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I think you've already decided... (Score:5, Insightful)
There were two options:
1. Release it anonymously and take no credit
2. Write about it and get some credit (but then you can't actually release it due to legal issues)
You can't (and won't) release it now. If somebody gets attacked with your code, guess who they're going to prosecute and/or sue.
Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:5, Funny)
Yes, especially when he includes his full name in TFS, unless of course this Johannes Buchner is his arch nemesis whom he is trying to frame.
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:4, Funny)
Yes, especially when he includes his full name in TFS, unless of course this Johannes Buchner is his arch nemesis whom he is trying to frame.
I tested your theory by saying "Johannes Buchner" in a stiff jawed English accent - a James Bond sort of accent. And low and behold, my scientific study has come to this conclusion:
Johannes Buchner is in fact an evil genius and he will release this code on to the World bringing havoc to all Linux run internet servers in effect, destroying the internet unless he is paid One HUNdred biiiillllioooon Euroes!
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:5, Funny)
Why make billions, when you can make... millions?
Yes! Exactly! Today the universe, tomorrow the world!
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:4, Funny)
Okay, you give me a million euro's and i'll give you a million dollars...
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Re: (Score:3, Informative)
Or, Johannes Buchner is the West Germanic language equivalent of "John Smith". There is more then one [google.com] person with this name, although I suspect we're with the guy who posts his Public PGP key [coconia.net].
Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:5, Insightful)
The summary says it doesn't actually do anything malicious and it isn't a worm. There is no legal reason why he couldn't release the code and/or a paper about it.
The thing is, it's stupid for people to keep thinking their systems are insanely secure. Linux users fall for this all the time, because they've heard so from lots of other Linux users. It's better to show people that it is actually possible, and maybe it leads to better secured systems too.
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:4, Insightful)
OMG! The sky is falling! The sky is falling!
You can get victimized by something that you HAVE TO CHOOSE TO RUN MANUALLY!
Nevermind Trojans. A buggy apps could destroy all of my data and it doesn't even need an author with a cheesy villan laugh.
This doesn't prove anything except that Windows losers desperately want some shadenfruede.
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:5, Insightful)
It's not that simple. A lot of ill informed users do little things to get stuff working in Ubuntu based on reading it somewhere on a blog or a forum. I've seen suggestions for network configs that leave a lot to be desired - basically creating anonymous login ftp to the users home directory with write access. And these things are tempting if you want, for example, your phone to connect to your PC over wifi and you don't generally consider security.
A little script or carefully constructed script or package that calls gksudo to get permission to hide the real gksudo behind an alias and captures the password could be attractive if it provides a "simple way to sync your smart phone with the ubuntu desktop - even supporting the iphone". We haven't seen one in the wild yet, AFAIK, but that would be pretty successful. I even think that the model for distributing the iPhone thing that went around would work pretty well given some of the advice out there especially if you read the "fix" and don't read the comment buried halfway down the page with a warning in it.
That's the trouble with the Linux ostrich based security model. It's just like the Windows security model. It relies completely on users having the understanding to set their systems up and maintain them securely and unfortunately the temptation to do quick and dirty tricks is very high in the desktop linux world.
In fairness, a default install of Ubuntu is more secure than Windows XP and Vista (not sure about win7) but the volume of quick and dirty fixes and the signal to noise on Ubuntu is such that they are really about even. As always, a classic PEBCAK.
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:4, Informative)
(sigh) That's a fallacy that needs to die. Yes, drive-by exploits are more common in the dark corners of the internet (warez, porn, etc. sites). But you're also quite likely to find regular websites that have been hacked to serve up exploits and infections. Not to mention the constant problems where ad networks serve up malicious content.
You can no longer assume that just because you don't go visit the dark corners of the internet that you're safe.
The last infection that I tracked down by reviewing our squid transparent proxy logs came from a hobby site. I don't remember if it was sewing, cooking, or some other benign type hobby. But it was nothing that would get you fired if someone saw you browsing it. The site's pages had been all altered to serve up a Javascript exploit which would infect the machine.
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Indeed Differences (Score:4, Insightful)
Um, and this is different from a Windows virus how? {...} It's not because your system is any more secure against "CLICK HERE TO WIN FREE XBOX 360" infections.
Windows XP way :
Linux way :
In short there are 2 main differences between the windows and unices environment :
There's another big difference, specific to opensource environment like Linux and BSD (and not other unices):
(Although the above only regards malwares exploiting *bugs*, not payload which are simple regular softwares).
With Vista and Seven, Microsoft has attempted to fix some of these problems. Nonetheless, the fix is still a lot noisy ("Cancel or Allow ?") to the point that some user simply start to blindly "Yes-click-through" and the protecting effect is lost. And users are still trained to install crap by downloading it from random websites.
With Linux, these advantages become a handicap regarding commercial softwares : They have to target multiple combination of softwares in distributions (unlike open-source software where the package are vetted by the distribution maintainers themselves thanks to the source being available for that puprose). And these software are not just a package in a regular repository, making them inaccessible using the regular method.
There is indeed no software which is 100% guaranteed secure.
But ! There's still a difference like between putting a real fence around your house and having a dog on one side, and just stick a paper with "don't rob us" written on it on the other side.
And, no matter what, some users will always find a way to shoot themselves in foot.
But on Unix, the gun is locked behind a glass door and must have a security pin removed before being able to shoot the foot, whereas on Windows an armed ready-shoot-gun is just a normal wall decoration.
The only "protection" that *nix/mac systems have over Windows is that no one gives a rats ass about infecting you
Ok, could we please stop with this troll now ?
At one side of the range, Linux has ratter good market shares in the servers and scientific clusters domains.
At the other side of the range, Linux has achieved quasi-monopoly in the embed domain, specially on home routers, wireless access points, small NAS/SAN, no-brand multimedia play
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
People forget, security is a process not a status. Your security process must continuously evolve to meat the always changing threats. Even if there is a major security flaw he found, it is no reason to panic as you should already have a process in place to respond to new threats. This is why I'm employed.........
Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:5, Insightful)
There is one crucial difference that really does make linux MUCH more secure, and oddly, it's the one thing nobody mentions when discussing it.
Linux users (hardly ever) download and install software from the internet. We download and install packages from repositories.
A huge amount of Linux security comes from the fact that we've taken the task of identifying malware from the real thing, and given it to trained professionals rather than Joe Sixpack. The average user simply cannot tell the difference between a useful piece of freeware and a bugridden-malware-spreading piece of add-ware.
The people who populate distribution repositories generally can. Then we add other layers on top - like using digital signatures so the client machine can be sure the package you asked it to fetch is in fact the package that got downloaded (thus protecting against somebody replacing a package with a malware program in the same filename on a mirror site) etc. etc.
That grounds up linux is probably a more secure design than windows I don't doubt, I also know that it's far from being anything like as secure a design as we imagine- especially as it moves into the desktop realm. But - and this is a big but, since the easiest way to install anything on linux remains using your distro's provided tools to install from your distro's repositories (for the ubuntu crowd... I mean "using synaptic") - the risk of malware infection is kept remarkably low - not because linux is so secure, but because infecting the repo's will be very hard indeed and the software in those repos are checked by people who are *trained* in computers.
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:4, Insightful)
I didn't say it *never* happens, I said it's very rare and much harder than cracking individual's machines.
It can happen, it has happened, and even then it didn't put the end-users at risk because the distributions instantly shut down the boxes did an audit and released them again only when they were checked - and had the keys replaced to ensure none of the packages that were on at the time of the break-in could install anymore.
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Re:I think you've already decided... (Score:4, Insightful)
I agree - this is going to become a problem. It never used to be, howtos were reliable documentation because we were a small community and the people reading them would have at least a basic understanding of what you're doing - howtos were there to get details.
Nowadays... this is going to become an issue. The answer is probably to use the same approach we took with repo's. Make the proper distro forums clearly and prominently available to the user so he finds them first, rather than googling. Lead them to the sources of information that the good guys control, and hope to answer them there with sufficient frequency that there is no point in looking at random blogposts.
I doubt that's a comprehensive answer, but it would at least mitigate things. The other is to ensure that the social aspect of FOSS comes with the disk I guess, when you hand out that ubuntu disk - make sure you hand out details on your local LUG. Get the newbs involved in the community around them, make sure that the person they ask first is somebody they can (probably) trust.
It's all things we can mitigate but I agree, it won't remove the problem, it can - at best- keep the potential targets few enough to reduce the attractiveness of this vector (and I don't think we're nearly good enough at this stage to even do that, I just think we could become so).
Basically - the problem you point out is a social one, social problems require social solutions - and those are never 100%.
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Re:It does harm!!!! (Score:4, Informative)
It doesn't matter what you do now, some asshat is going to read the description of the "linux malware" reproduce it without bragging about what a l33t script kiddie he is and your going to take the burn for it. As for it being a linux malware
I can understand that
I'm not sure that having the user specifically install a software package that specifically runs downloaded programs is the same class of malware as windose user are typically plagued by anyways. This is more social engineering than a linux security hole and more of a boinc security problem than a linux problem
So basically your saying is Linux is oh-so-secure that you have to trick users into installing your malware.
you may be able to install into .bashrc but it's not going to work in cron without privilege escalation or a security hole; usually only widosers mindlessly type in privelged account passwords to install software to run in limited accounts. In fact I'm calling BS on this, you don't have this malware, you just have a plausible idea for it that you've not bothered to implement.
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If you have to ask, your ethical compass is b0rked (Score:5, Insightful)
Seriously, what is it with people not knowing right from wrong, or accepting responsibility for their own decisions? You're the one who has to sleep with whatever decision you make - why try to foist the blame on someone else if you decide wrong?
That's like one guy who said "My best friends' girlfriend wants to sleep with me - should I do it so I can show him what a sl*t she is?" If you're asking, it's because you want to do it and be able to say "don't blame me - everyone said it was okay !"
BTW - Good luck with whatever you decide, but a lot of us have been in the position of being able to do a lot worse, or been offered $$$ to do a lot worse, and you should be thankful we didn't have to get the group-think thing going before refusing.
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Re:If you have to ask, your ethical compass is b0r (Score:5, Funny)
That's like one guy who said "My best friends' girlfriend wants to sleep with me - should I do it so I can show him what a sl*t she is?"
Of course, why actually sleep with her when you can just brag about her offer on slashdot!
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Re: (Score:3, Insightful)
Re:If you have to ask, your ethical compass is b0r (Score:5, Funny)
Yeah, really! Ethics is easy!
Will releasing it make you money? No? Then don't do it.
See how easy that was?
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consult with a real security professional (Score:5, Informative)
Re:consult with a real security professional (Score:5, Insightful)
Should people run SELinux? Prolly not, it's a pain the ass for Joe user. It's hard enough for admins who know what they're doing (anyone who's had an SELinux error and not checked the right log knows what I'm talking about.) Distros need to play nice with SELinux or provide a better alternative for Joe user.
Should Sysadmins run SELinux? If you've got sensitive data on it, damn straight--you need that kind of protection along with the service removal and permissions hardening you do to Linux machines you really want to keep "safe." If you don't and it's not even a production server, why bother with anything beyond Permissive (or perhaps just Targetted services.)
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FYI If you find yourself responding in any way that involves a CLI my grandma is going to get annoyed, call me, and ask how to deal with it and I'm going to need a new solution.
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Re:consult with a real security professional (Score:5, Insightful)
Or heck, this is *Linux* we are talking about here.
Release it, and they will patch.
Give it to Theo Raadt of OpenBSD fame. In a week all of the attack vectors will be well defined, and source code fixes being pushed downstream.
For BSD admittedly, but once the vectors are well defined, the Linux guys are more than able to 'translate' and make the same fixes.
That can only be a good thing.
It isn't like you need to worry about the company suing you for pointing out a security problem in their product when you tell them!
Besides, no matter how well behaved malware system you write, no matter what possible evils your imagination has come up with that it could be twisted into, the script kiddies out there already have much much better tools than that.
Just release it, sitting on it only gives the black hats more time to use the same exact security flaws for evil.
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Consult with an attorney about the CFAA too. (Score:5, Informative)
You might also really want to talk to a lawyer who knows the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act. [cornell.edu] At a minimum, you may need to worry about 18 USC 1030(a)(5). Pay attention to the definition of "damage" and "loss" in 18 USC 1030(e)(8),(11).
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Commendable (Score:5, Interesting)
.. but sounds like a lot of work to prove a relatively straight foward point.
It's actually been my opinion that Linux in the hands of someone who doesn't know how to use it can in some situations be less secure than windows.
My reasoning for this is that:
1) Newbie Linux users who are having problems with their systems will rpetty much run anything as any user you tell them to in a desperate hope to get Xorg working again
2) Linux commands on their own can look very cryptic to the uninitiated.. add into that the scripting abilities of most shells.. and a new Linux user won't be able to differentiate a malicious command from one that will get their nvidia driver working again
3) The out-of-box remote admin abilities of Linux are excellent.
4) Standard tools like nc can easily be used to establish out-connecting remote shell sessions
5) OR you can just get them to wget and execute your favourite piece of malware.
Re:Commendable (Score:5, Interesting)
Yeah but Windows suffers the same thing, when Windows goes wonky people will ask over the Internet for random strangers to fix it.
"Here download this program, run it, ignore any warnings, choose 'allow' for every UAC prompt, and then it will give me remote control of your system so I can 'fix' it for you."
My son's system got hacked that way when his older cousin came over and the game he was playing did an update and his character was hovering instead of walking. Instead of asking me to fix it (it was a Nividia driver issue) he got some random stranger from Ohio. I was busy in the other room with my wife and monitoring another cousin who came over on a different system. I had to remove the remote control trojan, and rootkit, and then fixed the driver issue, after learning that he let some stranger into my son's system and pwned it. Lucky there was no bank account or other info, as my son is too young for that. Lucky I was able to find the malware and remove it. Just to be safe I even reformatted the system. It only took 15 minutes for that to happen, while I was busy on something else, and my wife isn't tech savvy enough to know what the kids are doing on the computers. Watch one nephew, and the other nephew is doing something he shouldn't be doing. My brother had to disable their computers at his house because of stuff like that, he even tried Linux, and they managed to get Linux infected that way you described. So my brother zero formatted the hard drives and then took out the RAM, until they grow up and show enough responsibility to have working systems again.
Teenagers, seesh, looking for the quick fix, but adults are just as dumb and fall for the same thing as there are so many helpful strangers on the Internet willing to help/hack the system for them.
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You've failed to understand the real world (Score:5, Insightful)
Malware can exist for any platform.
However, real actual malware in the wild requires an eco-system to support it. Providing you can compromise a machine proves nothing. Proving that an ecosystem can actually exist on Linux machines would require completely releasing it into the wild, and subjecting innocent people to it.
I don't know about you, but I know where that falls when it comes to ethics and it ain't on the right side of it.
treat it like any other proof of concept exploit? (Score:5, Insightful)
Why not treat this code like you would any other proof of concept of a security exploit? if the goal to to prove that security vulnerabilities exist and should be fixed then show this code to whomever it will help actually fix those holes but try not to release it to the public at large while it still represents a real threat. Show it to package and distribution maintainers and make recommendations on how they can improve their security configurations to prevent it from running but don't release it as a build your own rootkit tool if it has served its purpose and people are making a serious effort to address the issues it highlights.
Newly retrodden ground (Score:5, Insightful)
This question is posed as if this is new ground. As if this hasn't been done before - without questions of morality and with distinctly less noble intent. All this worry about inserting a malicious payload is wasted. The script kiddies already have better options at their disposal.
Show it only to while hat hackers (Score:5, Interesting)
Show it to distro developers and repository maintainers, people who do security work, etc. Let them look at it and see if they can defend against it. Don't release it on unsuspecting users, publish the directions to remove it, and defend against it so no one else can do it either. Putting malware in the wild is not the way to get white-hats attention, but it is the way to get black hat's attention. The white hats are usually well behind the black hats with malware that's been released in the wild. Give this to white hats and not black hats.
Post it as security bug against all the distros you've confirmed it works against. That'll attract the attention you want and not the attention you don't.
Dear Slashdot (Score:5, Insightful)
I'm fed up with the general consensus that people are able to walk around outside without being punched in the face. After all, anyone can be punched in the face at any time, so I've been thinking about going up to random people on the street and punching them in the face. People need to learn to take reasonable steps to protect themselves from being punched in the face, such as wearing full-face motorcycle helmets at all times, and how are they going to learn that if I don't show them? But now I'm having second thoughts about whether or not it would be ethical to go around randomly punching people in the face. Does anyone have any advice?
Re:Dear Slashdot (Score:4, Funny)
Yeah but if you punch me in the face, expect me to use Akidio on you and throw you into the nearest wall and use your attack against you. Ordinary people will get punched in the face, but we martial arts students will know what to do if someone is trying to punch us in the face. Grab your wrist, spin around, and throw you into a wall. I studied several forms of martial arts, and I could do a simple block, or just grab your fist and crush it with my hand thus breaking your bones in your hand, or dodge and do a hammer fist on your chest and crack some ribs.
Did I mention I am a pirate ninja? :)
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Re:Dear Slashdot (Score:5, Funny)
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Re:Dear Slashdot (Score:4, Insightful)
People do NOT walk around the world indiscriminately. They avoid bad neighborhoods, treat suspicious people like aliens, profile people in any way possible, and then react. Take a white male and walk them around times square, then a full body tattooed, gauged ear, sub-dermal implanted carnival exhibit and walk them through the same area and watch the difference in how people react. They may be the nicest person in the world but the women will still hug their purses and the men will lower their heads. Ever heard "Don't look at anybody on the subway/bus/EL/whatever"? It's because people acknowledge that there are mouthbreathing retards that will fuck you up because you looked at them funny or because they like your briefcase.
People DO interact with the internet indiscriminately. Most can't tell a good site from a bad site, don't know the difference between a "funnycats.avi" and "funnycats.avi.exe", blah blah blah blah blah. Chances are if you are reading this you have fixed someone's computer because of this haphazard e-disregard, so I don't need to tell you that most people just don't get safe browsing practices.
This guys issue is that there is a select, very vocal group of people who think they are safe on the net but aren't, so he wrote a proof-of-concept to show them that it doesn't matter what platform you are on, there is no replacement for safe browsing practices (and not using default passwords, and and and and and...).
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Re:Dear Slashdot (Score:4, Insightful)
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release it (Score:4, Insightful)
Any programmer worth a grain of salt could write the same thing at the drop of a hat. I don't
understand where it would be all that interesting.
Just in time for Chrome OS (Score:3, Funny)
Which simply shows that the lack of Linux malware isn't because Linux is somehow magically superior, but simply because nobody has taken the time to write any.
Even better, pretty soon we'll have clueless noobs with their new netbooks running Google's ChromeOS (which they don't know is really Linux because Google is doing everything they can to avoid the "L" word). Now they can get pwned too!!
Smell test (Score:5, Insightful)
The claim is that a PHP injection on a web server is going to also infect user-owned tarballs and wine executables and root-owned shell scripts without exploiting a privilege escalation hole? Either his webserver is configured to run as root, or this claim doesn't pass the smell test.
Malware and Worms in GNU/Linux and *BSD (Score:5, Interesting)
Its whole purpose is to help white-hat hackers point out that a Linux system can be turned into a botnet client
It would be nice to see the code. As it stands, I am surprised that this "news" made it this far, with no links of any kind.
No one credible claims that malware is impossible in GNU/Linux or *BSD. In fact, since UNIX is a much more robust networking OS, maintaining a botnet should be helluva lot easier than on Windows. What we have with a free OS, though, is something that proprietary OS users will never have: a complete and total control over our security policy and every other aspect of our software environment. When and if a vector is identified, our security policy will promptly change to nip it in the bud.
A Speculative Example
Lately I've been thinking about one major vector: the human-assisted privilege escalation. Take the latest Ubuntu and imagine a piece of software which runs with user privileges and does the following: it tricks the user into thinking that it is the automatic updater. Lacking in both expertise and time, I am not going to do a proof of concept, but how hard can it be? You just need to draw a window named "Update Manager" using the standard Gnome API, list a few bogus updates anyone would find legit, with version number irrelevant to their day-to-day life (e.g. binutils), wait for the user to click [Install Updates], and then "gksu pwn_you.sh". The user will enter the password, and your work is done. Then, of course, you still need to draw some progress bars to lull the user into believing that an update is going on, but that's all just an icing on the cake.
If anyone can see why this won't work, I would like to hear it.
Looks scary, right? Wrong. Because the solution is as simple as changing the default policy. Make it so that the default behavior is to notify only. On every system update the user should be told: "Go start the updater via the system menu. By the way, if you EVER see an "updater" you didn't start yourself, you are being pwned." Make sure that the system menu is strictly read-only, and even the dimmest user will be safe.
This won't be implemented in Windows. Why? I really cannot guess why Microsoft's security policy seems to be designed from ground up to fuck the user, but it is. The usual excuse seems to be: "it's easy to use". But whatever is the reason, you just cannot make a proprietary platform secure because you cannot pop the hood open. With a free OS, you can.
More Windoes trolls. (Score:4, Insightful)
I have a strong suspicion that this whole "question" is merely an attempt by Windows marketdroids to spread one of their favorite FUD formulas: "Linux is not really secure, it's just too unpopular to be targeted by malware writers". Please note how often it is mentioned in otherwise content-free comments.
There is no actual "malware". All author claims is that he wrote something that demonstrates the fact that a program executed on a Linux box by a user has that user's access privileges and can do stuff that the user does not expect or like. That's at best a trojan horse -- without capability to gain superuser privileges or compromise other users or hosts, such "malware" is firmly in the range of stupid pranks -- slightly below changing someone's wallpaper to goatse and slightly above asking someone to check out the Last Measure web site. It has nothing to do with millions-strong botnets and hours-to-worldwide-pandemic worms that make Windows such a great platform for crooks and vandals.
Better release it correctly... (Score:4, Funny)
ask yourself this question (Score:4, Insightful)
I say release the ideas, or at least document the concepts with pseudocode so that the average skript kiddie can't just download and modify - they'd at least need to spend the time implementing it in some language.
This way, people qualified to fix the problem can review your proof of concept and fix the problem, but you're limiting the exposure to the average bored 15 year old who's skillset doesn't extend too far beyond downloading a .c file and running gcc.
Open Source it (Score:5, Funny)
Re:Malware? (Score:4, Funny)
Two typos in (what was supposed to be) 19 characters. I wish all malware writers were that sloppy.
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Re:SELinux on a a server? (Score:5, Informative)
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Re:SELinux on a a server? (Score:4, Informative)
Sorta like how you define what a user is allowed to touch on the file system by assigning group membership and file permissions.
If the SELinux policies are very tight and the service is well behaved and you can easily define the allowed actions, things work well. It just gets trickier when daemons are not well defined and tend to talk to random ports and touch random files. Just like coming up with a reasonable set of permissions and group membership for a user that allows them to get their job done without constantly pestering you, it can be a bit of an art form to define SELinux policies.
(There's probably more to it then describing it as file permissions on steroids, but it gets the general idea across. The system is only as secure as the labeling and policies.)
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Re: (Score:3, Funny)
The millions of exploits for Windows prove that there are people ready to capitalize on any flaw.
Confirmed. Linux users are now anti-capitalists
Re: (Score:3, Informative)
...yes. Malware that has to be manually run.
How utterly pathetic.
At least you can say that Windows has one thing on Linux. Installation of Trojans is automated. No end user interaction is required.
It would be interesting to see how far a manual trojan could get on Linux...
Re:How cool is that?! [Re:Release it.] (Score:4, Interesting)
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Re:Release it. (Score:5, Insightful)
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