Buying a Domain From a Cybersquatter 800
Nevo writes "A partner and I are in the planning stages of a business. We've decided on a name that we'd like to use but the domain name is already registered. The owner has a single 'search' page up (similar to the one at www.goggle.com)... clearly not a legitimate business interest, but since we don't own a trademark on this name it doesn't qualify as bad faith, I don't think. Does anyone have any experience buying domains from these operators? Do you have any advice on how to approach the owners of these domains to get them at a reasonable cost?"
Three pieces of advice (Score:5, Informative)
Here's a quick warning: there's a lot of scamming in the domain marktplace. It's easy for scammers to get you to buy, then never transfer the domain.
1. Set your PayPal account to draw against a credit card, not your bank account. You have both your credit card's consumer protections as well as PayPal's this way, the difference being you can actually get someone on the phone at your credit card company. When they yank the money from PayPal, suddenly PayPal will care.
2. Use an escrow service. Buyer puts the money in, you transfer the domain, and then you get paid. Most scams happen when people do direct purchases. Lots of domainers use escrow.com. It works.
3. Make sure you are dealing with a legitimate business or a real person. A little due diligence goes a long way.
How it's done - info from "the other side" (Score:5, Informative)
First of all what you are describing is not cybersquating - it's no trademark, not a domain typo - there is no bad faith. The domain has been registered by a domainer - a domain trader that buys premium domains treating them as an investment.
When you type in the domain name you will see a domain parking page - a website filled with some adds in order to earn some money to finance the cost of domain renewal plus sometimes a few bucks extra. The domain is not indexed by google - it's a mutual agreement between large domain parkings and google - not in index, yet with google ads.
As the domain is not registered as a clear example of cybersquating (and so is not getting a lot of traffic) you can be pretty sure it's for sale - that's where we earn money.
The domain value is based on (in no particular order): .com is the most expensive
1. domain length - the shorter the more expensive.
2. tld -
3. the acctual domain name - if it is just a bunch of unpronaucable letters it will be cheap, if it's a word it will cost ya, especially if it means something. some random examples ghdn.com < geen.com < geek.com
If you want to buy the domain make an offer, but a fair one or you will be added to ignore list after the first message. We get loads of offers which are too low by two-three orders of magnitude and reading all off them is not really an option.
Once you agree on the price do use one of the domain markets that offers escrow - sorry I can't really point you to a speciffic site, as I deal exlusively in eastern european tlds and we have some local markets.
Re:recent (Score:2, Informative)
but they are just trying to make some money.
So are extortionists. Oh wait, that's what they are. The front grill of a car is the only thing good enough for these idiots.
I wish like hell someone would so something about these idiots and start charging normal prices for these idiots to park all these domains. People don't realize, in most cases, these idiots haven't even purchased the domain names. Rather, they buy them in bulk, don't pay, let them go back, and buy them again. Their tactics are in line with the mob. They are only one step above that of spammers. Scam and scum is an understatement.
Re:Be Crafty - negotiate well. (Score:1, Informative)
Do you have to negotiate ?
do a whois lookup when does it end,
do not visit the site again and not bang up any stats collection on its popularity,
if the domain is not renewed get it normally
Be wary of godaddy.com as any whois lookup made on there site then that dom name is then registered to them so choose a registrar that is not going to screw you.
Patience might pay off
I ended up filing a case (Score:3, Informative)
It doesn't matter if it's bad faith or not, ICANN wants the domain to have a useful purpose. That's why people put the "search engines" up. However, the likelyhood of them showing up to defend their useful purpose is slim to none. The problem you have is that in order to file with ICANN for ownership of a domain, you need about $3000.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=icann+domain+dispute&l=1 [lmgtfy.com]
Last time I had to do it, it took about a month. This was last year. We filled out the paperwork, then our "dispute agency" (ICANN itself delegates to an agency) contacted us for MORE paperwork, then the other guy didn't reply because he had used an "anonymous registrar" so we won by default.
"clearly not a legitimate business interest"? (Score:1, Informative)
Really? How can you tell?
My company has a couple hundred domains that were purchased over time, for different projects, products, services & proposals. Not all of them are active, but when you're in the early planning stages, it's worth paying $7 to godaddy to get the domain before anyone else.
Lots of legitimate companies buy domain names for future use. The default for many registrars is to show a search page & some ads.
Re:How badly do you need that address? (Score:3, Informative)
I recently looked into a (cybersquatted) domain for a client. The squatter wanted $3000.00. We said, "Take a hike." Over the next few weeks I received unsolicited offers, each one for less money. Eventually the price went below 1K, then to make-an-offer.
I was determined that my client not give these scumbags any money, so I advised against making any offers, and finally told the scumbag, "No, seriously, take hike!"
My client went with an alternative that turned out to be a better choice because he was able to trademark it. The one he originally wanted was pretty generic and was already being used in commerce in several states by several companies.
The ability to trademark is one of the reasons that so many companies have begun using made-up words in their names. Doing so also takes cybersquatters out of the picture.
Re:I ended up filing a case (Score:3, Informative)
It doesn't cost $3000. It happened to a series of domains a company I worked for owned.. a squatter registered a bunch of similar sounding domains and started trying to get us to pay him money. Unluckily for him our CEO was an ex lawyer... ICANN awarded us every domain without question in about 3 weeks and as far as I know it didn't cost us a penny (in fact we started legal action against the squatter at the same time and it cost him a hell of a lot instead).
Re:Unfortunate (Score:5, Informative)
I appreciate the idealism here, but it isn't always so simple. We paid a squatter $3k for our domain when we really had better things to spend our money on; that was 5% of our start-up capital. We still regard it as the best investment we made. (Our original name was 25 characters and we got down to 7)
Just be sure to set up a backup domain name in case things fall through and to give yourself better bargaining position. I think he wanted $6k for it.
Another word to the wise-- don't make a domain extortion be your first purchase for a start-up. Sort out more important things first like getting clients. If your web presence is all you have going, things get harder.
Re:How it's done - info from "the other side" (Score:2, Informative)
If someone has bought a domain name to sell it with profit he will not consider any offers below $100-150 unless he has a bazilion domains registered by copy-pasting a whole english dictionary in mass domain registration form (and yes, there are folks who work that way). An average for a long domain name (6-7 letters+), not related directly to making money is $200-500. If it's business related the more money is to be made online the more will it cost.
Re:Make an offer (Score:5, Informative)
Resisting urge to curse
I've owned a domain name in .org that is my cat's name. It's been a personal domain since then. Someone registered the .net variant of it and then trademarked the name. The .com variant was parked for years by a third party. I did a backorder on the .com and got it, and registered it.
About a year later the guy with the .net started to threaten me because he got a trademark on the name and wanted both the .org and .com. I offered to turn over the .com at no profit to myself because I didn't really need it nor was using it, but then he starts to insist I also turn over the .org variant as well.
I stood my ground and threatened to fight him as much as it took in court if necessary and sent him numerous cases where trademark doesn't mean ownership of the corresponding domain, especially if that domain is in active use and was around before the trademark.
He eventually dropped his demand for the .org.
And to think I just let him have the .com at my cost as well. I should have just let it get snapped up by a squatter and he'd have spent thousands for it.
Re:Don't look big (Score:2, Informative)
For example:
If I send a mail from hotmail to gmail, something like the following is embedded in the headers:
(google.com: domain of myhotmailaccount@hotmail.com designates 12.34.56.78 as permitted sender)
If I traceroute 12.34.56.78, it resolves to a machine owned by my company.
Re:I disagree (Score:4, Informative)
Well, diamonds aren't really scarce. People horde them to make it seem as if they are.
Re:url? (Score:5, Informative)
Re:Be Crafty - negotiate well. (Score:3, Informative)
You could also try waiting till the domain expires and they have to renew and try to register it then before they do. That takes time and cunning skills.
There are so many people lined up to buy expiring domains that you really have to pay fees to a service [mikeindustries.com] that can pound the system with purchase requests to get one that way.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:3, Informative)
Let's suppose land is very cheap. There are a lot of valid businesses and families who would like to build offices and houses. Unfortunately, somebody with no interest in the land at all got there first, bought all the land, and is now selling it for a ten thousand times as much as he paid.
Sure, it's legal. Perhaps it's even a valid business. But he's still a scumbag because he's doing nothing productive other than costing people money who actually want to do something productive.
Re:Make an offer (Score:4, Informative)
A while back Madonna sezied madonna.com, which was used as a legitimate adult site,
Actually, while it had been used as an adult site in the past, when Madonna sued for it the site was simply squatting the domain. From the WIPO Complaint: [wipo.int]
But the most damning bit:
So IMHO, this guy was a squatter and deserved to have madonna.com taken away. It takes some brass balls to register wallstreetjournal.com :)
Re:Unfortunate (Score:3, Informative)
My co-worker is simply someone who could use some extra money (trust me, he doesn't make that much).
He did so by making a little bit off of advertising with some in-expensive real-estate (a domain name). Sometimes the real-estate has value to someone else, and he can make a little extra.
He didn't get rich off of it, but he was able to have a little bit of spending cash, and didn't cost anybody else significant money.
That was really my point, that a lot of this is just normal people looking for a little bit of beer/electronics money.
As to the real-estate analogies below, this is simply a lot of billboard space being valued more by someone else.
Re:Unfortunate (Score:4, Informative)
Speculation of any sort should be frowned upon in our society. I'm all for capitalisim and making a profit, but buying something just so you can turn around and sell it to someone else for more money, without having made any improvements is just jackassery.
While "speculators" are the current MostEvilThing (tm); they provide a valuable service to an economy.
Consider firms that hedge commodities that they use - if they can't add certainty to their costs through hedges they are at the mercy of market swings. In order to hedge, someone needs to take an opposite position - both sides are speculating on future prices; to reap a potential benefit.
Speculation is not the problem; the failure to quantify risks and understand what you are actually buying is what causes problems.
People buy many things - stocks, land, art, coins - as investments they hope will increase in value. Just because they stick them in a box and wait does not mean they are being jackasses.
Re:url? (Score:3, Informative)
sitting on a domain name unproductively with the intent to hope someone will come along and pay your ransom is not what most people consider legitimate business. while some URL's sell for high premiums because of the website behind it, or simply the value of the name itself (consider systemax's acquisitions of circuitcity and compusa URL, trademark, logo, etc.), this is not the case of many URL squatters who simply buy up every domain in sight, hoping one will make a payoff when a corporation takes interest.
If the owner hopes to invest in domain names, they should be expected to work the value of the name. but i disagree completely that a business hopeful with an actual use for a domain name should happily pay the extortion of a common domain thug.
Re:I disagree (Score:3, Informative)
You can disagree all you want, but you are still wrong.
Before responding, you might want to actually read the definitions.
Re:Make an offer (Score:1, Informative)
You can't register a trademark and then go back later to seize it. The current owners would be able to demonstrate prior use with a simple 'whois' showing the original date they registered the domain name.
Re:Make an offer (Score:2, Informative)
I registered a
Last year the company using the
I got to keep my domain, but it was annoying.
Re:Make an offer (Score:1, Informative)
I've owned a domain name in .org that is my cat's name. It's been a personal domain since then.
It's amazing how shitheaded businesses can get. They think, because they stand to make a dollar from something, that they have acquired a superior right to it.
One man registered veronica.org for his two tear old daughter of the same name. Archie comics tried first to get him to turn the domain name over to them at no cost because they have a character named Veronica. The owner of the domain refused. They finally gave up. From http://articles.latimes.com/1999/jan/20/business/fi-65256 [latimes.com]: "Although the official reason for Archie Comics' change of heart had nothing to do with public opinion, the company's decision was lauded by cyber-law experts."
Similarly The Laura Scudder company came after a woman in Marin county, CA, for naming her children's wear shop "Grammy Goose". It wasn't looking good for her until there was a campaign by a lot of well-to-do and activism-prone residents of Marin put together a boycott of all Laura Scudder products on store shelves. Laura backed down.
Re:Maybe use a subdomain? (Score:3, Informative)
We had a subdomain-based strategy for a while, but we have a few sites that targets a less than internet-savvy audience. We discovered that they don't understand subdomains at all. When given the name greatsite.blah.com, They'd try to visit greatsite.com, or greatsiteblah.com, or just blah.com.
We're transitioning all our sites to straight-up .coms from here on out.
Depending on your audience, and goals, this may be less important, but if you're hoping to draw in less technical crowds, a straight up www.example.com-type domain is the only way to go.