Company Laptop, My Data — Can They Co-exist? 395
An anonymous reader writes "I recently replaced my old laptop. The owner of my company heard about this and offered to reimburse me for it, since he knows I have and will continue to do company work on my own hardware. I'd like the extra $1,250, but I think if I accept his offer that legally he has the right to any data on it (personal emails, files, blog posts, etc.). Even if I decide to put my personal stuff on a second drive, I'm worried that using company property to save and write to separate storage still gives them the right to it. The apps (Office, etc.) are my own licenses. We do not have a policy that intellectual property developed using company assets belongs to the company. But, if I figured out the One Great Internet Business Idea or write the Great American Novel and used the company laptop to do it, it's an avenue they could use to claim they own it. Unlikely, but scary. How many Slashdotters have been in this situation, and what agreement did you and your management come up with?"
Simple... (Score:2, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
You're using their bandwidth if you do this. Ergo, you are still using company resources. I have been in a similar situation. Nutshell solution for me? Just keep as you are, don't accept the $$. If they want you to back up your work, have them shell out for an external drive and backup the corporate work there, and only the corporate work.
Re:Simple... (Score:4, Interesting)
There is well established precedence that fired employees must be given time to remove personal items from the office, company car, company apartment etc... This may have been derived from the rules governing eviction of a tenant.
Nobody (as far as I know) has sought to apply the same rule, either to data on a company drive or a personal drive in a company computer.
maybe not that simple... (Score:3, Insightful)
First you need to prove it is yours (onus on you, at the spur of that moment - so tape the receipt to the drive) - to the person walking you out, with you while you grab your personal stuff. Secondly, they will want to remove any company from the drive, and won't take your word for it that there ain't none. So the now pissed off IT slave will scrape through your personal stuff anyway...
Many companies sort out what's yours and theirs after walking you out, so you're short on luck in that scenario.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
You've made it easier to separate, but you still haven't proven it doesn't belong to the company.
Makezine: "If you can't open it, you don't own it."
Re:Simple... (Score:5, Interesting)
>>>There is well established precedence that fired employees must be given time to remove personal items from the office, company car, company apartment etc.
>>>
Is there? When my contract expired a year ago, General Dynamics didn't even let me inside the building. Instead they carried everything out to me, and as it turned-out some items were missing, like the award I got from my previous employer Lockheed. They even went so far as to keep my music CDs and MAIL them back to me "after they were scanned" one week later. I threatened to call the local police, but it had no effect to change their minds.
Perhaps you better rethink your plan, because you might NOT get a chance to reclaim your personal hard drive from your desk (or wherever you store it).
Re:Simple... (Score:5, Insightful)
I threatened to call the local police, but it had no effect to change their minds.
And you didn't WHY? Throwing empty threats around like that does nothing but make it harder for those of us who really WILL call the cops to get any justice.
Re:Simple... (Score:5, Insightful)
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
The piece of paper that says "we reserve the right to search you" means nothing. Neither does the sign next to the pool that says "you swim at your own risk".
I visited a big tech company once where they shoved an NDA and some bs consent to search agreement at us upon arrival. I ripped it in half and we marched out. Some SVP came out to apologize and we had our meetings, sans NDA and without being frisked. We negotiated a hell of a deal too.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Sure, I could tunnel it through port 80, but at that point, I literally provide my employer with a reason to fire me if I do anything to piss them off.
No Thanks.
Re:Simple... (Score:5, Insightful)
Good advice. Most places don't let you access the outside world except via the HTML browser.
I would take the ~$1300 if my boss wants to reimburse me for my laptop. I never turn-down money, and realistically I'm just an average schlub like everyone else. I'm NOT going to write the next great american novel. I'd just make sure that if I have any personal data, like pics of my kids, to offload it onto my home PC or a separate USB drive.
And of course keep silent. The boss doesn't need to know everything I type into his laptop. If I create a PS3 emulator, he doesn't need to know about it. Just offload it to my home PC and he'll never know it existed.
Have them make it a bonus (Score:5, Interesting)
Re:Have them make it a bonus (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly. We've done this at my company. Take the laptop or cash as part of compensation and there will be no legal issues because it will become a personal possession and not the company's. Get it in writing so there's no debate.
In the poster's particular case, receive the $1250 as a simple bonus. Have them write a letter backing that up.
Re:Have them make it a bonus (Score:5, Interesting)
No, why did you think that? They didn't buy the laptop for you and hand it to you and say "this is your company laptop", you bought a laptop yourself, put all of your own software and hardware into it, and the company offered to reimburse you for it. Did they say "this is now our laptop, and when/if you leave it's ours"? I'd get it in writing just to make sure, I could see that as being a potential problem, especially if they document it somewhere "reimburse XYZ for laptop", someone might come looking for it someday.
"receive the $1250 as a simple bonus. Have them write a letter backing that up."
Agreed. Helps the company really because they don't have to pay for the software or worry about licensing, if you have unlicensed software on there they can say "Really? We wouldn't know, it's not company property."
In fact I'd approach it like that, I'd tell'em "Hey Boss just to make the paperwork easier so you don't have to keep track of the Office, Vista, Photoshop, etc licenses on my laptop can we write it up as a $1250 bonus? That way there isn't a $1250 check for a laptop and the company would not be responsible for keeping track of the software licenses."
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
My advice to OP: don't do it, even if you get it in writing. Even if you trust your boss. Even if it feels safe. The tide can shift in a snap, and you don't want to have to share ownership of all of your stuff when Sprint or Microsoft buy your company.
I disagree completely here; it makes little sense to turn down the money. It's your laptop, and you have the documentation to prove it. As a responsible computer user, you can backup all the personal data / media / software you care about on a home computer. If the very unlikely happens and you find the company has somehow superseded your clear ownership rights, the worst case scenario is that you lose a laptop for which you have already been reimbursed.
That seems extremely unlikely to happen, considering i
Re:Have them make it a bonus (Score:5, Informative)
I imagine this is quite similar to employers who do mobile phone or internet reimbursements in that they are offering it as a benefit and there is no transfer in ownership (though there may be some assumption of increased availability to work outside the office). When an employer reimburses you for personal vehicle use, they aren't claiming ownership on anything in your car...
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
This is the most accurate I have seen.
I had for a year and a half a phone and plan which were payed for by the company through reimbursements, but in my name. When I walked out the door I simply took it with me as the company had no claim to it.
This is why companies favor blackberries and things with remote wipe functionality so it is not a danger.
Re:Have them make it a bonus (Score:5, Informative)
Exactly. Your company has three options.
1. A payment in the amount of the computer. It goes not your income taxes as a bonus.
2. They transfer ownershhip to you. It goes on your income taxes as non-cash compensation for the value of the computer. It is your property afterwards; they can't take it back when you quit.
3. They issue you a company laptop. It remains their property; if you quit, you have to return it.
For 1 and 2, the computer is yours, and you can do whatever you like. Just like your car and your TV, which were purchased with money from your paycheck. The company has no say in what you do with the computer afterwards. You could even immediately sell them on eBay (though they'd probably be unhappy and demand the money back, and might fire you if you refused to pay them.)
For 3, you shouldn't do anything personal on it, nor should you install any of your own licensed software on it..
Re: (Score:2)
nor should you install any of your own licensed software on it..
Why? Other than privacy, which you shouldn't count on with your company laptop, I can't really see an issue. The only thing might be a policy to disallow this, but his employer doesn't sound like care that much.
Is there some legal issue I can't understand? Installation of a program on a company laptop would not imply transfer of ownership/license and I would think the company would be responsible to remove the software once it is returned to the IT dept, freeing up your license (although I would proba
Re: Another option, #4 (Score:5, Interesting)
#4, Why not use a USB stick as a complete Ubuntu workstation? Here are instructions to make a stick that will either run in a QEMU window on a host Windows OS, _or_ you can simply boot-up directly into Ubuntu?
http://www.pendrivelinux.com/all-in-one-pendrivelinux-2008/ [pendrivelinux.com]
So you can have your cake and eat it too. During work hours, just insert your USB stick when you need access to your own PC.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
...not in our company :) All USB boot options are firmware disabled, as well as booting from any CDs. If the default specified HDD doesn't boot, someone from support with a BIOS password has to get in and reset the machine to enable this, and the BIOS settings are editable by a software app from within windows to re-disable this feature once an image is installed.
on many systems across the company, the USB ports are disabled entirely. generally, only execs and select machines in the suppoort areas have U
Re: Another option, #4 (Score:4, Informative)
Where the OS is loaded from or where data gets saved is irrelevant. If the company's position is that it owns the laptop, and an employee uses it to create something, the company can reasonably argue in court that it owns the created work.
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
[1] I am not an accountant, this varies depending on jurisdiction, for your juris
An easier solution (Score:5, Insightful)
Don't *put* your data on it. (Score:3, Funny)
Use online web stuff.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
But for heaven's sake, if you insist on keeping your stuff
Re:Don't *put* your data on it. (Score:4, Funny)
Right! Don't give your data to your company, give it to google! :-)
Re:Don't *put* your data on it. (Score:4, Funny)
Right! But keep the cache around for your company!
Re:Don't *put* your data on it. (Score:5, Funny)
My company IS Google, you inconsiderate clod!
Reading Slashdot is, uh.. my 20% time.
Easy Solution (Score:5, Interesting)
Unlikely, but scary.
Your fears are not unfounded. As someone who has had "e-mail forensics" done on his company's MS Exchange during an investigation of a coworker, I can assure you that while it may not be something that you've done to trigger this it does happen. And nobody wants to be in a compromising position should their relationship with their employer goes bad.
So your solution is simple: send him an e-mail explaining that this new laptop is going to function as your main personal laptop with family photos and videos and whatnot. Tell him that you'd love to accept the $1,250 as an award or included with your next paycheck as special compensation but the laptop won't be inventoried or tagged by the company. Make it clear it's your property and not a company asset. Offer to bring in the invoice for him to look at if he's concerned you're buying a car with it instead and get it in writing. If you get the money awarded to you to do with as you see fit but you have an informal agreement that this will go toward your personal laptop, everything should be fine.
Re: (Score:2)
Unlikely, but scary.
Your fears are not unfounded.
What he said!
I do not even let the company pay for my cell phone. Just make sure my paycheck covers what I do for the company.
Re:Easy Solution (Score:5, Informative)
Essentially if you get sued by your employer, it looks better if you just spread em wide and hope for the vaseline. There is no 'innocent until proven guilty' in civil courts, it's all about the 'preponderance of evidence' which means that if you can't say more about your innocence than they can about you're guilt, you're guilty.
Re:Easy Solution (Score:5, Insightful)
So your solution is simple:
Yes, it is. However, I'd offer that the solution is different than what you suggest. The simplest thing to do would be, have your employer buy you ANOTHER $1250 laptop expressly for work. Problem solved. Now you have an "air gap" between your life, and work life.
Why complicate things?
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Presumably, he would prefer having an extra $1,250.00 of discretionary money rather than having two laptops. It's not a cut-and-dry scenario.
It is cut-and-dry. You don't tell the boss about laptop number 2 because it's none of his business. It's like buying any other item for your personal use, like a box of condoms. Must that nosy boss know about everything I do outside of work?
No, it cannot (Score:5, Informative)
If there's doubt, then you cannot.
That's easy. (Score:3, Informative)
Easy (Score:3, Informative)
Don't do it.
Re: (Score:2)
Make the laptop minus its hard dusk, business.
The hard disk, you replace with your own. I am working on such a laptop.
If the company wants their laptop, and its data, they get the old HD with the pristine
software install. NOT my hard disk, that I paid for.
( it was dirt cheap, and I can do the sway myself ).
If they suponea it, I drop my hard disks in battery acid.
OPPS. Sorry, I lost all my data...( offsite back ups? I may know who has them, but certinally not where...)
And e
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
And then you are held in contempt of court at a MINIMUM when you can't produce the data the company can prove you have, possibly jailed for destruction of company property. Your home and car are searched while you sit in a cell and it's all perfectly legal.
Oh and that email you sent with your idea? Better hope you can prove it came from some other machine and that they don't have another email with a time stamp showing you were working at that time.
The laws right now are NOT in your favor, no matter what yo
Don't do it. (Score:2, Insightful)
I wont even allow my company to reimburse me for flash drives for this reason. It's way better to be safe when it comes to your personal data.
What tracking is on your laptop??? (Score:2)
Re:What tracking is on your laptop??? (Score:5, Insightful)
Aren't they cute when they are young and so naïve?
Re: (Score:2)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melissa_virus [wikipedia.org]
Still, it would be a real scumbag thing to do. Especially if the correct agreements are vague or nonexistent, not to mention if the OP's work is not related whatsoever to the product in question.
But really, what could possibly happen in the legal world that would surprise a
Re: (Score:2)
Office tags its documents with an ID that can be used as a tracer.
Except - the copy of Office that the OP is using is *his own copy*. Ownership of the app is not at question here, only the laptop.
Re: (Score:2)
slashdot is not your lawyer (Score:5, Insightful)
You need to ask a lawyer. His answer will depend, at least in part, on documents you have signed as part of your employment, and on state law.
Personally, I know my company is too confused to ever go after me, my data, and my ideas after I leave, so long as I don't compete directly with them. I don't worry about their supposed ownership of my every thought and dream, despite signing those rights over to them.
Re:slashdot is not your lawyer (Score:5, Funny)
Please mod this up. Asking legal questions on an Slashdot forum is like asking 4chan for relationship advice.
Re:slashdot is not your lawyer (Score:5, Informative)
Asking legal questions on an Slashdot forum is like asking 4chan for relationship advice.
I see legal questions in Ask Slashdot as more of a "What should I know before talking to a lawyer?" type of question.
Re:slashdot is not your lawyer (Score:5, Funny)
Funny, I see asking 4chan for relationship advice as more of a "What should I know before talking to a lawyer?" type of question.
Re:slashdot is not your lawyer (Score:4, Funny)
It can work. TubGirl and I have been together for three years now. Sure, we've got to replace our linens more often than your average couple, but what relationship is without its problems? Overall it's going better than I could have hoped!
Re:slashdot is not your lawyer (Score:4, Insightful)
Asking a lawyer defeats the point. (Score:2)
There goes your $1250.
If the laptop is to be owned by the company, get something in writing or at least a verbal contract. If your boss is good enough to offer you hardware for your dedicated service, he doesn't sound like the kind of guy to stab you in the back with it.
A better idea would be a direct payment or at least a voucher towards a personally-owned but for work purposes laptop. ("Here's $1000. Spend as much as you want over that amount towards the system you'd like best.")
Use the cloud (Score:2)
Sounds like a good argument for cloud computing. My gmail account stays off my company laptop except for the browser cache which can easily be cleared. I think they would have a hard time proving I crafted a genius email using the browser on their laptop.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm not sure that issue applies here. What google did is reveal the owner of the account. The issue here is whether the account usage can be traced back to a particular laptop. Unless gmail is sniffing for system details, the only thing they have is the IP address.
It's their property? (Score:2)
I was always warned about working on personal projects using work equipment. I was told that my company can claim the project as their own since I used their equipment to develop it, which sounds plausible. Where or not it's really true is another matter.
Or was it that I shouldn't be working on personal projects during work time?
Run your personal stuff in a VM.. (Score:2)
When you are 'done' with your job you can either delete the VM or move it to your personal computer.
Clean, easy.
Check your contract (Score:2)
He may just have access to it anyhow, in which case..take the money and run.
Don't do it (Score:5, Insightful)
Do everything in your power to keep your data and theirs separate. In fact I'd even recommend you stop doing their work on your hardware.
If they want to provide you with a company machine then let them.
Re: (Score:3, Interesting)
That's the policy we adopted. As a rule it was decided that you don't work from home - even a remote connection to the work machine was decided as a no-go, despite the obvious advantages it would have (I've had several time I've gotten a call saying "The email is down" - when I drove 30 minutes to the office to do 2 minutes worth of work and then drive back home). Being in government work, it was decided that if the IT staff had remote access to work systems, that it could legally open us up to FOIA reque
Why chance it for 1K? (Score:2)
treat it like a car allowance (Score:2)
Many companies give employees an allowance to cover the expense of using their own car for business. Tell your boss you want this done the same way.
The other way around (Score:2, Interesting)
At my previous company, we went the other direction...no personal equipment was allowed. If you needed a tool (e.g. a laptop), it was provided.
We didn't want the liability of damage or theft of someone's personal equipment. Further, we didn't want to deal with things like users bringing in tools that impact the network, we didn't want to have any issues with software licensing (who provides or you bring in non-licensed software), etc. We also had problems with people bringing in things like printers and
Don't use personal property for work (Score:3, Insightful)
It creates an expectation that you will provide your own tools in every circumstance, and you shouldn't be subsidizing your company in any case. Create a line between your personal and business life or you will find that your personal life will erode away. That isn't fair to you or those in your personal life. No matter how much you love your job, it's still just a job at the end of the day. Don't be a sucker.
Get a contract that states it's 100% yours. (Score:3, Informative)
Nothing to it.
Depending on the tax code where you live, something like this might be required anyway, as it'll be seen as either payment or benefits.
So - go all out. Either have him add the cost of your laptop to your pay check as a one time bonus (bring a copy of the receipt so they can see the price), or have them buy the laptop and give it to you as a gift along with papers showing that it is indeed your laptop and not the company's.
Personally I'd prefer the one time bonus. I'm buying the laptop anyway, I need it, and I'm effectively getting a company sponsored discount with none of the drawbacks.
Why not a second laptop (Score:3)
Why not take the $1250, buy a second, identical laptop for personal use and set up an external drive that you could use to sync files between the two if necessary (or even a shared drive for professional purposes)?
If you go this route, make sure you never accidentally put personal stuff on the professional laptop.
Re: (Score:2)
Reimbursed as bonus? (Score:2)
Bonus (Score:2)
So long as there's 1) no contract to spell things out clearly and 2) the computer is "theirs", there will always be the risk of someone claiming the data on it is owned by them, not you. You
Easy answers (Score:2)
I have and will continue to do company work on my own hardware ...
There's your problem.
Tell your employer they can have it one of two ways: either (a) provide you enough hardware to do your job, or (b) the contents of your laptop of yours, not theirs. Any other approach leads to trouble with sorting out who has copyright on what that will cost them far more than $1250 in legal expenses.
TC... (Score:2)
Make a Truecrypt folder, ideally 4GBish so can be backed up onto a DVD.
Now setup your Thunderbird email profile on the Truecrypt folder ("Thunderbird -profilemanager" allows you setup a new TB profile), and ditto for Firefox profile. Note that Thunderbird and Firefox programs are still installed on machine per normal, it's just the profiles that a separate.
Now your private stuff is private...
Re: (Score:2)
Ah yes, implementing a technical solution to a social problem. That's always a winner.
Subject (Score:3, Insightful)
I think the real question is why you're asking Slashdot instead of sitting down with your boss and hashing these issues out directly.
I have done this (Score:2)
Sorry, you're already screwed on that front. (Score:3, Informative)
But, if I figured out the One Great Internet Business Idea or write the Great American Novel and used the company laptop to do it, it's an avenue they could use to claim they own it.
I don't know what Company you work for, but MOST companies force you to sign a contract at time of employment that basically claims that anything you create while you are employed by the company is legally theirs. Any code you write, any works you produce they could technically sue you for if you suddenly turned around and actually made a decent bit of money off of them. Yes, this includes things you write in the middle of the night on a weekend on your personal computer.
Does this mean they're going to try and claim your profits at the Church Arts and Crafts fair or try and claim they own the game you sell for $2 on your website? No. But they do this for several reasons. One is to protect their own asses... while you're busy coding at Adobe for their Great New Photoshop, you can't go home and use the ideas, even those YOU came up with at work, to create "Joe's Photomall" and suddenly turn around and start undercutting photoshop. Another reason is pure greed... if you suddenly have this great idea and write a 5kb Operating System that runs everything, it's THEIR great idea if you actually coded it while you were employed under them and _they_ get the rights to it, not you.
Yes, there have been cases where this has come up, and it is usually up to the (ex)employee to prove that they created the code or whatever either before or after they were under employment.
Just an FYI... I would check up on your contracts if you think this may be a problem.
Re: (Score:2)
MOST companies force you to sign a contract at time of employment that basically claims that anything you create while you are employed by the company is legally theirs.
These aren't always enforceable, and I certainly never signed one.
One is to protect their own asses... while you're busy coding at Adobe for their Great New Photoshop, you can't go home and use the ideas, even those YOU came up with at work, to create "Joe's Photomall" and suddenly turn around and start undercutting photoshop.
Then they should put a noncompete clause in -- which still isn't always enforceable.
In any case, this is why I read the more important contracts (like employment), and strike the stuff I don't agree with.
Re: (Score:2)
More an issue of ownership. (Score:2)
Your company owner sounds like a good person, offering to reimburse your purchase. It sounds like he surprised you and now you're trying to decide whether you want to retain ownership of the laptop or sign it over to the company.
For the company owner, it would be a no brainer because he owns the company that would own the equipment. For you, there are more questions about relinquishing ownership.
1) Will you have to return the laptop if you leave the company?
2) Will the company's IT staff have to maintain th
get a second laptop (Score:2)
Business and pleasure don't mix. Have your boss buy you a laptop which you only use for work-related purposes.
Um, dude.. (Score:2)
Simple solution (Score:2)
Encrypt everything.
Re: (Score:2)
I'd say.....go for it. (Score:2)
I'd say let them reimburse you for the laptop, then take the $1250 and grab another one (or a really nice netbook and pocket the change) for personal use. If you leave the company and they ask for the laptop, oh well. If they don't, you have an extra laptop. If you insist on having personal data on a machine used for work, then use truecrypt for your personal files.
A netbook wouldn't add much weight to your bag either.
That's my opinion. I'm stuck using my personal laptop as my employer won't cover one b
Loan (Score:3, Interesting)
2 laptops? (Score:2)
If it's more convenient to use your work laptop for personal use, but only on occasion, you can always copy your files to your personal computer when you're able and then use a program like Eraser to clean up your work drive.
Nonsense. (Score:2)
If you total or wear out your personal car because of your work, and your employer offers to pay for the replacement, he doesn't magically get title to it. He *replaced*
How I solved the issue... (Score:2, Interesting)
Wouldn't do it (Score:2)
NO! (Score:5, Informative)
Do -not- use personal equipment for company use.
Okay, I admit I do it. I have a $20 keyboard and $15 mouse that I brought in. But if something happened and I never saw them again, 'oh well'. They don't store any data, and they have no value other than their replacement value.
A laptop? Are you insane!?
Take the $1250, the company now owns the laptop. Do your personal stuff on a computer you actually own.
KEEP THEM SEPARATE.
Take the money. (Score:2)
Then use the money to buy yourself another laptop, so you can use it exclusively for personal stuff and the company-reimbursed one for work purposes.
Comment removed (Score:3, Informative)
What about a bonus? (Score:3, Insightful)
Worked out bad with a cell phone (Score:5, Insightful)
Separate what you're doing. (Score:4, Interesting)
If you're really doing something of value on your own, be very serious about keeping your own work and your employer's work separate. When I did this, the work I was doing at home was on a different kind of computer than I used at work, in a different subject area. I even used a different color of scratch pad for my own work (yellow for the employer, green for my own work). For the employer's work, I used blue pens; for my own work, black pens of a different brand. No paper or media associated with my own work ever entered the employer's premises.
This is a hassle. It is far less hassle than the litigation required to untangle things if you succeed at what you're doing.
It worked out very well for me, and I was able to retire before I was 40.
Re: (Score:2)
I'm pretty sure he understands that. His concern is that accepting the offer may be interpreted as signing away his rights to anything created on the laptop.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re: (Score:2)
It really isn't that cut and dried. If work is "a work for hire", the company owns the copyright irrespective of if the employee signed away anything or not. The bar for work for hire is pretty low it simply needs to be "a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment". An employee could attempt to argue that using company resources constitutes it being under the scope of the employment.
Re: (Score:2)
Dang it. Employee in the last sentence should read employer.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
P.S. IANAL so I could be mistaken.
That's the most important part of your post. I'm not a lawyer either, but I'm fairly confident that materials developed on company time or company property are defined as "work product" in a "work for hire" environment. I'd be extremely wary of presuming natural rights. The law is rarely completely reasonable, and work product is no exception.
Re: (Score:2, Interesting)
Re: (Score:2)