; their response to my concern and the consequences thereof are outside of my control.
For the record, this is a HUGE company. The fact that they have been unable to provide backup support or to find someone to whom I can transition my knowledge in the next few weeks is somewhat inexcusable. I have a meeting later today to try and clarify the "leave on good terms" statement. I have had a very good working relationship with all of my managers at this company, which is why this statement really shocked me.
Re:contractor position? (Score:1, Interesting)
It was so bad, that the CEO of the company resorted to making us sign promissory notes for our net pay - which was illegal and leaving us holding the tax bag if the company was to go completely under since he wasn't taking out any taxes, social security, or anything. The promissory notes stipulated that if we left the company, all debt was due and payable in full. If the company went under, the notes would be forgiven. It sucked.
I had had a friend I had worked with earlier tell me if I ever needed a job to give him a call. He worked at a National lab and the position would eventually require a security clearance. I called him up and said I would be interested in talking about a position and was offered one.
The workers were on the verge of all quitting because nobody liked the idea of having to borrow our pay and the CEO forgave all the "debt" and went back to regular paychecks. I waited until I was handed my most recent paycheck to hand in my resignation and two weeks notice.
I had the CEO call me at home and threaten me with knowing just what to say to kill my security clearance and told me what he would say. I told him I quit right then. I had to add an explanation of what might be said by my previous employer to my clearance application which made it where he didn't need to actually say anything but I had to head off him saying anything instead of explain after the fact.
I did get my clearance (thanks to corroborating information from others who also worked there) and the company eventually went under. However, I will remember that son of a bitch forever for what he threatened to do to me and what he apparently did try to do.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Interesting)
Actually, now that I've thought for a second, this isn't the best idea (its still what I would probably have done though). The best idea is to meekly agree, walk back to your desk, write up an email explaining what happened, the manager who did it, and saying goodbye to all your friends. Add to the end that in light of events, this email should be treated as your official letter of resignation, effective immediately. Then send it to the company-wide list (or other largest email list you have access to). That way your boss will probably end up losing his job over it, unless you're widely unpopular or he's very politically connected (which is unlikely if he's stupid enough to try a move like this).
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Interesting)
>>>If they fired you would you get 3 weeks notice?
Hardly. The longest notice I've ever received is 4 days (Monday: "This is your last week."). The more typical term is half-a-day, as happened to my friend John when he and 75 other engineers were told (at noon) to pack up their office and be out by 5 p.m.
I think it's weird how companies can act Unprofessionally by not giving any notice, and yet employees are expected to follow the standard two week custom (or else be labeled unprofessional). Companies have the power to act unprofessionally and get away with it. We don't.
Money == power.
Re:contractor position? (Score:5, Interesting)
I would do something different. I would go back to that manager, and in a conciliatory manner accept his demands, all while having him verbally confirm his demand. I would even grovel and thank him for not messing up my career like he threatened to do.
And I would record it. (It's legal here.)
Then I would give it to my lawyer.
And while working at my next job, I would be happy knowing that my lawyer would be mopping the floor with my previous employer.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Interesting)
I had a boss ask me once if I could wait a week to get paid. I told her that was fine if she could wait a week to get any work out of me.
She paid me :-)
A true story... (Score:3, Interesting)
A company that I left (because I was fed-up with the management) wanted to temporarily get me to consult on a project as a contractor that we hadn't finished yet. Since I had a new day job already, and I didn't really trust them to pay me in a timely manner (since they had stiffed other contractors when I was working there) and I didn't really need the money, I decided to work for barter.
Basically, the arraingment was that after work, I went back to the old company for an hour or two to consult on this project. After those couple of hours, I got to take my ex-coworkers out for a nice dinner on the company (the current employees had to pay and get expense reimbursed for the company and I'm pretty sure they didn't stiff their employees as that would piss them off).
With this scheme, I didn't get a 1099 (no self employment/income tax), got to take my ex-coworkers out for nice dinners every day I consulted on the company dime. Probably cost the company about $200/hour for my time. If later on, I needed a recommendation, I'm pretty I could have coaxed a good recommendation from my ex-coworkers even though the managment wasn't too happy with me for leaving and taking a new job...
Re:Don't count on HR (Score:1, Interesting)
I was a leading network engineer for A 3rd party maint (TPM) provider that does breakfix work for Cisco in the field... after they managed to get 505 billed hours out of me in one month and slightly less for 9 months prior they sacked me on the basis of non performance when I was 5 minutes late to an appointment . The appointment was 4 hours after I stopped work from the previous day at 2am and made with 2 hours notice...)... I was advised if I could not deal with this schedule I must be unsuitable!! Never mind the appointment I was going to was a rebook from another useless engineer the prior day (the whole day to do nothing) One hour after I arrived the whole national network was functional again..
After I criticized management regarding their excessive work practices and the personal results the HR person came in and wrote the most bogus rubbish in a pile of meeting notes and put them all in my file ... two of the meetings were annotated in retrospect. my replies weren't there either when I got the file...
This company (and most in Australia) would not provide any reference of ANY type
None of you have ANYTHING to worry about....
Comment removed (Score:3, Interesting)
Re:contractor position? (Score:2, Interesting)
Ask them for the email so you have an agreement that this is what it takes to get a fair assessment after your departure. Then take that and leave immediately.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Interesting)
Companies don't, but individuals working for those companies still do. I work for a mega media corp, and have gotten three calls in the last month for a reference. All of them were for former contractors... maybe they're handled differently.
Re:contractor position? (Score:3, Interesting)
I kid you not, but once upon a time the requirements for a "snap freezer" for the space station required impossible physics.
The point of a "snap freezer" is to quickly freeze a biological sample from an experiment in space, so it can be analyzed later on the ground.
Unfortunately, the requirements as given could not be satisfied even if the freezer was at absolute zero. Biological samples tend to be mostly water, and it has a finite thermal conductivity and amount of energy required to remove during freezing, so there is a minimum time to freeze a given size sample, no matter how cold the freezer is. And the requirements wanted it *faster*.
So, yeah, been there, and long before Homer Simpson said it, we more or less replied "At this company we obey the laws of thermodynamics".
That refers to the telephone (Score:1, Interesting)
That refers to telephone conversations, not face-to-face conversations. There is no law that I'm aware of that regulates that.
You can point out to your boss that at work, there is no expectation of privacy. Management likes to use that against workers. You can now turn that slogan around.
Re:contractor position? (Score:4, Interesting)
Yes, it happened to me too.
Yes, I recorded it.
Yes, I got the police to file criminal charges.
Never got any civil $ though because the company insisted that the manager acted on their own and against written company policy.
Still, he got fired and the company is deathly afraid of me - wouldn't dare give a bad reference.
Corporate Ethics Abandoned (Score:2, Interesting)
I've run into a similar problem with a company recently that is basically a mirror of your problem... I was forced to resign by this company. The company I speak of is AVDS (Automated Voice & Data Solutions) ( http://www.avds.com/ [avds.com] )
I'm not the only one they have forced out, and in this market... Corporations with compromised ethics seem to be able to get away with this sort of behavior. Another guy they forced out is suing them for back pay, unpaid vacation and a few other things (last I heard).
I was forced to resign on Dec 22nd. Just 3 days before Christmas. I'm now penniless, and because of the market the fat-cats have crushed... I'm now finding it impossible to find another job. The sad thing is... AVDS is doing similar things to CUSTOMERS, not just to their employees.
I'm a Certified Interactive Intelligence, Inc. Telephony Engineer. I'm very good at what I do, and the customers I've worked with know it. I think AVDS simply wants to get rid of their top-paid talent to hire newly certified engineers willing to work for less than what us seasoned professionals are willing to accept.
The so-called Technical Support "Manager" (Michael Lavespere) while I was working there is an absolute control freak. Few (if any) of the customers like him, none of my ex-coworkers (from the original company, at least) like him. He has a propensity for lying and deceiving. He spends his entire day reading everyone's emails instead of trying to improve customer (and employee) satisfaction. Working there for the first three months or so was great... I worked from home. I have an entire office set up with several servers of my own that mirrored everything they could do in the office, but with much better results than they could have had with me in the office.
Unfortunately, from what I've experienced and heard from my ex-coworkers... Lavespere isn't the only one like this. Most, if not all, of the upper management are just like him.
I was available 24/7 and frequently received calls from customers directly because they knew that I could resolve their problems quickly. After all, I'd worked with many of them since 2006. I'm going to be writing up a nice long article about the company outlining the juicy details of the inner-workings of AVDS... Hopefully, I'll help someone avoid being put in the same situation I've been put in because of these jokers.
But either way... I feel your pain, just in a different way. Companies with compromised ethics need to be dealt with. Unfortunately, for the average person, it's not possible. We simply can't afford the teams of lawyers required to make these companies pay for their unlawful ways. All we can do is draw them out into the light for what they are and show the world just how corrupt and unethical they are.
There. My rant is done for now... Thanks for the opportunity to share my own experience alongside yours. Good luck with your situation... You're still better off than many of us!