Circuit Board Design For a Small Startup? 262
Patrick Bowman writes "I'm with a small (okay, it's just me) startup planning a camera-related USB device for the mass market. It's probably patentable so I can't give details. I can handle the software but have no hardware design or manufacturing experience. Does anyone have any recommendations for a company to handle the PCB design and manufacture? Instead of starting from scratch I've also considered approaching one of the companies (mostly in China) that make similar devices and asking them to modify their hardware for my requirements, and to provide their source for me to modify. Has anyone taken this route before? How did it work for you?"
Good luck with IP if working with the Chinese (Score:5, Insightful)
In my direct experience, they are highly-skilled in copying/ripping off and even building on/improving on original ideas. Note: This is for stuff which is often already trademarked, registered and patented.
So, I'd suggest getting some VC/angel financing and professional help, and patent your idea to hell and back in major markets before doing anything else. OK, they'll take a huge chunk of the eventual gain, but 50% of something is a lot better than 100% of nothing.
Find some partners (Score:5, Insightful)
It's nice and all to think you can be the next Richard Branson by doing it all yourself, but in reality very few businesses go from zero to IPO with a single guy pulling all the strings.
Going to China saves you the patenting hassle... (Score:4, Insightful)
Think twice. If you request a vendor modifying his product, and it's easy enough he can do it right away -- how do you think you can ensure he won't run his product line to make more devices than you have requested?
By contract perhaps? Go and sue a chinese vendor in China, then...
First, build a prototype yourself so you know it will work. Or find someone at your location with the appropriate knowledge. Short distances speed up development. The one will then very probably be able to design a custom PCB out of the prototype. And the appropriate software (e.g. Eagle) isn't expensive.
But if you shouldn't know how to build the prototype yourself, I wonder how you know your invention will work at all...
However, good luck.
Re:Where are you? (Score:5, Insightful)
Depends on where you are - I recommend working with someone local. This is the kind of project where you would want to work very closely with the manufacturer.
I second this sentiment. A 3 hr flight to your supplier just puts a big wall betwen you and them. I don't know the scale of operations you are looking into, but you may want to do a few site visits/surveys to make sure that they are up to snuff.
Parts control is important. Just because a component comes from the same supplier, doesn't mean that it was manufactured in the same plant. I learned the hard way that some plants produce on the high side of their tolerances, and some plants produce on the low side of their tolerances. And some plants just don't meet their tolerances.
A refund on a $50 component isn't comforting when all of a sudden your latest units start failing infant mortality tests.
Re:Good luck with IP if working with the Chinese (Score:4, Insightful)
So, I'd suggest getting some VC/angel financing and professional help, and patent your idea to hell and back in major markets before doing anything else. OK, they'll take a huge chunk of the eventual gain, but 50% of something is a lot better than 100% of nothing.
The entrepreneur doesn't start getting anything until the VC have hit their return goals. So it's quite possible that the company is sold, or what have you, for a few million and you still end up with nothing.
In short, if you're going the VC way, be sure to read and understand the agreement and get legal advice!
Re:Good luck with IP if working with the Chinese (Score:3, Insightful)
In my direct experience, they are highly-skilled in copying/ripping off and even building on/improving on original ideas. Note: This is for stuff which is often already trademarked, registered and patented.
OTOH, it sounds like he's not looking for some revolutionary hardware design, indeed he might modify an existing design.
In my experience manufacturing in China, I have not had any problems with knockoffs (although that has happened in the USA!). However, my products have always had their special sauce in the software/firmware. Software is protected by copyright and even if someone in China clones your product, they will not be able to sell it in the US or Europe.
It's much easier to defend yourself with copyright law than with patents. On that note, file a provisional patent - just write up how it works in your own words, and get a lawyer to file it for you. Personally I would not go any further than that. This evidences when you had the idea, and even though it's much less than an actual, issued patent, having it on file can go a long way in the future if you need to fend of a patent on validity grounds.
So, I'd suggest getting some VC/angel financing and professional help, and patent your idea to hell and back in major markets before doing anything else. OK, they'll take a huge chunk of the eventual gain, but 50% of something is a lot better than 100% of nothing.
Especially in this economy, I would not be out trying to raise money. And in general, you need to be very careful about slicing up your cap chart right off the bat. Get as far as you can on your software work and build a solid proof of concept first. Hopefully you can fund that yourself or moonlight it. By then you'll have a better idea what you'll need to get off the ground.
Lotsa good and horrible advice above (Score:5, Insightful)
Lotsa good and horrible advice above.
If you're going to make a commercial product, and you want it to be manufacturable and have high yield and work reliably for more than a week, you need a lot of expert help.
You need an EE to design the circuit.
Then you need a manufacturing EE to redesign the circuit so it does not use any rare or known unreliable or hard to surface mount or single sourced parts.
Then you need a quality engineer who will redesign things so the hot voltage regulator is not right next to the electrolytic capacitors, and shuffle the pcb traces so they're less likely to short out from tin whiskers, and rearrange them for better ESD protection, and they will test it in an environmental chamber for performance over a wide temperature range.
Then you'll need a standards EE who will make sure it meets EU and US standards for safety and toxicity and flammability and electromagnetic emissions.
Then you need someone on site at the manufacturing facility to do QA and make sure they don't divert your product into the black or grey market.
Then you need enough extra time and money to do the whole thing over again if the original design still turns out to be unmanufacturable or have poor yield or reliability.
Don't feel too bad, when Apple set up their own disk drive manufacturing facility, the yield even after extensive tweaking was only about 40%. And that's with huge amounts of money and lots of experienced engineers in the area.
You need a whole lot more than a PCB house.
I'd think hard about your plan... (Score:5, Insightful)
You want to target the mass-market, yet your firm consists of only you? You need to think about how you are going to get mass-market retailers to actually sell the thing, how you are going to get press coverage to publicize it, where you are going to get funding for the production runs, etc.
There are certainly ways to go about this for software (i.e. a game developer producing a little gem for XBox Live), but because of manufacturing costs, this is harder to do for hardware.
I think your best hope is to get a crude hardware prototype with your software running on it, and let an actual mass-market company buy it off of you (or hire you.) The alternative would be to somehow get funding, but if you have no experience in the industry, you won't find anybody willing to hand you money.
SirWired
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:3, Insightful)
Even better, how about we stop encouraging/helping wild-eyed "entrepreneurs" who have these great ideas that are "probably patentable" but who are wholly incapable of actually inventing said devices.
Hell, I have an idea for a 400mpg car for the automotive market. It's probably patentable so I can't give details. I can handle the in-car dvd and entertainment system but have no automotive engineering or manufacturing experience. Does anyone have any recommendations for a company to handle the drivetrain design and manufacture? Instead of starting from scratch I've also considered approaching one of the companies (mostly in Michigan) that make similar vehicles and asking them to modify their hardware for my requirements, and to provide their in-car dvd and entertainment system source for me to modify. Has anyone taken this route before? How did it work for you?"
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:3, Insightful)
Do not go the China route. You will only wind up banging your head against the wall unless you speak fluent Chinese.
And if your design is worth anything, you'll start seeing it on eBay, at dollar stores, in mail order catalogs, As Seen On TV... You'll wonder where those orders are, because none will be coming to you... Theft by Chinese blackmarketers.
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:1, Insightful)
Why?
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:5, Insightful)
how about we stop encouraging/helping wild-eyed "entrepreneurs"
bullshit, I've seen inspired people with ideas hook up with the people with know-how and build amazing businesses. teamwork multiplies brain power. and your mocking of the article poster isn't even accurate, embedded software is a core component of his product vision
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:5, Insightful)
He did invent it, but he doesn't know how to build it. There's absolutely no shame in having the brains to invent a better product but not having the skills to build it.
So, you can lose the attitude. We do need encouragement for enterpreneurs, whether or not they understand something so inconsequential like how to design hardware. Very, very few of us can.
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:3, Insightful)
What, exactly, is your definition of "invent"?
Part of an invention is the process by which it operates and is constructed.
Patenting an "invention" that you have no ability to actually produce is no different than these companies who patented things like "an internet-connected gaming system with wireless controllers" but never built one, because they didn't know how, yet now feel sony, nintendo, MS et al owe them billions of dollars.
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:5, Insightful)
This guy has spec'd out an idea but doesn't have the expertise to build it. He still intends to build it, but needs to outsource that part. Care to elaborate how he is comparable to a patent troll?
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:5, Insightful)
If the numbers are anything like I've seen, for every wild eyed entrepreneur that has a project survive for even a couple years, that same entrepreneur has had dozens fail. For every entrepreneur like this, there are hundreds that throw everything they have into their "I'm going to make it with this!" project, and fail miserably.
A long time ago, I believed in a vision, and the talk. I was young and stupid. I still have tens of thousands of shares in that company. The company sold it's assets, and closed the doors long ago, but in theory if the company were to ever reorganize, those shares could be worth something.
I keep them as a reminder, just because someone has a wild idea and hundreds (or even dozens) of people to follow them, it doesn't mean that they will thrive.
If the original poster has an idea, great. If he can prototype it, even better. If he can arrange for manufacturing, excellent.
Now, if he can take his killer product, get it to market *AND* the public want to buy it, now you're golden. Otherwise, you're just another guy with a dream of making it huge.
Lots of people have had killer products, that have gone nowhere. It can be the latest, greatest innovation that's ever existed, but when you can't get it to market, and/or you can't get the public to buy it, then all you have is a story to tell your grandkids (or the other old lonely single guys at the bar where you drown your sorrows every night.)
Not to shoot down a dream. Go for it. Just stay practical.
Already been done (Score:3, Insightful)
Good idea != invention (Score:1, Insightful)
Invention means both the good idea and the reduction to practice (which, these days, means being able to write down a proposed physical embodiment that someone could build).
So, having the idea, but not having the skills, means you're NOT an inventor. You're an idea generator.
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:5, Insightful)
You are confusing inventing with engineering.
"Leaving research exclusively in the hands of engineers, we would have perfectly functioning oil lamps, but no electricity." -- Albert Einstein
I feel offended by your comment.
Get over it. (Score:3, Insightful)
I can't give details
Get over it. The whole secretiveness about our product thing is a fast track to failure in a startup company.
You need customers, first adopters, partners and venture capitalists. Until you're ready to talk freely, they won't even return your phone call. Worry about the patents when you actually have a revenue stream.
Seriously. How many hardware geeks here on slashdot who might have been interested in your project chose not to contact you because it isn't worth their time to chase a secret of dubious quality?
Re:Try Express PCB (Score:5, Insightful)
"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not; nothing is more common than unsuccessful men with talent. Genius will not; unrewarded genius is almost a proverb. Education will not; the world is full of educated derelicts. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."
This is from an ARGO Computers ad in the July 8th, 1991 edition of Microtimes. The browned page hangs on the wall of my home office. When I think I'm done trying with some project, I look at that page, and then I man up and ask if the project has a realistic chance if I just keep trying.
There once was a man that tried a dozen different businesses, and every single one failed. At age 40, on his last attempt, something simple that he was good at, he founded a restaurant that enjoyed reasonable success. When he attempted to franchise it, he received 1009 rejections before he finally managed to found his restaurant chain.
His name was Harland Sanders, his chain was KFC, and before this wild-eyed entrepreneur died he would have told you that 11 herbs and spices weren't the secret of his success. It was determination.