Do You Hate Being Called an "IT Guy?" 736
An anonymous reader writes "The phrase 'IT' is so overused, I'm not sure what it means any more. OK, maybe it's an ego thing, but I spent a lot of years in grad school, lots of years getting good at creating software, and lots of years getting good at creating technical products and I don't want the same label as the intern who fixes windoze. I'm looking at a tech management job at a content company that is trying to become a software company, and they refer to everything about software development, data center operations, and desktop support as 'IT.' I'd like to tell the CEO before I take the job that we have to stop referring to all these people as 'IT people' or I'm not going to be able to attract and retain the top-tier talent that is required. Am I just being petty? Should I just forget it? Change it slowly over time? These folks are really developing products, but we don't normally call software creators 'product developers.' Just call them the 'Tech Department' or the 'Engineering Deptartment?'"
Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't see why this would matter. Hopefully potential candidates will look beyond whatever their official job title is. I'd change it slowly over time.
Grammar Nazi to the Rescue! (Score:5, Insightful)
That aside, I think "Software Engineer," "Software Architect," "Analyst," "Lead Developer," and such are common titles for people who are creating things with software, as opposed to "IT's" tech-support implications.
Petty? (Score:5, Insightful)
Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
In my view of the industry when someone says IT I think of the technical support, admin and sys planning teams. The ones who make the systems work and keep working.
Programmers and the such, I put in the developers group. Graphic designers, html jockeys or software developers. The ones who make what people see on their desktops look pretty.
You dont call someone who washes your car and gives it a bit of a polish a mechanic would you?
I'll let you (Score:5, Insightful)
call me Sue if you'll give me a job.
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
Me neither. It's just as stupid as if the finance people didn't want to be finance people anymore... Engineering department? That's where the engineers are - you know, the people who design hardware of different types
And by the way - by writing "[...]don't want the same label as the intern who fixes windoze." you clearly have earned the same label.
Information Technology (IT) (Score:5, Insightful)
You ARE in IT.
However, it's the equivalent of calling a Brain surgeon a Doctor
Or referring to a Nuclear physicist as a scientist.
It is kind of vague. Sometimes being more specific is good, as it points out people's specialty more.
Comment removed (Score:2, Insightful)
It matters to future employers (Score:5, Insightful)
Potential employees are probably more worried about future employers/their resumes, and it's not unreasonable of them to do so.
Frankly, a respectable-sounding title is one very cheap way for employers to compensate their employees that costs the company absolutely nothing yet is of material benefit to the employee. It's one reason nearly everyone in sales and marketing is a "director" or "head" of some tiny sliver of a given institution's sales/marketing operation. "Director, Central California Sales," "Head of E-marketing Business Development" etc. You're more likely to attract ambitious, driven people if your position comes with a nice title. These are also the sort of people who will work very hard for you, because they're hungry for advancement. Of course, they also are likely to leave the company as soon as a better offer comes along. But I'd rather get 3 years of work from a ambitious employee than 10 years from a just-getting-by timecard-puncher.
Self-important Douchebag (Score:4, Insightful)
"The phrase 'IT' is so overused, I'm not sure what it means any more.
It means "information technology".
OK, maybe it's an ego thing, but I spent a lot of years in grad school, lots of years getting good at creating software, and lots of years getting good at creating technical products and I don't want the same label as the intern who fixes windoze.
What's wrong with that? Are you really so shallow as this? (Don't answer) I can understand wanting some sort of prestige, but not liking something because the proles get to have it too is one of the worst features of human nature, and it's something that used to get trained out of non-upper-class Americans. Is it really that irritating to be in the same industry as the intern who fixes "Windoze"[sic]? From urbandictionary.com: douchebag "An individual who has an over-inflated sense of self worth, compounded by a low level of intelligence, behaving ridiculously in front of colleagues with no sense of how moronic he appears."
How does the following passage make you feel? Does it make you feel comforted or outraged?
"What's great about this country is that America started the tradition where the richest consumers buy essentially the same things as the poorest. You can be watching TV and see Coca-Cola, and you know that the President drinks Coke, Liz Taylor drinks Coke, and just think, you can drink Coke, too. A Coke is a Coke and no amount of money can get you a better Coke than the one the bum on the corner is drinking. All the Cokes are the same and all the Cokes are good. Liz Taylor knows it, the President knows it, the bum knows it, and you know it."
--Andy Warhol
Titles before substance (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you really value titles before substance?
'IT Guy' isn't a term of abuse, why should you care if people call you that?
Do they value you in your current position? Of so great, if not fix it or leave. Either way being called an 'IT Guy' is not worth worrying about.
Re:Grammar Nazi to the Rescue! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Information Technology (IT) (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right, but I also see his point.
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
"IT guy" or "computer guy" or whatever. People need a generic term to describe people who work in some area they don't (or won't be bothered to) understand. "doctor" or "engineer" or "lawyer" just the same. A cardiac surgeon doesn't know much otolaryngology; an EE doesn't know much about steam turbines; a personal injury lawyer isn't going to be much help with your corporate takeover. It's easier to lump all of the people who do similar work together and refer to the whole group by a generic term - eg, "IT people" for all the computer-centric jobs, whether hardware, software, or support; eg, "lawyers" whether they're finance, liability, or contract. "IT people" should probably have descriptive titles for internal use, once the group gets large enough for division of labor and effort to be important, but you shouldn't get too upset if people outside the group just see "computer people."
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a reason why we don't refer to screwdrivers, circular saws and sanding machines all as "hammers". There is a reason why we have different words for "poisonous" and "tasty"... if you're not eating them, then just "berries" might be a sufficient description to you, but language evolves for a reason, we have vocabulary for a reason, description is important. Not understanding the different between two different terms shows you haven't been exposed to it. Not understanding that there could be important differences that may lie outside of what you've been exposed to show narrow mindedness. Personally, I'd rather go with the label of 'petty over my label' than that of 'deliberately ignorant', so I respect even the differences that I don't understand.
Comment removed (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
I don't work in IT, but.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:I am a software engineer (Score:1, Insightful)
I laughed when I read the WAN latency issue. The number of IT people that know the difference between latency and bandwidth and their effect on a system is shocking. The number of times I have to explain that no matter how much bandwidth you are getting, it would not make a difference for a lot of applications. (This of course is a more common issue here in South Africa because the lowest possible round-trip latency to the US and Europe is a 100+ms).
Re:Grammar Nazi to the Rescue! (Score:3, Insightful)
Strangely enough, my experience is exactly the opposite: When I say that I work in IT, people instantly assume that I'm a programmer, and it takes some time for me to make them understand that I don't know Jack about that.
(Well, I do a little PHP and C at times, but that doesn't make me a programmer.)
But yes, "IT guys" is the correct term for all of us: Programmers, admins, security specialists, tech support
Deptartment (Score:3, Insightful)
One thing is certain: Referring to any group as a deptartment (or worse, a deptardment) will not win favor with anyone, top-tier talent or not.
Re:I am a software engineer (Score:3, Insightful)
There's a few colleges in a similar situation where it seems basically students who know how to manage with computers will avoid their college helldesk like the plague. Leading to getting, well, people who get taken on"do you want to work in IT?" "what's IT?" "you're hired!"
Re:I don't work in IT, but.... (Score:3, Insightful)
Not so much that it seemed like the IT major was designed specifically for CS dropouts, but I noticed that most CS dropouts did end up there.
Re:I am a software engineer (Score:3, Insightful)
Assuming an unsaturated link, you are of course correct. With a saturated link, or with highly compressable data, light compression can make a difference. Of course it can't increase the speed of light, so I'm still gonna get annoying lag when pressing a key in my ssh client to my server in the states, but tunnelling my smtp/imap/sql/etc connections through that compressed ssh link does make a noticable difference, even with me only using 1% of my available bandwidth.
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
A cardiac surgeon doesn't know much otolaryngology;
That analogy would be correct if people wouldn't know the difference between Java programmers and C++ programmers. I'm pretty sure every cardiologist would feel a bit insulted if a patient wouldn't know the difference between him and a nurse. Nothing against nurses, every hospital would collapse without their work.
It doesn't matter that much (Score:4, Insightful)
We already have numerous title for someone who does programming. Too many in fact and it's because of those two types mentioned above or companies wanting to avoid paying a decent wage by giving you a title that is hard to compare to other titles.
Re:You have an ego problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Her understanding the difference between server admin and programming is irrelevant, and won't fix the problem: If your wife is telling you she thinks you're spending too much time at the computer, it's because she'd rather you spend the time with her, and were doing something romantic. Relationships work, and stay alive, on doing stuff together and having common interests.
When was the last time you brought her flowers? (assuming she likes them, I do know a couple of women who don't). When was the last time you went out on a date? Was it planned, or did you get home in the evening and say "let's go out tonight"? When was the last time you stayed in, and had a quiet evening snuggling? When was the last time you went dancing, or to the theater?
Getting married does not mean that you have to stop working at the romance side of things. You could probably earn yourself a week's worth of being left alone to program by taking her out on Friday. Try to do something romantic with her at least once a week, preferably more often, and you'll find that she stops feeling neglected, and will give you your time to do things like your hobby of programming.
*sighs*
Tara
Re:It matters to future employers (Score:5, Insightful)
Just from a developer: I think I really appreciate the "fix Windoze" people (if they know what they are doing), because I sure wouldn't want to do it. That's why I don't like to have "IT" used a catch-all, it means that during jobs searching you often have to sort out manually those jobs that are not relevant to you (how many developers are looking for and admin job and the other way round?) and even worse, as a developer with a bit of a more mathematical and OS-design background you also have to look at the "Research & Development" job openings for some countries. It really is quite a mess, and I just can't help the feeling that in many cases for the HR department everyone from the scientific supercomputing guy to the one switching out the graphics card they are all "computer guys" which obviously makes as much sense as lumping the guy cleaning the toilets together with the one making sure the air is clean in you chip manufacturing area.
I kind of get it (Score:1, Insightful)
I have experience as a programmer, project manager, business analyst, software infrastructure architect, server and my current assignment is to create a new software department. You can call me an IT guy, but that doesn't describe my level of expertise. I graduated college as an Engineer, which doesn't describe all that either.
You wouldn't plainly call a building architect the "construction guy" or the CFO of a bank "a finance guy". Sometimes you need to make the distinction to prevent people from thinking that you have a simple job. If you are proud of your qualities, you can call it whatever makes you feel good.
I generally just tell people, that I'm a nerd.
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
I work in IT. I'm an IT Professional. Do I know anything about fixing windoze? HELL NO! Do people assume I know about PCs and wireless routers and (sheeze!) printers? Yep ... all the time!
To the untrained eye IT is IT is IT. It's like wine tasting vs beer tasting. Until you expose yourself to the knowledge you just think they all taste the same, but it's not the fault of the ignorant (and I do mean "ignorant" and not necessarily "stupid"). It is an opportunity to enlighten them that IT covers such a wide range of knowledge and skills now (and the range of knowledge and skills is growing rather too fast for this old programmer!) that at some point there may well be a divergence, though where the split(s) may appear I don't know!
Case in point: A couple of friends had a company that bought and sold second hand office furniture since before computers appeared on the scene. Not long after computers became de-rigeur in offices the company split because it recognised that "computers" were no longer just "office furniture" - one half taking JUST computers and the other half taking everything else ...
IT will split into different factions just as "office furniture" did when it makes sense for it to do so.
So, what would be a good way to split it up then? Development vs Maintenance? Software (you write stuff to run on H/W) vs Hardware (you build things to run the S/W) vs Repairer (you know how things work and so can configure/fix things & you can talk to real people and so act as an interface between the annoying Users and the equally annoying S/W and H/W people) ...
Re:It matters to future employers (Score:4, Insightful)
For non-degree holders, titles are given instead of raises.
It makes us feel important and costs nothing.
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a reason why we don't refer to screwdrivers, circular saws and sanding machines all as "hammers"
Yes there is such a reason and that's because they're not "hammers" an "tools," which is why we don't call them "hammers" but we call them "tools." And while we're at it, please hand me that "toolbox." No, not that "screwdrivers-and-circular-saws-and-hammers-box" just the "toolbox." Thanks.
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Insightful)
Hi there,
I'm a software engineer. Take your funny definitions of what is and what isn't engineering somewhere else.
Re:Yes, I do. But people don't call me one. (Score:3, Insightful)
Agreed, and you have the same hierarchy within an engineering / machine shop, within a hospital, within a building services company, within electricians shops, on board a ship.... you name it.
What ***___IS___*** different now is that back in the old days the only route to being top dog was to work your way up through all the other levels and disciplines.
Now you just take a degree course in engineering and get to be a manager put in charge of people who, for example, use a hacksaw every day of their lives, even though you yourself have never even held one.
I could tell you uncounted real world stories in engineering like this, guys who have literally never held a spanner, but have a degree in hydraulic engineering, designing hydraulic machinery that LITERALLY cannot be made, due to elementary mistakes like insufficient room between unions to fit the spanner to secure said unions, etc etc etc.
This is why all these type think they are better than the "workers", because they lack clue #1 about the workers actual daily job and skills.
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
A cardiac surgeon doesn't know much otolaryngology; an EE doesn't know much about steam turbines; a personal injury lawyer isn't going to be much help with your corporate takeover.
Comparisons:
Now, don't you think those on the right side of the above descriptions would frown own being referred to as health/electric stuff/law guy if the terms had the meanings I gave them above? And for "IT guy" that's exactly how the term is commonly used, the guy who gives you a new keyboard when you spill coffee on it gets referred to as an "IT guy" and so do your senior developers and sysadmins, guess why they're grumpy about it...
/Mikael
It should matter to the current company too (Score:1, Insightful)
I have plenty of recently graduated friends that have gotten all sorts of fancy titles. Why? Because when they're dealing with customers, it's important that the customers perceive that they're dealing with someone important because then it means that they're a valued, important customer. My friends happily admit that it's all "title inflation".
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's where the engineers are - you know, the people who design hardware of different types
Please don't give credence to professional engineering societies who try to fetishize the word "engineer".
Engineers are also people who adjust the mix levels of audio recordings. Or dig ditches for the military. Or drive trains or fire trucks. Or keeps the radio equipment running.
Or engage in the (IEEE-recognized, for what little that's worth) field of software engineering.
Re:Petty? (Score:3, Insightful)
Exactly there are a lot of business functions with rather generic names.
Human Resource... Are these the guys who keep track of your sick days or are they the ones who analyses all the people in there jobs and makes sure each one is the right fit and is being compensated for their work, and that their home/work life can stay balanced.
Marketing... Are these guys the ones who do cold calls to the customer during dinner. Or are they the ones who do a lot of work to figure out who their target market is and crate a plan where people who would want the product know about it.
Janitorial... Do they just empty trash cans and vacuums the floor, or do they do the plumbing electricity and landscaping and all the things to keep the building in running operation.
Management... Do they just make sure you do what their boss tell them to make you do. Or are they part of the decision process and work on the direction of the company and come up with ways of improving the business in their section.
Finance... Do they just make sure they are bringing in more money then they are spending. Or are they tracking/investing and controlling the flow of money in the organization.
IT like any job really covers a wide area from rather low end jobs to high end jobs.
In reality IT has a lot of titles with in the group, and each group has its own rage in them too... Support, Administration, Software Development, Software Architecture, Hardware design... CTO, CIO... When I post on a Resume I don't say I am an IT Guy I say I am a Software Developer or a Software Architect (I am kinda in the middle professionally) I havn't seen to many jobs looking for IT Guys... However after you are hired you may be called such outside of IT... Just as you call them Marketing Guys or HR Guys...
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yeah, good luck with that. The only view of computers they see is the screen, keyboard, mouse, and if they are really sophisticated Power Users, a USB stick. They are now considered experts by those Upper Management (UM) that fear to even gaze upon a computer and have their secretaries print out their emails for markup and reply. The UM will gladly turn to these experts since they are all Business School Product and speak the language of widgets, product, cash-flow, and will fondly recall bits of Buzzword Bingo Lingo thereby bonding together, circling the wagons, pointing their spears outward to repel attacks by those technical people that actually know enough to make the tech work. So Joe-Big-Software-Company-Product-Specialist walks in the door. The Big Cheese (BC) must see him/her because this is a Mission-Critical Performance of the Forward-Looking Synergistic Kind. BC gets sold a box of shiny buttons, after convening meeting with the Power Users who all agree the BC has his finger on the pulse of the company and not inserted into his oval office. A Deal is commenced which will Galvanize the Future, Coalesce the Ineffable into that which may be Effed, and ceremoniously inflicted on the people who actually make the tech work. After the giggles subside, and the tech people find out PUs, UMs, and BC are serious, darkness falls upon their faces for they know whom the bell will toll when it fails to Bring Forth a Fountain of Fundamental Change and costs a serious arm and leg.
Errr...not that I have no fondness for PUs, UMs, and BCs...I have some...somewhere...it was just here a minute ago...
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
There is a reason why we don't refer to screwdrivers, circular saws and sanding machines all as "hammers". There is a reason why we have different words for "poisonous" and "tasty"... if you're not eating them, then just "berries" might be a sufficient description to you, but language evolves for a reason, we have vocabulary for a reason, description is important. Not understanding the different between two different terms shows you haven't been exposed to it. Not understanding that there could be important differences that may lie outside of what you've been exposed to show narrow mindedness. Personally, I'd rather go with the label of 'petty over my label' than that of 'deliberately ignorant', so I respect even the differences that I don't understand.
Normally, I'd agree with you. I'm a big fan of using the appropriate words for the appropriate things. It frustrates me to no end to see people appropriating words for their own purposes and completely mis-using the English language.
However, "IT" is more of a generic label than a specific title. It refers to an entire department - just as "HR" does. Not everyone in HR is a manager... Nor do they all do the same job... Nor are they all on the same pay grade... But they're all in HR.
Same thing goes for Marketing, or Sales, or whatever. They indicate a department, or a general function within a company, not a specific job title or duties.
So this guy doesn't like being called the "IT Guy"... Well, that is a bit vague... I would assume his official title would be more along the lines of "IT Manager" or "Network Technician" or "Software Developer" or whatever... But he'll still be working in the IT department - as his work is at least vaguely related to Information Technology.
Re:Engineering (Score:1, Insightful)
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:3, Insightful)
Calling software development, network engineering, web design etc. all "IT" is a bit like calling HR, accounting and legal all "paperwork". I agree with the story author - the need to call everyone who produces or maintains software or hardware "IT" just shows how little most people understand the businesses they run and the people they employ. It's that reasoning that leads to (in small companies... hopefully) the pimply faced youth who reboots the servers being asked to design and deploy a mission-critical database because he 'knows about computers'. Your post typifies this: they're all "vaguely related to Information Technology" therefore they should be the same department? That makes no sense at all, and many companies get this wrong, wrong, wrong.
If this were a board dedicated to HR-related topics... Instead of IT-related topics... I'm sure we'd see people on here complaining that they don't like being referred to as an "HR guy." I'm also sure that you've at least once in your life referred to someone as "working in HR" or being "from HR" or having to go talk to "somebody in HR."
Is it accurate? Is it specific? No... But it doesn't need to be.
If your company is big enough to have an entire software department, I'm sure you get referred to as a "software guy" - because distinctions are usually made along departments rather than specific job duties. But if it isn't, if you only have an IT department, then that's what you're stuck with.
Some places are big enough to have separate HR, accounting, and legal departments... Other places are not, and just refer to those duties as "administration" or "management."
Re:It matters to future employers (Score:2, Insightful)
spews crap like bukkake all over
hey, lets not get our fetishes mixed up here..one of those is just wrong, the other one is hot!
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I think most people understand the difference between an HR manager, accountant and lawyer, and they would have different job titles even if they were all in an administration dept. It's unlikely they would all be called 'administration guy' and be expected to deal with the same queries, unless it's a really, really small company, in which case it's fair enough and everyone is expected to be versatile. I don't think IT is given the same respect/insight, so I think the article author's point stands.
Of course they'll have different job titles - just as I assume our "IT guy" is going to have some kind of official job title like "Senior Network Administrator" - but that doesn't really matter. We're talking about somebody who doesn't want to be called an "IT guy" even though he works in the "IT Department."
HR is responsible for human resources... Accounting is responsible for money... Legal is responsible for all the legal mumbo-jumbo...
So, where does payroll fit into things? Is that HR or Accounting?
How about whoever it is that handles things like the hiring and firing procedures... Does that fall under Legal, or HR?
I'm sure you've got people working in HR who have skillsets that more closely resemble folks in Accounting or Legal... Or you've got people who have duties that fall somewhere between the departmental lines... But you've still got to stick them on an organizational chart somewhere.
So you get guys in HR who don't know the first thing about hiring or firing people... Who went to years and years of school to learn all kinds of neat accounting stuff... But they're still in HR, whether they like it or not. And they'll still be introduced as "Joe from HR" - even if they don't like the association with the people who fire you. And maybe they'll be asked about some benefit package during lunch, and they won't be able to answer, because they don't know anything about benefits.
How does that differ from someone in IT who went to school for years and years to learn programming and has nothing to do with actually fixing a broken PC?
It may very well be that your average human being doesn't understand the intricacies of IT work... May not understand the subtle differences between a DBA and a network administrator (they're both administrators, right?) But that doesn't really have much to do with organizational charts.
If your company has an IT department, and you work in it, you're an IT guy. Just as you're an HR guy if you work in the HR department, and you're a Sales guy if you work in the Sales department.
Stupid question, badly phrased (are you trolling?) (Score:3, Insightful)
So apparently you want to be taken more seriously, but you decide to drop "windoze" into your question? Do you really think that the people who hand out jobs - and titles - care about your personal prejudices? As a professional, if the best solution for your company is "Microsoft`s platform" then you deliver it, you don't spend time complaining about how no one respects you because your proposal to migrate Visual Studio to vi isn't taken seriously. If it makes sense, make a business case for it and argue for it, but if the guys upstairs decide against it then either shut up or get out. This is what happens every day in Sales, Marketing, Production, Finance etc., but you seem to believe that IT is different.
If you're so obsessed about a job title then insist on it your contract. As some people say, that may make sense if you're concerned about your next job, but how bad is this job if you're already thinking about the next one?
Re:Anyone think of South Park after the summary? (Score:1, Insightful)
Nobody with a functioning sense of humor will have thought of South Park for years. It jumped the shark before "jump the shark" did.
To put it another way, your preferences are objectively bad, and I have a graph here in my pocket that can prove it. Stop watching that damn show, you're only encouraging those morons to make more!
You first (Score:1, Insightful)
Are you going to refer to other departments in the same manner? Are you going to start calling people pay clerks, recruitment managers and pension advisers, or will you simply keep referring to the multitude of different disciplines involved there as HR? To most of us, these jobs appear as interchangeable as DB admin and developer do to the uninformed - but its just as insulting to them when we do it wrong.
who has the ego problem here? (Score:3, Insightful)
*sighs*
Right back at you.
I actually broke my mod point to post this- do you understand how arrogant it is that you feel a)you understand the problem based on one or two sentences, b)you are qualified to give advice on the subject, and c)that it's your business to do the analysis and hand out advice? Nevermind that apparently "you spend too much time in front of the computer" somehow turned into:
Half of which is a bunch of misandry. Here's a big cluebomb for you: they liked each other enough to get married. I think one or both of them has been doing something right.
Seriously- Whisky, Tango, Foxtrot.