Best Grad Program For a Computer Science Major? 372
ryanleary writes "I am currently a junior computer science major at a relatively competitive university. I intend to remain here for some graduate work, and I would like to get a master's degree. What would be a good field to study? An MS in computer science appears to be highly theoretical, while an MS in IT seems more practical due to its breadth (covering some management, HCI, and design). What looks best on a resume, and where might I expect to make more money in the not-too-distant future? Computer Science, Information Technology, or something different altogether — perhaps an MBA?"
Resume (Score:5, Insightful)
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I think choosing the type of degree based on what looks best on your resume isn't the best way to go. Graduate school is a lot of work. If you pick something just because it looks good on a resume and not because you actually like it, I can't imagine you'd enjoy getting your masters.
I'm gonna have to disagree with you on this one. Sure, if you're going for a PhD you better choose something that you like but with a technical masters degree I believe it's perfectly fine to choose something that is a career advancer above personal preference. Graduate school is a lot of work but if you've got a motivator, like advancing your career, then it's not nearly as difficult to plow through that degree in two years and be done with it. Having said that, I wouldn't recommend choosing something c
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I can't imagine you'd enjoy getting your masters
I agree. OTOH not liking it isn't always bad. I hated the place I was doing my masters. As a result, even though I was also working to support myself and then gf, I was in and out of there in 16 months as opposed to the more normal 36-48 months. I believe this was the fastest they had ever seen, even including guys whose companies were paying them full-time to do their degrees. Then I went somewhere I liked, had excellent scholarships and significant addit
That all depends (Score:2)
If he intends to stay in academia and get a PhD (or go to Google) and fancy-ass school on the resume will definitely help with employment, as will publications.
If it's something else, though, then yes, do what you like to do, just make sure you pick a reputable school.
In the end, none of this shit matters once you get your first decent job. What will matter is your network, references and reputation. No one will put you in a leadership position just because you took some classes in school five years ago.
If
What Do You Want to Do with the Rest of Your Life? (Score:5, Insightful)
I am currently a junior computer science major at a relatively competitive university. I intend to remain here for some graduate work ...
Ok, I'm not going to be able to tell you which degree to pursue but I am going to tell you that remaining at the same university you got your undergrad in is a mistake. I was once like you and my professor told me that it was a bad idea for me to remain at the same university for my masters. I didn't care, I wanted to be closer to my family and there wasn't another decent university around. I never got a good explanation why but due to some circumstances, I ended up moving and the result was my masters at a different university.
I am thankful this happened.
I now understand why it's better that you go to another university for your next degree and it has a little bit to do with what some people consider the most important aspect of college. I've oft heard that it's not what you learn at college, it's who you meet. And while I agreed with this about the bullshit degrees in college (like business, architecture, law, etc.) I had never considered it a matter of importance at all in computer science. But it is! Not because of this connection is hooking you up with this position here but more so because of the ideas that sometimes arise between two particular individuals or the new perspectives other people can put on how you see things--yes, even technical things like algorithms.
And so, by staying at the same university, you are wastefully throwing away a chance to work with, learn with and be with 100s of new talented people. If you stay, you most likely know the staff at your current university and will have everything settled but I urge you to consider throwing away that comfort zone and take a gamble at meeting new people with different ideas and concentrations. I think this helps both universities from becoming too stagnant and focusing on the same damn thing year after year. I don't know, I'm no longer in academia but think about it.
An MS in computer science appears to be highly theoretical ...
It doesn't have to be that way. I was given a set of courses to choose from (as long as I satisfied breadth and depth requirements) and I think there were quite a few practically useful classes I could take--even software business classes. At least at my university it wasn't highly theoretical but an individual could certainly go that way. I knew what I wanted to do with my life: code. And it seems like everything I took in my grad classes was in some way useful. I'm given a large set of requirements and one of the first things I do is theorize with others about practical ways to implement it. Thankfully, you can usually spot the choke points and problem areas with designs and although patterns like proxy, caching, model-view-controller and polymorphism are theoretical concepts, they are often considered and analyzed without being implemented.
The point is, everything will look good on your resume as long as it's a masters. And I'm certain you could go down any of the paths you listed and still land a job doing something one of the others is geared towards.
The real question you should be asking is to yourself and it should be "What do I want to do with the rest of my life?" Once you answer that, you'll get a better idea of what masters program to take. The other degrees, probably also useful. I'm pretty biased though and wanted to be working in computer science for the rest of my life so it was an easy answer. Had I done IT I could probably still be where I am right now but I had no desire for that part of the field. Call your own shots.
Re:What Do You Want to Do with the Rest of Your Li (Score:5, Funny)
my professor called this "academic inbreeding".
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Absolutely! If you have any way to move to another university, do so. You'll meet a whole new group of people, both students and faculty. With some luck the students will be from a variety of universities and the faculty will have different interests and different approaches to things. You might find that they'll expect you to learn some stuff that they do at the undergraduate level, but your old school did not, but that's a good thing.
Staying in one place, unless the program is huge and you get t
Re:What Do You Want to Do with the Rest of Your Li (Score:2)
I agree 100% with the need to change schools for a graduate degree. You get a very different perspective because you'll be working with new people. Also, don't throw away the benefits of knowing even more people when you go looking for a job. Having contacts and networking is not about getting a free pass to a job, it's about getting your foot in the door. You might have a very impressive resume, but unless you've invented something completely novel then you're going to be competing against people that
Ahem... (Score:5, Insightful)
My advice is: do what you really want to do. If you really like it, you will be above average. That is the average which asked: what looks best?
When i started to study (physics) the future for physicists looked very grim, according to everybody. Now i can't complain.
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What looks best on a resume, and where might I expect to make more money in the not-too-distant future?
That's a completely different question from pondering CS vs IT. If it was 1995 and you asked this, I would have said "fuck it all and get into flipping real estate until the house of cards crumbles, then take your money and move to Belize..." I didn't do that because I don't care much about money
It often doesn't matter (Score:2)
Depends on Your Interest (Score:5, Interesting)
I found that an MBA with a CS degree was the best for my own career. In general, I found that there are two career paths, and which one you choose depends on your personality/goals/ambitions... You can go either the technical management route or the business management route. I chose the latter for myself and found that it allowed for great flexibility. I've been through 3 recessions now and the combo business/CS made me more nimble when things changed. I have never been laid off or out of work. I ran my own company for several years, and I am now self-employed. But, those friends of mine who went the technical route have had different types of success. Generally, they have grown to be technical managers at companies of various sizes. So, overall, the major difference between folks that took the MBA route and those that took the Masters/PhD in CS/IT is that the latter work 9-5 corporate jobs. Not that there is anything wrong with that, but it seems to just be that way. You easily could get an MBA and end up working in a corporate environment as well. To be honest, the two people I know with the greatest success did technical BS, then MBA, then (gag) a law degree.
Sorry for the long rant. My bottom line is... Stay in school, kids!
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BA - check
MBA - check
Law Degree - currently in progress
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Exactly. Before even asking us you should have defined your goals. I would recommend going to your school's career counseling center and taking a skills and interest survey first.
Then define your goals.
Then and only then look for a school. When looking for a school, and an adviser, use word of mouth and interview potential advisers carefully. Look at their research and see how you fit in with their research and their personality. I was offered a free ride, but the potential adviser struck a wrong note with
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There is often a point as your sills increase it gets to a point where the usefulness of those skills begins to level out. After about a decade of a decade in a half most good techies have gotten to a point where they can face technical challenges given to them and produce good work. Getting a Masters in the same degree will not help you out professionally, yes you may learn some cool stuff, and if you want a masters purely for education not for work advancement thats great, but for the most parts it wil
What do you want to do? (Score:3, Insightful)
"What looks best on a resume" depends entirely on who is reading the resume. If you want to work I.T., and simply have a lot of I.T. experience, then you have a good resume. But if you want to work for Microsoft research, then that same resume is worthless.
So, your first priority should be figuring out what you want to do. The best way to do this is to try different things. Get internships. Try everything. Then make a decision; this will tell you what degree to get.
How about doing what you enjoy? (Score:5, Insightful)
Stop worrying about what's going to make you the most money and figure out what you enjoy. An MBA that hates his job is worthless. A computer scientist that isn't passionate about math and theory is worthless. An IT guy that isn't obsessed with all things tech will never be as good as the guy that is.
Figure out what you love doing and do that. If you really love it you'll be better at it. The best people in any field always make plenty of money.
As an aside- the last thing this world needs is more lawyers. The second to last thing this world needs is more MBA's.
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So my suggestion: Don't Go Back To School! (well, not yet) Go get a job in a field you 'think' you may enjoy, and gain some perspective on the industry, and how your talents fit in. After a year or two of that, then make an informed choice of grad sc
Are you deaf? (Score:5, Funny)
I told you last week, nursing school!
Next question.
Re:Are you deaf? (Score:5, Insightful)
Despite being an attempt at humor and being modded funny, this is actually really solid advice.
The field of health informatics is going to skyrocket in the next few years. It has become glaringly obvious, as of late, that the health care field overall is lagging behind other industries in leveraging IT to increase efficiency. Anyone who happens to be educated in both nursing and computer science will have skills that are at no less than a "critical" level of demand during the next several years at least.
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MBA is for people with work experience (Score:3, Insightful)
I would say don't bother with an MBA until you've worked for a few years. Personally, I thing the degree is joke in general, but if you haven't even had any work experience, it means nothing to have an MBA.
if you are just going for a masters, you probably want to be a programmer/engineer, so theoretical is likely not the best way to go. that's the best i can do without some more information about your ultimate career goals.
Theory is not a Bad Thing (Score:2)
If you look at industry 20 years ago it looks nothing like it does today. However, what was "theory" then (functional languages, AI, data mining, natural language processing, test driven design, parallel distributed computing) is practice today. In 20 years, the "practical" IT aspects will be completely different, but the theoretical foundations will still matter. You're going to need to learn how to keep up with practice yourself on your own as a matter of a) career maintenance and b) personal interest. Fr
Consider an MSEE (Score:5, Insightful)
I've found that, as an engineer myself (originally) the greatest lack of understanding among computer science majors are the details of the hardware itself. I've had guys with CS degrees try to control 120VAC equipment using the parallel port!! And then not understand at all why this is not a good idea. Control systems are a burgeoning field all by themselves and because they're all computerized now it's a great area.
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I've found that, as an engineer myself (originally) the greatest lack of understanding among computer science majors are the details of the hardware itself.
Ditto. I started out working on a BS in EE, but my school didn't have a good digital program at that time, so my advisor suggested I switch to CompSci. Later in grad school, I took as many EE courses as my electives allowed. I now work in professional services for a major manufacturer of computer equipment, and while I don't use my EE background every day, I don't think I would be where I am today without it.
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I have to second this suggestion as well.
The nation is flooded with CS and MBA and similar "tech" people. Many are out of work or worse, when there is a job, it's moved overseas.
But a degree in engineering is gold. There is a massive shortage of them in almost every nation on the planet, and it's a solid degree that can be leveraged into almost any technical field. Doubly so if you have a BS in Computers. It's essentially the MBA of the science world. But it doesn't have the glut or the backlash that th
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Don't waste your time (Score:5, Insightful)
Sorry if I sound really negative about this, but this is the truth of academia. The big name schools are concerned with research. That is why they have a big name, and that is what they will focus on to maintain their reputation. They often do not offer a better education, and in fact they are often less concerned with teaching than smaller lesser known schools. The professors just can't afford spending too much time teaching, because in the end (for getting tenure at least), research is what matters. In fact, at many of these schools, it is looked down upon if a junior faculty members wins a teaching award. The rest of the university assumes they're spending too much time on their teaching, and not enough on their research.
My recommendation is to talk to the faculty at your current university. See what they recommend, and be truthful about why you want to go to grad school. Slashdot is not the place to find out about this stuff, most people here have no clue. Also remember that as far as graduate programs at top schools go, it's not really that one school is better than another. In reality its that one school is better in one particular specialty area. The choice of which school is best for you depends much more heavily on what you plan on specializing in rather than the US News ranking. Employers know what schools specialize in, and base decisions on that. If you don't plan on specializing (as you don't seem to be concerned with research), the rankings immediately become relatively worthless. Talk to faculty that you know and trust. They can help you, but you have to show that you're worth spending time on. They likely have more important things to do, and don't want someone wasting their time.
phil
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All that being said, a good MS program should involve some research -- not as much as a PhD obviously, but a decent amount, say 1/3 to 1/4 of the total program -- and being at a school known for research in an area you're interested in can be a big plus. I have two MS's, one in CS and one in biostatistics, and for both degrees I was lucky enough to have advisors who specialized in areas very close to my own interests. What I learned in the course of my RA and thesis research with them was enormously usefu
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There are at least some "big name" universities that offer separate "academic" and "professional" graduate tracks.
Perhaps you do attend an ivory-tower institution with a disdain for the practical side of things. (Or perhaps that's just your perception of things.) But there are certainly institutions that are more than willing to take on Masters students who aren't just checking off a box on their way to a PhD.
What you find interesting (Score:2)
Do what you find interesting.
Only that will ensure you'll do it right and get good+experienced in your area of work. Which will result in good income and enjoying your everyday work.
Work for a couple years (Score:3, Insightful)
There's nothing like a few years in-the-field perspective before going back for an advanced degree.
This will give you a chance to see "which way the professional winds blow" for you.
Take those few years to work and have lots of safe, happy sex and generally have a great time. you know, live.
Clarification (Score:5, Informative)
Thanks for all the replies so far, the reason I ask what will look best on a resume is with the economy the way it is, I've begun to wonder what combination of education and experience will give me the most opportunities down the road.
I am an excellent programmer, but working 9-5 in a cubicle writing code scares me and does not seem like a good way to spend the next 30+ years of my life.
That being said, I have done some freelance web design and web database application development and really enjoyed it. I have also worked in various environments doing IT work and found it alright.
So further complicating the issue, (and no offense to people who have a BS or MS in IT) but I often hear that IT degrees are for people who couldn't make it in Computer Science. So does going from a competitive CS program to an IT program look like this?
I don't know how graduate school works. I'm not worried about being miserable at school. I can do anything for one year. It's after school that I'm most concerned with.
And finally, regarding staying here at the same Uni for graduate work, I had never really thought of leaving. A big part of that, however, is I have worked really hard while here and will be completing my B.S. in a total of 3 years. I will still have quite a bit of scholarship money that may be applied to my graduate work if I stay here.
Again, thank you all so much.
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I don't know how graduate school works. I'm not worried about being miserable at school. I can do anything for one year.
Most master's programs, at least in the U.S., are two years. Maybe you can do it in one year at your school because they offer some kind of smooth track into it, but if you went somewhere else, it's almost guaranteed to be two years.
Re:Clarification (Score:5, Insightful)
Apples and oranges, fuzzy thinking at best. By the time you get your degree, economic conditions will have changed.
The first thing you need to decide is what *you* want to do and learn - and resorting to Ask Slashdot indicates to me that you haven't done the basic groundwork in that respect that you should have done years ago.
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One year of experience in the industry will do more for your career then an additional year of schooling. Every programmer I've hired from college took at least two years to start understanding what they're doing no matter how advanced of a degree they have. Programming is like everything else, you need a lot of intense practice to become really good at it and school generally doesn't give people enough time to really hone those skills.
See if you can get a job writing code for a couple of years so you c
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I am an excellent programmer
You have a B.S. in Comp Sci and you think you're an excellent programmer? You could be some kind of genius but that's probably not true. They say it takes about 10 years of constant effort to become good at something. More likely than not you're either not being critical enough of your own work or you're not taking on big challenges.
Think about what an excellent programmer will have accomplished. If you've made major contributions to a kernel or file system, solved a major proble
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The vast majority of real-world programming jobs don't require much beyond addition, subtraction and multiplication. Most of us learned that in high school.
You waited until high school to learn basic arithmetic? ;)
Seriously, a lot of programmers think this way -- until they run into something hard, at which point the ones without a good theoretical background tend to come up with some awful kludge. I've worked with some very talented programmers, who could have been great programmers with a better educatio
Grad school != job training (Score:4, Insightful)
University was never intended to be job training. Grad school even more so.
Do it because you are interested. This is the only reason to do so. Do it because you want to, because you want to learn new things and find things out.
Do it whether they are going to pay you afterwards or not. Though it must be admitted a Masters degree is highly saleable. I paid for mine in 3 months after I graduated.
...laura, B.Sc., M.A.Sc.
Human interaction (Score:4, Insightful)
Whatever you pursue, add some psychology to the mix. Coding can be outsourced, but human interaction can't. There will always be a need for people who can understand both the human mind as well as computers, at least until the two merge... ;)
I was planning to study cognitive science myself, but faith had different plans for me it seems. But never underestimate the power in understanding other people. The hardest part of many software projects is figuring out the real needs, and that nearly always starts with human beings.
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Psychology is good, but remember that human interaction also involves a lot of communication. Take at least 2 classes which are centered around verbal and spoken communication - whether it be a "speaking" class and "writing" class or classes which cover both. If you're doing any programming in a business setting, technical writing skills will be a huge asset (if I have to choose between working with a "stellar" programmer who either can't or refuses t
Professional Degree (Score:4, Interesting)
Your motivation appears to be purely focused toward employment and earnings (not that there's anything wrong with that). As such, I'd have to advise against graduate studies in CS or similar. While they don't have to be theoretical - Master's degrees offer a lot more flexibility in this department than PhDs - they are still focused at their core on contributing to the common knowledge. You're probably better off with a masters or doctorate that falls into the category often described as professional degrees: things such as MDs, Law degrees, MBAs, etc.
You've mentioned an MBA. It's too early for that; while it's certainly not a hard and fast rule, the general consensus is that an MBA works much better after you've been in industry for a few years. You'll be better equipped to discuss and apply the relevant ideas when you know how things work "in the real world." On top of that recommendation, it's important to realize that MBAs have literally become the new "dime a dozen" degree. As the popularity of the degree exploded, every commuter school and online university has begun offering them. Without stooping to elitism (I'm sure the education is sufficient), you risk entering a glutted field with a less than stellar name on your diploma. That's a bad way to make a stack of money and a 2-ish year time sink worthwhile. If you decide on an MBA, you should work for 3 or 4 years, then aim to obtain your MBA from one of the top 40 or so schools. Again, I'm not saying that you'll get a sub-par education or won't succeed with an MBA from tier-3 State U, but it will be more difficult to stand out from a crowd waving MBAs from the big names.
With all that said, may I recommend pursuing graduate studies related to health informatics? At it's simplest level, it's a practical and always-necessary application of CS to the medical field. With the current push from the Obama administration for Electronic Medical Records and the enormous flow of government money sure to follow, it's likely to be an enormous growth industry in the coming years. The basic ideas about DB structure and interface are translatable to other industries if you ever need to leave. Health Informatics-focused graduate programs are available through some Business schools as a hybrid of MIS studies and through the bigger Health Science schools as their own degrees or as specialized variations of Health Administration degrees.
get a job (Score:4, Insightful)
get a job. work 5 years. figure out what you want to do in life.
if you work for anything approaching a decent company, they will pay for your grad school when you figure out what you want to study.
Re:get a job (Score:4, Informative)
get a job. work 5 years. figure out what you want to do in life.
if you work for anything approaching a decent company, they will pay for your grad school when you figure out what you want to study.
This is the route I followed, and it's made pursuing my PhD very difficult. It's way harder to focus on PhD work when you've got a family to provide for. I probably could have entered the PhD program at the Ivy League school where I got my Master's, but they required full-time participation in the PhD program, and that wouldn't have let me support my wife and kids.
All of this would have been avoided if I'd gone straight into grad school right after my undergrad work, and I probably would have had my degree by the age of 26-27, plenty young enough to still start a family.
So now my advice to people considering grad school is: start ASAP, if you even suspect you want to go for a PhD.
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if you work for anything approaching a decent company, they will pay for your grad school when you figure out what you want to study.
I'm not sure that's great advice with the job market the way it is this year. It might we wiser to hide in grad school...
Re:get a job (Score:4, Informative)
get a job. work 5 years. figure out what you want to do in life.
This I agree with. Getting a job and making some money is better than spinning your wheels. However 5 years may be too long, and likely it will only take a few years to come to a decision.
if you work for anything approaching a decent company, they will pay for your grad school when you figure out what you want to study.
These days, you can't expect the company to pay your schooling. My friend graduated a couple of years ago and has been working for HP. He had been planning to get some company to pay for higher education, but at his current job it seems unlikely. So he applied to a Ph.D. program and got in, and is going to quit his job.
On the other hand, another friend of mine did an internship with VMware during undergrad (I think) and now he's getting his Master's tuition paid by VMware.
So YMMV, but these days the mileage is a lot lower than it used to be.
Wrong Criteria (Score:2)
You are considering the wrong criteria in getting a degree. You should instead be asking yourself, "What would I enjoy doing more?" The passion in doing what you enjoy is the best way to maximize your earning potential. You will enjoy going to work everyday, you will be excited to take on and complete diverse projects, and your passion and drive will be obvious to anyone who is around you. People will interpret this as a hardworking ethic at the company , and/or love of the company you work at which wil
Programming Language Research (Score:3, Interesting)
While on the topic, I would like to ask a similar question. What places can people recommend for doing programming language research? I have a MSc in computer science, and I am thinking about getting back into academics after a few years of working. I have been studying and inventing programming languages as a hobby for a number of years now, and I am thinking that, perhaps, I could combine the two and do a PhD project related to programming languages. However, next time I go to university, I want the environment to be a bit more intellectually stimulating than what I have experienced so far. Since I am not tied to any specific location or even country, I have a vast number of universities I could potentially turn to. But which ones would be a good choice? Can anybody recommend some? Or perhaps I should turn to specific people, instead of universities.
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What places can people recommend for doing programming language research?
It's not that popular in the US right now. Today, to launch a new programming language, you need a big launch budget. Sun spent $20 million to launch Java, and they were giving it away. Microsoft probably spent more launching C#. You can't just put it out there any more.
Also, to do programming language work, you need to be really good at compilers, or the performance of your language will suck. We don't need another language r
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``We don't need another language run on what compiler people call a "naive interpreter".''
I agree. Languages like Ruby and Python are hard to beat on easy of use and programmer productivity. However, current implementations don't offer stellar performance. I think there is room for a language that allows both great programmer productivity and great performance, and the work I have been doing is all on languages that compile to efficient machine code. Besides that, I seek to integrate a number of other featu
You're underestimating the value of theory (Score:2)
The key to really setting yourself apart in the real world is the ability to take the theoretical knowledge and being able to creatively apply it in real world, "practical" situations.
Re: (Score:2)
100% Agree. That ability is also often referred to as "experience".
Work and school... (Score:2)
Do both.
My thoughts, coming from the interviewer side, is if you come to us with *zero* work experience and an advanced degree - it won't go well for you. There is probably an expectation that you might be able to 'jump' to a higher pay grade because of the advanced training, thinking it might be equivalent to field time. Unlikely.... When we were looking at some candidates a couple weeks back, we ranked folks with experience greater than those to spent more time in academia. One fear was the person com
What do you want to do? (Score:2)
What are your future plans? Do you want to run your own company, work at google, be a mid level technical manager at some company?
Without knowing your goals and motivations it is impossible to answer this question. It sounds like maybe you are in CS for a job in which case a Bachelors will get you a job programming (and in fact there are many many programmers who didn't even get a college degree
Not directly computer-related (Score:3, Insightful)
I'd definitely recommend getting a more industry-specific graduate degree. Advanced degrees in computer science are common. Someone with a strong degree in C.S., with a post-graduate in a specific field, will be golden (assuming the field of choice isn't dying itself).
It's so incredibly hard to find computing/programming/design talent for specific industries; typically, you get a CS-only person, with no knowledge of the domain, trying to implement a solution for a domain-only person, with no knowledge of C.S. It's a painful process. There's incrdible value for being a strong computer programmer/designer in a specialized field. Again, assuming the field is lucrative to start with.
I'd look at the best-paying fields in general, and find one that piques your interest. Learn more about it, and see if it's something you'd be passionate about, and that would reward you well. Then go for it.
I had a lot of programming experience prior to reaching university; so I took a B.Comm. to start, then finished with an M.Sc. Best choices I've ever made. Having business case insight, and a strong programming/design ability, has really helped me achieve things I wouldn't have been able to, otherwise.
MSSE (Master of Science in Software Engineering) (Score:2)
The Master of Science in Software Engineering degree program may be just what you're looking for. But it's a relatively new degree and isn't offered in many schools yet.
For me, it was useless (Score:4, Informative)
I did my Masters (in Engineering, not Comp Sci, but my example might still be relevant) and discovered that, although I enjoyed the program, as far as my career was concerned a Masters degree was worse than useless.
After I graduated I was hired at a starting salary. My Masters' experience counted for nothing. I was therefore making less money and had less seniority than my former Bachelor's classmates, and was essentially doing the same work. When I was looking for a job, some employers were openly suspicious of my intentions, saying that since I had a Masters degree I would probably quit after a couple of years and go seek a Phd (so why hire me?).
Would I do it all again? YES! Because I really enjoyed doing my Masters and was very very interested in the research that I did. That is the most important thing. If you don't love the subject, you will hate doing your Masters.
I know many people who have done Masters degrees, and the only ones who benefited career-wise were those who continued on to their Phd and those who did MBAs.
Am I the only one? (Score:2)
Am I the only one that finds it odd that OP decided where he wants to be, but not what he wants to do?
Seems rather odd. If I wanted to be a doctor, I'd look around for medical schools and apply to one. I wouldn't be like, "Gollyjeez, no med school here at Collegetown, so Basket Weaving it is!"
Maybe the chicks there are like totally hot?
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Maybe he is able to reduce the expense of college by living with his parents in that particular town. Maybe he is in a long-term committed relationship with someone and he doesn't want to end it to pursue his education.
Don't assume you have all the facts.
What you enjoy. (Score:2)
a relatively competitive university
First off don't know what that is suppose to mean.
Secondly, the amount of work involved in your choice would lead me to say do what you enjoy most. The pay difference between the different options would be offset by how much better you would do it if you liked it (and thus would be better compensated).
Picking based on how much you hope to get paid afterwords probably isn't the best way to look at it.
To Fit In... (Score:2)
But WHY???? (Score:3, Interesting)
You have a CS degree. Go get a job! Yes, this is not the greatest market ever, but working for a couple of years is the best way to find out what kind of career is the best for you. There are of course tons of graduate degree programs where a CS graduate would fit: industrial engineering, operations research, statistics, financial engineering, MIS/CIS, and of course CS, MBA, and law. All of these could lead to good jobs and lucrative careers, if you work hard on it. For what its worth, if you play your cards right, you could get a decent job without these degrees.
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BMA = MBA. See if I had an MBA this probably wouldn't have happened.
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What is a "top tier school"?
A top tier school is one that will teach you the fundamental economic and financial concepts of leading a company as well as requiring you to take multiple courses in ethics. Funny thing about those supposed "top tier" schools, it wasn't until after Enron occurred that ethics became a required course. To my knowledge, the only two university business schools that required ethics courses before 2000 were Notre Dame and Boston College (and they both required a minimum of two semesters of ethics). Wouldn't
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Re:Business or Accounting (Score:5, Informative)
Listen, kid. I'm a professor of business and management science. My masters and PhD are in Computer Science. There is a hidden rule in academic life: you cannot swim upstream. It is easy for a mathematician or a physicist to become an engineer. It is easy for an engineer to become an economist or work in any business field. But it is close to impossible for a marketing type to become a physicist. After your mid-twenties, you can still have some room for maneuver if you don't have kids. After 35 (like I am), people have a very, very low probability of change. Doesn't happen. When it happens it's a miracle, like a disney movie.
You can always be a business type if you know math and logic and programming. Remember, information is power. Study, for example, data mining. Checkout project weka in your IDE and study the code, submit modifications, get an interesting thing done or two.
My advice to you? First, read freakonomics. The guy's an economist that works with data mining. He may very likely get the Nobel some day. Then you'll see how easy it is for a computer scientist to play business roles.
Finally, go to the most hardcore, most academically rigorous career first. Learn assembly language. Find a professor that's good and say these words to him/her: "I'm here because I want to do top-notch research during my undergraduate degree. Now go on and tell me what to do. I'm up for anything." At first, the professor will look you with some giant eyes. Months later, you will be on your way to writing REAL papers and understanding how real science is made. Fuck grades. Even if you graduate with loads of C's, one or two papers in academic journals will really set you apart. Tell your employers later on that you couldn't care less about grades because "they are made to be fair in a world that's not fair, and you wanted to do REAL work while on university, not the little clean academic assignments". That is hardcore maturity and courage. And if things go wrong and you want a change later on, all disciplines nowadays are needing data mining, from accounting to marketing to finance to operations management, etc. Weka is the new Excel.
I wish you good luck, brother.
Re:Business or Accounting (Score:5, Insightful)
To the poster, figure out what career you want and use that to plan out graduate work. You can always go back and get an MBA, even if you have a family and have kids. Harder? Maybe. But with work experience, you will get far more out of it.
Almost nobody does. (Score:2, Interesting)
Whether it's can't or won't is immaterial.
Re:Business or Accounting (Score:4, Insightful)
That's just a small sample of the outright age, class, gender and race bigotry you get to experience in academic environments. Remember, the responder is a professor. Consider the source.
He was right about how much easier it is to drop down into easy areas like business after doing a degree in something rigorous -- that actually trains you to think logically -- like engineering.
Remember, the responder is a business professor after having trained in CS. Case in point.
To the poster: remember that your academic advisors got where they are by being white, male, privileged-class blowhards -- and smarter than average, and specializing in "generating new knowledge" in some field.
Figure out who you have the most to learn from in the direction you want to go, and get what little you can out of them: some exposure to a new field, some experience doing original research, a recommendation and a piece of paper.
Good people are scattered across programs, and they are few and far between. It's your job to find someone you can work with, and who will further YOUR goals.
Your advisor will have a far greater influence on the outcome of your graduate studies than the choice of program. There are plenty of paint-by-numbers physicists who are basically doing the same work over and over, and will turn you into a lab rat who spends most of his time dickering with equipment suppliers, and there are psychology professors in cognitive who design truly inspired studies with a great deal of rigor to them. You can't even go by field as to where the really interesting and innovative work is being done.
Some things to watch out for: someone who doesn't have tenure yet will work you like an animal on their own projects and not care one bit about your goals or interests. The recently tenured will be focused on academic empire-building and may or may not care about your goals or interests. People in extremely prestigious programs may spend all of their time preening and winning awards and only needs students to supply them with narcissistic supply: if you can't stand kissing A, stay away from the most lauded people at the most prestigious programs.
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People in extremely prestigious programs may spend all of their time preening and winning awards and only needs students to supply them with narcissistic supply: if you can't stand kissing A, stay away from the most lauded people at the most prestigious programs.
Having worked with some of those people I'd say your over-generalizing. Chicago types, in particular, seem to thrive on discussion and really care less about who you are over what you know.
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Bullshit on people not being able to change after 30. Utter bullshit.
Call me up when some middle-age sociologist with a wife and kids type turns into a quantum physicist, with absolutely no previous background.
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Good to hear some advice counter to mine. As a computer geek and a former marine bio major, I regretted not getting a business minor in a big way. As any tech kid goes into college, what do you think about getting a minor in business or as mentioned prior, in accounting?
If you want to start your own business and can't do our own books, you're screwed.
Re:Business or Accounting (Score:5, Interesting)
Listen, kid. I'm a professor of business and management science. My masters and PhD are in Computer Science. There is a hidden rule in academic life: you cannot swim upstream. It is easy for a mathematician or a physicist to become an engineer. It is easy for an engineer to become an economist or work in any business field. But it is close to impossible for a marketing type to become a physicist.
Sure, for some values of upstream. I've yet to see a mathemetician become a good experimental pyhsicist. They can/often do become excellent theoretical physicists. Likewise with engineers. Mathematicians and physicists can become excellent engineers in some areas, not so much in others. But your main point stands that the flow is mostly one-way, though there is a bit of overlap between physics and engineering especially on the semiconductors and nano stuff.
Re:Business or Accounting (Score:5, Insightful)
What many of these HR types look at as a first criterion for consideration is your GPA. When they run their filter on GPAs, a 2.3 will get you disqualified before they ever see your list of 15 publications. Many recruiters (though not all) will, by corporate policy, automatically discard the resume of any student whose GPA is below a 3.5 without a moment's hesitation. Because, chances are, they will probably be able to find a student with a 3.5+ GPA and a publication or two.
So, yes, do research. Show your initiative. Work on interesting and innovative projects. But do not let your GPA go down the toilet in the process.
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Re:Business or Accounting (Score:5, Insightful)
I just graduated in December and was hired in January by a very large engineering/design/build firm (in the Fortune 500.) ... they prefer graduates with GPAs between 2.5 and 3.5, and that 3.9 or 4.0 students are often too difficult to work with in the office or field.
No offense, but most large companies like that thrive on mediocrity and the status quo, not innovation and ingenuity.
Large public companies need someone to make customers feel comfortable, maintain a giant existing code/technology base, and not rock the boat.
Startups and small companies (or the occasional large tech company trying to preseve its startup roots) need people who can think beyond what everyone else has already been doing and create something new. A bit of eccentricity is ok, and even encouraged, as long as they get results.
some students who keep a high GPA don't adjust as well to office life and field work as those who didn't spend all their time in the library.
Actually, my recollection is often the people who spent all of their time in the library tended to be the average students. A lot of the top students just didn't need to put in the same hours of studying to get by (or exceed).
Then again, I didn't just graduate in December - I have been working and hiring new grads in the industry for over 15 years...
Re:Business or Accounting (Score:4, Informative)
As it turned out, I had a friend that worked for a major tech company, one whose recruiters wouldn't give me an interview. My friend passed my resume on to his manager, and I was invited for an onsite interview with tech people. I got the job and started in May 2001.
Moral of the story (by my experience): Maintain a high GPA, because you'll most likely have to deal with HR recruiters that use it as a filter. But if you have friends or other inside connections, make use of them. Sometimes, it's not what you know, but who you know. Even in tech.
Re:Business or Accounting (Score:4, Interesting)
There fixed that for you.
pretty good advice (Score:5, Insightful)
I "washed out" of a PhD CS with an MSCS, and I think most of the parent poster's advice is good. Definitely the bit about not changing after 30 or so. Especially if you get married (or whatever) and have kids, your priorities and possibilities will change radically towards finding one good position and staying there.
I got my BSCS from a department that happened to be outstanding at the moment I went through, even though you've never heard of it. I then foolishly searched for a great CS department to do a CS PhD, (i) without first verifying that I really wanted a PhD and that it would be useful in the kind of work I really enjoyed, and (ii) failing to realize that it's not the department that counts at the graduate level, it's all about the one or two mentors you will have. My grad school has a good enough rep that everyone recognizes it, but the general departmental strategy was "throw everyone in the water and see who doesn't drown". I'm sure that worked for some, but I was completely lost for several years. In retrospect, I'd have been much better off identifying one good person to learn from and studying with them, even if it's at BFE Tech.
Based on that, I'd say that first you should think long and hard about what kinds of positions you'd like to have. If you can pinpoint people who are doing what you'd like to be doing, try asking them for advice.
Second, as the parent said, try to be doing something serious now, and try to identify specific people you'd like to apprentice under at a graduate level.
Good luck.
Me and My Friend Dumbo (Score:5, Interesting)
The advice about seeking out the teacher rather than the subject matches the single best piece of advice I received or handed out in my career. In fact, I used it to disprove the previous section regarding not swimming upstream.
While getting an MHA (that's an MBA for health care industry) I was given that advice by my professor. Later I attended a conference about "consciousness" at a small college. I witnessed the conference organizer trying very hard to come to an agreement with two others, clearly from different fields, what they meant by the word "energy". I had no idea who the guy was or what he did, but I knew I wanted to learn from him. It turned out he was Karl Pribram (neuroscience), the other two being Roger Penrose (physics) and Harold Liebowitz (then president of the National Academy of Engineering). What I wanted most was to learn from someone who worked that hard to turn science into shared knowledge. So I did; a year later I was in Karl's office, having just been admitted to his psychology master's program, telling him this story. No, his eyes didn't bug out. He took it to heart and taught me how to learn as well as everything he could about the field. I was 41. I got my PhD in neuroscience 7 years later. It could have been 6, but I was working on a very interesting project (tobacco as a preventative for Parkinson's, as mentioned in "Thank You For Smoking"). I was awarded non-competitive post-docs at NIH and Yale, finishing them at 50 and joining academia
Anybody can float down stream and most do. They'll tell you that's how it works. Fuck that noise. Swimming up stream makes you stronger. Worst that can happen is you fail and end up floating around with the other drifters. But I can tell you with the confidence of experience, an elephant can fly.
You're an outlier (Score:4, Insightful)
You sound like a very talented person that was capable of changing at such a late chapter in his life. Sure you don't know until you try. Just be prepared for the fallout; such as, $40,000+ in school debt in your mid forties with no job prospects, like me.
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Two points make your response utterly clueless.
First, you recommend the "Freakonomics" book. Levitt is a buffoon who abused false causality fallacies to score political points. Any grad student who has worked with statistics would know that.
Second, you recommend "fucking" grades. Again, this pretty much shows that you have no idea what you are talking about. Discipline matters and the grades you get in school show your discipline. All easy problems have been solved by now. Minesweeper has been refactored th
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YES YES YES. Get a business minor. If you start out on your own and you don't know the rules to business, you will be subject to them.
Re:If you are asking this question (Score:5, Insightful)
Actually, your attitude is part of the problem. We need more tech people moving into management. How else do we get the businesses, the community, and the world to understand and properly utilize technology without providing good technology leadership?
I've been working in this business for 20+ years and I'm considering an MBA focussed on managing tech. Better income? Probably (I hope). A chance to clean up the mistakes of the Neanderthals you speak of? Damn right!
Re:If you are asking this question (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:If you are asking this question (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:If you are asking this question (Score:5, Insightful)
No, management is about tracking risk, allocating resources, keeping the schedule, and keeping me out of politics. If a manager is making technical decisions something is horribly broken- the vast majority of the time they aren't qualified. If they are good enough to be making technical decisions they should be programming, not managing. That's what teammates and tech leads are for.
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I had the misfortune of seeing a train wreck in progress of a former sales guy brought in and appointed to manage a successful non-destructive testing section. His complete lack of technical skill in the area turned a sucess into a complete failure since he was unable to organise a work schedule and unable to organise profitable bids. The thing that threw o
Re:If you are asking this question (Score:4, Insightful)
Managers without technical backgrounds tend to be wilfully, aggressively ignorant, and they will always trust their fellow MBA's over the people such as the engineers and accountants who actually know what's going on.
Sanford: "You gotta finish high school if you gonna inherit my business."
Son: "I don't need arithmetic to run a junkyard".
Sanford: "You'll go broke."
Son: "I'll get a business manager."
Sanford: "Your business manager knows arithmetic and you don't? You gonna go broke."
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Here it is in C++:
#include
#include
void Tower(int n, int a, int b, int c){
if(n" c endl;
Tower(n-1, b, a, c);
}
}
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Hanoi? Didn't we evacuate Hanoi not too long ago? I'd grab the next helicopter out if I were you. Don't trust those tower construction methods out there.
Re:If you are asking this question (Score:5, Insightful)
For a price. So, MBA it is, then!
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An MBA is the most versatile, especially if you want to go into an industry other than computers (consulting, managing, etc). An MBA from a good school opens more doors than anything else.
That's not as true as in the past. http://dealbook.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/03/16/is-it-time-to-retrain-b-schools/ [nytimes.com]
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