Saying No To Promotions Away From Tech? 410
lunchlady55 writes "I have been happily working for my current employer for five years. After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role, oriented toward 'administrative duties and management.' We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week. Every week. Including holidays. My question is: have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out? Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"
Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount (Score:2, Insightful)
Take it if they are going to pay you extra to be on call.
Comment removed (Score:4, Insightful)
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Unfortunately parent is correct, your chances of turning this down and keeping your current job are very slim. Did your boss give a reason you "have to" move into an administrative role? That sounds a bit fishy to me, and if I were you I might take it up with my 2nd line manager to verify the reasoning behind it.
Idiot (Score:4, Insightful)
Eventually all things become a "job", so take the most cash you can get and rest peacefully at night knowing you will only be woken up 20 times a year at 3am instead of 100.
Stay away from the dark side!! (Score:3, Insightful)
The technical aspect of my job is what I enjoy, not ensuring we have adequate cover, or that Joe actually came in at 0900 and not 0905 again!!! Your technical role will slowly be reduced until you are more concerned about rota's, quota's and time management...*shudder*
Please clarify... (Score:3, Insightful)
So, are you saying that, as a non-technical manager or administrator, you'll have to work more and be on call, compared to the technical people who work their 4/40 and are off the rest of the time?
Why would the managers be on call all the time and the tech people not? That seems backwards to me, or maybe I just misunderstood...
Either way, take a hike and find a better job. Companies are still hiring - but they're only hiring people who can earn their keep (i.e. you bring in more money than you cost). If you are a good leader, you will be able to sell yourself on that.
The correct way... (Score:2, Insightful)
Only you can answer this (Score:5, Insightful)
Been there done that (Score:2, Insightful)
Where I need to be. (Score:5, Insightful)
bad omen (Score:3, Insightful)
take the promotion and start looking elsewhere. Any manager who does not ASK you if you want to do a job is bad, and things will only get worse.
Your manager should have asked (Score:5, Insightful)
An annual review, besides being a great opportunity to get a raise or some additional PTO, is when you should be discussing your plans and goals with your manager. Get this straight, you are not being "forced" to move into management. You can always leave. Your manager values your contribution, and possibly they are in a bind for some management help. If that's the case, offer to take on some management tasks while they interview for a new supervisor. Particularly if this is your first five years of employment, there's nothing wrong with wanting to stay technical, and they should be open to that.
The Peter Principle (Score:5, Insightful)
Sounds like a nice example of the Peter Principle in action.
Can't you persuade management that (which i assume is part of your problem, apart from the working hours thing) you simply won't be the right person for this job, and that you'd rather keep doing something that you are good at?
Re:Try it! You could be the first! (Post?) (Score:4, Insightful)
Most managers are not on call. This sounds like his manager is delegating roles out to people so he can 'manage' better. Or why work hard your self when you can get someone else to do it for you. I would go over that managers head ad see what really is going on. Losing your 3 day week ends is going to suck. But working 5 days and being on call the other 2 for every week sounds wrong. Rotating on call weekends fine. Every weekend, sound like they are trying to get you to quit.
Does this new manager see you as a threat? This could be his (her?) way of getting you to quit. You quitting is better then them firing you. I would talk to your manager's boss to see what is going on. Your manager might be trying to get rid of you.
Re:Stay away from the dark side!! (Score:5, Insightful)
Re:Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount (Score:5, Insightful)
Honestly, I'd rather get paid less than be on call.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
The step to management is barbed, it's very hard to go back once you've stepped out of the firing line for very long.
it's only money (Score:4, Insightful)
say yes and that you are looking forward to the 50% increase in pay + 30% bonuses + 100k stock options with 2 year vesting.
if they blink, you know they aren't serious about having you in management.
Intern to Technical Lead .. (Score:3, Insightful)
If you still have to clock-on then you ain't a lead anything just another replaceable company drone. Time to move on. But don't tell them until you have the other job lined up. For your next job go for the donut downsizing [dilbert.com] executive position
Re:You can't say NO (Score:2, Insightful)
Yep, experienced people with technical skills are still not that easy to find, so don't worry too much about these big unemployment numbers floating around. Those include all those unskilled or trades people who were working construction jobs or retail jobs who now can't find work because lots of crappy retail stores have closed and there isn't much new construction.
Starting looking for a new job right away, and when you leave, do NOT give any notice. Just leave that same day, to spite them. However, tell your new employer you need to give them 2 weeks' notice (because it looks bad to the new employer if you don't), so instead of working at the old place for 2 weeks, just screw them and take a 2-week vacation. Obviously, they have no respect for you, so you shouldn't show them any respect in return.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
It's due to management believing that if you make X amount of
money, you are supposed to be in management.
Which tells you that the management is bad, and you should
not be working for the losers anyway.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
That's been my experience. They offer promotions up to line management (the lowest level) of people they want to keep, then move to a contract/outsource/offshore model and let the rest go. The 24/7 including holidays on call requirement sounds like something a company would do when they are expecting to have a lot of folk in India doing the technical work.
If that's the company's direction, then I would expect the OP to be let go at some point if he doesn't take the promotion. The company is expecting to be able to replace his technical role with someone cheaper.
Ask your boss..... (Score:4, Insightful)
It depends why you're getting "promoted."
If they feel you're incompetent, but a hard worker, then they might be trying to do you a favor by moving you into a different role where they feel you're better suited. Your chances of keeping your existing position in this case are not very good.
Otherwise, you should be asking your boss, not Slashdot. He's the only one who knows where he stands. Try to find a middle ground between being a pussy and being a dick. Tell him you appreciate the offer, but that you find a great deal of satisfaction in your current position. Tell him you'd prefer to remain in that role, and ASK HIM "hypothetically, how would you feel if I declined the offer?"
Just like people who are actually trying to get promotions, the odds of getting what you want are much better if you actually ask.
Re:Stay away from the dark side!! (Score:2, Insightful)
100% agree. I had a manager that questioned every time that i was 5 mins late. I tracked the number of hours I worked late, covering for others when their cars broke down etc. When my manager next pulled me aside I haded the sheet and said, dock my pay for the 30 mins I have been late this week, but please also process my 10 hours of overtime with documented badge in badge out times. They stopped bothering me.
As for the topic, I would say that if management doesn't have to be 100% non-technical. It is what you make it. I managed a team of people, did 10% management work, 90% technical and my boss was happy as they did little to no management of my team and we continued to out perform other groups so they let us be. You can make any position what you want it to be if there is a good higher level management above. So look far above, if you like what you see, take it. If there is micro management, run for the hills.
Re:Stay tech at all costs (Score:4, Insightful)
Problem is, you stop doing tech, you start to become obsolete, so as soon as you move to management, you start the "best-before due date" clock.
With the accelerating pace of change, a few years out and you'll never be able to get back in - and you'll be obsolete at managing the next big thing ...
there's a reason why so many old farts ^W^W people write "you can have my keyboard when you pry it from my cold dead hands".
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
I'd change the company... or maybe not. (Score:1, Insightful)
I'm not an anonymous coward, my name is Karel, just don't feel like I need to register for 1 reply.
If you're going to do "administrative tasks and management" for a group of highly educated IT professionals, then go for it, no question about it. You'll be in close contact with them (that's up to you) and will have the chance to keep your hand on the pulse.
If you're going to do the same for smiling guys at the other end of the world, then change your employer. There are companies that already understood the fact, that "cost saving" is not the right solution for their IT issues.
You won't keep your tech job, sorry. It will go to half educated idiots in India, whether you like it or not. (My personal experience.)
Don't do that... (Score:4, Insightful)
Don't play the family card. Very, very few employers take kindly to that. If your work is valued and you trust your boss (you've worked with him or her for several years now, right?), tell them the truth. You really enjoy the technical parts of the job, feel it's your forte, and that - quite honestly - 4 tens is a big benefit for you personally. This may get them to tip their hand as to why they want you in management. Do they need a good tencnical lead, or are they just short handed. Do they feel you'd be better in a manag. position - i.e. your technical work isn't in line with their expectations but you're a good employee?
Making the move is more about why they're moving you than anything else. If you really like the tech support say so. Know that your financial advancement may slow or stop in the company, and that in a year or two you'll be looking for an advanced position somewhere else. Consulting isn't really a viable option if your allergic to management and 5x8 with a pager the other times - it's a combination of both of those. Then again, if they really need a tech guy in management, it might be your opportunity to keep climbing and make sure things run smoothly in the board room instead of the server closet.
Why? (Score:1, Insightful)
More than likely, this is the beginning of the end for you there. I was in a similar situation a few years ago and I declined ("I'm good at managing technology. Not people!"). While I was able to keep the job for a few more years, I wasn't in the loop anymore and raises and bonuses ceased. PHBs spend their emotional energy trying to climb the ladder and have an innate distrust of folks who don't think like they do. I mean, why would someone want to stay on the assembly line making widgets??
First, you need to know why they picked you. Is your current position going away? Do they think they are doing you a favor? Does putting your salary in the mgmt column ease some budget pressure? Are they trying to make you quit to avoid paying severance and unemployment (this is my first guess)? Knowing the 'why' will clue you into what your bosses reaction will be when you tell him you don't want the job. It should be pretty simple to decide what to do once you know the 'real' reason for the 'offer'. Just make sure you don't show your hand while digging for the truth of the matter.
If you determine that this situation IS the first nail in the coffin, then your sole objective needs to be "Extend the death process until you find another job.". In my situation, declining the offer kept me in the job a LOT longer. A LOT!! I'da made maybe 4 PHB circle jerks before twisting off and being escorted out. You may be able to control the urge to strangle kittens when confronted with mindless office politics. I am not.
So, find out if your answer has the potential to end the relationship completely. If yes, give them the answer they want to hear and spend every waking moment after that trying to find a new job (Note: smaller companies are better fits for people who want to advance but stay on the tech side). Also, pray to the god of irrationality that the jobs package being touted actually produces jobs.
Good luck!
p.s. If you decide to take the management position, can you provide and email where I can send a resume?? ;)
-OR- avoid being unemployed by (Score:5, Insightful)
Or, avoid being unemployed by telling them that you _strongly_ prefer your current job, but that you care about the company and want to do what is best for the company, even if it means doing another job.
If they decide to make you a manager anyway, at least you will be drawing a paycheck, instead of unemployment, while you look for a new job.
That's bad advice. (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep, experienced people with technical skills are still not that easy to find,...
Everyone I know who's looking for technical help is getting swamped with resumes from qualified people. It's just a matter of weeding them out.
Starting looking for a new job right away, and when you leave, do NOT give any notice. Just leave that same day, to spite them. However, tell your new employer you need to give them 2 weeks' notice (because it looks bad to the new employer if you don't), so instead of working at the old place for 2 weeks, just screw them and take a 2-week vacation.
I see. So, you're saying he should lie. It will probably catch up with him one day and if he's like me, he may be a terrible liar.
That wasn't very good advice to give.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:2, Insightful)
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
I'll add...
Good luck with all the shit the indians will be throwing your way...
then, in 5 to 10 years, they'll count again, and figure out that they've been had, and that they spent more repairing all the crap than would have cost them doing the work in house
Re:You can't say NO (Score:4, Insightful)
Exactly. Short and too the point. You don't owe them anything for this so-called promotion. Negotiate the highest salary you can get and then spend your time getting that resume polished.
Re:Wow, where to start (Score:1, Insightful)
Yeah, I think I saw that movie too! Wasn't Ashton Kutcher in that, and Jennifer Aniston?
:-o
What a bullshitter.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
That's very short-sighted. Maybe his current manager is a complete jerk and deserves it. Even so, the manager isn't the one who will take the pain while they scramble to find somebody to fill his spot. It will be one of the guys he worked with taking on two people's jobs for at least a couple of weeks. And lord help him if he does well at it. He may get stuck at the workload for a long time, since management will have no incentive to hire--they're getting the same work for less money. Then in a few years, when he's looking into a new job, that same guy he screwed over may be in a position to affect whether or not he's hired. A simple "I don't know if we should hire him, he bailed on his last job by quitting with no notice because he was offered a promotion" would be enough to sabotage any chance he had. Quitting without notice would require VERY extenuating circumstances to be acceptable. Like if your manager was killing hookers and storing them in the break room freezer. I'd probably quit without notice then.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:3, Insightful)
Then all the money you're no longer spending on booze must be part of the promotion!
But in all seriousness, on-call means different things to different companies. For some places, it means that your phone is on at all times and you'll answer it. For others, it means that you'll be expected to fix things via ssh at 2am if the need arises. And sometimes, it means showing up to the office in person. Know the expectations, because you'll probably either end up wasting a ton of effort going beyond the call of duty, or get fired for not going far enough.
Name your price... (Score:3, Insightful)
And got it
Less than a year later I left the company and went to a job where I was an HPUX admin/Sybase DBA and commanded an even higher salary.
Change can be good....
A couple of years ago I applied for a management job in a 4,000 employee company and took it without a raise in pay. I hated it
After a year of that I took a job with a local company as a developer, and accepted a 10% cut in pay to work for a 50 person, family run business. I love my job now and am good enough I rarely put in more than 40 hours/week.
I learned from experience that I am willing to do a job I don't want as long as I'm paid well for my misery. And I'm willing to take a dream job for less money as long as I enjoy going to work each day.
But taking a job I don't like for pay that doesn't make it worthwhile when there are other options
Choose wisely my friend....
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Alienating anyone in the field is a very bad idea, because it WILL come back to bite you eventually, and you never know who might prove useful down the line.
Re:Take it as long as they pay you an extra amount (Score:3, Insightful)
Yep, it is all about money. Nothing says you can't tinker/dabble with tech if you want, but, having more money is always a good thing. Just make sure and negotiate what you think your time is worth if they do want you available and 'on call'. Negotiate that you get paid at least straight time if you do get called in after hours, that will help insure that you aren't called for something that really isn't needed. You can get OT even if you are salaried, I've done it before on W2 gigs....just make sure and negotiate it in there. My time is VERY valuable to me, I don't give it away for free, and I've noticed when they have to pay me extra to come in, I have to come in less often....only in emergencies.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
Bingo. Cleaning up after shoddy Indian sub-contractors has been my bread & butter since May or so.
Do It and Do It Well (Score:1, Insightful)
"I have been happily working for my current employer for five years. After moving up the ranks within my department from Intern to Technical Lead, a new manager essentially told me that I have to move into a different role oriented towards, 'administrative duties and management.' We are a 24x7 shop, and will now be required to work five 8-hour days rather than four 10-hour days and be on call during the other two days of the week. Every week. Including holidays. My question is, have any Slashdotters been forced into a non-technical role, and how did it work out? Has anyone said 'No thanks' to this kind of promotion and managed to keep their jobs?"
Don't fight it, go with the flow. People with great technical skills and great people management skills are difficult to find and retain.
Spend a year in the management trenches and do the best job you can. Try to earn an award for being the best manager in the company.
After that your resume is made of solid gold.
Someone with technical skills who knows how to deal with management (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.
Someone with management skills who knows how to deal with technical people (because they've been on that side) is an amazingly good find.
The company is "forcing" you to become a more marketable employee?
Take the opportunity and run with it!
Re:You can't say NO (Score:4, Insightful)
You don't need to get drunk to be unable to drive. A couple of beers will already put you "under the influence", as far as laws are concerned.
Re:Negotiate (Score:3, Insightful)
Sure, if you were independently wealthy, you would probably not work for a company, but would find whatever it was you wanted to do, and do it on your own. But I don't see a reason it has to be a pure binary: independently wealthy people do whatever they want, everyone else works shit jobs just to get paid. If you have no options, sure; but many people have a range of choices of jobs, some of which they prefer more than others, and I don't see any reason to weight money above job enjoyment.
Don't burn bridges (or coworkers still on them) (Score:5, Insightful)
If you leave on good terms, you may be able to use those folks as a reference beyond "Yes, Joe was employed here from 2005 to 2009." If you leave people dealing with a festering pile of crap because you were being pissy, that time range is the *best* you should expect to get, and you may get worse. Remember, just because you're jumping to a new job doesn't mean that it's guaranteed to last. Odds are fair that once you're established in an industry you're going to stay in that industry or a related one because that's where many of your networking contacts are and they'll help you find future jobs. That means you're going to run into people you've worked with in the past.
A friend has closed product development consulting contracts because he did a favor for someone 10 years ago and that now-senior-executive remembered him. Be that remembered person.
If you're being laid off, this is even more important. When a site I was at was closed years back (and I declined the opportunity to relocate), I got thanks for being professional and helpful with closing things down, documenting, etc. I had no problems at all with listing those folks as references, because *they were happy with me.*
Basically if the payoff for being pissy is to make you feel good for 15 minutes, just go have a beer with friends instead. You'll feel just as good, and it may cost you less in the long run.
Managers are on call to make up for employee slack (Score:3, Insightful)
Managers are on call to make up for employee slack.
They get paid a salary, and they end up on call in case one of their employees babies is stolen by a dingo, or something else happens which results in the employee unavailable. The concept is called coverage, and applies not only to sales people, but to anyone who needs to answer to a pager, a cell phone, a BlackBerry, or is otherwise critical to the business because someone has to be ultimately responsible and fix things when problems arise.
You also have to consider that the costs of an additional person are way out of whack with the TCO for an employee. Your salary accounts for ~1/3 of the cost to the employer for having you around, if you count facilities and energy costs and taxes. This is only going to get worse as taxes go up to cover the costs of government spending on things like the war in Afghanistan and on universal healthcare. So it's a lot easier to increase responsibility at the cost of a small increase in salary and some title inflation than it is to hire more people.
I also expect that other posts in this thread are correct, and that you've been selected as someone to keep on the payroll prior to a pending round of cost-cutting and/or outsourcing.
A "best case" scenario is this is to put you on the hook for the end of the year holiday season.
In situations like this it's generally best to see which way the wind is blowing, and keep your options open, including the option of alternative employment.
Yes, I know people who have quit over being told their vacation was cancelled.
-- Terry
Re:Negotiate (Score:5, Insightful)
My viewpoint is different, I suppose. I'm not independently wealthy, but if I were, you'd still be hard-pressed to get me not to touch a computer for longer than about a week. I *do* like my job, and if something came around that doubled my salary, I probably wouldn't take it unless it was substantially similar to what I'm doing now (IT Consulting...mainly software these days).
I don't work for myself, but my job is more to me than just a means to an end. I like doing it. It not only provides me with money, but it is (mostly) enjoyable and challenging. What does it matter? A lot.
Re:Negotiate (Score:4, Insightful)
You have basically summarized the book "The millionaire next door".
Re:You can't say NO (Score:3, Insightful)
They should have explained already if they have any respect for you and what you do.
Only smaller companies actually respect the employees today. Look for places with 50 or less employees total to get some respect and recognition anymore.
I've got a desk full of awards that did not mean crap at at fortune 50 company. They change upper and mid managers so much that nobody ever remembers what you did let alone who you are and what you do......
Until you leave and they cant hire anyone to do what you did... They stop calling with questions when you say, "my consultation rate is $120.00 an hour with a minimum of 1 hour billing..."
Re:You can't say NO (Score:3, Insightful)
Alienating anyone in the field is a very bad idea, because it WILL come back to bite you eventually, and you never know who might prove useful down the line.
If what you are saying is true, please explain then, why do companies feel free to alienate workers en masse?
Different streams (Score:3, Insightful)
As a Brit now working/living in the US, one of the cultural differences I encountered was that in the US, management is really considered a promotion/reward from an engineering position.
Don't get fooled by the image. You need to be aware that management is NOT a promotion, especially if it doesn't come with a pay rise. Its actually a profession change that requires a completely different skill set than what makes a good software developer. It makes no more sense to 'promote' an engineer into management than it does to 'promote' a plumber into banking. If you're popular at work by being a good engineer it may come as a real shock to realise that you're actually now only a mediocre manager.
The other wierdness that I found in the US is that apparently most recruiters think Engineers technical skills are only as good/relevant as your last job. Like they think you can ever forget C++ or whatever. This means that your decision about whether to accept a management role at your current company means you are actually making a fairly binding career choice. It may be a lot harder to get another hands-on job if you have no recent technical experience.
I guess it comes down to whether you chose to study engineering just as a step to moving into management, or whether (like most of us) you're acutally a geek who enjoys it for its own end. As a self-test to determine whether you really want to be a manager, ask yourself if you'd rather be programming or working with Microsoft Project all day.
Re:Negotiate (Score:4, Insightful)
> One of the things that constantly bothers me when interviewing older workers is the fact that, in many ways, tech is no longer a joy....it's
> all job. I've found myself in that position more and more as I get older; building a Linux kernel is now tedious instead of exciting. I
> haven't had a GNU/Hurd install in years.
Well, anything you do day in and day out is going to be tedious. Expecting that anything is going to stay fresh, new, and exciting forever is nearly always going to be a disappointment (and I think is what ends as many marriages as careers).
The real question here is.... is the choice boredom or management? Or is that a false choice?
Linux kernel builds are no longer exciting. In fact, I use stock kernels almost exclusively now and fight hard any time someone wants to do anything that involves custom modules (not that there is never a need, just that its enough management overhead on an ongoing basis to be worth making damned sure its the right solution).
However, I just a side project to learn Java and write some servlets to run under tomcat. Thats still pretty exciting. Tech guys can still keep things fresh through lateral moves. Or moves to other companies.
I say take the pay increase, and start sending out resumes. Then be sure to use your new current salary in negotiations. Even if the net result is a loss, I would rather be in the negotiating position of making more than they are offering and "considering a pay cut if the job seems right" than to be making what I make now and trying to ask for more. Just a thought.
-Steve
It Depends (Score:3, Insightful)
I'm from the UK, not the US, so take this with as much salt as you think it needs. Note: I'm not a developer, I'm a sysadmin, and sysadmin salaries are generally lower in the UK.
There are two ways of looking at this: first, you look very seriously at moving on. Let's face it, if you can refuse this job your days at this place are likely numbered.
Second, you see it as an opportunity. I don't know about where you are but in the UK there is a very definite ceiling to how much you can earn without going into management. If you are already at or near this ceiling (and if money is important to you), this basically gives you a job with "manager" on your CV without all the hassle of looking for a new job and interviewing - at a time when the economy's not exactly doing that well.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:1, Insightful)
That's the only solution when management starts to rot. Offshoring/outsourcing/contracting will bring lots of shit that lower management will have to deal with.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:1, Insightful)
Better yet, screw them how they screwed you.
Accept the position, and then the first time they call you in after hours, tell them "Sorry, I quit. You should have paid me more to be on call!"
Re:You can't say NO (Score:3, Insightful)
Seeing as I'm an American subcontractor & the company (major US cable co.) that has contracted us for clean up & design after being screwed over by Indian subcontractors says we are doing a great job, I'd have to say in our case, yes. BTW, I forgot to mention earlier, I'm not a programmer & the subcontractor I work for has been in business for well over 25 years.
I'll third it (Score:3, Insightful)
I hated management, and was bad at it. The people under me suffered. Not because I was a mean person, or power hungry, just because I was bad at it. I moved jobs to a technical role and love my job again. If I were you, I would start looking immediately. Good luck.
Lacking parameters (Score:4, Insightful)
Hi,
for a detailed advice, there are too many parameters missing. So i have to stay on the general track:
1. Your wording seems to indicate you don't have a choice. The question would have been asked a different way if you had one.
2. My personal opinion: Every technical guy should try management at least once. Even if you hate the job, you may learn a lot of things that may help you in your relationship with future bosses.
3. Management is an ungrateful job: You can do everything for you subordinates, they will not thank it. If you stay in management, your job satisfaction must have a different source.
4. If you find not be suited to the job: Pull the plug yourself. Don't wait for anyone else to do it. The damage from the later one outweighs the salary from a weeks or months.
Have fun, Martin
P.S. My path was: Programmer -> Consultant -> Director -> CEO -> Sales. While i loved every technical aspects of the first two jobs, nothing beats sales. Being a sales guy with a heavy technical background is like being armed with an M16 on a medieval battlefield.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:3, Insightful)
Or just don't answer the phone, and say the battery died or you were out of range or something.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:2, Insightful)
Well, technically no. The thing is it's no worse than what you'd buy here at the same cheap rate, it's just a lot easier to find big teams for that cheap of rates over there. 10$ may go a lot further in India than the US (for now) but 10$/hour code is 10$/hour code no matter what country you buy it from and it will *always* bite you in the ass over the long run. Plus dealing with Indians often means a language barrier plus timezone issues. The Indians that are *really* good programmers and have a decent grasp of English mostly get an H1B visa and move here so they can make real money doing their job.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:3, Insightful)
Alienating anyone in the field is a very bad idea, because it WILL come back to bite you eventually, and you never know who might prove useful down the line.
If what you are saying is true, please explain then, why do companies feel free to alienate workers en masse?
Their are lots of reasons, but one important thing to consider is the people in the company are not the company. The individuals may or may not agree with the decisions made; leaving them on good terms is what you really are doing.
Just say "no" to dumbasses (Score:5, Insightful)
Tell them "no", and turn the job down. If they fire you, start your own consulting business.
"Management" is code for "You're responsible when things go wrong" and "On call" is code for "We own you and every molecule of your time." If this is a high profile job, you won't be able to go on vacation or leave town without arranging for coverage, which means that all the major holidays and nice weekends just vanished off your plate.
In fact, as long as I'm on a roll here, "No" is the most valuable word an employee has. Once they know you'll take a stand and won't be a doormat, they'll respect you and will think twice before trying to get you to clean up somebody else's mess. They may also fire you, but the job sucks anyway, so you haven't lost anything.
"We need you to work this weekend."
"No. I don't work weekends"
"We need you to take over this doomed project"
"Sorry, I don't accept projects with little chance of success."
Your life can only suck as much as you're willing to allow it to.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:4, Insightful)
Indian work was of higher quality 2000-2003. Since then it's dropped. The biggest issue is not the quality of the work, or the intelligence of the indian contractors but in their inability to say "no" to an unrealistic estimate. But the quality has dropped as a result of meeting unrealistic estimates. (If you put it into production with bugs... then you made your deadline.. and get *another* contract to fix the bugs).
My suspicion is that in 2000-2003, we had a lot of masters degree candidates but now they have been bid up and we are getting bachelor's degree types. Still smart, but before they were clearly more intelligent than I was. We had some back then who could walk in the door and learn everything in a very short time and begin working much faster than american candidates. But they are all gone now. The few who remain are now project managers or higher. I suppose the rest are elsewhere.
The biggest hole I've seen is that three different american groups ( and by that I mean russians, americans, philipinos, etc. who had all been here for a decade ) indicated a huge project was risky and huge. The indians just said, "yes we'll do it". The executives haven't been able to drop this huge black hole off of the status reports yet but it is clear that we spewed a ton of cash on this waste of a project (which will never see production).
Re:You can't say NO (Score:3, Insightful)
The thing is the only thing overseas sub-contracting has to offer are lower costs. So it makes sense that the overseas companies will "optimize" everything for cost, this implies the cheapest labour you can get. This probably works "acceptably" for a level 1 call centre, not so much for knowledge workers.
By the same token, I've never seen a small .us contracting company primarily optimize for cost (they may exist, and I just haven't worked with/for them).
Re:Just say "no" to dumbasses (Score:3, Insightful)
As long as you think like that, you'll always be a doormat.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:5, Insightful)
This is based on my limited experience, take it for what it's worth.
There are a lot of very good technical people in India. There's a horde of very cheap technical people in India. I, personally, have noticed no overlap.
It's really hard to judge the quality of subcontractors, particularly at intercontinental distances, until you've worked with them a while. Since the drive to outsource is usually to cut costs, there's a tendency to go low on prices, which pretty much guarantees getting low-end people. I don't know that good US people are any better than good Indian people, but there is a difference between low-end US and low-end Indian.
Of course, once the bad news comes in, managerial reputations are on the line, competent locals have been laid off, perhaps office space has been reallocated, and even if the absolute best thing to do would be to hire back the locals and dump the Indians it's not going to happen fast. Even moving to a better quality of Indian techie will be difficult.
Re:You can't say NO (Score:2, Insightful)
I don't know that good US people are any better than good Indian people,
That is all anyone considering outsourcing has to understand. Just that one little fact. Fast, cheap, good, pick any two.