7360316
story
Comments: 736 +- Ask Slashdot: Do You Hate Being Called an "IT Guy?" on Sunday November 29, @05:07AM
Posted
by
kdawson
on Sunday November 29, @05:07AM
from the tech-genius-will-do-nicely dept.
from the tech-genius-will-do-nicely dept.
background: url(//a.fsdn.com/sd/topics/topicit.gif); width:75px; height:61px;
it
An anonymous reader writes "The phrase 'IT' is so overused, I'm not sure what it means any more. OK, maybe it's an ego thing, but I spent a lot of years in grad school, lots of years getting good at creating software, and lots of years getting good at creating technical products and I don't want the same label as the intern who fixes windoze. I'm looking at a tech management job at a content company that is trying to become a software company, and they refer to everything about software development, data center operations, and desktop support as 'IT.' I'd like to tell the CEO before I take the job that we have to stop referring to all these people as 'IT people' or I'm not going to be able to attract and retain the top-tier talent that is required. Am I just being petty? Should I just forget it? Change it slowly over time? These folks are really developing products, but we don't normally call software creators 'product developers.' Just call them the 'Tech Department' or the 'Engineering Deptartment?'"
Related Stories
Submission: Do you hate being called an "IT Guy"? by Anonymous Coward
A great many people think they are thinking when they are merely
rearranging their prejudices.
-- William James
All trademarks and copyrights on this page are owned by their respective owners. Comments are owned by the Poster. The Rest © 1997-2010 Geeknet, Inc.
Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
I can't see why this would matter. Hopefully potential candidates will look beyond whatever their official job title is. I'd change it slowly over time.
Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Me neither. It's just as stupid as if the finance people didn't want to be finance people anymore... Engineering department? That's where the engineers are - you know, the people who design hardware of different types
And by the way - by writing "[...]don't want the same label as the intern who fixes windoze." you clearly have earned the same label.
It matters to future employers (Score:5, Insightful)
Potential employees are probably more worried about future employers/their resumes, and it's not unreasonable of them to do so.
Frankly, a respectable-sounding title is one very cheap way for employers to compensate their employees that costs the company absolutely nothing yet is of material benefit to the employee. It's one reason nearly everyone in sales and marketing is a "director" or "head" of some tiny sliver of a given institution's sales/marketing operation. "Director, Central California Sales," "Head of E-marketing Business Development" etc. You're more likely to attract ambitious, driven people if your position comes with a nice title. These are also the sort of people who will work very hard for you, because they're hungry for advancement. Of course, they also are likely to leave the company as soon as a better offer comes along. But I'd rather get 3 years of work from a ambitious employee than 10 years from a just-getting-by timecard-puncher.
Parent
Re:It matters to future employers (Score:5, Insightful)
Of course if a company does hand out titles too much then you'll end up with a situation like this [yahoo.com]. Me I don't call myself an "IT guy" as I am quite happy being what I am-A PC fixit guy and system builder. I look at it no different than electrician or plumber. Folks break machines, or need new machines, so they come to me.
I think the reason the word "IT" rubs this guy the wrong way is it is a catch all phrase, but as far as I know it has always been, but that is why most are not JUST an "IT Guy" but a programmer, engineer, or guys like me that actually do "fix windoze". Oh yeah and bite me on the fix windoze remark. I'd love to see this turkey spend some time trying to get rid of a seriously nasty infection where he can NOT wipe the thing because they have data shotgunned all over the damned drive, or get to see a nasty pron bug that spews crap like bukkake all over the damned screen be the first thing HE had to look at first thing in the morning. You know, nobody respects the plumber either until their toilet is clogged. May your family get rootkitted!
Parent
Re:It matters to future employers (Score:5, Insightful)
Just from a developer: I think I really appreciate the "fix Windoze" people (if they know what they are doing), because I sure wouldn't want to do it. That's why I don't like to have "IT" used a catch-all, it means that during jobs searching you often have to sort out manually those jobs that are not relevant to you (how many developers are looking for and admin job and the other way round?) and even worse, as a developer with a bit of a more mathematical and OS-design background you also have to look at the "Research & Development" job openings for some countries. It really is quite a mess, and I just can't help the feeling that in many cases for the HR department everyone from the scientific supercomputing guy to the one switching out the graphics card they are all "computer guys" which obviously makes as much sense as lumping the guy cleaning the toilets together with the one making sure the air is clean in you chip manufacturing area.
Parent
Re:It matters to future employers (Score:4, Funny)
/ now they can all just get off my lawn
Parent
Re:It matters to future employers (Score:4, Insightful)
For non-degree holders, titles are given instead of raises.
It makes us feel important and costs nothing.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a reason why we don't refer to screwdrivers, circular saws and sanding machines all as "hammers". There is a reason why we have different words for "poisonous" and "tasty"... if you're not eating them, then just "berries" might be a sufficient description to you, but language evolves for a reason, we have vocabulary for a reason, description is important. Not understanding the different between two different terms shows you haven't been exposed to it. Not understanding that there could be important differences that may lie outside of what you've been exposed to show narrow mindedness. Personally, I'd rather go with the label of 'petty over my label' than that of 'deliberately ignorant', so I respect even the differences that I don't understand.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
There is a reason why we don't refer to screwdrivers, circular saws and sanding machines all as "hammers"
Yes there is such a reason and that's because they're not "hammers" an "tools," which is why we don't call them "hammers" but we call them "tools." And while we're at it, please hand me that "toolbox." No, not that "screwdrivers-and-circular-saws-and-hammers-box" just the "toolbox." Thanks.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Insightful)
However, I think most people understand the difference between an HR manager, accountant and lawyer, and they would have different job titles even if they were all in an administration dept. It's unlikely they would all be called 'administration guy' and be expected to deal with the same queries, unless it's a really, really small company, in which case it's fair enough and everyone is expected to be versatile. I don't think IT is given the same respect/insight, so I think the article author's point stands.
Of course they'll have different job titles - just as I assume our "IT guy" is going to have some kind of official job title like "Senior Network Administrator" - but that doesn't really matter. We're talking about somebody who doesn't want to be called an "IT guy" even though he works in the "IT Department."
HR is responsible for human resources... Accounting is responsible for money... Legal is responsible for all the legal mumbo-jumbo...
So, where does payroll fit into things? Is that HR or Accounting?
How about whoever it is that handles things like the hiring and firing procedures... Does that fall under Legal, or HR?
I'm sure you've got people working in HR who have skillsets that more closely resemble folks in Accounting or Legal... Or you've got people who have duties that fall somewhere between the departmental lines... But you've still got to stick them on an organizational chart somewhere.
So you get guys in HR who don't know the first thing about hiring or firing people... Who went to years and years of school to learn all kinds of neat accounting stuff... But they're still in HR, whether they like it or not. And they'll still be introduced as "Joe from HR" - even if they don't like the association with the people who fire you. And maybe they'll be asked about some benefit package during lunch, and they won't be able to answer, because they don't know anything about benefits.
How does that differ from someone in IT who went to school for years and years to learn programming and has nothing to do with actually fixing a broken PC?
It may very well be that your average human being doesn't understand the intricacies of IT work... May not understand the subtle differences between a DBA and a network administrator (they're both administrators, right?) But that doesn't really have much to do with organizational charts.
If your company has an IT department, and you work in it, you're an IT guy. Just as you're an HR guy if you work in the HR department, and you're a Sales guy if you work in the Sales department.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Insightful)
Hi there,
I'm a software engineer. Take your funny definitions of what is and what isn't engineering somewhere else.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Funny)
haha! You're just a software engineer? I'm a supreme senior software analyst advisor head of the developmental engineering analytics division!
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Insightful)
That's where the engineers are - you know, the people who design hardware of different types
Please don't give credence to professional engineering societies who try to fetishize the word "engineer".
Engineers are also people who adjust the mix levels of audio recordings. Or dig ditches for the military. Or drive trains or fire trucks. Or keeps the radio equipment running.
Or engage in the (IEEE-recognized, for what little that's worth) field of software engineering.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Interesting)
It's just not very descript, the connotations that the term 'IT' has attached are different to those of 'programmer', at least to myself, and I've no reason to believe I'm unique with that. IT in my experiences will tend to be more office/user facing; easing other peoples use of other peoples products, dealing with word processing, spreadsheets, all that kind of stuff. Programmers create the stuff that the people in IT use.
Personally I find it easy to escape the label of 'IT' by not having a clue how to use Excel or Word leaving me very much being not the person to ask :-) System architecture, coding problems, no sweat, that stuff interests me, so that's the stuff I'm interested in being associated with. I don't look down on people who fix the office printers or get peoples mail clients working with their AV or whatever... I don't look down on teachers, but it doesn't mean I wanna be one or believe that calling me one is an accurate description.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Interesting)
I don't look down on people who fix the office printers or get peoples mail clients working with their AV or whatever... I don't look down on teachers, but it doesn't mean I wanna be one or believe that calling me one is an accurate description.
I once worked at a university (doing "IT" for the engineering school) and during one of the staff meetings, the management suggested that they could save money by having the computer science professors take over all the IT tasks in the school.
Fortunately one of CS profs quickly suggested that the EE professors could fix wiring and changing light bulbs and the Civil Engineering profs could clean bathrooms and unplug toilets. The idea died almost quicker than it was born. But it belies the point of this article. Most people have no idea what "IT" even means and assume that if you can do one thing with a computer then you are automatically able to do all things.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Interesting)
I can't see why this would matter.
I can. Where I work (as in most places I imagine), the IT department handles the network and helpdesk. IT also includes database administrators. While the database admins can write some really good SQL, they don't know jack about networks or computer maintenance. This is all fine and good. However, management doesn't know jack about IT. So we end up with a bunch of database administrators trying to run a network and maintain computers. And management wonders why everything is falling apart all of the time.
Keeping the titles separate might help management make the distinction between the database guys and network engineers.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
"IT guy" or "computer guy" or whatever. People need a generic term to describe people who work in some area they don't (or won't be bothered to) understand. "doctor" or "engineer" or "lawyer" just the same. A cardiac surgeon doesn't know much otolaryngology; an EE doesn't know much about steam turbines; a personal injury lawyer isn't going to be much help with your corporate takeover. It's easier to lump all of the people who do similar work together and refer to the whole group by a generic term - eg, "IT people" for all the computer-centric jobs, whether hardware, software, or support; eg, "lawyers" whether they're finance, liability, or contract. "IT people" should probably have descriptive titles for internal use, once the group gets large enough for division of labor and effort to be important, but you shouldn't get too upset if people outside the group just see "computer people."
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Funny)
Except for us Prius driving Austin Texans. We prefer to be called "star child". Now pass the aromatherapy candle.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
A cardiac surgeon doesn't know much otolaryngology;
That analogy would be correct if people wouldn't know the difference between Java programmers and C++ programmers. I'm pretty sure every cardiologist would feel a bit insulted if a patient wouldn't know the difference between him and a nurse. Nothing against nurses, every hospital would collapse without their work.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:4, Funny)
Some of these people think the server is a "CPU" or a "Hard Drive". I get calls where they say "the internet is down" because they somehow deleted the IE icon. They don't even know how to use the address bar in their browser, they type the url into one of the 10 search toolbars they've installed. You face the wrath of god when you delete their Weather Bug crapware. "my weather doesn't work, the it guy broke it"
If I talk Java or C++ their eyes glaze over as they pretend to know what I am talking about. Never underestimate the stupidity of people. I say that as a stupid person.
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Insightful)
A cardiac surgeon doesn't know much otolaryngology; an EE doesn't know much about steam turbines; a personal injury lawyer isn't going to be much help with your corporate takeover.
Comparisons:
Now, don't you think those on the right side of the above descriptions would frown own being referred to as health/electric stuff/law guy if the terms had the meanings I gave them above? And for "IT guy" that's exactly how the term is commonly used, the guy who gives you a new keyboard when you spill coffee on it gets referred to as an "IT guy" and so do your senior developers and sysadmins, guess why they're grumpy about it...
/Mikael
Parent
Re:Can't see why this would matter. (Score:5, Interesting)
From what I've understood companies in the US are extremely tightfisted about giving information about employees, so you'd better take what little you get. If you were a DBA but all your resume says is "IT department" and that's all they'll confirm then you have an uphill battle just to convince them that you were in fact a DBA, and not the guy replacing broken keyboards and fixing paper jams who is now desperately seeking a new job.
Of course there's such a thing as title inflation so too excessive a title will set off bullshit detectors, but there's no reason to sell yourself short either. I'm hardly a career ladder climber, but I would react negatively to a job title that would sell me short with my next employer. While it's not as bad here as in the US, the resumes do get screen by recruiting companies and HR and not having the title could lose me interviews before I even got to talk about what I've been doing.
Parent
You have an ego problem (Score:4, Informative)
You're in IT. Deal with it.
Nothing wrong with ego ;) (Score:5, Funny)
Hey, there's nothing wrong with ego. I, for one, always wanted to be called The High Priest Of The Sun. But then the barstards switched from Sun to IBM servers :p
Parent
Re:You have an ego problem (Score:5, Insightful)
Her understanding the difference between server admin and programming is irrelevant, and won't fix the problem: If your wife is telling you she thinks you're spending too much time at the computer, it's because she'd rather you spend the time with her, and were doing something romantic. Relationships work, and stay alive, on doing stuff together and having common interests.
When was the last time you brought her flowers? (assuming she likes them, I do know a couple of women who don't). When was the last time you went out on a date? Was it planned, or did you get home in the evening and say "let's go out tonight"? When was the last time you stayed in, and had a quiet evening snuggling? When was the last time you went dancing, or to the theater?
Getting married does not mean that you have to stop working at the romance side of things. You could probably earn yourself a week's worth of being left alone to program by taking her out on Friday. Try to do something romantic with her at least once a week, preferably more often, and you'll find that she stops feeling neglected, and will give you your time to do things like your hobby of programming.
*sighs*
Tara
Parent
Re:You have an ego problem (Score:5, Funny)
Parent
Grammar Nazi to the Rescue! (Score:5, Insightful)
That aside, I think "Software Engineer," "Software Architect," "Analyst," "Lead Developer," and such are common titles for people who are creating things with software, as opposed to "IT's" tech-support implications.
Re:Grammar Nazi to the Rescue! (Score:5, Insightful)
Parent
Petty? (Score:5, Insightful)
GOOD GOD (Score:5, Funny)
Did the submitter forget his Twitter account password? Is his navel so big that he can't help but gaze into it?
I'm not an "IT guy". (Score:5, Funny)
I'm a software developer. In my experience, "IT" is a term used by non-engineers as a catch-all for "that which my English degree failed to equip me to understand". Kind of like when they say "microchip".
-jcr
Hrmm (Score:5, Insightful)
In my view of the industry when someone says IT I think of the technical support, admin and sys planning teams. The ones who make the systems work and keep working.
Programmers and the such, I put in the developers group. Graphic designers, html jockeys or software developers. The ones who make what people see on their desktops look pretty.
You dont call someone who washes your car and gives it a bit of a polish a mechanic would you?
I'll let you (Score:5, Insightful)
call me Sue if you'll give me a job.
Quality Control (Score:5, Funny)
Just call them the 'Tech Department' or the 'Engineering Deptartment?'" [sic]
The spelling Deptartment just called. They need more budget.
Information Technology (IT) (Score:5, Insightful)
You ARE in IT.
However, it's the equivalent of calling a Brain surgeon a Doctor
Or referring to a Nuclear physicist as a scientist.
It is kind of vague. Sometimes being more specific is good, as it points out people's specialty more.
Re:Information Technology (IT) (Score:5, Insightful)
You're right, but I also see his point.
Parent
it doesn't matter (Score:3, Funny)
What's in a name (Score:4, Interesting)
The you realize the tunnel view you get when following such a path. And after a couple of years of having tried to adopt a fancy name -senior consultant, senior anything- I resolved to name myself that what defines me. If people ask I'll tell them I'm a programmer. Doing well for years with a lovely family, a very good income and a sports car that turns heads. But still a programmer.
I can develop products -which is much more than coding-, I can look through the organization and suggest improvements and I can tell anyone paying me he's brilliant. Still I'm a programmer.
Mainstream will never be able to keep cracks charlatans so don't set your hopes too high on job titles.
Consider job titles at Google. Naming Vint Cerf an Internet Evangelist is a way of telling the world that job titles don't really matter and that the substance matters way more.
I am a software engineer (Score:5, Funny)
IT guys are the scumbags who put desktop remote control software on my suse workstation. They are the reason I keep rootkits (ie, system rescue CDs) in my desk draw, and why most of the guys I directly work with run gentoo.
These are the people who solemnly told me they would improve my WAN latency issue by compressing the link. When I said that won't work they said they could always put two compressors in series.
When they replaced my Dell desktop with an equally crappy ASUS or something they replaced the Dell branded logitech keyboard and mouse with an ASUS branded logitech keyboard and mouse on the grounds that using the wrong type of peripheral might cause "incompatibilities".
Since they stopped supporting POP and SMTP I now have to use outlook inside windows inside vmware, except there used to be outlook web access which stopped working last weekend so I logged a call with the helpless desk and they got the whole story (running firefox on suse, etc) then they had to get me to give them the version of IE I had there (stuffed if I know why). So they didn't fix it (Exchange server cant authenticate me for some reason) and escalated it a few times then the second or third level guy called me back and asked if I had thought of restarting firefox. When I said yes he asked if I had restarted my system (said so, I had an import or ten on the go at the time). This after I had given them the error message which came back from exchange.
I wish I could sack these idiots. In theory they work for my organisation you know, but they seem to have their hooks in us.
Re:I am a software engineer (Score:4, Informative)
Someone seems to have confused someone who can turn on a computer with a competent technician.
The people you speak belong in a call center reading a script to AOL users.
How do these people get these jobs?
Parent
Self-important Douchebag (Score:4, Insightful)
"The phrase 'IT' is so overused, I'm not sure what it means any more.
It means "information technology".
OK, maybe it's an ego thing, but I spent a lot of years in grad school, lots of years getting good at creating software, and lots of years getting good at creating technical products and I don't want the same label as the intern who fixes windoze.
What's wrong with that? Are you really so shallow as this? (Don't answer) I can understand wanting some sort of prestige, but not liking something because the proles get to have it too is one of the worst features of human nature, and it's something that used to get trained out of non-upper-class Americans. Is it really that irritating to be in the same industry as the intern who fixes "Windoze"[sic]? From urbandictionary.com: douchebag "An individual who has an over-inflated sense of self worth, compounded by a low level of intelligence, behaving ridiculously in front of colleagues with no sense of how moronic he appears."
How does the following passage make you feel? Does it make you feel comforted or outraged?
"What's great about this country is that America started the tradition where the richest consumers buy essentially the same things as the poorest. You can be watching TV and see Coca-Cola, and you know that the President drinks Coke, Liz Taylor drinks Coke, and just think, you can drink Coke, too. A Coke is a Coke and no amount of money can get you a better Coke than the one the bum on the corner is drinking. All the Cokes are the same and all the Cokes are good. Liz Taylor knows it, the President knows it, the bum knows it, and you know it."
--Andy Warhol
Titles before substance (Score:3, Insightful)
Do you really value titles before substance?
'IT Guy' isn't a term of abuse, why should you care if people call you that?
Do they value you in your current position? Of so great, if not fix it or leave. Either way being called an 'IT Guy' is not worth worrying about.
Member of Technical Staff (Score:4, Interesting)
That's THE title at Bell Labs. If it's good enough for Dennis it's good enough for me.
Anyone think of South Park after the summary? (Score:5, Funny)
IT Guy ? (Score:5, Funny)
yup, specially when the client realizes I am a woman, not a guy :)
Yes, I do. But people don't call me one. (Score:5, Interesting)
Would you call someone who designs aircraft engines a mechanic? Would you call someone who designs central heating boilers a plumber? Would you call someone who runs a team working on ALU design at Intel an electrician?
My point is that nowadays IT is actually a trade, and mostly attracts the sort of people who in the past would have become plumbers, electricians and mechanics. Which is not to knock them, because these are essential and valuable trades, but basically they implement what other people have designed and specified. Programmers who are not just coders, systems designers, user interface designers - these are creative professions.
In the UK we have a terrible tradition of confusing professionals with tradesmen, caused by our emphasis on "administrative" skills. We've just had the Government dismiss their principal expert on drugs because he dared to disagree with the irrational "omg smelling cannabis kills you I need a stiff drink or five before I can go back to work" culture of the Government and the Civil Service. In a properly organised world we would sack the Government for lying to us, but in the mind of the Govt., Prof. Nutt's status is about that of a plumber. The point is that you go to tradesmen for advice on implementation of what you want to do, but you go to professionals to tell you what to do in the first place. You somehow need to get back to that position (I say you. I hope to retire in 5-6 years; then it will be someone else's problem. For now, I am quite happy being a software architect, because that is actually what I do.
It doesn't matter that much (Score:4, Insightful)
We already have numerous title for someone who does programming. Too many in fact and it's because of those two types mentioned above or companies wanting to avoid paying a decent wage by giving you a title that is hard to compare to other titles.
Re:I swear (Score:5, Funny)
Oh, you're in IT.
Sorry you don't have a shiny title to distinguish yourself from the lowly CPU-fixers and computer janitors, but there you go.
You're in IT. Face it. You're in IT. No way around it, might as well say it with me: You're in IT.
Parent