Working Off the Clock, How Much Is Too Much? 582
The Wall Street Journal has word of yet another suit against an employer who required an "always on" mentality to persist because of easily available communications. Most of us working in some sort of tech related job are working more than 40 hours per week (or at least lead the lifestyle of always working), but how much is too much? What methods have others used in the past to help an employer see the line between work and personal life without resorting to a legal attack? "Greg Rasin, a partner at Proskauer Rose LLP, a New York business law firm, said the recession may spawn wage-and-hour disputes as employers try to do the same amount of work with fewer people. The federal Fair Labor Standards Act says employees must be paid for work performed off the clock, even if the work was voluntary. When the law was passed in 1938, 'work' was easy to define for hourly employees, said Mr. McCoy. As the workplace changed, so did the rules for when workers should be paid."
Where do I begin (Score:5, Informative)
Oooo, an opportunity to whine! I'll start.
I don't mind working in the middle of the night if nagios wakes me up because something went wrong. Sure beats having to deal with it first thing in the morning. But what ticks me off is when I roll into work 30 minutes "late" the next day and it's like "Oh look, weave is rolling in late again."
But the big scam is comp time. Work after hours? Gotta take comp time. But then there's never an opportunity to use it, and if you do manage to use comp time, you don't get a chance to use all of your vacation time, and at the end of the year you lose unused vacation time. If you insist and take all of your comp time and vacation time, people are whining that you're always on leave and never around and then when projects don't get done, you get dinged on your performance eval.
Definition of work (Score:5, Informative)
It is quite easy to define 'work' for employees in any field in 2009. If management don't want perform the task themselves and someone e, then it's work.
Re:That's OK... (Score:3, Informative)
George: Right now, I sit around pretending that I'm busy.
Jerry: How do you pull that off?
George: I always look annoyed. Yeah, when you look annoyed all the time, people think that you're busy. Think about it... [puts on an annoyed face]
Elaine: Yeah, you do! He looks very busy!
Jerry: Yeah, he looks busy! Yeah!
George: I know what I'm doin.' In fact Mr. Wilhelm gave me one of those little stress dolls. All right, back to work. [puts on the annoyed face]
Re:Where do I begin (Score:3, Informative)
But then there's never an opportunity to use it, and if you do manage to use comp time, you don't get a chance to use all of your vacation time, and at the end of the year you lose unused vacation time.
Not in California. You lose sick time, but vacation time is essentially money in the bank. Either they have to give you the time off or else give you the balance in cash.
The Choice is Simple (Score:4, Informative)
Aside from that, they know the law and if they want something done bad enough to tap over 40 hours, they can pay time and a half, or decide that it can wait until tomorrow.
What I cannot imagine is how an employer can reasonably expect someone to work extra without pay except as part of a "lets keep it friendly and I might need you a little late every now and again and you'll want to ditch out a little early now and again and lets not make a federal case over it" mentality. If you had to contract out work to a plumber, per-se you'd instantly assume they would get paid hourly... period. What I understand even less is geeks who work insane hours knowing their company probably considers them at best, a necessary evil, full well knowing that it is the (legal) responsibility of the employer to either fund enough positions to get the hours of service they feel they need to cover, or fully expect to pay when they use the workers post 40 hour free-time.
I feel that if you are setting the employer's expectation that a technician (or whatever) is willing to work 60 hours' for 40's pay, you're harming all the technicans who do want to pursue outside interests on their own time, and when the day comes that you're ready to scale back to 40... you could have painted yourself into a corner.
Re:That's OK... (Score:5, Informative)
4t Tray Minimizer Free is the best piece of software ever.
So far my keys are mapped as such:
Alt-Control-H. Hide application. Not minimize or to the tray, but completely gone.
Alt-Control-R. Pop up the dialog to return an application.
(Shift-Control-* minimizes to the tray).
Not just useful for hiding slashdot, but for getting "mandatory" windows out of the way.
That plus my middle button (or is mapped to "Show Desktop") anytime I hear those footsteps, quick tap to the middle button and all that's up is my desktop.
Re:Where do I begin (Score:5, Informative)
I'll save you some time, there is no such law. Accrual rates can be capped even in employee friendly California.
On the other hand, Californians are protected from "use it or lose it" plans.
See here [ca.gov].
Try Government Contracting (Score:3, Informative)
If I have to stay late early in the pay period, I have to leave early later in the pay period. Working extra hours requires advance approval and enough paperwork that it is almost never done. My contracting company faces penalties if they let/force us to work "off the clock". I have been told that this is to prevent preferential treatment in future contract bids (it would not be fair if a company had a reputation for working more than they bill), but I don't know if that's the actual reason. I have also heard that it is because we are at a client site, and cannot work unless government people are there to babysit us, and they rarely work extra hours. Either way, I have a lot more free time, and better pay, compared to when I was in dot-coms.
Re:Where do I begin (Score:5, Informative)
I cant believe any of this is legal, you really do get totally screwed in the US with working conditions.
In Australia, all annual leave is cumulative, that is all untaken leave adds up. If you leave the employer it must be paid out in full.
Sick leave is cumulative too.
Annual leave is a minimum of 4 weeks and 2 weeks sick leave.
Why are such pathetic working condidtions tolerated?
US laws are not the best (Score:5, Informative)
Bingo. (Score:3, Informative)
I'll work overtime or after hours if the team really needs it, but I always expect to get paid. If they don't pay overtime, then I'll either arrive late the next few days, or leave early.
If they raise a huge stink about it, I'll start looking elseware. Even in todays job market, I can be gone in 3 or 4 months max. Never in a million years would I *not* be actively looking to bai.
I dont work for free and I suggest nobody else should. Nobody makes you work unpaid. You let yourself work unpaid and if you do, you are a coward fool for letting people walk over you. If they have a problem with you having a life outside of work, fuck em. If the job market sucks, mentally detach yourself from the job and spend every ounce of energy you have looking to bail at the first good opportunity.
But this is easy for me to say, I live in an area with a lot of tech jobs. If I lived in bum-fuck nowhere with only one tech firm around... I'd probably have to consider either moving or switching careers. Working unpaid is for chumps.
Re:Weapon (Score:3, Informative)
It's a reasonable trade-off between paying someone overtime or hiring another body. Don't want to hire another body, even though one's needed? Then pay overtime. Don't want to pay overtime? Then properly staff the project/job/whatever.
This is a management screw-up, not a worker screw-up.
Re:US laws are not the best (Score:1, Informative)
As much as I'd love to work in the EU, it isn't that easy. I seriously looked into it a few years ago (and still do from time to time) only to come to the conclusion that many EU employers really don't want Americans working there. They'd much rather take care of their own and employee EU residents. Sucks for me, but I do see the truth of it.
Re:Where do I begin (Score:3, Informative)
Sick time is distinguished from vacation time (in the US) to fairly manage unplanned and planned time off. If it was all sick time, then taking 3 weeks off with very little notice would disrupt business planning. If it was all vacation time, then time off from sickness would be useless if you needed to report it N number days in advance. There are exceptions. A few US companies only have PTO (paid time off) and require management approval before taking above some value N number of days.
Oh.. and as you mentioned, you would be stupid not to use it up throughout the year because if you wait until November (holiday season), you'll most likely not be able to use it all, particularly if you don't have seniority or you're on pager.
Side note. Many US companies have moved to an accrual method of doling out your vacation/sick/PTO days. For example, in January you may start out at 3 days and accrue 1 or 2 days per month. They do this to avoid paying you out your full year's worth of vacation time should you quit or be terminated, because at any given point in time between January and November, your accrued vacation time will be much lower than your maximum achievable on December 1st.
Re:Where do I begin (Score:5, Informative)
Never EVER trust a manager, even if you are friends. They will NOT go to bat for you.
Wow. Just wow. Is this, and the other manager-loathing screeds here just a measure of your own collective self distrust? If you were a manager, would you shed your character and cease to ever go to bat for a member of your team? Would you shed your humanity as if it were a lizard skin?
I think it's smart to have some perspective about the counter incentives in a corporate structure that operate against your own self interest. But if you go through life treating everyone in a management position as a thief and a cheat, you may create a self fulfilling prophesy. If you don't trust, you don't earn the basis for trust.
Says a manager who has:
1) gone to the house of a depressive employee who didn't show up for three days to see if he was OK and get him to a doctor,
2) gone head to head with a VP of HR who was hell bent on firing a junior kid for perceived sexual harrassment (poor choice of a password that someone read over his shoulder)
3) Helped an employee change divisions and towns to elude a stalker.
We're not all compulsively evil.
Re:Where do I begin (Score:3, Informative)
I'm glad you are not. However, in my experience, you are the minority.
1st Job: Retail IT: 1.5 years - My Manager was actively committing fraud. The Store, District, and Regional Managers didn't care because he wasn't defrauding the company but instead our vendors and it made their bottom lines look good. A head hunter shopped my resume to a potential employer without my knowledge. When they called to followup references the got my manager. In spite of my being on contract, with 5 months to go, my Manager lied to the Store Manager and said I had called in and quit. Imagine my surprise when when I showed up for work the next day.
2nd Job: Pseudo State Agency IT: 3 Years: - When Accounting/HR VP got in a turf war with the IT VP I became a casualty. In spite of being an A+ and MCSE Tech HR decided I did "Data Entry." This meant I would get no pay raises until my new reduced pay rate matched my current pay rate... which would take 13 years. For 9 months the IT VP did nothing while promising action only to finally said "It's not worth the political capital to correct it, you are just a tech, you are replaceable." As note I ws the first tech they had managed to hold onto for longer the 8 months... a trend that continued after my departure.
3rd Job: State Agency IT: 2 Years - Lucrative wiring contract ended up be given to my Managers Brother-in-law. After being 6 months behind schedule announces wiring job is done and I am supposed to sign off on it without testing. I refuse and follow testing protocol. 40%+ failure rate on all the wiring and discovered that even though top of the line commercial switches were paid for consumer grade switches were installed and daisy chained in an unstable configuration. My refusal to sign off on it resulted in me being censured and a poor performance evaluation.
My complaints to higher up were basically answered with "He's a manager and you are not, your opinion is irrelevant."
4th Job: University IT: 5 Years: Actually the best of the bunch. Boss was likable and work was low pressure. Boss was continuously on 1/2 time as he was taking a ton of continuing education classes. When he started talking about retirement, and I pointed out that if I was going to take over the Novell network I was going to need a different suite of certs and additional training... magically all of our training money was unavailable and continued to be unavailable for anyone but him. He also had a tantrum when I gave him 8 weeks notice that I was going back to school, basically not talking in anything monosyllable the entire time because he would actually have to do his job for the first time in 5 years.
Each of these are specific instances from each of my jobs, but I could fill pages with their self-serving behavior. Far more often I saw empire building instead of teamwork.
Re:US laws are not the best (Score:4, Informative)
The Japanese economy is even more fucked than the US economy. I don't think holding them up as an example is going to win you many converts.
He was talking about Japanese health insurance, however, which outperforms the US in just about every respect (cost, insurance coverage, life expectancy, child mortality, take your pick).