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Company Laptop, My Data — Can They Co-exist? 395

Posted by Soulskill
from the only-with-a-chore-schedule dept.
An anonymous reader writes "I recently replaced my old laptop. The owner of my company heard about this and offered to reimburse me for it, since he knows I have and will continue to do company work on my own hardware. I'd like the extra $1,250, but I think if I accept his offer that legally he has the right to any data on it (personal emails, files, blog posts, etc.). Even if I decide to put my personal stuff on a second drive, I'm worried that using company property to save and write to separate storage still gives them the right to it. The apps (Office, etc.) are my own licenses. We do not have a policy that intellectual property developed using company assets belongs to the company. But, if I figured out the One Great Internet Business Idea or write the Great American Novel and used the company laptop to do it, it's an avenue they could use to claim they own it. Unlikely, but scary. How many Slashdotters have been in this situation, and what agreement did you and your management come up with?"
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Company Laptop, My Data — Can They Co-exist?

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  • No, it cannot (Score:5, Informative)

    by Knara (9377) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:28AM (#29202427)

    If there's doubt, then you cannot.

  • That's easy. (Score:3, Informative)

    by nighty5 (615965) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:29AM (#29202455)
    No.
  • Easy (Score:3, Informative)

    by MyLongNickName (822545) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:29AM (#29202459) Journal

    Don't do it.

  • Re:Easy (Score:1, Informative)

    by Anonymous Coward on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:33AM (#29202555)

    Seriously, don't mix personal and work.
    You gotta be seven kinds of stupid to think it's a good idea to get the company to pay for your FAP machine.

  • by MartinSchou (1360093) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:36AM (#29202621)

    Nothing to it.

    Depending on the tax code where you live, something like this might be required anyway, as it'll be seen as either payment or benefits.

    So - go all out. Either have him add the cost of your laptop to your pay check as a one time bonus (bring a copy of the receipt so they can see the price), or have them buy the laptop and give it to you as a gift along with papers showing that it is indeed your laptop and not the company's.

    Personally I'd prefer the one time bonus. I'm buying the laptop anyway, I need it, and I'm effectively getting a company sponsored discount with none of the drawbacks.

  • by truthsearch (249536) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:41AM (#29202715) Homepage Journal

    Exactly. We've done this at my company. Take the laptop or cash as part of compensation and there will be no legal issues because it will become a personal possession and not the company's. Get it in writing so there's no debate.

    In the poster's particular case, receive the $1250 as a simple bonus. Have them write a letter backing that up.

  • by ThrowAwaySociety (1351793) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:41AM (#29202725)

    Exactly. Your company has three options.

    1. A payment in the amount of the computer. It goes not your income taxes as a bonus.
    2. They transfer ownershhip to you. It goes on your income taxes as non-cash compensation for the value of the computer. It is your property afterwards; they can't take it back when you quit.
    3. They issue you a company laptop. It remains their property; if you quit, you have to return it.

    For 1 and 2, the computer is yours, and you can do whatever you like. Just like your car and your TV, which were purchased with money from your paycheck. The company has no say in what you do with the computer afterwards. You could even immediately sell them on eBay (though they'd probably be unhappy and demand the money back, and might fire you if you refused to pay them.)

    For 3, you shouldn't do anything personal on it, nor should you install any of your own licensed software on it..

  • by A. B3ttik (1344591) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:41AM (#29202727)

    But, if I figured out the One Great Internet Business Idea or write the Great American Novel and used the company laptop to do it, it's an avenue they could use to claim they own it.

    I don't know what Company you work for, but MOST companies force you to sign a contract at time of employment that basically claims that anything you create while you are employed by the company is legally theirs. Any code you write, any works you produce they could technically sue you for if you suddenly turned around and actually made a decent bit of money off of them. Yes, this includes things you write in the middle of the night on a weekend on your personal computer.

    Does this mean they're going to try and claim your profits at the Church Arts and Crafts fair or try and claim they own the game you sell for $2 on your website? No. But they do this for several reasons. One is to protect their own asses... while you're busy coding at Adobe for their Great New Photoshop, you can't go home and use the ideas, even those YOU came up with at work, to create "Joe's Photomall" and suddenly turn around and start undercutting photoshop. Another reason is pure greed... if you suddenly have this great idea and write a 5kb Operating System that runs everything, it's THEIR great idea if you actually coded it while you were employed under them and _they_ get the rights to it, not you.

    Yes, there have been cases where this has come up, and it is usually up to the (ex)employee to prove that they created the code or whatever either before or after they were under employment.

    Just an FYI... I would check up on your contracts if you think this may be a problem.

  • by tepples (727027) <<moc.liamg> <ta> <selppet>> on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:42AM (#29202739) Homepage Journal

    Asking legal questions on an Slashdot forum is like asking 4chan for relationship advice.

    I see legal questions in Ask Slashdot as more of a "What should I know before talking to a lawyer?" type of question.

  • Re:Easy Solution (Score:5, Informative)

    by Anonymous Cowar (1608865) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:43AM (#29202761)
    Speaking as someone with experience in the digital forensics field (and I have personally done far more than e-mail forensics mentioned above), if the courts find out that you do company work on your personal laptop, you are a subpoena away from having to produce it, with or without the $1,250 bonus. If you brought a personal external hard drive into work one day and someone saw you use it, you could have to produce that. Depending on how good your lawyer is compared to theirs, you may be able to have your personal items undergo a privilege process, but that doesn't mean that some forensics expert isn't going to be taking a complete copy of your hard drive and presenting findings about (but not the actual relevant data until approved or ordered by the courts) your laptop usage.

    Essentially if you get sued by your employer, it looks better if you just spread em wide and hope for the vaseline. There is no 'innocent until proven guilty' in civil courts, it's all about the 'preponderance of evidence' which means that if you can't say more about your innocence than they can about you're guilt, you're guilty.
  • by TheRaven64 (641858) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @11:47AM (#29202841) Journal
    That means it's taxable. If they make it an expenses item, then it isn't[1]. If you are using it for 80% work and 20% personal use then you can probably either get them to pay 80% of it under expenses or you can just offset 80% of the cost against tax. Alternatively, the company could buy the laptop and then lease and finally sell it to you for a nominal fee (say, $1/year with the option to buy for $1 after the first year).

    [1] I am not an accountant, this varies depending on jurisdiction, for your jurisdiction this may be entirely wrong. Shake well before opening, keep refrigerated.

  • NO! (Score:5, Informative)

    by Aladrin (926209) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @12:00PM (#29203113)

    Do -not- use personal equipment for company use.

    Okay, I admit I do it. I have a $20 keyboard and $15 mouse that I brought in. But if something happened and I never saw them again, 'oh well'. They don't store any data, and they have no value other than their replacement value.

    A laptop? Are you insane!?

    Take the $1250, the company now owns the laptop. Do your personal stuff on a computer you actually own.

    KEEP THEM SEPARATE.

  • by houghi (78078) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @12:08PM (#29203271)

    If he gives you money to buy the PC, who does it belong to? If it is yours, then they have no say on it. If it is theirs, then they might have a say in it.
    Ask HIM what the situation is by email. That way you have a trace if anything goes sour in two years or so. The worst that can happen is that he decides that it is THEIR machine. At least then you know what the situation is.

    I would think that if they are willing to give you that amount of money, they will also be willing to answer any questions you have about it.

    A solution depends also on what rights you have on that PC. If you have admin rights, you could use encryption. As it is a Portable, you could use encryption anyway. That way when you loose the machine or it is stolen, the company data is secure as well.

    Make either a separate encrypted partition for yourself or use the hidden part of Truecrypt for your own files. That way you can even give the sysadmin of the company the login, in case you are hit by a bus.
    That way your data is secure and private, while the companies is secure as well.

    If you do not have the admin rights (and don't want to hack them) then an external drive and/or USB stick can be the answer. e.g. at home an external drive for everything and a USB stick for on the road.

  • Re:Simple... (Score:3, Informative)

    by berwiki (989827) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @12:09PM (#29203285)
    Sorry, our network policy forbid this, and our firewall blocks most outgoing ports besides the basics.
    Sure, I could tunnel it through port 80, but at that point, I literally provide my employer with a reason to fire me if I do anything to piss them off.
    No Thanks.
  • by ottothecow (600101) <ottothecow@gmCOMMAail.com minus punct> on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @01:18PM (#29204339) Homepage
    There isn't a lot of information but unless there are strings specifically attatched to the reimbursement, it is just that--a reimbursement.

    I imagine this is quite similar to employers who do mobile phone or internet reimbursements in that they are offering it as a benefit and there is no transfer in ownership (though there may be some assumption of increased availability to work outside the office). When an employer reimburses you for personal vehicle use, they aren't claiming ownership on anything in your car...

  • by cyber-dragon.net (899244) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @01:31PM (#29204529)

    This is the most accurate I have seen.

    I had for a year and a half a phone and plan which were payed for by the company through reimbursements, but in my name. When I walked out the door I simply took it with me as the company had no claim to it.

    This is why companies favor blackberries and things with remote wipe functionality so it is not a danger.

  • Re:Easy (Score:3, Informative)

    by cyber-dragon.net (899244) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @02:26PM (#29205433)

    And then you are held in contempt of court at a MINIMUM when you can't produce the data the company can prove you have, possibly jailed for destruction of company property. Your home and car are searched while you sit in a cell and it's all perfectly legal.

    Oh and that email you sent with your idea? Better hope you can prove it came from some other machine and that they don't have another email with a time stamp showing you were working at that time.

    The laws right now are NOT in your favor, no matter what you do. Judges are not incredibly fond of smart-asses who try and explain away such "losses" either. As someone who does work in forensics and testifies in trials as an expert witness for such things, I will go out of my way to protect the person and their privacy up until I see something like a pristine laptop coming back, in which case I just say "He's obviously destroyed evidence."

  • by Eil (82413) on Wednesday August 26, 2009 @04:46PM (#29207841) Homepage Journal

    #4, Why not use a USB stick as a complete Ubuntu workstation?

    Where the OS is loaded from or where data gets saved is irrelevant. If the company's position is that it owns the laptop, and an employee uses it to create something, the company can reasonably argue in court that it owns the created work.

  • Re:Simple... (Score:3, Informative)

    by duffbeer703 (177751) on Friday August 28, 2009 @08:20PM (#29238227)

    The piece of paper that says "we reserve the right to search you" means nothing. Neither does the sign next to the pool that says "you swim at your own risk".

    I visited a big tech company once where they shoved an NDA and some bs consent to search agreement at us upon arrival. I ripped it in half and we marched out. Some SVP came out to apologize and we had our meetings, sans NDA and without being frisked. We negotiated a hell of a deal too.

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